Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Matthias Kerzel <MKerzel@***.COM>
Subject: Initiative and damage
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:05:47 EST
An incident in our last gaming session made me think about something:

My Character, mainly a mercenary, got wired reflexes II, which make him
*quite* fast. But being fast isn't everything. And in a hard battle (ok, it
wasn't that hard, but as a merc and he'll tell you that is was damn hard.)
he was seriously wounded. He went down and could just scream "s**t".
But when initiative for the next round was rolled he somehow got the
first action. (ok I rolled 4,5,6). I think it is quite unrealistic, that a
heavily
wounded person is still that fast.

For a character with wired II a -3 on initiative is still quite nasty, but he
is still Faster, with a capital F, than any normal person in top health.

Ok, you will all scream "cyber-damage". And yes, this would work.
But there are more ways to enhance initiative than just cyber, for
example magic. The point is that I think the negative modifiers damage
applies to initiative should rise if the person has a better initiative.

May the given modifiers should be applied for each dice rolled for
initiative (this was several loopholes). Or may be the level of the
initiative enhancements could be lowered through the damage.

What do you think about this?

- Matthias
Message no. 2
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:25:21 +0000
*snip: Merc with WRII acts faster than anyone else even though he has
a serious wound and only screams S**T!! at top of his lungs*
> What do you think about this?
>
> - Matthias

Well, considering his activity, he only screams before anyone gets to
put him out of their misery.:)

Ok, ok.

Seriously, I do not have much of a problem with that. While he still
gets to act fairly quickly, his actions are severely penalized. So
much so, I think it is enough. Any method of reducing initiative
might have to be fairly extensive in order to work for both boosted,
wired, synaptically accelerated, increased etc. reflexes, as they all
offer fairly large differences in how base reaction and number of
dice is distributed. (A simple 'reduce effective level of boosting by
one per damage level' might work, though. But I'm not sure it'd be
necessary.).


--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 3
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:09:00 -0500
On Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 06:25:21PM +0000, Fade wrote:
> *snip: Merc with WRII acts faster than anyone else even though he has
> a serious wound and only screams S**T!! at top of his lungs*
> > What do you think about this?
> >
> > - Matthias
>
> Well, considering his activity, he only screams before anyone gets to
> put him out of their misery.:)
>
> Ok, ok.
>
> Seriously, I do not have much of a problem with that. While he still
> gets to act fairly quickly, his actions are severely penalized. So
> much so, I think it is enough. Any method of reducing initiative
> might have to be fairly extensive in order to work for both boosted,
> wired, synaptically accelerated, increased etc. reflexes, as they all
> offer fairly large differences in how base reaction and number of
> dice is distributed. (A simple 'reduce effective level of boosting by
> one per damage level' might work, though. But I'm not sure it'd be
> necessary.).
>
>
guys, your also forgetting the various modifiers to shooting, resisting,
etc, because he's injured. Yes he still reacts fast. But the wounds may
still make him miss. It seems to balance out when looking at the big
picture, not just init.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:34:47 -0700
Matthias Kerzel wrote:
/
[snip: cybered person still acting first after being wounded]
/
/ I think it is quite unrealistic, that a
/ heavily
/ wounded person is still that fast.

To me, it's a matter of flavor. IMO wired character are supposed to
be *fast*. They sit around on a lazy Sunday afternoon and count the beats
of a butterfly's wings and count the drops of water splashing from a
fountain in the park.

When they're in combat they scream through their opponents like a
buzz saw on speed.

But that's just my view :)

/ May the given modifiers should be applied for each dice rolled for
/ initiative (this was several loopholes). Or may be the level of the
/ initiative enhancements could be lowered through the damage.

If you want to alter it for your game I'd suggest applying the wound
modifier to Reaction and Initiative Dice (minimum of 1 for both). So
if a character with wired II (8 + 3d6) suffers from a moderate wound
his Reaction is reduced by 2 (to 6) and the number of initiative dice
he rolls is also reduced by 2 (to 1). If his damage was increased to
Serious his Reaction would drop to 5, but he would still get to roll
1 die for initiative.

Whether or not you want to continue to apply the wound modifier to
successes tests is up to you.

-David
--
"Laugh and grow strong."
- St. Ignatius of Loyola
--
ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 5
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:39:09 PST
>An incident in our last gaming session made me think about something:
>
>My Character was seriously wounded. He went down and could just scream
"s**t".
>

Just why was he "down and could just scream"?
Do you mean he failed a knock down test? (stopping and knockdown)
Could he not stand up? (willpower 2 test, injury mods aply, p.81)
Would either have affected your fighting?

By the rules, a serious wound doesn't really stop you from fighting. If
you chose to rollplay its effects, Bravo- that makes you the equal of
proffesional level 3 NPC's, though (pc's are assumed level 4, fight till
drop), so FASA obviously EXPECTS people to fight with serious wounds.
Unrealistic, yeah, probaly so.
Just a question, and unrelated to intiative.

>But when initiative for the next round was rolled he somehow got the
first action. (ok I rolled 4,5,6). I think it is quite unrealistic, that
a heavily wounded person is still that fast.
>

Wounds wouldn't, IMO, much affect your ability to pull a trigger quicky
or swing a sword suddenly, or take other "intitative" actions. They
WOULD affectthe quality of those actions, which the wound mods reflect
pretty well (until you start tossing in multiple karma re-rolls).

OTOH, wounds should almost always affect movement unless minor or very
localized, which they don't in SR.
Maybe its just that most wounds I've recieved were bicycle and vehicle
impacts of the contusion, concusion, and abrasion variety. Its VERY
hard to run after those kinds of injuries. Then again, I don't see a
guy with a belly shot running, either.

>For a character with wired II, a -3 on initiative is still quite nasty,
but he is still Faster, with a capital F, than any normal person in top
health.
>

Adrenaline still works very well on wounded people (a little to well,
sometimes- they keep going past bodily limits). Wired reflexes is in
large part based on adrenal stimulation.

<snip suggestions of penalty to every die rolled or loss of dice>


Using the normal SR2 system, applying the injury modifier to evey die
might cause odd results. What if, instead of 4,5,6, your character
rolled 1,2,3? That would be -3 to intitive, worse than he could
possibly do with one die. I've rolled 1,1,2,2 with wired 3 and a
serious wound- subtracting 12 from intitive would have been adding
insult to injury! (pardon the pun)
This isn't really a strike against doing so- Its still unlikely you'll
be worse off, and if you are, well, maybe your cyber is reacting badly
to the wound (which is cool, because its a non-permant cyberdamage type
effect.)
I'd suggest doing that rather than removing dice from intitive, which is
more granular, and likey to totally remove the bonus from folk with
things like wired 1, or involve some new charts (yech).

If the full penalty per die is to stiff, you could decrease the penalty
be 1 per extra die. (serous with wired2 would be -3, -2, -1, for total
-6)
This would make it possible for folks with wired 3 to actually roll
above zero when they have a serious stun AND a serious physical, instead
of rolling at -24. (they'd "only" have -18). This would be even more
important to those using spells, which DON'T boost reaction like wires
does.


<PLUG>

You might enjoy a little page I wrote up on various intiative related
house rules. Link is on:

http://concentric.net/~evamarie/wierd.htm

And also on Paolo's page in the rules section as "alternative intitative
idea".

It goes a little farther than just making wounds more annoying, but
there's enough guidlines that you might cook up something less extreme
but suitable for your game. Or you might be inspired to really cut back
speed, if you think somebody with wired 2 is "way to fast".

If you do adopt a solid houserule, please drop me a line mentioning how
(well / badly) it works. If you put it on the web, I'll put in another
link.




Mongoose/"Jack the sound barrier. Bring the noise." -Cyberdog
get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm

______________________________________________________
Join the legion of Bill Gates braindead zombie slaves:



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 6
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:58:54 +0000
Lehlan wrote
>
> guys, your also forgetting the various modifiers to shooting, resisting,
> etc, because he's injured. Yes he still reacts fast. But the wounds may
> still make him miss. It seems to balance out when looking at the big
> picture, not just init.

I thought I said that? Well, okay, if I didn't, I agree completely.
I do if I did, too, except that you do not get damage penalties to
resistance rolls.





--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 7
From: --Odd-- <mikes@*****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:51:20 +0200
>May the given modifiers should be applied for each dice rolled for
>initiative (this was several loopholes). Or may be the level of the
>initiative enhancements could be lowered through the damage.
>
>What do you think about this?


We altered our damage for Physical to 1,3,5 respectively, while yes the
individual is still fast, a lot of damage is not really noticed until the
adrenaline wears off and thus to a degree damage is ignored... my 0.02

--Odd--
Message no. 8
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:13:46 -0500
On Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 10:58:54PM +0000, Fade wrote:
> Lehlan wrote
> >
> > guys, your also forgetting the various modifiers to shooting, resisting,
> > etc, because he's injured. Yes he still reacts fast. But the wounds may
> > still make him miss. It seems to balance out when looking at the big
> > picture, not just init.
>
> I thought I said that? Well, okay, if I didn't, I agree completely.
> I do if I did, too, except that you do not get damage penalties to
> resistance rolls.
>
True. (Maybe you did, skimming long messages isn't always a good thing).
So far, players seem to be penalized more the enough for high wound
levels. (Which is why pain resistance is wonderful).
I'm just thinking if it works, and isn't broken, why tinker with it.
(There's more then enough things that are broken. :))
Hmm...wonder if their going to change any of this type of thing in SR3?
:)

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 9
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:52:45 +0100
Lehlan wrote:
>Hmm...wonder if their going to change any of this type of thing in SR3?

What I hope they change is the level of abstraction. The great thing about
shadowrun is the way it handles very complex problems abstractly and in a
working manner. (Integrating both firearms, unarmed combat, armed combat and
magic in a framework that works as seamlessly as this .. no, you don't see
that every day.). If they managed to make rigging and decking equally
streamlined, integrated and simple... I'd like that. Rigging is way too
complex, with numerous EW tracks and whatnot, decking relies on too many
different programs. The level of abstraction should be uniform, not highly
variable, like it is now. I really hope they don't resort to numerous combat
tables or overcomplicating things.

Well, that's my wishlist.
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:57:36 -0700
Rune Fostervoll wrote:
/
/ Lehlan wrote:
/ >Hmm...wonder if their going to change any of this type of thing in SR3?
/
/ What I hope they change is the level of abstraction. The great thing about
/ shadowrun is the way it handles very complex problems abstractly and in a
/ working manner. (Integrating both firearms, unarmed combat, armed combat and
/ magic in a framework that works as seamlessly as this .. no, you don't see
/ that every day.). If they managed to make rigging and decking equally
/ streamlined, integrated and simple... I'd like that. Rigging is way too
/ complex, with numerous EW tracks and whatnot

IMHO the EW rules should have been in an optional rules section.
Throwing *everything* at me in one chapter put me off. No offense
Jon :)

VR2 suffers from the same problem. Ultimately I'd like to see the
decking rules written in sections as follows: the basics (basic deck,
programs, and system design), Green systems (basic defenses), Blue
systems (a little more), Orange Systems (hello Grey IC), Red systems
(hello Black), and finally optional rules (advanced decks and
programs, VR systems, etc).

FASA's writers are great, but the editors need to work on arranging
it all, IMHO.

/ The level of abstraction should be uniform, not highly
/ variable, like it is now. I really hope they don't resort to numerous combat
/ tables or overcomplicating things.

I've tried to come up with a different system for decking, but it ain't
easy. VR2 went a long way towards that end. But, like I said, it crams a
lot of information at once. I'd suggest limiting characters (and your own
systems) at first. Grow into it and don't try to do everything at once.
Ditto for R2. Don't let a character make an EW Plane from hell and don't
use all those high tech weapons against him. Start off with something
simple (like a souped up VW with a little body armor).

-David
--
"Laugh and grow strong."
- St. Ignatius of Loyola
--
ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 11
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:06:51 -0500
On Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 05:52:45PM +0100, Rune Fostervoll wrote:
> Lehlan wrote:
> >Hmm...wonder if their going to change any of this type of thing in SR3?
>
> What I hope they change is the level of abstraction. The great thing about
> shadowrun is the way it handles very complex problems abstractly and in a
> working manner. (Integrating both firearms, unarmed combat, armed combat and
> magic in a framework that works as seamlessly as this .. no, you don't see
> that every day.). If they managed to make rigging and decking equally
> streamlined, integrated and simple... I'd like that. Rigging is way too
> complex, with numerous EW tracks and whatnot, decking relies on too many
> different programs. The level of abstraction should be uniform, not highly
> variable, like it is now. I really hope they don't resort to numerous combat
> tables or overcomplicating things.
>
> Well, that's my wishlist.
I'll back you on this one, but I don't see how. Not without radically
changing things. Rigging works fairly well (under the new R2 stuff) once
you get used to it. Deckers, well unless you have a team of them, its
much easier to run their adventures seperate, or use NPC's.
(Although some of my guys, have enjoyed tagging along on hitcher
jacks etc).
Overall I'm happy and have been happy with the system. I hope they just
clarify things we've had house rules about, and not radically alter
things.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 12
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and damage
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:12:40 -0500
On Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:57:36AM -0700, David Buehrer wrote:
> Rune Fostervoll wrote:
> /
> / Lehlan wrote:
> / >Hmm...wonder if their going to change any of this type of thing in SR3?
> /
> / What I hope they change is the level of abstraction. The great thing about
> / shadowrun is the way it handles very complex problems abstractly and in a
> / working manner. (Integrating both firearms, unarmed combat, armed combat and
> / magic in a framework that works as seamlessly as this .. no, you don't see
> / that every day.). If they managed to make rigging and decking equally
> / streamlined, integrated and simple... I'd like that. Rigging is way too
> / complex, with numerous EW tracks and whatnot
>
> IMHO the EW rules should have been in an optional rules section.
> Throwing *everything* at me in one chapter put me off. No offense
> Jon :)
>
> VR2 suffers from the same problem. Ultimately I'd like to see the
> decking rules written in sections as follows: the basics (basic deck,
> programs, and system design), Green systems (basic defenses), Blue
> systems (a little more), Orange Systems (hello Grey IC), Red systems
> (hello Black), and finally optional rules (advanced decks and
> programs, VR systems, etc).
>
> FASA's writers are great, but the editors need to work on arranging
> it all, IMHO.
>
> / The level of abstraction should be uniform, not highly
> / variable, like it is now. I really hope they don't resort to numerous combat
> / tables or overcomplicating things.
>
> I've tried to come up with a different system for decking, but it ain't
> easy. VR2 went a long way towards that end. But, like I said, it crams a
> lot of information at once. I'd suggest limiting characters (and your own
> systems) at first. Grow into it and don't try to do everything at once.
> Ditto for R2. Don't let a character make an EW Plane from hell and don't
> use all those high tech weapons against him. Start off with something
> simple (like a souped up VW with a little body armor).
>
This is true. Editing in reason days has gone down hill. (Although
CyberPirates was pretty well done).
As with all the rules, start with the basics and work up. At least
VR2 had tables in the back. That helps immensley. R2 didn't and
I along with quite a few others, had to go do it by hand. Once
you have those (and a couple of flow charts), it just takes some
practice.
I'm still (im)patiently waiting for Fasa to publish the R2 errata that
Jon mentioned awhile back.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Initiative and damage, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!