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Message no. 1
From: Ed equine@***********.com
Subject: Init Question
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 12:05:13 -0500
I have an Initiative question that the shaman in my group brought up. I
tried to answer but it did not help him.

He has one turn this round on phase 9. He wants to summon a city
spirit. I told him he could spit out a quick command for it on the same
turn. (I think this is against the rules since Free actions should be taken
at the beginning of a turn..right) Anyways I told him the spirit would not
get to do anything until the next round. He thinks the spirit should be
able to move on the next turn of the round we are on. Is there something
in the book about this that I am missing? I mean spirits are fast so can
they start off right then or do they have to wait until the end of the
round so they can roll initiative?

Ed
Message no. 2
From: Number Ten Ox Number_10_Ox@**********.com
Subject: Init Question
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:24:36 -0700 (PDT)
--- Ed <equine@***********.com> wrote:

> He has one turn this round on phase 9. He wants to summon a city
> spirit. I told him he could spit out a quick command for it on the same
> turn. (I think this is against the rules since Free actions should be
> taken at the beginning of a turn..right)
You're both wrong and right. Free Actions can be taken any time, I think,
but to command a spirit is a Simple action. So if he summons a spirit this
turn, on Phase 9, he will not be able to give it a command until the next
time *his* turn comes around -- which will be next round.

Spirits roll initiative when they are summoned. So... let's say your
Shaman has a much higher initiative. Say he goes on a 15.

Phase 15: Shaman summons a city spirit. City spirit rolls initiative,
getting a 32. Since this is Phase 15, two actions of the spirit's are
wasted (32 and 22).

Phase 12: The City Spirit holds action, waiting for orders.

Phase 5: The shaman gets to act, gasping out "Get those guys!". The spirit
uses its held action.

Phase 2: The spirit goes again.

(I don't have my rulebook with me, but I think that's how it works.)



====--Number 10 Ox.
"It's a big yellow rubber ducky."
"Is it rigger-driven?"


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Message no. 3
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Init Question
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 20:05:44 +0200
According to Ed, at 12:05 on 29 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> He has one turn this round on phase 9. He wants to summon a city
> spirit. I told him he could spit out a quick command for it on the same
> turn. (I think this is against the rules since Free actions should be taken
> at the beginning of a turn..right)

It is against the rules, but not for the reason you think :) SR3 does not
specify when free actions take place, so I've always ruled you can take
them at any point -- free the complex, simple-free-simple, etc. would all
be allowed. The only thing is that, if you take a free action on someone
else's phase, you go last.

The reason your player would not be able to command the spirit, BTW, is
because commanding a spirit is a complex action, and so is summoning a
nature spirit.

> Anyways I told him the spirit would not get to do anything until the
> next round. He thinks the spirit should be able to move on the next
> turn of the round we are on. Is there something in the book about this
> that I am missing? I mean spirits are fast so can they start off right
> then or do they have to wait until the end of the round so they can
> roll initiative?

Spirits "will Delay Actions to wait for commands if they have none to
follow." (SR3 page 188.) Since I assume that _everyone_ has an initiative,
they just haven't necessarily rolled for it, I would say the spirit can
immediately start carrying out the action.

Although I don't think it's not mentioned in SR3, I would roll for the
spirit's initiative and make it lose all the actions it would have had
before the shaman.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: Ed equine@***********.com
Subject: Init Question
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:26:56 -0500
Ahhh now I see. It would help if I looked through the list of actions now
and then. I just assumed you talked to the spirit so it was a free action.
:) I also like the idea of rolling for the spirits init and then subtract
the phases it already missed.

Thanks alot...the game can now continue!

Ed
Message no. 5
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Init Question
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:30:59 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 29 Sep 1999, Number Ten Ox wrote:

> Phase 15: Shaman summons a city spirit. City spirit rolls initiative,
> getting a 32. Since this is Phase 15, two actions of the spirit's are
> wasted (32 and 22).
>
> Phase 12: The City Spirit holds action, waiting for orders.
>
> Phase 5: The shaman gets to act, gasping out "Get those guys!". The spirit
> uses its held action.
>
> Phase 2: The spirit goes again.

You were good up until this point. After using a held action, you
cannot go again until phase-10. That means if your initiative score is
15, and you hold your action until 6, you do *not* get to go again on a 5.
In fact, you won't get to go again this turn. The only way you would is
if you used your held action on say, and 11, in which case you'd next act
on phase 1.
Also note that this is using the SR2 initative rule, as the way
passes and held actions function is a little different in SR3.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Message no. 6
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Init Question
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 16:12:22 -0500
=The reason your player would not be able to command the spirit, BTW, is
¾cause commanding a spirit is a complex action, and so is summoning a
=nature spirit.

Commanding a spirit that is already astrally present (a conjoured nature
spirit or a called elemtnal) is actually only a simple action (p186 SR3),
but that does not change the outcome here any. Its not a free action, and
conjuring or calling are not only complex, they are also exclusive; you
can't do ANY magic in the same action.
In the same action / pass, you could give the spirit some information,
but you could not command it. If you had the "spirit affinity" edge for
that spirit type, it might decide to act on its own, however, given that
info.


=Although I don't think it's not mentioned in SR3, I would roll for the
=spirit's initiative and make it lose all the actions it would have had
¾fore the shaman.


I believe that is exactly how we have done it as well. When the spirit
appears, it rolls its initiative, and looses any actions from passes that
have already gone by.

Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Init Question
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:21:52 +0200
According to Sebastian Wiers, at 16:12 on 29 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Commanding a spirit that is already astrally present (a conjoured nature
> spirit or a called elemtnal) is actually only a simple action (p186 SR3),

You're right. I looked through SR3 for the list of services, found the
heading "Call Nature Spirit" and "Command a Spirit" on page 106, and
without reading further assumed the former meant "Summon Nature Spirit" (a
complex action) -- but it doesn't, that one is on page 108, and I was
looking through the list of simple actions...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Jeremy Baker meroeandjeremy@*******.com.au
Subject: Init Question
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:49:34 +1000
>> He has one turn this round on phase 9. He wants to summon a city
>> spirit. I told him he could spit out a quick command for it on the same
>> turn. (I think this is against the rules since Free actions should be
taken
>> at the beginning of a turn..right)

>It is against the rules, but not for the reason you think :) SR3 does not
>specify when free actions take place, so I've always ruled you can take
>them at any point -- free the complex, simple-free-simple, etc. would all
>be allowed. The only thing is that, if you take a free action on someone
>else's phase, you go last.

P.105 SR3 states, "A character may take a free action during their
own combat phase, and during the combat phase of any other character, as
long as it is declared. Only one free action may be made by each character
during any given combat phase. A character may not take a free action prior
to his first combat phase in the first inititive pass.
Free actions taken by characters during combat phases other than
their own always take place last in the combat phase."
NOTE: It also says under 'Simple Actions' that a Free action
may be taken in place of a Simple action. This could imply that you may only
do two Simple actions or a Simple and a Free action (or two Free actions)
during your Combat Phase, however I think it just means that the options
availiable for Free actions are also availiable to be used as Simple
actions, if desired.

>The reason your player would not be able to command the spirit, BTW, is
>because commanding a spirit is a complex action, and so is summoning a
>nature spirit.

"Calling" a Nature Spirit that has previously been placed on
"Standby" (ie. has already been "Summoned") is a Simple action.
"Commanding" a spirit (Nature or Elemental), is a Simple action;
more than one spirit can be commanded, if they are all given the same
command.
"Summoning" a Nature Spirit is a Complex action.
"Calling" an Elemental that has been previously "Summoned" and
"Bound" is a Complex action. More than one may be "Called" if they are
of
the same type.

>> Anyways I told him the spirit would not get to do anything until the
>> next round. He thinks the spirit should be able to move on the next
>> turn of the round we are on. Is there something in the book about this
>> that I am missing? I mean spirits are fast so can they start off right
>> then or do they have to wait until the end of the round so they can
>> roll initiative?

>Spirits "will Delay Actions to wait for commands if they have none to
>follow." (SR3 page 188.) Since I assume that _everyone_ has an initiative,
>they just haven't necessarily rolled for it, I would say the spirit can
>immediately start carrying out the action.

>Although I don't think it's not mentioned in SR3, I would roll for the
>spirit's initiative and make it lose all the actions it would have had
>before the shaman.


This would be one method of dealing with the situation, however
since SR3 uses the term "Delay Actions" when saying that the Spirit will
wait to receive orders. I think it would be correct to rule such that the
spirit would roll its initiative normally, then if the roll indicates that
it could have acted earlier in the Initiative Pass then the Phase in which
it was Called/Commanded (remembering that for a Nature Spirit these are both
Simple actions so they can occur in the same Combat Phase), then that action
has been Delayed normally, and hence the Spirit may Declare an action for
the very next Phase, if that suits its purpose, and also it could act on
subsequent Initiative Passes, according to its original initiative score.
I would rule though, that if the spirit was Called/Summoned in the
second or subsequent Passes, then it has lost its actions for the first or
previous Passes, and hence you would subtract the appropriate value (10, 20,
etc) from its 'original' initiative score for the determination of exactly
what Phase it may act (or Delay) in for the Pass in which it is
Called/Summoned.

(NOTE: someone made a comment regarding Delayed actions that was
correct for SR2, but NOT SR3. SR3 p103 states a "character delaying an
action in this manner does not lose his original initiative score. Once that
pass is over, the gamesmaster subtracts ten from the original initiative
score of that character as usual to determine when they act in the next
pass."
ie. If someone gets 36 for their initiative score, then on
the First Pass they may act on Phase 36 or they may Delay it to say Phase 17
or even Phase 2, etc. No matter what they choose, on the Second Pass, their
action may occur on Phase 26 or be Delayed until later in the Pass, Third
Pass they may act anytime from Phase 16 down, and then from Phase 6 down on
the Fourth Pass.)

Another point to remember with Spirits in combat is that they will
be in Astral Space when first "Called/Summoned" to the initiative situation.
Hence when rolling their initial initiative it will be
Reaction(Force)+20+1d6. If they are required to do something that requires
their presence in Physical Form, then they must switch Form, this is a
Simple action for the Spirit. Also if "a spirit in astral form changes to
physical form, it is ineligible for another action for two Initiative
Passes" p188 SR3 Noting that at the start of the next turn, if it is still
in Physical Form, its initiative roll will be
Reaction(Force+/-Modifier)+10+1d6.

JB.
Message no. 9
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Init Question
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 19:44:56 +0200
According to Jeremy Baker, at 19:49 on 30 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> >It is against the rules, but not for the reason you think :) SR3 does not
> >specify when free actions take place, so I've always ruled you can take
> >them at any point -- free the complex, simple-free-simple, etc. would all
> >be allowed. The only thing is that, if you take a free action on someone
> >else's phase, you go last.
>
> P.105 SR3 states, "A character may take a free action during their
> own combat phase, and during the combat phase of any other character, as
> long as it is declared. Only one free action may be made by each character
> during any given combat phase. A character may not take a free action prior
> to his first combat phase in the first inititive pass.

Yes, I know that. But it doesn't say at which point during _your_ Combat
Phase that Free Action takes place. IOW, if it's before or after your
other actions, inbetween them (if you take two Simple Actions), or what.
That is what I was trying to say, not that you _get_ a Free Action when
it's your action.

> "Calling" a Nature Spirit that has previously been placed on
> "Standby" (ie. has already been "Summoned") is a Simple action.

Again, I know. I was reading too fast (which is usually the case when I
make slip-ups like this).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Jeremy Baker meroeandjeremy@*******.com.au
Subject: Init Question
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 18:27:06 +1000
-From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>


-According to Jeremy Baker, at 19:49 on 30 Sep 99, the word on
-the street was...

> >It is against the rules, but not for the reason you think :) SR3 does not
> >specify when free actions take place, so I've always ruled you can take
> >them at any point -- free the complex, simple-free-simple, etc. would all
> >be allowed. The only thing is that, if you take a free action on someone
> >else's phase, you go last.
>
> P.105 SR3 states, "A character may take a free action during their
> own combat phase, and during the combat phase of any other character, as
> long as it is declared. Only one free action may be made by each character
> during any given combat phase. A character may not take a free action
prior
> to his first combat phase in the first inititive pass.

-Yes, I know that. But it doesn't say at which point during _your_ Combat
-Phase that Free Action takes place. IOW, if it's before or after your
-other actions, inbetween them (if you take two Simple Actions), or what.
-That is what I was trying to say, not that you _get_ a Free Action when
-it's your action.

My apologies if you took this as an argument against your statement.
My intent was to back up your comment, that was prefaced with "I've always
ruled," regarding what Phases you are allowed to take Free actions in, with
the appropriate quote from the book.
BTW, you are indeed correct regarding the order that actions may be
taken in, p104 SR3 states "You may take Free, Simple and Complex actions in
any order during your Combat Phase."

JB.

P.S. What does "IOW" stand for?
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Init Question
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 10:33:13 +0200
According to Jeremy Baker, at 18:27 on 1 Oct 99, the word on
the street was...

> P.S. What does "IOW" stand for?

"In other words."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Het is een boek om in het donker te lezen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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