Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: John Toth <jtoth@*****.COM>
Subject: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:38:26 -0500
Newbie here with a question on Melee Combat.

Does initiative work with Melee Combat the same way as Ranged Combat? I
read the book, and in the 'RESOLVING MELEE COMBAT' there in no mention of
it in the entire section. If so, a Samie (with wired reflexes 2) is
fighting someone (who is straight meat) in HTH: how does it go? Does the
Sami (attacker) just spank him until his (defender) initiative rolls around
so he can defend himself in opposed rolls? Or does the defender roll every
time he is attacked, even though his Initiative is lower (way Lower).
Thanks


John :]
Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:01:25 -0700
John Toth wrote:
|
| Newbie here with a question on Melee Combat.

Howdy :)

| Does initiative work with Melee Combat the same way as Ranged Combat? I
| read the book, and in the 'RESOLVING MELEE COMBAT' there in no mention of
| it in the entire section. If so, a Samie (with wired reflexes 2) is
| fighting someone (who is straight meat) in HTH: how does it go? Does the
| Sami (attacker) just spank him until his (defender) initiative rolls around
| so he can defend himself in opposed rolls? Or does the defender roll every
| time he is attacked, even though his Initiative is lower (way Lower).
| Thanks

Yep, initiative is determined the same no matter what type
of attack a character uses. For example if a Sam ends up
with an initiative of 23 for the first round, then on phase
23 he can either attack with a pistol (or whatever), or he
can attack in melee.

If a person is the target of a melee attack he can counter
attack, no matter what his initiative is (exception, if the
target us suprised he can't counter attack). Counter
attacking does not cost an action (you can counter attack
as much as you want). So, if a Sam with wired reflexes and
moderate melee skill goes after a Physad with low reflexes,
but a high skill level, the Sam will probably get dropped.

In melee you gotta be good.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 3
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 21:40:53 EST
On Mon, 17 Feb 1997 20:38:26 -0500 John Toth <jtoth@*****.COM> writes:
>Newbie here with a question on Melee Combat.

Thwap the newbie! Thwap the newbie!


>
>Does initiative work with Melee Combat the same way as Ranged Combat?
>I
>read the book, and in the 'RESOLVING MELEE COMBAT' there in no mention
>of
>it in the entire section. If so, a Samie (with wired reflexes 2) is
>fighting someone (who is straight meat) in HTH: how does it go? Does
>the
>Sami (attacker) just spank him until his (defender) initiative rolls
>around
>so he can defend himself in opposed rolls? Or does the defender roll
>every
>time he is attacked, even though his Initiative is lower (way Lower).
>Thanks
>
BTB, Melee combat (whether armed or unarmed) is an opposed test, that is,
both parties roll their dice against appropriate target numbers, and the
one with the most successes wins. The realism of this approach has been
debated around here at least once, but I offer no opinion upon that
(realism vs simplicity...)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 4
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 15:55:28 +1100
On Mon, 17 Feb 1997, John Toth wrote:

> Newbie here with a question on Melee Combat.

Greetings and welcome,

> Does initiative work with Melee Combat the same way as Ranged Combat? I
> read the book, and in the 'RESOLVING MELEE COMBAT' there in no mention of
> it in the entire section. If so, a Samie (with wired reflexes 2) is
> fighting someone (who is straight meat) in HTH: how does it go? Does the
> Sami (attacker) just spank him until his (defender) initiative rolls around
> so he can defend himself in opposed rolls? Or does the defender roll every
> time he is attacked, even though his Initiative is lower (way Lower).

You know, at the moment with Uni starting and everything, I haven't
really had time to respond to the mailing-list, but since this is a
question I've wrestled with mentally for oh so long, I thought I might
honour you (note the Brit. spelling, my US friends) with a response.

The answer to your question and internal turmoil is: combat pool.

Need an explanation? Think about it. The guy with the higher init. gets
to roll his skill in unarmed or whatever, plus part or all of his combat
pool each time he gets an action.

The slow guy can use his combat pool, but it won't refresh until his next
action, so he's worried about dodging bullets etc etc with his combat
pool until his next action.

Hence, we use an example. Fastguy has Unarmed 3 and an Init result of 24.
He also has a combat pool of 8. Slowsnail has unarmed 5 (note it is
higher than Fastguy's) and an Init result of 11. He has a combat pool of
8 as well why not.

At combat phase 24, Fastguy attacks Slowsnail with a multitude of wild
flaying kicks. Opposed test: Fastguy, the confident guy, uses 3+8(combat
pool) of his die to give 11 dice to play with. Slowsnail, Mr.
Conservative, uses 5+6 dice (in case he gets shot at in the meantime).
Even match.
Next time, at combat phase 14, only Fastguy's combat pool refreshes. So
again, opposed test: Fastguy uses 3+6 die. Slowsnail uses 5+2 (he has
only 2 die left!). Hence, it's 9 vs 7 die! The faster guy will probably win.

Let us also not forget that the guy with the faster reflexes has almost
definitely got a higher combat pool as well because of what they derive from.

That's all from me, I almost began to go on, and on, and on...
<Self-thwap>
Woops!

Shaman

_________________________________________________________
In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
In Neo-Arch Real Life: Shaman

Neurological problems 101:
Kluver-Bucy Syndrome.
Occurs with the bilateral removal of the temporal lobe,
including amygdala.
Symptoms: Overattentiveness, hyperorality, psychic
blindness, hypersexuality, absense of emotional response.
_________________________________________________________
Message no. 5
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:04:56 +1100
A good general explanation, calvin, but...

> flaying kicks. Opposed test: Fastguy, the confident guy, uses 3+8(combat

<THWAP!!!>

A skill of 3 and he gets to use 8 combat pool? What game you playin',
boy?

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
-----------------------------------------------
Remember, no matter what they say, you can
never have enough sugar. - Michael
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 6
From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:07:14 -0500
Point to the lovevy Lady, although I think his essay in its entirety
held up well enough. :-)

Say what you will, how you will, when you will. Free speech is a right, not a privelege.
Message no. 7
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:58:16 +1100
On Tue, 18 Feb 1997, Lady Jestyr wrote:

> A good general explanation, calvin, but...
>
> > flaying kicks. Opposed test: Fastguy, the confident guy, uses 3+8(combat
>
> <THWAP!!!>
>
> A skill of 3 and he gets to use 8 combat pool? What game you playin',
> boy?

I don't know! I'm so confused! I just made up the numbers on the spot.

Shaman
PS. I think it was Bull, but can someone post me the 1000 year old carp,
I've misplaced mine and I can't track it down despite its odiferous hide.


_________________________________________________________
In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
In Neo-Arch Real Life: Shaman

Neurological problems 101:
Kluver-Bucy Syndrome.
Occurs with the bilateral removal of the temporal lobe,
including amygdala.
Symptoms: Overattentiveness, hyperorality, psychic
blindness, hypersexuality, absense of emotional response.
_________________________________________________________
Message no. 8
From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:59:21 -0500
Burp!... Oh sorry, was that your carp?

--------------------------------------------------------Say what you will, how you will,
when you will. Free speech is a right, not a privelege.
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:02:14 +1100
On Tue, 18 Feb 1997, Shawn Baumgartner wrote:

> Burp!... Oh sorry, was that your carp?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------Say what you will, how you
will, when you will. Free speech is a right, not a privelege.
> --------------------------------------------------------

You had better adjust your sig. It's kind of screwed up. Justify it, my man!

Shaman-who-can't-remember-which-name-to-use-to-sign-off.



>

_________________________________________________________
In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
In Neo-Arch Real Life: Shaman

Neurological problems 101:
Kluver-Bucy Syndrome.
Occurs with the bilateral removal of the temporal lobe,
including amygdala.
Symptoms: Overattentiveness, hyperorality, psychic
blindness, hypersexuality, absense of emotional response.
_________________________________________________________
Message no. 10
From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 01:03:42 -0500
I've never justified a damn thing in me life! (Maybe that'd explain the
prison term. Hmm...)

--------------------------------------------------------Say what you will, how you will,
when you will. Free speech is a right, not a privelege.
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:07:59 +1100
> PS. I think it was Bull, but can someone post me the 1000 year old carp,
> I've misplaced mine and I can't track it down despite its odiferous hide.

Not a problem, I just put it in the post.

Oh wait, you meant a virtual carp, by email? Sorry. <snigger> Don't be
surprised if your postman refuses to talk to you ever again, though...

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
-----------------------------------------------
Remember, no matter what they say, you can
never have enough sugar. - Michael
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:30:45 +0100
John Toth said on 20:38/17 Feb 97...

> Newbie here with a question on Melee Combat.

*FX: warning lights flashing, sirens*

:)

Welcome to the list...

> Does initiative work with Melee Combat the same way as Ranged Combat? I
> read the book, and in the 'RESOLVING MELEE COMBAT' there in no mention of
> it in the entire section. If so, a Samie (with wired reflexes 2) is
> fighting someone (who is straight meat) in HTH: how does it go? Does the
> Sami (attacker) just spank him until his (defender) initiative rolls around
> so he can defend himself in opposed rolls? Or does the defender roll every
> time he is attacked, even though his Initiative is lower (way Lower).

All hand-to-hand combat is done by opposed tests -- both attacker and
defender roll against a TN 4+situational modifiers, and whoever gets the
most successes hits the other (ties go to the attacker).

For example, if a sam at initiative 20 hits a pedestrian (initiative 4),
both the samurai and the pedestrian get to roll their skill dice. If, by
some miracle, the sam gets no successes and the pedestrian gets 1, the
sam must resist (str)M Stun damage even though he was the one who
initiated the melee.

Some people use a house rule that says you can only defend when attacked,
so if the pedestrian had more successes he simply wouldn't take damage
rather than hit the same back.

Another house rule that seems to be somewhat common is to charge the
defender a Free Action to counter-attack. That way, he can only defend
against one attacker each Combat Phase, and only after he's had his first
action in the turn. This makes ganging up on a target more lucrative,
because the target can't dodge or defend against all incoming attacks.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oh, paradise... on my TV...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:39:44 GMT
John Toth writes
>
> Does initiative work with Melee Combat the same way as Ranged Combat?
This has been pretty thoroughly thrashed out before, with a net
result of disagreement.

> I
> read the book, and in the 'RESOLVING MELEE COMBAT' there in no mention of
> it in the entire section. If so, a Samie (with wired reflexes 2) is
> fighting someone (who is straight meat) in HTH: how does it go? Does the
> Sami (attacker) just spank him until his (defender) initiative rolls around
> so he can defend himself in opposed rolls? Or does the defender roll every
> time he is attacked, even though his Initiative is lower (way Lower).
> Thanks
>
By the book defending yourself in melee is free, no need for an
action, as long as you know its comming you can counter attack
regardless of initiative.
The big advantage of being faster is if you can get 2 goes in before
the slow guy, the first one will draw him off (burn his combat pool),
and the second when your combat pool refreshes and his doesn't will
whip him senseless as you 'go straight through his now open guard'.
The other place it helps is if suprise situations occur, the guy with
the higher reac had a huge advantage, achieve full suprise and the
target has to stand there and soak, no counter attacks, no combat
pool dodge no nothing, the result is obvious!

Yes there is a problem in that if the faster guy wins by 1 to 9 he
attacks, both spend combat pool and then the slower guys pool
refreshes first. No easy solution to this one.

Draws go in favour of the attacker, which does help quite a bit.

There is no need for charging free actions to defend (note you get
one of these at EVERY initative after you start acting) for multiple
opponents as the +/-1 for multiple enemies is a real killer rule.

Mark
Message no. 14
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:16:29 -0500
Shawn Baumgartner enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>I've never justified a damn thing in me life! (Maybe that'd explain the
>prison term. Hmm...)

He meant get it lined up correctly. (In case you aren't being sarcastic)
Look what your sig looks like:
>
>--------------------------------------------------------Say what you will,
how you will, when you will. Free speech is a right, not a privelege.
>--------------------------------------------------------

Also, PLEASE quote SOMETHING of what you are replying to. Responses can get
muddled over the Net, so we aren't going to be able to figure out what you
are refering to.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:35:58 -0700
Gurth wrote:
|
| Some people use a house rule that says you can only defend when attacked,
| so if the pedestrian had more successes he simply wouldn't take damage
| rather than hit the same back.
|
| Another house rule that seems to be somewhat common is to charge the
| defender a Free Action to counter-attack. That way, he can only defend
| against one attacker each Combat Phase, and only after he's had his first
| action in the turn. This makes ganging up on a target more lucrative,
| because the target can't dodge or defend against all incoming attacks.

I use the first option. I was going to use the second
option too, but figured that that would by somewhat
hypocritical (if you're spending actions, you should be
able to counter-attack). IMHO, use on option or the other,
not both (if you're going to use them, that is :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 16
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:38:31 +0000
> From: John Toth <jtoth@*****.COM>
> Subject: Initiative and Melee CBT

> so he can defend himself in opposed rolls? Or does the defender roll every
> time he is attacked, even though his Initiative is lower (way Lower).

I stick with the 1st ed rules and make them use their combat (was
defense) pool to counter attack.


--Droopy

droopy@**.net
Message no. 17
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:19:49 +1100
On Tue, 18 Feb 1997, Lady Jestyr wrote:

> > PS. I think it was Bull, but can someone post me the 1000 year old carp,
> > I've misplaced mine and I can't track it down despite its odiferous hide.
>
> Not a problem, I just put it in the post.
>
> Oh wait, you meant a virtual carp, by email? Sorry. <snigger> Don't be
> surprised if your postman refuses to talk to you ever again, though...

LOL!

Shaman
_________________________________________________________
In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
In Neo-Arch Real Life: Shaman

Neurological problems 101:
Kluver-Bucy Syndrome.
Occurs with the bilateral removal of the temporal lobe,
including amygdala.
Symptoms: Overattentiveness, hyperorality, psychic
blindness, hypersexuality, absense of emotional response.
_________________________________________________________
Message no. 18
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Initiative and Melee CBT
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:54:29 EST
On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 15:55:28 +1100 Calvin Hsieh
<u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU> writes:
<snip>
>The answer to your question and internal turmoil is: combat pool.
<snip>
>Hence, we use an example. Fastguy has Unarmed 3 and an Init result of
>24.
>He also has a combat pool of 8. Slowsnail has unarmed 5 (note it is
>higher than Fastguy's) and an Init result of 11. He has a combat pool
>of
>8 as well why not.
>
>At combat phase 24, Fastguy attacks Slowsnail with a multitude of wild
>flaying kicks. Opposed test: Fastguy, the confident guy, uses
>3+8(combat
>pool) of his die to give 11 dice to play with. Slowsnail, Mr.
>Conservative, uses 5+6 dice (in case he gets shot at in the meantime).
>Even match.
>Next time, at combat phase 14, only Fastguy's combat pool refreshes.
>So
>again, opposed test: Fastguy uses 3+6 die. Slowsnail uses 5+2 (he has
>only 2 die left!). Hence, it's 9 vs 7 die! The faster guy will
>probably win.

Actually, Fastguy doesn't get access to his entire combat pool: As I
recall, he only gets dice up to his unarmed (or whatever combat skill is
in use at the time) combat...he'd be able to roll a max of six dice in an
un armed combat test...Slowsnail has up to ten...


>
>Let us also not forget that the guy with the faster reflexes has
>almost
>definitely got a higher combat pool as well because of what they
>derive from.

Not necessarily...two guys with stats identical except that one also has
Wired 3 will have identical combat pools...the one with Wired 3 just
refreshes it more often (maybe that's what you meant, but increasing
Reaction doesn't necessarily increase Combat Pool)


--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Initiative and Melee CBT, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!