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From:	LXR LXR@***.net
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:40:59 +0200

Message no. 1 Hey there,

at the moment in my group we are still using the SR2 rules. I want to
convince them to use the new SR3 rules. But a main point why they don't want
to use them are the Initative rules. They say it's unrealistic that a heavy
cybered Streetsam has only one action before even the slowest opponent.
Actually they are right. But is there any plausible reason for the new rules
or is it just game balance.

BTW the funny thing they don't have any high Initiatives. So a good reason
to convince them could be a cyber-zobmie with Initative of 13+4d6 <g>

Thx LX

From:	Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Sun, 24 Oct 1999 08:53:57 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 2 Today, LXR spoke on Initiative in SR3:

> at the moment in my group we are still using the SR2 rules. I want to
> convince them to use the new SR3 rules. But a main point why they don't want
> to use them are the Initative rules. They say it's unrealistic that a heavy
> cybered Streetsam has only one action before even the slowest opponent.
> Actually they are right. But is there any plausible reason for the new rules
> or is it just game balance.

I think it is just game balance, but I like it. Remember, a Sammy still
gets all his actions, they are just at different places.

SR2: SSSNSSSSNSSSSNS
SR3: SNSSSSNSSSSNSSS

(3 round combat, S Init 31-35, N Init 6-9)

> BTW the funny thing they don't have any high Initiatives. So a good reason
> to convince them could be a cyber-zobmie with Initative of 13+4d6 <g>

Maybe, unless they aren't muchkins.

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984

From:	Airwasp@*.com Airwasp@*.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Sun, 24 Oct 1999 10:05:35 EDT

Message no. 3 In a message dated 10/24/99 4:45:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time, LXR@***.net
writes:

> at the moment in my group we are still using the SR2 rules. I want to
> convince them to use the new SR3 rules. But a main point why they don't
want
> to use them are the Initative rules. They say it's unrealistic that a heavy
> cybered Streetsam has only one action before even the slowest opponent.
> Actually they are right. But is there any plausible reason for the new
rules
> or is it just game balance.

There is a plausible reason. The basis for the rules behind
initiative-augmenting cyberware/bioware is that they enable a character to
better react (note this word) to a given situation. And the higher the
initiative you have means you are able to react that much more than the
opposition.

The only reason your players may not like it is that the new initiative
(considering it's still only a little over a year old) system evens the score
out, enabling the opposition to take some pot-shots before they are toast due
to the character's having higher initiative scores. Translation, the players
are afraid that their character's may be killed by some sec-guard whereas
before, the entire team would have gone once or twice before the npcs had
even a chance to open fire and therefore like the situation where they can
'kill' 95% of the normal npcs before they even have to worry about dodging.

> BTW the funny thing they don't have any high Initiatives. So a good reason
> to convince them could be a cyber-zobmie with Initative of 13+4d6 <g>

No, IMO, you would just be fueling the players egos even more. I would say
this, have your players do a mock combat scenario. In the first, pit them
against an equal number of security guards and use the SR2 initiative system.
In the second, do the same thing, but use the SR3 initiative system.

The SR3 system brings mortality back into the game again.

-Mike B.
-------- Not in a good mood, just tired of many things.

From:	Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Sun, 24 Oct 1999 10:27:15 -0400

Message no. 4 LX asked:
> at the moment in my group we are still using the SR2 rules. I want to
> convince them to use the new SR3 rules. But a main point why they
> don't want
> to use them are the Initative rules. They say it's unrealistic
> that a heavy
> cybered Streetsam has only one action before even the slowest opponent.
> Actually they are right. But is there any plausible reason for
> the new rules
> or is it just game balance.

I think that it is game balance, but if you want to get technical after the
first pass it's a moot point. Once everyone has gone and then the cyberjock
gets to go usually 2 more times before everyone gets to go again. So really
the only time that it matters is the very first pass after that if you shift
your viewpoint a little then the samurai does get to go two times before
everyone else does.

The best reason is allowing more players to get involved sooner. Sometimes
real world accuracy is less important than allowing everyone to have a good
time. It's nice to discuss the details on the list, but don't get bogged
down in them.

;)

Smilin' Jack

From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:10:51 -0700

Message no. 5 On Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:40:59 +0200 "LXR" <LXR@***.net> writes:
> Hey there,
>
> at the moment in my group we are still using the SR2 rules. I want to
> convince them to use the new SR3 rules. But a main point why they don't
want
> to use them are the Initative rules. They say it's unrealistic that a
heavy
> cybered Streetsam has only one action before even the slowest opponent.
> Actually they are right. But is there any plausible reason for the new
rules
> or is it just game balance.
<SNIP>

They are right in that it is unrealistic. They are wrong in that SR3 is
LESS unrealistic than SR2.

"RL": Tweaked out sam gets actions distributed evenly before, after and
amongst slower opponents' actions.

SR2: Tweaked out Sam gets all of his actions before really slow
opponents' actions. Even against faster (but slower than the Sam) the
distribution is lopsided towards the front.

SR3: Tweaked out Sam gets actions distributed more evenly than in SR2 but
less than "RL". Distribution of actions is lopsided towards the rear.

End result:
SR2 - Street Sam can kill a large unaugmented group before they can fire
once.
SR3 - Street Sam can kill a large unaugmented group before they can fire
twice. However, due to the inability of the Sam to clean the floor with
them before they can fire once, the Sam is more likely to act reasonably
by ducking for cover and such. (We introduced SR3 intiative system after
everyone declared actions in a fight. The GM then allowed us to change
actions. The only change was that the Sam, instead of running out into
the middle of a room, ran to the edge of the room and took cover in the
hallway. :)

What helped the transistion go over well was that the Mage had been
complaining that he didn't go soon enough and that he didn't really get
to do anything ... (Additionally, even the Sams player agreed that the
new initiative system encouraged more realistic actions.)

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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From:	Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 00:44:02 -0400

Message no. 6 >at the moment in my group we are still using the SR2 rules. I want to
>convince them to use the new SR3 rules. But a main point why they don't
want
>to use them are the Initative rules. They say it's unrealistic that a heavy
>cybered Streetsam has only one action before even the slowest opponent.
>Actually they are right. But is there any plausible reason for the new
rules
>or is it just game balance.

Once again, since I wrote the system, I'll try to explain it.

Without a doubt the main reason we chose to change SR3 initiative was game
balance.
In SR2 it was almost comical trying to play a simple mage with no Reaction
modifiers (ala Spell Locks, or some cyberare).
Unmodified character very often never got to take an action. That's
extremely bad for game balance.

As for realism, another writer here hit it right on the button.
Wired Reflexes, and Reaction boosting spells are designed to increase your
response time.
That is they decrease the amount of time the samurai needs to realize he's
in danger, and then get ready for a fight.
QUICKNESS is what you need to improve to actually move faster than other
people, and as quickness is used to factor mReaction, its effect on
initiative is already factored in.

>BTW the funny thing they don't have any high Initiatives. So a good reason
>to convince them could be a cyber-zobmie with Initative of 13+4d6 <g>

Here's a better reason, they actually are better off with the new initiative
system.
Run some sample combats for them using both SR2 and SR3 rules.
Use the same comabtants for both tests as follows.

In all these tests, use Archetype-style characters with no Karma, and only
moderate weapons and equipment. No Heavy Armor, nothing that fires more than
a 3 round burst, or Damage code higher than 9M

TEST
One Uncybered Ganger for each Runner
SR2 RESULT
The Runners should easily defeat the gangers before most of Gangers even
draw their weapons.
SR3 RESULT
Again, the Runners should win the fight easily, but some of the Gangers may
get a shot or two off, increasing the threat for the Runners, and bringing
mortality and realism back into the game
CONCLUSION
Both systems work basically the same.

TEST
Each Runner plays a basic Street Mage with NO initiative modifiers, they
each fight One Ganger with Bosted Reflexes 1, armed with a burst fire
weapon.
SR2 RESULT
The Mages may win, but they will have taken a solid beating. Some may have
even died before getting off a spell.
SR3 RESULT
Again a tough battle, but with Area-of-Effect Spells, and a better chance at
taking an action, the mages have a good chance to winning.
CONCLUSION
Runner Advantage goes to SR3

TEST
A mixed, but solid team of runners, include a Samurai, a Mage, etc. Use the
standard Reaction for each class in the book, they fight one LARGE Wasp
Queen Spirit, call it a Force 10 (IMO a reasonable number for a TOUGH, but
beatable hive queen, comparable to the one in Universal Brotherhood) Add in
One True Form Wasp (Force 6) for each Runner, and give the Queen the Shared
Willpower ability.
SR2 RESULT
The Spirits should make short work of the runners. The Queen has an average
Initiative of what ... 40 + d6??? With the other Wasps going almost as fast
as the runners, the Wasps should clean house here.
SR3 RESULT
Still a VERY tough battle, but that Boo-Scary Wasp Queen gets ONE action
before the team gets to rip into her! With some good dice rolls, and a
little luck, the runners should make it out alive, and with only a few
casaultyies.
CONCLUSION
Runner Advantage - SR3

Another nice thing about SR3's system is that you get your dice pools
refreshed faster than SR2.
SR2 - Use all your Combat Pool in the first turn, and unless you roll high
in the next initiative, you have no Combat Pool for defense (Pool doesn't
refresh until your FIRST action in the turn!) If you play a mage and roll a
10, the opposing Sammy's get to shoot your diceless defenseless soon-to-be
corpse several times before you can defend!
In SR3, even if you roll a 10, the samurai only get ONE shot EACH before
your dice pool is back in business.

The real problem your players are having is that of perceived power.
They think you're trying to screw them and take away their "kewl toys"
If they really want to play superheroes - hey, it's your game, go for it.
But if they want a more realistic combat system where runners can and DO
take a wound or two now and then, then SR3 can better deliver the goods.

Hope this helps explain why initiative was changed, and why the change was a
good one.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"Half of All Gamers Never Read the Rules, Half of All Gamers Argue About the
Rules, Unfortunately, Its the Same Half."

From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 00:22:33 -0700

Message no. 7 On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 00:44:02 -0400 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Another nice thing about SR3's system is that you get your dice pools
> refreshed faster than SR2.
> SR2 -
<SNIP>
> (Pool doesn't refresh until your FIRST action in the turn!)
<SNIP>

Uhm, Tinner, I think you are quoting a house rule ... In SR2 dice pools
refresh every action ... A Sam who rolls a 26 gets his pools refreshed at
actions 26, 16, and 6. SR3 put a serious crimp in dice pools ...

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

___________________________________________________________________
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From:	Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 01:18:32 -0400

Message no. 8 >Uhm, Tinner, I think you are quoting a house rule ... In SR2 dice pools
>refresh every action ... A Sam who rolls a 26 gets his pools refreshed at
>actions 26, 16, and 6. SR3 put a serious crimp in dice pools ...

OK scratch that.
That's what happens when you send email without having your books nearby!
Sorry for the confusion, but my other points still stand.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/tinner
"Half of All Gamers Never Read the Rules, Half of All Gamers Argue About the
Rules, Unfortunately, Its the Same Half."

From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 04:07:10 -0500

Message no. 9 :As for realism, another writer here hit it right on the button.
:Wired Reflexes, and Reaction boosting spells are designed to increase your
:response time.
:That is they decrease the amount of time the samurai needs to realize he's
:in danger, and then get ready for a fight.
:QUICKNESS is what you need to improve to actually move faster than other
:people, and as quickness is used to factor mReaction, its effect on
:initiative is already factored in.

Actually, you got DemonSeed's reasonsing somewhat reveresed, I think.
The main point is that it still takes just about as long to FIGURE OUT
what to do,
although you "react" faster, in that it doesn't take as long to notice you
should do SOMETHING. However, the wires really kick in once you have
figured out you are in trouble and how to react, letting you get those
copmmands down to your body faster.
At least, that's how I read it (on DR forums, can't find it now, though)
, and that's how it "feals" when I play it out. I play a mage who has a
sufo for "increased reflexes +3", but sometimes I can't use it. Basically,
without it, I don't get into action quite as quick, but mostly I can't
"force" my body to respond as EFFECTIVELY, because I don't get "follow
up"
actions.
Realise that ANY interpretation here is pretty much "handwaving"- the
most important point is, SR3's initiative seems to be more fun to play with.
Both are equally "unrealistic", IMO, because how and when you respond to a
situation is governed by far to many factors to depend entirely (or even
primarily) on something as abstract as a single intiaitive roll.

:>BTW the funny thing they don't have any high Initiatives. So a good reason
:>to convince them could be a cyber-zobmie with Initative of 13+4d6 <g>
:
:Here's a better reason, they actually are better off with the new
initiative
:system.

No, that is NOT going to make a difference to people who's concern is
"realism". On the other hand, throwing an absurdly fast opponant (like a
bug queen or a REAL speed samurai, not those dumb zombies) may convince them
that the SR2 rules are somewhat "unrealistic". I got that fealing myself,
after playing a character with a 17+4d6 intiaive for about a year.

:Run some sample combats for them using both SR2 and SR3 rules.
:Use the same comabtants for both tests as follows.

Again, if "realism" is the issue, none of these will make a diference.
:Another nice thing about SR3's system is that you get your dice pools
:refreshed faster than SR2.

I realise your claim may have ben based on a house rule, but consider
this: in SR3 pools get refreshed once per TURN rather than once per ACTION.
Of course, that gives the slow folks as many pool dice (per turn) to spend
as fast folks, which is likely an advantege for slower people. However, in
those last few passes, everybodies pool is generally near empty- getting
shot then just plain SUCKS, so those "follow up" actions tend to be VERY
effective. So really, the "pool" issue is failry moot; SR3 just reduces the
silly numbers of dice that fly around, and tends to keep staging (in either
direction) to reasonable levels.

:The real problem your players are having is that of perceived power.

If you noticed, he did NOT have a group of spead freaks afraid to "loose
thier edge". In fact, I've noticed that most times, people who want to
stick with SR2 have never played REALLY fast characters- which is why they
don't realise how unrealistic SR2 is!
Myself, I think the intiaive sytem ideas I developed
www.geocities.com/m0ng005e.srinit.htm ) can add more "realistic" results to
either system, but they do tend to ad to much complexity and make things a
fair bit more random (not the total number of actions, but thier order).
That's "realism" for yah. It does explain the "whys" of my
suggestions,
however.

Mongoose

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:59:27 +0200

Message no. 10 According to Steven A. Tinner, at 0:44 on 25 Oct 99, the word on the
street was...

[snip tests]
> Another nice thing about SR3's system is that you get your dice pools
> refreshed faster than SR2.

How do you figure that? In SR3, the pool refreshes once per turn, while in
SRII it refreshed every time you had an action. It seems to me that in
SRII, that made it refresh more quickly for most characters (i.e. those
with more than one action) than in SR3.

SR3 does make this bit easier on low-initiative characters, though, since
the fast street sam types will probably use lots of pool in the beginning
of the turn and then have none left in later phases.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Remember that all the items in the equipment lists are obviously
not available anywhere." --Gemini RPG, p. 100
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:18:55 -0400

Message no. 11 Gurth wrote:

> <SNIP>

> SR3 does make this bit easier on low-initiative characters, though, since
> the fast street sam types will probably use lots of pool in the beginning
> of the turn and then have none left in later phases.
>

Why is that? Any stupid player who doesn't think ahead will run into this
problem, IMO. Or are you implying that players of fast sams have a propensity
for stupidity ;^)?

On the subject of dice pools, the one thing no one is discussing is Threat
Ratings, which have been majorly boosted in SR3. In SR2, a Threat Rating of 4
(which the book said should be for when the team has a lot of Karma, something
like 50 points) wouldn't be acceptable for a combat with my players, the NPCs
always took Deadly wounds (and I don't bother with overdamage on NPCs, it's a
waste of my time. If they get a Deadly wound or the combination hits 10 boxes,
the NPC is toast) with one shot! Now, with the same Threat Rating, unless the
players use all Combat Pool for ALL tests (which I think one player does, but
that's a different issue entirely), the combat will take maybe a few TURNS
instead of ROUNDS.

>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> "Remember that all the items in the equipment lists are obviously
> not available anywhere." --Gemini RPG, p. 100
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> ->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
> -> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-
>
> GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
> PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+
M-

From:	Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:28:21 -0400

Message no. 12 At 09:18 AM 10/25/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Gurth wrote:
>
> > <SNIP>
>
> > SR3 does make this bit easier on low-initiative characters, though, since
> > the fast street sam types will probably use lots of pool in the beginning
> > of the turn and then have none left in later phases.
> >
>
>Why is that? Any stupid player who doesn't think ahead will run into this
>problem, IMO. Or are you implying that players of fast sams have a propensity
>for stupidity ;^)?
>
> On the subject of dice pools, the one thing no one is discussing is
> Threat
>Ratings, which have been majorly boosted in SR3. In SR2, a Threat Rating of 4
>(which the book said should be for when the team has a lot of Karma, something
>like 50 points) wouldn't be acceptable for a combat with my players, the NPCs
>always took Deadly wounds (and I don't bother with overdamage on NPCs, it's a
>waste of my time. If they get a Deadly wound or the combination hits 10 boxes,
>the NPC is toast) with one shot! Now, with the same Threat Rating, unless the
>players use all Combat Pool for ALL tests (which I think one player does, but
>that's a different issue entirely), the combat will take maybe a few TURNS
>instead of ROUNDS.

I thought that they got rid of the Threat Rating for NPCs entirely? I have
to double check, but IIRC an NPC uses the regular pools that come from his
attributes, and also a Professional Rating that is mostly an indicator of
when he will bug out.

And as an aside, how were your characters getting deadly wounds with one
shot even after dodging? With a Threat Rating of 4, the NPS should have had
2 successes on average. So that means that if the character is firing a
Heavy Pistol, he would need 6 successes to still have a Deadly wound! Even
an assaulty rifle or SMG on burst would need 4 successes.

How much skill do these characters have, how much pool do they use, and how
many of the Combat Modifiers are you using? If the only ones used are for
SLII or a laser sight, of course the NPC's will get hosed. However, if the
NPCs use some cover and work together, they should be able to hold out for
a while, and give those characters something to worry about.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.

From:	Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:28:56 -0500 (CDT)

Message no. 13 Today, dghost@****.com spoke on Re: Initiative in SR3:

> On Mon, 25 Oct 1999 00:44:02 -0400 "Steven A. Tinner"
> <bluewizard@*****.com> writes:
> <SNIP>
> > Another nice thing about SR3's system is that you get your dice pools
> > refreshed faster than SR2.
> > SR2 -
> <SNIP>
> > (Pool doesn't refresh until your FIRST action in the turn!)
> <SNIP>
>
> Uhm, Tinner, I think you are quoting a house rule ... In SR2 dice pools
> refresh every action ... A Sam who rolls a 26 gets his pools refreshed at
> actions 26, 16, and 6. SR3 put a serious crimp in dice pools ...

Right, just before each action, but after the first round, you have to
*wait* until your first action (even if a Sammy has 3 before you) before
your pools refresh. It's the same thing in SR3 but, you get that action a
little sooner.

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:13:42 +0200

Message no. 14 According to Strago, at 9:18 on 25 Oct 99, the word on the street was...

> > SR3 does make this bit easier on low-initiative characters, though, since
> > the fast street sam types will probably use lots of pool in the beginning
> > of the turn and then have none left in later phases.
>
> Why is that? Any stupid player who doesn't think ahead will run into this
> problem, IMO.

Not necessarily -- the faster types will have more actions in which they
can use pool dice, so they'll run out faster. Thinking ahead will reduce
the problem, certainly.

> Or are you implying that players of fast sams have a propensity for
> stupidity ;^)?

Well... judging by some players I know... ;)

> On the subject of dice pools, the one thing no one is discussing is Threat
> Ratings, which have been majorly boosted in SR3.

They've been deleted in SR3, you mean :) They were replaced by Karma
Pools, which (it seems to me) generally have the same "level" (for want of
a better word) as the old Threat Rating had.

> In SR2, a Threat Rating of 4 (which the book said should be for when the
> team has a lot of Karma, something like 50 points) wouldn't be
> acceptable for a combat with my players, the NPCs always took Deadly
> wounds (and I don't bother with overdamage on NPCs, it's a waste of my
> time. If they get a Deadly wound or the combination hits 10 boxes, the
> NPC is toast) with one shot! Now, with the same Threat Rating, unless
> the players use all Combat Pool for ALL tests (which I think one player
> does, but that's a different issue entirely), the combat will take maybe
> a few TURNS instead of ROUNDS.

After reading the above paragraph several times, I'm still not entirely
certain what you're trying to get across about Threat Ratings...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Remember that all the items in the equipment lists are obviously
not available anywhere." --Gemini RPG, p. 100
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Strago strago@***.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:42:35 -0400

Message no. 15 Gurth wrote:

> According to Strago, at 9:18 on 25 Oct 99, the word on the street was...
>
> ><SNIP>

> > On the subject of dice pools, the one thing no one is discussing is Threat
> > Ratings, which have been majorly boosted in SR3.
>
> They've been deleted in SR3, you mean :) They were replaced by Karma
> Pools, which (it seems to me) generally have the same "level" (for want of
> a better word) as the old Threat Rating had.
>

Oops, I must have missed that. I've still been using Threat Ratings.

>
> > In SR2, a Threat Rating of 4 (which the book said should be for when the
> > team has a lot of Karma, something like 50 points) wouldn't be
> > acceptable for a combat with my players, the NPCs always took Deadly
> > wounds (and I don't bother with overdamage on NPCs, it's a waste of my
> > time. If they get a Deadly wound or the combination hits 10 boxes, the
> > NPC is toast) with one shot! Now, with the same Threat Rating, unless
> > the players use all Combat Pool for ALL tests (which I think one player
> > does, but that's a different issue entirely), the combat will take maybe
> > a few TURNS instead of ROUNDS.
>
> After reading the above paragraph several times, I'm still not entirely
> certain what you're trying to get across about Threat Ratings...
>

So you see, in that instance, with the PCs having to stretch their Combat Pool
throughout combat and (what I thought was right) my still using Threat Ratings, the
NPCs were able to affect the PCs a LOT more and to shrug off damage a lot easier.
Especially since, for ease, I just had Body and SMGs at 6 with a Threat Rating of 4.
10 dice were enough, yesterday. I just gotta remember to up Willpower next time from
4 to 5! (Having a whole group of people watching a sacrifice really sucks when a
Manaball goes off in the center. That damn 6 meter radius!)

>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> "Remember that all the items in the equipment lists are obviously
> not available anywhere." --Gemini RPG, p. 100
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> ->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
> -> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-
>
> GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
> PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:03:25 +0200

Message no. 16 According to Strago, at 13:42 on 25 Oct 99, the word on
the street was...

> > They've been deleted in SR3, you mean :) They were replaced by Karma
> > Pools, which (it seems to me) generally have the same "level" (for
want of
> > a better word) as the old Threat Rating had.
>
> Oops, I must have missed that. I've still been using Threat Ratings.

NPCs now have dice pools (again) and for the first time, they get Karma
Pools that they use much like PCs can.

> > After reading the above paragraph several times, I'm still not entirely
> > certain what you're trying to get across about Threat Ratings...
>
> So you see, in that instance, with the PCs having to stretch their Combat Pool
> throughout combat and (what I thought was right) my still using Threat Ratings, the
> NPCs were able to affect the PCs a LOT more and to shrug off damage a lot easier.
> Especially since, for ease, I just had Body and SMGs at 6 with a Threat Rating of 4.
> 10 dice were enough, yesterday. I just gotta remember to up Willpower next time from
> 4 to 5! (Having a whole group of people watching a sacrifice really sucks when a
> Manaball goes off in the center. That damn 6 meter radius!)

Ah, _now_ I see what you mean. Yes, this gives the NPCs a rather big
advantage over the PCs, since the NPCs have the dice for every test while
the PCs have had their effective number of pool dice reduced. If you want
to keep using TR instead of giving NPCs normal dice pools, the best
solution would be to reduce the TR -- halve it, maybe.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Remember that all the items in the equipment lists are obviously
not available anywhere." --Gemini RPG, p. 100
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:42:14 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 17 On Mon, 25 Oct 1999, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

[BIG SNIP]

> But if they want a more realistic combat system where runners can and DO
> take a wound or two now and then, then SR3 can better deliver the goods.
>
> Hope this helps explain why initiative was changed, and why the change was a
> good one.

While I guess I don't have much of a problem with the rules
mechanics one way or the other, I *will* say two things about SR3's
initiative system.

1) The change seems to have been made with little or no thought
to how it affected the Essence and/or money costs of Wired Reflexes. When
you consider how many points it takes in character creation to even be
able to *afford* Wired-3, things get perspective. You're dropping more
points into resources than other folks are into being full-up mages. You
had *damn well* better get something good for it. Merely getting to go
first is not enough to justify the weighty monetary and Essence costs
associated with it. It's okay to make reflex enhancement less powerful,
but its decrease in effectiveness should be reflected elsewhere in the
rules, especially if "game balance" is cited as a reason for decreasing
the benefit in the first place.

2) Reflex enhancement has a bad rap. I've lost count of the
number of people I've heard cry over the years, wailing "The Sammies keep
geeking my bad guys before they get an action." Reflex enhancement is no
substitute for solid planning and good execution of a run. It's not hard
to keep even fast players on their toes if you take the time to think
about what you're throwing at them. In the last session of my game, the
fastest character in the party (with Wired-2) took a serious wound. There
weren't that many opponents, and they were all unaugmented (the guy that
shot him didn't even have a smartlink). But the situation he was in was a
bad one, and his speed didn't miraculously save him.
Don't get me started on my target number modifiers rant (I'm sure
you've all heard it by now), but realize that there's more to effective
combat than simply being fast. Yes, it can help ... under the right
circumstances. In some cases it's actually a hindrance, especially if
your GM uses the "jumping the gun" rules for reflex enhancement (which I
do). I've played with SR2's initiative rules for a long time now and have
never really had the kinds of problems other people complain about. As
such, I see no reason to switch, especially given the points discussed in
part 1) above.
Just my 0.02 nuyen

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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From:	Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:09:50 -0500

Message no. 18 >From: David Luebke <luebkedw@***********.Edu>
>
>
>>I've heard this argument about ten times already. It's based off
the
>>"ice bullet" from that Keenan Ivory Wayans movie, right? All of the
>>arguments I've heard have resulted in a resounding "No way." If you
>>use pure ice, it'd melt the second the gunpowder was lit, among
>other
>things.
>
>
>There has got to be some substance that you could use
>as a bullet that would work. Perhaps halite (rock salt),
<schnipp>

I know our riot control cops used shotgun shells filled with rock salt
to teach pretestors a painful lesson. No real damage but it stings
like crazy, I've been told.

Bruce <gyro@********.co.za>

From:	BRUCE gyro@********.co.za
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:42:54 +0200

Message no. 19 Bruce <gyro@********.co.za>
RULE NO 1:
DONT GET CAUGHT

From jestyr@*********.html.com Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:54:11 +1000
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:54:11 +1000
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: We're LIVE!!! (HHH Update)

>However, the most important fact I picked up was that Robert Boyle, MikeM's
>right-hand man, is an Einsturzende Neubauten fan! There's hope yet to be
>found.

There are other people on this planet who like Einsturzende Neubauten? And
some of them work at FASA?!

Damn that's cool. Happy now. :-)

(Yes, it doesn't take much to make me happy... sue me.)

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *

From x123456789123456789@*****.com Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:16:22 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 01:16:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: john miller x123456789123456789@*****.com
Subject: Oh my god.It's great!

--- abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
wrote:
> I stumbled across this today. What I'd like to
> know--among other things--is
> what you guys think of this, particularly the

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:43:32 +0200

Message no. 20 GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From gurth@******.nl Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:43:32 +0200
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:43:32 +0200
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Common Sense : The Edge, Not The Practice

According to Scott W, at 17:24 on 25 Oct 99, the word on the street was...

> Ban it? No, but I make it clear it's a silly one to take, as I
> extend that service (telling them when they're going to do something
> ultra-dumb) to all players. I mean, come on, if Player A does pop the
> guy with a grenade, just because he forgot that the enemy was a foot
> away, how entertaining and friendly is the game going to be when I rule
> everyone takes Deadly damage and falls down? Not very.

Simple: the grenade wouldn't explode at 30 cm range :)

In a combat situation, I don't think I'd warn the players -- these are
times when you have to act without thinking everything through too much,
because when you stop to think for too long, someone will shoot you. So,
if a bad guy appears at very close range and a PC would shoot a grenade
launcher at this target, I would not mentio

From:	Cybertroll cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net
Subject:	Initiative in SR3
Date:	Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:52:59 +0300

Message no. 21 Cybertroll

--
E-Mail : cybertroll@********.gr / cybertroll@********.org
ICQ# : 7483400 but u have to beg to get my authorization!! :-)))
Homepage: http://www.crosswinds.net/~cybertroll - WOA Photo Album
-----------C--Y--B--E--R--T--R--O--L--L----------------------------
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>=======<The official Blind Guardian IRC channel>===========<
U'll find the servers in http://www.othernet.org and in
http://tavern.home.pages.de/ (#tavern's homepage made by Soth)

From abortion_engine@*******.com Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:12:51 -0400
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:12:51 -0400
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: '57 Election Badges - what's the deal?

> <Snippola(TM)>
> > Thanks,
> > --Rat, pathetic Shadowrun completionist and Dunk
> > junkie
>
Ah, but how many Denver ID cards do you have, from the Denver Box Set?

From abortion_engine@*******.com Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:22:48 -0400
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:22:48 -0400
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Wacky things

>
> Oh, and ae? I've dubbed her PNC - Pretty Naked Chick.
> :)
>
> *Doc' apologises, but he likes Friends too...*
>
Heh. :)

From abortion_engine@*******.com Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:30:21 -0400
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:30:21 -0400
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Wacky things

> >Okay, here's a question for you guys.
> >
> >What's the wackiest thing you've thrown at your
> >players as a piece of irrelevant fluff during a run?
> >Did they assume it was important to the run?

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