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Message no. 1
From: Francois 'Fu' Uldry <ULDRY@***.UNIGE.CH>
Subject: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:51:26 WET-DST
Hi !
just my 2 cents I thought that :
take a vampire chrome it up before you bite it and you've got
a vampire with a level 3 wired reflexes... it gives :
Re+6 initi+3d6+1d6 (due to the fact the vampire has got a * over its R)...
whadayathink about that ??? remember it's just for NPCs...
Fu.
Message no. 2
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:57:55 +1000
Fu writes:

> take a vampire chrome it up before you bite it and you've got
> a vampire with a level 3 wired reflexes... it gives :
> Re+6 initi+3d6+1d6 (due to the fact the vampire has got a * over its R)...
> whadayathink about that ??? remember it's just for NPCs...

Kills the old adage about "4d6 _MAXIMUM_" initive dice doesn't it. :-)

Time to create that razorguy/vampire NPC I think, that'll teach these sammi's
they aren't the fastest thing this side of Venus...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 3
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:52:21 -0400
>>>>> "Francois" == Francois 'Fu' Uldry
<ULDRY@***.UNIGE.CH> writes:

Francois> Hi !
Francois> just my 2 cents I thought that :
Francois> take a vampire chrome it up before you bite it and you've got
Francois> a vampire with a level 3 wired reflexes...

There's a valid argument that the virus that causes vampirism and
regeneration causes a rather painful expulsion of cyberwear.

Francois> it gives :
Francois> Re+6 initi+3d6+1d6 (due to the fact the vampire has got a * over
Francois> its R)... whadayathink about that ??? remember it's just for
Francois> NPCs...

But remember that cyber boosts NATURAL reflexes/initiative. So if the vamp
could keep the cyber it'd work. Same for any other critter that gets wired
up.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|of skin.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 4
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:04:28 +1000
Rat writes:

> There's a valid argument that the virus that causes vampirism and
> regeneration causes a rather painful expulsion of cyberwear.

There's also a precedent set in one or two of the modules which goes against
that too. Theres a vampire or two who are cybered in something (I can't
remember what, sinse I don't own that particular module).

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 5
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:12:26 -0400
On Fri, 14 Oct 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> Fu writes: [stuff about a chromed vamp having 3D6 + 1D6 on initiative]

> Kills the old adage about "4d6 _MAXIMUM_" initive dice doesn't it. :-)
>
> Time to create that razorguy/vampire NPC I think, that'll teach these sammi's
> they aren't the fastest thing this side of Venus...

Sorry, but when multiple reflex enhancements apply, you take the
higher one. So basically, the first level of Wired Reflexes is redundant
in vampires. Otherwise you would see shapeshifters with Wired-3 rolling
like six dice for initiative, or something equally ridiculous.

Marc
Message no. 6
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 01:33:02 +1000
Marc writes:

> Sorry, but when multiple reflex enhancements apply, you take the
> higher one. So basically, the first level of Wired Reflexes is redundant
> in vampires. Otherwise you would see shapeshifters with Wired-3 rolling
> like six dice for initiative, or something equally ridiculous.

Well, the extra initive dice recieved by some creatures, such as vampires,
tigers, dragons etc is a natural inititive, not a reflex enhancement. The
creature power of "enhanced reflexes" (or whatever it is), would probably
count as enhanced inititive, and be subject to the rule you state, but the two
dice a vampire gets is the vampric equivalent of the one dice a human gets;
they are just naturally superior in reaction time, there's nothing enhanced
about it. I have a feeling a shapeshifter wouldn't ever get cybered, but I
can't back it up (I remember hearing/reading it someplace), as I have
forgotten the reasons. As for vampires though, or a cybered tiger or
something, I can't see why not. Give the old sammy a surprise when the guard
tiger reacted at 48 now wouldn't it :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 7
From: Joanna Goodhartz <JGOODHAR@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 20:09:57 -0400
>>
>>Rat writes:
>>
>> There's a valid argument that the virus that causes vampirism and
>> regeneration causes a rather painful expulsion of cyberwear.
>
>There's also a precedent set in one or two of the modules which goes against
>that too. Theres a vampire or two who are cybered in something (I can't
>remember what, sinse I don't own that particular module).

Then again, vampires are magically active creatures. If you want to take this
idea to PCs (instead of NPCs), NIghtWing's running around with 7+2d6, because
she's a phys ad. I gave her a point in increased reflexes. If she ever
initiates again, she might boost that again. If your vampire's a mage, let
him have a spell lock with increase reflexes - does the same thing (we have a
regular mage with it - he got sick of being slower than than the sammies).

Joanna
(.sig *still* in works :)
Message no. 8
From: John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 15:39:04 -0600
On Sat, 15 Oct 1994, MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

[ delete stuff about enhancement priority ]

> Well, the extra initive dice recieved by some creatures, such as vampires,
> tigers, dragons etc is a natural inititive, not a reflex enhancement. The
> creature power of "enhanced reflexes" (or whatever it is), would probably
> count as enhanced inititive, and be subject to the rule you state, but the two
> dice a vampire gets is the vampric equivalent of the one dice a human gets;
> they are just naturally superior in reaction time, there's nothing enhanced
> about it. I have a feeling a shapeshifter wouldn't ever get cybered, but I
> can't back it up (I remember hearing/reading it someplace), as I have
> forgotten the reasons. As for vampires though, or a cybered tiger or
> something, I can't see why not. Give the old sammy a surprise when the guard
> tiger reacted at 48 now wouldn't it :-)

Finally getting enough time to get into a thread...

Okay. Let's look at a Human with WR(3). That's four initiative dice,
being an average roll of 14, for those GMs who don't use the rule of
sixes on initiative. The maximum reaction of a Human is 6, plus three
levels in WR makes 12. That's an average initiative of 26. That's
pretty damn good, from a GM perspective. It also comes out to be a
minimum of 16, which is _still_ considerably better than maximum
uncybered Human Initiative, which is 12.

The point, through all this math babble, is that you don't really _need_
more than 4D6 initiative dice. 4D6 is _good_.

And for villians, I don't like having the villian be able to shoot each
member of the team four times before they even get a chance to go, but
then not do that and just toy with the team.

Anyway, just my two cents worth.

John IV aka John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geek Code 2.1
GM/S/O d H-(--) s+:+ !!g p0 au>+++ a18 w--(+) v+(*) C++++ US P? L- !3
E---- N- K W-- M+++ !V -po+ Y+>++ t++>+++@ 5-- j++@ R++>+++ G(''') tv
b+ D- B--- e+>+++ u--(+) h->++ f+ r---(*) n-(---) !y+
Message no. 9
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:27:10 +1000
John IV writes:

> And for villians, I don't like having the villian be able to shoot each
> member of the team four times before they even get a chance to go, but
> then not do that and just toy with the team.

But it is equally unfortunate when the runners all have four actions before
any of the opponents, and obliterate all your bad guys before they even get
to blink. It is preferable to have the enemies at about the same reaction
level as the runners (for the real villians), or lower for the grunt types.
The "special" opponents who are supposed to have some edge or other, on the
other hand...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 10
From: John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:45:06 -0600
MILLIKEN DAMION A wrote:

> But it is equally unfortunate when the runners all have four actions before
> any of the opponents, and obliterate all your bad guys before they even get
> to blink. It is preferable to have the enemies at about the same reaction
> level as the runners (for the real villians), or lower for the grunt types.
> The "special" opponents who are supposed to have some edge or other, on the
> other hand...

Thisis exactly my point. I was saying that over 4D6 is ridiculous for
anyone. And if you want to give your villians that extra edge, there are
plenty of ways to do it without giving them 16D6 Initiative.

John IV aka John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Geek Code 2.1
GM/S/O d H-(--) s+:+ !!g p0 au>+++ a18 w--(+) v+(*) C++++ US P? L- !3
E---- N- K W-- M+++ !V -po+ Y+>++ t++>+++@ 5-- j++@ R++>+++ G(''') tv
b+ D- B--- e+>+++ u--(+) h->++ f+ r---(*) n-(---) !y+
Message no. 11
From: Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 10:59:50 +0600
John's comment is certainly true...

Always remember...
Initiative don't mean doodly squat when the runners are caught
with their pants down, so to speak.

-Jeff
Message no. 12
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:13:06 -0700
The rule of six does NOT apply to initiative.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 13
From: Skrub <mccllstr@*****.BUCKNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 12:51:39 -0400
> The rule of six does NOT apply to initiative.

Where did you come up with this one? It most certainly does!

-Skrub
Message no. 14
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 13:01:02 -0400
>>>>> "Skrub" == Skrub <mccllstr@*****.BUCKNELL.EDU>
writes:

>> The rule of six does NOT apply to initiative.
Skrub> Where did you come up with this one? It most certainly does!

Well, for starters it's in the errata for the second edition. The
reasoning: the Rule of Six applies to success tests. Initiative is not a
success test, therefore it does not apply; ditto for the Rule of One.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> |Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox|which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 15
From: Micah Levy <M.Levy@**.UCL.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 18:37:08 +0100
The Rule of 6 DOES NOT apply with Initiative.
See Rolling Inititive in SR2 for further repitition of the above.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
||Micah Levy Department of Computer Science ||
|| University College London ||
||Web Page: http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/people/zcacma0.html ||
||Email: M.Levy@**.ucl.ac.uk Cestor@******.com ||
|| zcacma0@**.ucl.ac.uk Micah@******.com ||
|| GCS d--@ H s g+(-) p? au--(+)>++ a- w v++ C++++($) UV++(-) P- L- 3 E-||
|| N++ K W++ M+ V-- -po+ Y++ t+ 5-- jx R++ G+(----) tv b+++ D+ B--- e+ u- ||
|| h- f n+ y? ||
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Message no. 16
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 12:44:11 -0500
>> The rule of six does NOT apply to initiative.

>Where did you come up with this one? It most certainly does!

The rules, mostly. The rule of six applies to success tests only.
Initiative is not a success test. Besides that, if the rule of six applies, how
are you going to apply the rule of one? Fair's fair.

Matt
Message no. 17
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@***.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 17:26:30 -0500
> > The rule of six does NOT apply to initiative.
>
> Where did you come up with this one? It most certainly does!

It most certainly does NOT.

Look under initiative. It says this QUITE explicitly.

--
Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@***.uiuc.edu)
Message no. 18
From: Spellslinger <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 18:23:12 -0700
Our little party has oodles of karma in da bank, but we nearly got
totally hosed last week when be busted in on an Insect shaman and 4 guys
with APDS loaded asault rifles. Just to let you know we all have 3d6 or
4d6 init. They were all 2d6 and holding action.

Mike aka Spellslinger
Message no. 19
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:36:15 -0400
V

On Mon, 17 Oct 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> The rule of six does NOT apply to initiative.



I have to laugh at this. The first time I ever palyed shadowrun, we
applied the rule of six to initiative. All I kept thinking was "my God,
how many turns do these people get!" Combat took forever. I think the
module was Dreamchipper or the one that came with the screen...silver
something or other. Anyone else have interesting rule goofs?


Nigel
Message no. 20
From: "CHAPMAN, DANIEL LEE" <DANIELC@*****.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:57:21 EST
That depends, Chris. Exactly how much time do you have? My players are
always griping about the interpretation I make of some rule.
Message no. 21
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:37:30 -0400
> > The rule of six does NOT apply to initiative.
>
> I have to laugh at this. The first time I ever palyed shadowrun, we
> applied the rule of six to initiative. All I kept thinking was "my God,

Yeah, then multiple dice really rock. Have you ever seen a Sammie get
over a 100 initiative? (Well, playing first edition with only the
grimoire and the SSCatalog, one of ours did it) Needless to say, the main
villan, who also happened to be cybered to hell, got about 4 points higher
than the sammie. That combat was a NIGHTMARE.
Message no. 22
From: Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 15:34:18 +0100
>
> V
>
> On Mon, 17 Oct 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> > The rule of six does NOT apply to initiative.
>
>
>
> I have to laugh at this. The first time I ever palyed shadowrun, we
> applied the rule of six to initiative. All I kept thinking was "my God,
> how many turns do these people get!" Combat took forever. I think the
> module was Dreamchipper or the one that came with the screen...silver
> something or other. Anyone else have interesting rule goofs?
>
>
> Nigel
>

Exactly the same happened to us, except we didn't find out that we
goofed until one of us went to EuroGenCon and the DLoH was there:

DLoH: "No, the rule of six doesn't apply to initiative rolls, some groups
have picked it up and I don't know why, particularly over here in England"

My friend tried to blend into the background and look inconspicuous.

GLO



--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Message no. 23
From: Stephane Lafrance <Stephane.Lafrance@***.ULAVAL.CA>
Subject: Re: initiative and reflex enhancement
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 09:35:57 EDT
----------------------[Reply - Original Message]----------------------
Sent by:Skrub <mccllstr@*****.BUCKNELL.EDU>
> The rule of six does NOT apply to initiative.

Where did you come up with this one? It most certainly does!

-Skrub
=====================================================================
Sorry I'm four days late!
It's written in SRII that there's no rule of six for initiative.

Note: if it's already been answered, ignore this mail.
Stephan

Further Reading

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