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Message no. 1
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:08:54 PST
>Well, yes... But just because there are no documented cases of mages
>becoming insect "shamans" doesn't mean they can't.

Mages don't become Shamans, and vice versa. Remember, the Totem picks
YOU. Not the other way around.

> Rules-technically, an
>insect shaman is a mage -- they get no totem modifiers, no
disadvantages,
>no "you have to act this way or else..." (except of course having to
breed
>as many spirits as they can, but I wouldn't call that the same as a
totem
>disadvantage).

For some reason, many people fail to see the logic of "Insect Shamans
are meant to be played as NPCs". It is because of this logic, however,
that no bonuses are listed(Second Axiom of Role-playing: Give the mods
and they'll play them- whether or not they are supposed to).
But, suppose you are right. By the above logic, Coyote Shamans are
not shamans either. After all, they get no totem modifiers, no
disadvantages, etc, etc.
And I think having a Queen kill you or use you to host a spirit can
be sonsidered "you have to act this way or else". <g>
Shamans are not mages because they cannot summon anything of the
elements. They are related to a type of animal and do hold it's
"beliefs"(e.g. Ants must work in teams). As it says in Bug City, Insect
Totems are like no other Totems in Shadowrun- and it is by using the
word Totem that shamanism is implied, and Hermetic Magic is ruled out.


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides


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Message no. 2
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:22:51 EST
In a message dated 98-02-28 15:09:44 EST, nomad74@*******.COM writes:

> >Well, yes... But just because there are no documented cases of mages
> >becoming insect "shamans" doesn't mean they can't.
>
> Mages don't become Shamans, and vice versa. Remember, the Totem picks
> YOU. Not the other way around.
>
Okay, but here comes the BIG question. If the Totem does the picking, why
can't it pick the "Hermetic Mage" and switch him over? Sure it means getting
used to things, but it could be done...

-K
Message no. 3
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:28:52 PST
>Okay, but here comes the BIG question. If the Totem does the picking,
why
>can't it pick the "Hermetic Mage" and switch him over? Sure it means
getting
>used to things, but it could be done...


Show me a book and a page number and I'll consider it. Until then, I
disbelieve. *Takes a point of Strain*.


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: Kat Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:35:35 -0500
Ereskanti wrote:
> Okay, but here comes the BIG question. If the Totem does the picking, why
> can't it pick the "Hermetic Mage" and switch him over? Sure it means
getting
> used to things, but it could be done...

Yes, but we are talking about a major shift of focus. The difference
between a Shaman and a Hermetic Mage are more than what SR indicates in
its rules. We are talking about a major philosophical difference in
perception of reality. It is unlikely that a totem will ever choose a
mage, unless he should have been a Shaman in the first place.

The problem with a Mage switching to Shamanism, is that he would have
to unlearn most of what he used.
Message no. 5
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:05:08 -0700
> Okay, but here comes the BIG question. If the Totem does the picking, why
> can't it pick the "Hermetic Mage" and switch him over? Sure it means
getting
> used to things, but it could be done...

Actually..If you take SR novels into account..It can
happen..IIRC..This is exactally what happened to our interepid Magic
user in the Secrets of Power series..He could not [for religious
resons] easilly accept the idea of magic and certainly not
totems..However, when his abilities manifested [after he had an
jack implanted..another mistake]..he trained as a hermetic and was
after a fashion able to use his power..but then Dog comes trotting in
and eventually sets things straight..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
Kind of a bummer. Gettin' your butt kicked by a dead guy.
- Lt Col McQueen
The truth is a three edged sword. - Kosh
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are. - B.Bonsai
Message no. 6
From: MgkellyMJ7 <MgkellyMJ7@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 01:30:16 EST
In a message dated 98-03-01 01:11:56 EST, you write:

<< he trained as a hermetic and was
after a fashion able to use his power..but then Dog comes trotting in
and eventually sets things straight.. >>

IIRC, sam Verner was able to use only the most basic spells that Sally Tsung
taught him, and then only after he had altered tthem to his own patterns and
symbolism. sounds like a Magic theory roll to me.

Mgkelly
Message no. 7
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:29:11 -0700
> IIRC, sam Verner was able to use only the most basic spells that Sally Tsung
> taught him, and then only after he had altered tthem to his own patterns and
> symbolism. sounds like a Magic theory roll to me.

Exactally..And once he accepted Dog..the power flowed much more
freely..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
Kind of a bummer. Gettin' your butt kicked by a dead guy.
- Lt Col McQueen
The truth is a three edged sword. - Kosh
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are. - B.Bonsai
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:54:34 +0100
The Vagabond said on 12:08/28 Feb 98...

> >Well, yes... But just because there are no documented cases of mages
> >becoming insect "shamans" doesn't mean they can't.
>
> Mages don't become Shamans, and vice versa. Remember, the Totem picks
> YOU. Not the other way around.

If you look closely, you'll notice there is the word "insect" between
"becoming" and ""shaman"". Insect totems aren't totems like
Bear, Wolf,
Cat, and what have you, which is IMO demonstrated by the fact that normal
shamans (whatever those may be) don't change totems to the best of my
knowledge, but they _can_ become insect shamans. For example the Rat
shaman who became an Ant shaman in one of the adventures (name left out
for spoiler reasons). I say that if a shaman can start to work with insect
spirits, then so can a mage.

> For some reason, many people fail to see the logic of "Insect Shamans
> are meant to be played as NPCs". It is because of this logic, however,
> that no bonuses are listed(Second Axiom of Role-playing: Give the mods
> and they'll play them- whether or not they are supposed to).

That's a totally bogus reasoning, if you ask me. That would mean that if
you put a Lion shaman in an adventure, that shaman shouldn't get his or
her totem modifiers either because "it's an NPC".

> But, suppose you are right. By the above logic, Coyote Shamans are
> not shamans either. After all, they get no totem modifiers, no
> disadvantages, etc, etc.

With the difference that Coyote shamans don't summon Coyote spirits, and
that there's no Queen (King?) Coyote who gives the shaman power, which
gets taken away once that particular spirit is killed. Insect shamans lose
all their power if the Queen they work with is killed somehow, despite
there being several (hundreds? thousands?) more Queens of that type of
insect.

> And I think having a Queen kill you or use you to host a spirit can
> be sonsidered "you have to act this way or else". <g>

But it's a completely different kind of disadvantage than those of a
normal totem, like a Dog shaman having to protect his or her friends.

> Shamans are not mages because they cannot summon anything of the
> elements. They are related to a type of animal and do hold it's
> "beliefs"(e.g. Ants must work in teams). As it says in Bug City, Insect
> Totems are like no other Totems in Shadowrun- and it is by using the
> word Totem that shamanism is implied, and Hermetic Magic is ruled out.

IMHO the only reason they're called totems is because they have to do with
an animal, not because they are true totems.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
They say they know what's best for me.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 9
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:21:46 PST
I said:
>> Shamans are not mages because they cannot summon anything of the
>> elements. They are related to a type of animal and do hold it's
>> "beliefs"(e.g. Ants must work in teams). As it says in Bug City,
Insect
>> Totems are like no other Totems in Shadowrun- and it is by using the
>> word Totem that shamanism is implied, and Hermetic Magic is ruled
out.

Gurth said:
>
>IMHO the only reason they're called totems is because they have to do
with
>an animal, not because they are true totems.

Well, you stick with your opinion. I'll stick with facts. I've seen
more evidence that Insects are Totems than to prove that they are not.


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish."
-Euripides


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 10
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:43:45 +0000
On 28 Feb 98 at 15:22, Ereskanti wrote:


> > Mages don't become Shamans, and vice versa. Remember, the Totem picks
> > YOU. Not the other way around.
> >
> Okay, but here comes the BIG question. If the Totem does the picking, why
> can't it pick the "Hermetic Mage" and switch him over? Sure it means
getting
> used to things, but it could be done...

Well, it depends on how you see the totem. If the totem is actually nothing
more then a shipload of self imposed geasa and mental blocks, someone with
the hermetic piece of mind will not be able to switch to the shamanic
tradition. If, OTOH, a totem is more then an "imaginary friend", it would
be possible. What if Hermann, the hermetic, is so bear-like that at one
time of his life Bear chooses to take him into his hairy family?
Or what about a hermetic who thinks he's a shaman?


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:08:23 +1000
The Vagabond writes:
> For some reason, many people fail to see the logic of "Insect Shamans
>are meant to be played as NPCs". It is because of this logic, however,
>that no bonuses are listed(Second Axiom of Role-playing: Give the mods
>and they'll play them- whether or not they are supposed to).


The advantages of Insect Shamans is the threat rating.

The disadvantages are being the slave of the Queen.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:35:54 +0100
The Vagabond said on 11:21/ 1 Mar 98...

> Well, you stick with your opinion. I'll stick with facts. I've seen
> more evidence that Insects are Totems than to prove that they are not.

Not to turn this into a flame war, but I don't like people talking down to
me about "my opinion" as if theirs is the only right one -- yours is only
an opinion, just like mine. You read in "the facts" that insect totems are
totems like all the others, my interpretation of those same "facts" is
that they're not. Let's leave it at that, okay?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
They say they know what's best for me.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 13
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:13:10 PST
>The Vagabond said on 11:21/ 1 Mar 98...
>
>> Well, you stick with your opinion. I'll stick with facts. I've
seen
>> more evidence that Insects are Totems than to prove that they are
not.
>
Yeesh... that does sound harsh doesn't it? Sorry...

>Not to turn this into a flame war, but I don't like people talking down
to
>me about "my opinion" as if theirs is the only right one -- yours is
only
>an opinion, just like mine. You read in "the facts" that insect totems
are
>totems like all the others, my interpretation of those same "facts" is
>that they're not. Let's leave it at that, okay?

I apologize, I didn't mean that kind of tone. I guess I was having a
bad hair day. At any rate, what I meant was when I read Bug City or the
Grimiore about Insects, it clearly says that they are totems. Granted,
they are unique, but totems nonetheless. I could evenually be cohearced
into believing that silly Mages-turn-into-Shamans retoric, especially
with the "Toxic Mages" out there(I'm surprised they haven't been brought
up as ammo against my point). But I don't see how Insect Totems can be
classified as anything else.
My opinion? If it is, it's one formed on the basis of facts that I
read. I didn't mean to make it sound like your opinion wasn't
important, of course it is, I just meant that I'm no seeing how you are
getting the substance for this opinion. If you got it from a book, then
please share.
Again, I apologizing for sounding so rude- I'll try to sound like a
more kinder, gentler Vagabond[George Bush voice].
-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Fall seven times, stand up eight."
-Japanese Proverb
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 14
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:24:44 +0000
The Vagabond said on 11:21/ 1 Mar 98...
> Well, you stick with your opinion. I'll stick with facts. I've seen
> more evidence that Insects are Totems than to prove that they are not.

They have more than enough differences from totems not to be
standard totems. I also belive that in some books the insect 'shaman'
has been a hermetic. (Can't remember which, unfortunately, so
consider that unsubstantiated rumor. Hmm.. Threats, it was. Perhaps
that was about some form of masking, but it needn't be. Um. Doh.).
(NFS failure - server Brain not responding. Keep trying.).

At any rate, I am thinking of an upcoming adventure which includes
insect spirits, and after some consideration I am inclined to change
their nature from totemic to a form of ally/free spirit, and thus the
caster does not need to be a shaman - allies can be summoned by
either kind og mage. That is, of course, a house rule/GM's call kind
of thing, but it seems to fit better.

BTW: This mail was sent Re: Gurth's reply to the exact
same post by Vagabond. I agree with his sentiments completely, but
they are of no great importance to what I had to say, so I snipped
it.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Insect
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:14:18 EST
In a message dated 98-03-02 08:35:56 EST, gurth@******.NL writes:

> Not to turn this into a flame war, but I don't like people talking down to
> me about "my opinion" as if theirs is the only right one -- yours is only
> an opinion, just like mine. You read in "the facts" that insect totems are
> totems like all the others, my interpretation of those same "facts" is
> that they're not. Let's leave it at that, okay?
>
NO GURTH!!! HOW many times have we all told we are right and you are
wrong...come on, how many more times must we go through this...repeat after
me...

I am Wrong, They are Right, I am Wrong, They are Right...

If you say this fast enough, it becomes something more...

I Love You, You Love Me, I Love You, You Love Me...

And then you put on a big purple dinosaur suit and run away to make millions
of dollars making little children believe in things their hypocritical parents
are incapable of themselves...

Okay, I've ranted enough...Have fun Gurth...and remember...I am....

-K ;)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Insect, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!