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Message no. 1
From: newshadowrun@*******.net (newshadowrun@*******.net)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:06:55 +0000
Hey all,

One of my fellow players in a new SR campaign has created a brand spankin' new
character with an initiative of 5D6. I've never seen a starting character with
an init as high as that before, is it legal to start with an init that high? He
supposedly using non-conflicting cyberware, one piece is from SR3 and the other
from M&M. I wish I could tell you the names, but my character isn't cybered up
as heavily as him, so I don't know the names of the cyberware very readily. To
sum up, I want to know if it is legal to have init that high on a start up
character and if it is even possible, legally within the rules. Thanks.
Message no. 2
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:23:25 +0200
newshadowrun@*******.net wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> One of my fellow players in a new SR campaign has created a brand
> spankin' new
> character with an initiative of 5D6. I've never seen a starting
> character with
> an init as high as that before, is it legal to start with an init that
> high? He
> supposedly using non-conflicting cyberware, one piece is from SR3 and
> the other
> from M&M. I wish I could tell you the names, but my character isn't
> cybered up
> as heavily as him, so I don't know the names of the cyberware very
> readily. To
> sum up, I want to know if it is legal to have init that high on a
> start up
> character and if it is even possible, legally within the rules. Thanks.

IIRC there are two ways to get a 5D6 physical initiative through
cyber/bioware. The first is to use a rating 4 Move-by-Wire system but
given that it costs more than 1 million ¥, 7 Essence, has an horribly
high availability and that it will kill you within a year if you're
lucky (1 or 2 months is more likely), your friend probably used the
second.
Which is to combine rating 3 Boosted Reflexes (standard SR3 cyberware,
+2D6 Init.) and a rating 2 Synaptic Accelerator (bioware, M&M p74, +2D6
Init.). Notice that your friend's character still has a (relatively)
crappy Reaction attribute, meaning any decent sam with Ye Olde Wired
Reflexes 2 can and will give him a run for his money.

Anyway. According to the Official Shadowrun 3 FAQ
(http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/book/faq.shtml), those 2 implants are
compatible, and their bonuses stack. But (and that's what will interest
you), the Synaptic Accelerator is a piece of *cultured* bioware. And
the FAQ states that cultured bioware (even if it has an availability
lesser than 8) is not available at chargen.

From the FAQ (this is official material):

Q: Can a character purchase bioware at character creation? What about
cultured bioware? Nanoware?

A: Generally, this is the gamemaster's call, based upon how available
s/he wants to make such gear in his or her game. We recommend to
sticking to the Availability rule (no character can start the game with
any gear with an Availability higher than 8).
If you want an official call, then the answer is that all basic
bioware with an Availability of 8 or less is available at character
creation. Cultured bioware and nanoware are not, since they require the
equivalent of a beta-clinic to implant.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 3
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:39:35 +0100
At 08:06 AM 12/8/2003, newshadowrun wrote:
>One of my fellow players in a new SR campaign has created a brand spankin'
>new
>character with an initiative of 5D6. I've never seen a starting character
>with
>an init as high as that before, is it legal to start with an init that
>high? He
>supposedly using non-conflicting cyberware, one piece is from SR3 and the
>other
>from M&M. I wish I could tell you the names, but my character isn't
>cybered up
>as heavily as him, so I don't know the names of the cyberware very
>readily. To
>sum up, I want to know if it is legal to have init that high on a start up
>character and if it is even possible, legally within the rules. Thanks.

Depending on what is allowed at character creation (some games allow
bioware others don't for example) it is perfectly possible. Using boosted
reflexes and synaptic acceleration if you have the money (it gets very very
expensive...)


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 4
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:21:52 +0100 (BST)
<snipt!(TM)>
> Which is to combine rating 3 Boosted Reflexes
(standard SR3 cyberware, +2D6 Init.) and a rating 2
Synaptic Accelerator (bioware, M&M p74, +2D6 Init.).
Notice that your friend's character still has a
(relatively) crappy Reaction attribute, meaning any
decent sam with Ye Olde Wired Reflexes 2 can and will
give him a run for his money.
> -- Wild_Cat

Actually, Boosted 3 is +2/+2d6. If I was the sam in
question, I'd go for +2/+4d6 over +4/+2d6 any day. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 5
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:24:04 -0400
On Tuesday, Aug 12, 2003, at 03:06 US/Eastern, newshadowrun@*******.net
wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> One of my fellow players in a new SR campaign has created a brand
> spankin' new
> character with an initiative of 5D6. I've never seen a starting
> character with
> an init as high as that before, is it legal to start with an init that
> high? He
> supposedly using non-conflicting cyberware, one piece is from SR3 and
> the other
> from M&M. I wish I could tell you the names, but my character isn't
> cybered up
> as heavily as him, so I don't know the names of the cyberware very
> readily. To
> sum up, I want to know if it is legal to have init that high on a
> start up
> character and if it is even possible, legally within the rules. Thanks.
>
>
As long as you allow cultured bioware, a starting character can have
14+5D6 as shown in an example that was posted pretty recently.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 6
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:20:09 +0200
> As long as you allow cultured bioware, a starting character
> can have
> 14+5D6 as shown in an example that was posted pretty recently.

i would rather take 21+4d6, if i were into high inits, for a starting
character, but normaly i have around 5-7 +2d6 for most

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 7
From: newshadowrun@*******.net (newshadowrun@*******.net)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:30:35 +0000
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr writes:


> Which is to combine rating 3 Boosted Reflexes (standard SR3 cyberware,
> +2D6 Init.) and a rating 2 Synaptic Accelerator (bioware, M&M p74, +2D6
> Init.). Notice that your friend's character still has a (relatively)
> crappy Reaction attribute, meaning any decent sam with Ye Olde Wired
> Reflexes 2 can and will give him a run for his money.
>
> Anyway. According to the Official Shadowrun 3 FAQ
> (http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/book/faq.shtml), those 2 implants are
> compatible, and their bonuses stack. But (and that's what will interest
> you), the Synaptic Accelerator is a piece of *cultured* bioware. And
> the FAQ states that cultured bioware (even if it has an availability
> lesser than 8) is not available at chargen.

> If you want an official call, then the answer is that all basic
> bioware with an Availability of 8 or less is available at character
> creation. Cultured bioware and nanoware are not, since they require the
> equivalent of a beta-clinic to implant.

I appreciate the info. It would have been nice to catch this before the game
started. Not that I have anything against a player who is fast, but it just
seems a little unbalancing for a starting character to have such a very high
init roll. Thanks to all who answered my question.
Message no. 8
From: dreamrhythm@*******.com (Dream Rhythm)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:19:50 -0400
Rand Wrote:

>Actually, Boosted 3 is +2/+2d6. If I was the sam in
>question, I'd go for +2/+4d6 over +4/+2d6 any day.

I wouldn't. I hate that 'twichy feeling' that comes from wires without a
Reflex Trigger. ;)

Fortune

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Message no. 9
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:28:32 +0100
In article <20030812102152.79945.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>, Rand
Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>Actually, Boosted 3 is +2/+2d6. If I was the sam in
>question, I'd go for +2/+4d6 over +4/+2d6 any day. :)

Maybe, but it's not enough of an edge to be a Really Sure Win. What did
you give up to get that extra 5 points of average Reaction?

"Old age and treachery will usually prevail over youthful figure. DBF!"


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 10
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:33:08 +0100
Paul J. Adam wrote:
> In article <20030812102152.79945.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>, Rand
> Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>> Actually, Boosted 3 is +2/+2d6. If I was the sam in
>> question, I'd go for +2/+4d6 over +4/+2d6 any day. :)
>
> Maybe, but it's not enough of an edge to be a Really Sure Win. What
> did you give up to get that extra 5 points of average Reaction?

Well, assuming no other reaction modifiers apply, the max base starting
reaction would be 6.

So Mr Boosted/Synaptic has 8+5d6, Mr Wired has 10+3d6. So 50% of the
time Mr Wired has 3 actions, otherwise he has 2. Only rarely (9.8%) of
the time will Mr Bossted have 2 actions, and he will have 4 actions just
as often. 80.4% of the time he will have 3 actions.

So, only 4.9% of the time will Mr W have more actions than Mr B, however
Mr B has one more action than Mr W 45.1% of the time and 4.9% of the
time he will have 2 extra actions.... the remaining 45.1% of the time
they will both have the same number of actions.

As for cost, Mr W has spent 165k, Mr B 290k... Mr B has used 0.2 less
essence, but 1.0 more Bio index.

Matt


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Message no. 11
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:04:00 +0200
MB> Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> In article <20030812102152.79945.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>, Rand
>> Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
>>> Actually, Boosted 3 is +2/+2d6. If I was the sam in
>>> question, I'd go for +2/+4d6 over +4/+2d6 any day. :)
>>
>> Maybe, but it's not enough of an edge to be a Really Sure Win. What
>> did you give up to get that extra 5 points of average Reaction?

MB> Well, assuming no other reaction modifiers apply, the max base starting
MB> reaction would be 6.

MB> So Mr Boosted/Synaptic has 8+5d6, Mr Wired has 10+3d6. So 50% of the
MB> time Mr Wired has 3 actions, otherwise he has 2. Only rarely (9.8%) of
MB> the time will Mr Bossted have 2 actions, and he will have 4 actions just
MB> as often. 80.4% of the time he will have 3 actions.

MB> So, only 4.9% of the time will Mr W have more actions than Mr B, however
MB> Mr B has one more action than Mr W 45.1% of the time and 4.9% of the
MB> time he will have 2 extra actions.... the remaining 45.1% of the time
MB> they will both have the same number of actions.

MB> As for cost, Mr W has spent 165k, Mr B 290k... Mr B has used 0.2 less
MB> essence, but 1.0 more Bio index.

MB> Matt


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---------------------------------------------

Yeah right but Mr. W has given up on the idea of just stoping beeing
quick cause to my knowledge he can't use a Trigger. And other people
cann be so slloooowwwwwww...... ;)

Hexren
Message no. 12
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:12:17 +0200
Insert <Snip> where appropriate!

From: "Hexren" <me@******.net>
> MB> Paul J. Adam wrote:
> >> In article <20030812102152.79945.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>, Rand
> >> Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com> writes
> >>> Actually, Boosted 3 is +2/+2d6. If I was the sam in
> >>> question, I'd go for +2/+4d6 over +4/+2d6 any day. :)
> >>
> MB> Well, assuming no other reaction modifiers apply, the max base
starting
> MB> reaction would be 6.
>
> MB> So Mr Boosted/Synaptic has 8+5d6, Mr Wired has 10+3d6. So 50% of the
>
> MB> As for cost, Mr W has spent 165k, Mr B 290k... Mr B has used 0.2 less
> MB> essence, but 1.0 more Bio index.
>
> Yeah right but Mr. W has given up on the idea of just stoping beeing
> quick cause to my knowledge he can't use a Trigger. And other people
> cann be so slloooowwwwwww...... ;)

It's actually the other way round.

Mr. W could have choosen to have a Reflex Trigge installed together with the
Wired Reflexes, and thus be able to turn off the WR, or he can simpley have
the WR removed.

Mr. B on the other hand can never have his Boosted Reflexes removed, nor can
they be turned off. I'm not 100% sure about the Synaptic Accelerator, but I
don't think it can be turned off.

Lars
Message no. 13
From: dreamrhythm@*******.com (Dream Rhythm)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:22:18 -0400
Matt wrote:

>Well, assuming no other reaction modifiers apply, the max base starting
>reaction would be 6.

>So Mr Boosted/Synaptic has 8+5d6, Mr Wired has 10+3d6. So 50% of the
>time Mr Wired has 3 actions, otherwise he has 2. Only rarely (9.8%) of
>the time will Mr Bossted have 2 actions, and he will have 4 actions just
>as often. 80.4% of the time he will have 3 actions.

>So, only 4.9% of the time will Mr W have more actions than Mr B, however
>Mr B has one more action than Mr W 45.1% of the time and 4.9% of the
>time he will have 2 extra actions.... the remaining 45.1% of the time
>they will both have the same number of actions.

>As for cost, Mr W has spent 165k, Mr B 290k... Mr B has used 0.2 less
>essence, but 1.0 more Bio index.

But Mr. Wired can not only install a Reflex Trigger to prevent unwanted
occurances, but can also upgrade to Wird 3 at some point, if he so desired.

Fortune

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Message no. 14
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:30:52 +0100
Dream Rhythm wrote:
> But Mr. Wired can not only install a Reflex Trigger to prevent
> unwanted occurances, but can also upgrade to Wird 3 at some point, if
> he so desired.

All true, but Wired 3 is much more expensive in both money and
essence/bio than Boosted 3 and Synaptic 2, and only gets him to parity.
(+6/4d6 vs +2/5d6.. a 0.5 inititaive point bonus to Mr W on average)

Also the reflex trigger needs to be installed at the same time as the
wired reflexes and cannot be retrofitted... that would imply it is an
integral part of a particular set of wires, so to upgrade later would
require total replacement. So Mr W would, after having forked out 178k
on wired 2 + Reflex trigger, have to spend a further 513k on getting
wired 3 + Reflex trigger (though may be able to do a deal with the
clinic for them to buy his used 'ware for installing in someone else...
he might get say 50k back tops)

A total cost to Mr W of 641k (including rebate) and 5.2 essence.

Mr B has still only spent 290k, for 2.8 essence and 1.0 bio index....
that leaves him 350k to spend on other 'ware and 1.4 essence to play
with (compared to Mr W)... Ok, he is still a twitcher, but he is a lot
better off longterm than Mr W (barring the unusual situation where both
want to permanently remove their 'ware which Mr W can do, but Mr B
can't) And you can get permits for Boosted 3 and Synaptic 2, you can't
for Wired 3 (which can lead to a 3yr prison sentence...)

Personally, I also don't see much of a problem with allowing
betaware/cultured at start... just applying the higher availability it
entails makes most items unavailable using the limit of 8 anyway.

Matt


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Message no. 15
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:12:39 +0200
MB> Dream Rhythm wrote:
>> But Mr. Wired can not only install a Reflex Trigger to prevent
>> unwanted occurances, but can also upgrade to Wird 3 at some point, if
>> he so desired.

MB> All true, but Wired 3 is much more expensive in both money and
MB> essence/bio than Boosted 3 and Synaptic 2, and only gets him to parity.
MB> (+6/4d6 vs +2/5d6.. a 0.5 inititaive point bonus to Mr W on average)

MB> Also the reflex trigger needs to be installed at the same time as the
MB> wired reflexes and cannot be retrofitted... that would imply it is an
MB> integral part of a particular set of wires, so to upgrade later would
MB> require total replacement. So Mr W would, after having forked out 178k
MB> on wired 2 + Reflex trigger, have to spend a further 513k on getting
MB> wired 3 + Reflex trigger (though may be able to do a deal with the
MB> clinic for them to buy his used 'ware for installing in someone else...
MB> he might get say 50k back tops)

MB> A total cost to Mr W of 641k (including rebate) and 5.2 essence.

MB> Mr B has still only spent 290k, for 2.8 essence and 1.0 bio index....
MB> that leaves him 350k to spend on other 'ware and 1.4 essence to play
MB> with (compared to Mr W)... Ok, he is still a twitcher, but he is a lot
MB> better off longterm than Mr W (barring the unusual situation where both
MB> want to permanently remove their 'ware which Mr W can do, but Mr B
MB> can't) And you can get permits for Boosted 3 and Synaptic 2, you can't
MB> for Wired 3 (which can lead to a 3yr prison sentence...)

MB> Personally, I also don't see much of a problem with allowing
MB> betaware/cultured at start... just applying the higher availability it
MB> entails makes most items unavailable using the limit of 8 anyway.

MB> Matt


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---------------------------------------------

In the long run there will maybe the guard who sees Mr. B twitch at
the wrong moment... ;)
btw. there was never another way to upgrade from W2 to W3 without
having your Wired Reflexes removed and the reinstalled. (at least as
far as I can remember)

Greetz
Hexren
Message no. 16
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:05:26 +0200
Matthew Bond wrote:

> Dream Rhythm wrote:
>> But Mr. Wired can not only install a Reflex Trigger to prevent
>> unwanted occurances, but can also upgrade to Wird 3 at some point, if
>> he so desired.
>
> All true, but Wired 3 is much more expensive in both money and
> essence/bio than Boosted 3 and Synaptic 2, and only gets him to parity.
> (+6/4d6 vs +2/5d6.. a 0.5 inititaive point bonus to Mr W on average)

Mr. W's big advantage there (which he already had even with Wired 2)
is his Reaction, which you tend to underestimate. In an ambush or any
other kind of surprise round, Mr. W will kick Mr. B's ass (opposed
roll, 12 dice TN 8 VS 8 dice TN 12, chances are high Mr. B will never
know what hit him).

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 17
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:13:43 +0100
Max Noel wrote:
> Mr. W's big advantage there (which he already had even with Wired 2)
> is his Reaction, which you tend to underestimate. In an ambush or any
> other kind of surprise round, Mr. W will kick Mr. B's ass (opposed
> roll, 12 dice TN 8 VS 8 dice TN 12, chances are high Mr. B will never
> know what hit him).

What suprise rules are those?

I though suprise was the ambushers roll reaction looking for twos, and
the ambushees roll reaction looking for fours... you can only act in
your first action against those you have more successes than they have.

In a 'meeting' encounter, where both sides are equally unexpecting
action, everyone rolls reaction looking for fours.

This is all per SR3 p.109...

Matt


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Message no. 18
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:30:57 -0400
On Thursday, Aug 14, 2003, at 10:13 US/Eastern, Matthew Bond wrote:

> Max Noel wrote:
>> Mr. W's big advantage there (which he already had even with Wired 2)
>> is his Reaction, which you tend to underestimate. In an ambush or any
>> other kind of surprise round, Mr. W will kick Mr. B's ass (opposed
>> roll, 12 dice TN 8 VS 8 dice TN 12, chances are high Mr. B will never
>> know what hit him).
>
> What suprise rules are those?
>
> I though suprise was the ambushers roll reaction looking for twos, and
> the ambushees roll reaction looking for fours... you can only act in
> your first action against those you have more successes than they have.
>
> In a 'meeting' encounter, where both sides are equally unexpecting
> action, everyone rolls reaction looking for fours.
>
> This is all per SR3 p.109...
>
What is being said is in a surprise situation the number of initiative
dice is not as important as the reaction. Therefore, Mr. W will have
+6 on reaction while Mr. B will only have +2. This means in a surprise
situation Mr. W will roll 4 extra dice. However, if Mr. W was unlucky
enough to use those silly reflex triggers to have his wires off, Mr. B
will be better because Mr. W will not have any bonus and Mr. B will
have +2.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 19
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:19:29 +0100
Scott Harrison wrote:
> What is being said is in a surprise situation the number of initiative
> dice is not as important as the reaction. Therefore, Mr. W will have
> +6 on reaction while Mr. B will only have +2. This means in a
> surprise situation Mr. W will roll 4 extra dice. However, if Mr. W
> was unlucky enough to use those silly reflex triggers to have his
> wires off, Mr. B will be better because Mr. W will not have any bonus
> and Mr. B will have +2.

Oh, I agree, raw reaction is an important stat. I was just 'suprised'
(pun intended) by the rules max posted for suprise tests... they seemed
not to be the standard SR3 rules I am familiar with and seemed to
grossly favour higher reaction compared to SR3.

In any case, Mr B has cash and essence to spare compared to Mr W (if Mr
W goes for Wired 3)... He can just spend it on Reaction Enhancers... 4
points of reaction would cost him 1.2 essence and 240k. Total for Mr B
530k, 4 essence, 1 bio. Mr W is 513k (assuming Wired 3 from the start)
and 5.2 essence.

Mr B now has +6/+4d6, Mr W has +6/+3d6.... so for 27k and 1.2 less
essence you get an extra d6 inititaive.... seems worth it to me.

Matt


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Message no. 20
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:08:28 +0200
> Mr B now has +6/+4d6, Mr W has +6/+3d6.... so for 27k and 1.2 less
> essence you get an extra d6 inititaive.... seems worth it to me.

in the end Mr.W can have +12+3D6, which beats +8+4D6 i think

acceptin a bit of twitchyness, Mr.W can start with +14+3D6.

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 21
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:26:26 +0200
from myself ;-))

> > Mr B now has +6/+4d6, Mr W has +6/+3d6.... so for 27k and 1.2 less
> > essence you get an extra d6 inititaive.... seems worth it to me.
>
> in the end Mr.W can have +12+3D6, which beats +8+4D6 i think
>
> acceptin a bit of twitchyness, Mr.W can start with +14+3D6.

and boosted reflexes are known to be equipment for notsomuchprofessionals
(see: SSK)


> cya bluedragon7
Message no. 22
From: newshadowrun@*******.net (newshadowrun@*******.net)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:47:45 +0000
>From Bluedragon7

> and boosted reflexes are known to be equipment for notsomuchprofessionals
> (see: SSK)

Color me slow, but what is SSK? I'm not sure what color slow would be, but I'm
certain I'm that color. Thanks.
Message no. 23
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:59:39 +0200
> > and boosted reflexes are known to be equipment for
> notsomuchprofessionals
> > (see: SSK)
>
> Color me slow, but what is SSK? I'm not sure what color slow
> would be, but I'm
> certain I'm that color. Thanks.

ups ;-) Stassensamurai Katalog should have been SSC (Street Samurai Catalog)

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 24
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:08:40 -0400
On Thursday, Aug 14, 2003, at 12:47 US/Eastern,
newshadowrun@*******.net wrote:

>> From Bluedragon7
>
>> and boosted reflexes are known to be equipment for
>> notsomuchprofessionals
>> (see: SSK)
>
> Color me slow, but what is SSK? I'm not sure what color slow would be,
> but I'm
> certain I'm that color. Thanks.
>
>
I would say dark purple.

That is because if you use the word "sloe" instead the color dark
purple would be appropriate. :-)

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 25
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:33:56 +0100
----- Original Message -----
From: "bluedragon7" <bluedragon7@***.ch>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 5:08 PM
Subject: RE: Initiative Question


> > Mr B now has +6/+4d6, Mr W has +6/+3d6.... so for 27k and 1.2 less
> > essence you get an extra d6 inititaive.... seems worth it to me.
>
> in the end Mr.W can have +12+3D6, which beats +8+4D6 i think
>
> acceptin a bit of twitchyness, Mr.W can start with +14+3D6.

Only if he gets stuff Alpha'd or better... Wired 3 + Reaction Enhancers
6 = 6.8 Essence.... 7.0 with a reflex trigger... and is already 860k+.

Sure, if money is no object then Mr W can get a higher reaction than Mr
B.

But at the highest levels the +4 reaction makes less of a difference to
suprise tests, as both are rolling so many dice. Furthermore, for the
same money Mr W spends Mr B can get other 'wares that will make up some
of the reaction difference by increasing it directly or indirectly
through adding to Int or Qui... as well as getting the benefits of
whatever the other 'ware provides.

Basically, one of the early contentions was that Mr B is 'giving up'
something to Mr W. I think that the arguement is not so clear cut.

Matt


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Message no. 26
From: bluedragon7@***.ch (bluedragon7)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:08:57 +0200
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com]On Behalf Of Matthew Bond
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 9:34 PM

> > in the end Mr.W can have +12+3D6, which beats +8+4D6 i think
> >
> > acceptin a bit of twitchyness, Mr.W can start with +14+3D6.
>
> Only if he gets stuff Alpha'd or better... Wired 3 + Reaction Enhancers
> 6 = 6.8 Essence.... 7.0 with a reflex trigger... and is already 860k+.

i was opting for used alpha and no trigger,..

> Sure, if money is no object then Mr W can get a higher reaction than Mr
> B.

u cant get boosted and synaptic as used, so moneywise Mr.W has an advantage

> But at the highest levels the +4 reaction makes less of a difference to
> suprise tests, as both are rolling so many dice. Furthermore, for the

remember, if Mr. W gets one more success, Mr.B cant do anything against him

> same money Mr W spends Mr B can get other 'wares that will make up some
> of the reaction difference by increasing it directly or indirectly
> through adding to Int or Qui... as well as getting the benefits of
> whatever the other 'ware provides.

actually i think initiative is overated, i stick to +1+1D6 as other ware is
much more important.

> Basically, one of the early contentions was that Mr B is 'giving up'
> something to Mr W. I think that the arguement is not so clear cut.

what he is giving up is primarily the options of removal and a trigger, and
to me, having played since first edition, boosted reflexes have a stigma of
being just second rate

cya bluedragon7
Message no. 27
From: dreamrhythm@*******.com (Dream Rhythm)
Subject: Initiative Question
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:26:31 -0400
Matt wrote:

>Personally, I also don't see much of a problem with allowing
>betaware/cultured at start... just applying the higher availability it
>entails makes most items unavailable using the limit of 8 anyway.

I totally agree with this. :)

My point with Wired vs. Boosted is that eventually money will not be a
problem in a campaign. Mr. Wired can upgrade not only his wires, but the
grade to Alpha (Beta...etc.), while Mr. Boosted is stuck with what he
originally installed.

Fortune

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