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Message no. 1
From: shuntsbe@**.us.adobe.com (Steve Huntsberry)
Subject: Re: Initiative Dice
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:34:43 -0800 (PST)
Jason Carter, Nightstalker writes:
-
-Damion Milliken said:
-
->> As for making a cybered version, thats up to you, but i wouldn't allow it.
->> And if i did i'd make sure the drain was VERY severe.
-
->Well, by the rules, a cybered version is only +1 Drain (is it level or
->target #?), the same as for the Increase Attribute spells.
-
->As for the disadvantges of having such a spell, yeah, I know <evil GM grin>
-
-Wrong! Acordding to the rules (SRII page 155) "There is no cybered version
-of this spell".
-

But would it be legitimate to research one? Would GMs allow it?
I think that the line in the rules refers to the "known" versions.

Clearly there are cybered versions of the other Increase X spells,
thus why not reaction? Is there some magical basis to prohibit it,
or did FASA just not want to see mages with 8 dice of initiative?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Huntsberry # Adobe Systems Inc. # shuntsbe@**.us.adobe.com
When you expect whistles, it's flutes, when you expect flutes, it's whistles.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Initiative Dice
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 19:15:34 +1100 (EST)
>Clearly there are cybered versions of the other Increase X spells,
>thus why not reaction? Is there some magical basis to prohibit it,
>or did FASA just not want to see mages with 8 dice of initiative?

Because there is the flat rule that multiple forms of reflex-enhancement
do NOT work. :) So you can't have Wired and Vehicle Rig, Wired and
Boosted, Wired and Synaptic Accelerators, or Wired and Increase Reaction
+4. :)


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 3
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Initiative Dice
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:50:18 GMT
Steve Huntsberry writes

> Jason Carter, Nightstalker writes:
> -
> -Damion Milliken said:
> -
> ->Well, by the rules, a cybered version is only +1 Drain (is it level or
> ->target #?), the same as for the Increase Attribute spells.
> -
> ->As for the disadvantges of having such a spell, yeah, I know <evil GM
grin>
> -
> -Wrong! Acordding to the rules (SRII page 155) "There is no cybered version
> -of this spell".
> -
>
> But would it be legitimate to research one? Would GMs allow it?
> I think that the line in the rules refers to the "known" versions.
>
> Clearly there are cybered versions of the other Increase X spells,
> thus why not reaction? Is there some magical basis to prohibit it,
> or did FASA just not want to see mages with 8 dice of initiative?
>
They outright banned skacking bonus dice from cyber with Anything
else.
If you take it's not banned only a rumored DLOH ruling keeps you from
getting the Phsad to 9D6 + drugs.

The other method of abuse is the +xD6 spell

+3D6 is F/2 D and each +1D6 is +1 level or +2 drain target above D
ie you could have a +8D6 initative dice spell for ((F/2)+10)D drain.

Again if you meet the DLOH rule max 4D6 you have a problem but
cybertechnology give an explicit example involvind move by wire 4 and
synaptic one (the only exception to cyber stacking) that 6D6 so this
is not technically illegal, however any GM that permits it needs
his/her head examined as the personal version arrives for >8D6 for
that drain!

I once calculated that Phsad +synaptic 2 + f/12+10 +lots D6 spell
could get you 17 dice!!!! needless to say certain requirements got
banned!

The for fun calculations on this with Kamikazee etc have got maximum
initatives over 100, and starting with a great Dragon (because it get
more natural reac+dice than PC's) got over 133 initative theoretical
maximum rolled and this was before cybertechnology and reaction
enhancers that stack with all but move by wire.

End result however you do it is that PC's with average scores over
about 25 even in super powered campains are ridiculous, i'm used to
18-21 out of +3D6 locked or wired 2, which for a 'standard high
league runners' game is about as fast as you can get, avaerage
gangers still never ever get to act unless you have partial cover and
get to drop a smoke greande, flash pack or something before the dice
start rolling!

Mark
Message no. 4
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: Initiative Dice
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:08:12 -0500
On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >Clearly there are cybered versions of the other Increase X spells,
> >thus why not reaction? Is there some magical basis to prohibit it,
> >or did FASA just not want to see mages with 8 dice of initiative?
>
> Because there is the flat rule that multiple forms of reflex-enhancement
> do NOT work. :) So you can't have Wired and Vehicle Rig, Wired and
> Boosted, Wired and Synaptic Accelerators, or Wired and Increase Reaction
> +4. :)

Yeah. You get the results from one or the other, but not both. You
could use this as a Dirty Trick (tm), though. Cast your Inc. Cyber
Reflexes +3 on your sam before the fight. Team gets in trouble, enemy
mage comes along, sees spell, thinks, "Aha! This'll slow 'em down",
attacks and destroys spell. Surprise! He's still just as fast with his
wired 3. :)



>
>
> --
> *************************************************************************
> * .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
> * _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
> * @__ )/ # *
> * )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
> * {}== \--==--`= # *
> * ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
> * L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
> *************************************************************************
>
>
>
Message no. 5
From: T Marsh tantriel@**********.com
Subject: Initiative Dice
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:49:39 +0100
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Trawling through the web, I've found several characters with IMHO unobtainable Initiative
Dice.

One example has the following Bioware & Sustaining Foci

Synaptic Accelerator 1
Increased Reflexes+3 (on two Foci)

And has this down as giving an end Initiative of 8D6 (with the base 1D6 added).

Is this as unplausible as I think it is, or can you stack spells if they are in seperate
Foci?

*RUNS AWAY SCREAMING*

Tantriel

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<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"
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<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=GENERATOR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Trawling through the web, I've found
several
characters with IMHO unobtainable Initiative Dice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One example has the following Bioware
&amp;
Sustaining Foci</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Synaptic Accelerator
1</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Increased Reflexes+3 (on two
Foci)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And has this down as giving an end
Initiative of
8D6 (with the base 1D6 added).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Is this as unplausible as I think it
is, or can you
stack spells if they are in seperate Foci?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>*RUNS AWAY
SCREAMING*</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Tantriel</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Message no. 6
From: Peter Mikulsky PeterMikulsky@********.de
Subject: Initiative Dice
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 17:53:44 +0200
T Marsh wrote at 2nd April 2000 16:49

One example has the following Bioware & Sustaining Foci

Synaptic Accelerator 1
Increased Reflexes+3 (on two Foci)

And has this down as giving an end Initiative of 8D6 (with the base 1D6
added).

Is this as unplausible as I think it is, or can you stack spells if they are
in seperate Foci?

No, it isn't allowed, a character can have only one option to increase is
initive dices.
Magic and mundane increases dont work together, or two fokis with the same
spell.
Other GM's, other (House)rules :-)

Peter
Message no. 7
From: Richard Gaywood r.gaywood@**********.com
Subject: Initiative Dice
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 17:34:13 -0000
Tantriel wrote:

>>>Trawling through the web, I've found several characters with IMHO
unobtainable Initiative Dice.
One example has the following Bioware & Sustaining Foci
Synaptic Accelerator 1
Increased Reflexes+3 (on two Foci)
And has this down as giving an end Initiative of 8D6 (with the base 1D6
added).
Is this as unplausible as I think it is, or can you stack spells if they are
in seperate Foci? <<<

Not only does this break loads of rules in the books, but it's munchkinism
of the highest order. I once had a troll with 4D6+14 (touch of power gaming,
and the character was over four years old) and believe me, that's quite high
enough. He got to act twice before most samurai could blink, let alone
normal humans. He could also, according to the letter of the SR2 rules, run
at over 70mph IIRC. This was discovered after a bad guy got safely away in a
battered & slow car, only to have the player look up from the rulebook with
an evil gleam in his eye and say "I'll run after him..."

He caught the bad guy, and I let him have his fun. Lord knows, he paid for
it later... <EGMG>

>>>*RUNS AWAY SCREAMING*<<<

Quite.

--
-=R=-

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b+++ !B UB IE++ RN++ W- | ICQ: 66545073
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Message no. 8
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Initiative Dice
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 15:05:25 -0400
> Is this as unplausible as I think it is, or can you stack
> spells if they are in seperate Foci?

A good way to think about how reaction enhancements actually work is that
when an enhancement says "+1d6 to initiative", what it really means is:

"This enhancement brings you to the level of having 2d6 dice for
initiative".

It should _not_ be interpreted as meaning:

"This enhancement adds an initiative dice."


It would be better if the books didn't use the "+1d6" syntax, as after you
look at errata and statements from FASA, they clearly intend that
initiative bonuses do _not_ "stack".
Message no. 9
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Initiative Dice
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:24:53 +0200
According to Phil, at 11:33 on 4 Apr 00, the word on the street was...

> Please check me, because I couldn't find anything to verify it, despite
> going through the book repeatedly: There seems to be nothing forbidding
> Boosted Reflexes and Synaptic accelerators in M&M.

That is the only combination that's not specifically forbidden, as far as
I can find in M&M on a quick browse-through.

It _is_ mentioned in M&M (more than once) that synaptic accelerators don't
stack with wired reflexes or move by wire, and in SR3 boosted reflexes are
declared incompatible with wired reflexes. But the combination of boosted
reflexes plus synaptic accelerator isn't...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 10
From: Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject: Initiative Dice
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:34:39 -0500
Gurth wrote:
>
> According to Phil, at 11:33 on 4 Apr 00, the word on the street was...
>
> > Please check me, because I couldn't find anything to verify it, despite
> > going through the book repeatedly: There seems to be nothing forbidding
> > Boosted Reflexes and Synaptic accelerators in M&M.
>
> That is the only combination that's not specifically forbidden, as far as
> I can find in M&M on a quick browse-through.
>
> It _is_ mentioned in M&M (more than once) that synaptic accelerators don't
> stack with wired reflexes or move by wire, and in SR3 boosted reflexes are
> declared incompatible with wired reflexes. But the combination of boosted
> reflexes plus synaptic accelerator isn't...

The M&M errata specifically clears this up. They can be found at
Herkim's Lair, I believe:
http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/errindex.php3

In general, all semi-experienced shadowrun players should know that you
can never stack initiative things like spells, phys ad powers, foci,
bioware, and cyberware.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

Life is like a Wankel Engine. In between the emptiness of boredom and
despair, and the compression of stress in one's life, there's that one
spark of enjoyment that keeps you going.
Message no. 11
From: Phil pames@*****.net
Subject: Initiative Dice
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 14:04:55 -0500
At 01:34 PM 4/4/2000 -0500, Lars wrote

>
>The M&M errata specifically clears this up. They can be found at
>Herkim's Lair, I believe:
>http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/errindex.php3
>
>In general, all semi-experienced shadowrun players should know that you
>can never stack initiative things like spells, phys ad powers, foci,
>bioware, and cyberware.
>

Actually, the Man and Machine errata makes no mention of it. Perhaps it
should be added? On the other hand, it's not a particularly dangerous
combination, either; neither bonus is upgradeable, and you might as well
just get wired reflexes for the cost.

Phil
Message no. 12
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: Initiative Dice
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:49:25 EDT
In a message dated Tue, 4 Apr 2000 1:23:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, "Gurth"
<gurth@******.nl> writes:

<snip>
> That is the only combination that's not specifically forbidden, as far as
> I can find in M&M on a quick browse-through.
>
> It _is_ mentioned in M&M (more than once) that synaptic accelerators don't
> stack with wired reflexes or move by wire, and in SR3 boosted reflexes are
> declared incompatible with wired reflexes. But the combination of boosted
> reflexes plus synaptic accelerator isn't...

Plus (unless it's been changed), boosted reflexes is permanent. Once you get it, you're
stuck with it. You're S.O.L. if you want a different system later.

Cash

Further Reading

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