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Message no. 1
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:15:16 -0400
The (IMO) best solution to Deckers is also one of the simplest ones:

Make The Matrix Real Time.

Every action the Decker takes, takes just as long as an action on the
physical world. Sure, it may not be realistic (But hell, niether is the
Matrix itself), but it solves a lot of problems with coinciding stuff.

The second point is that you need, as a GM, to integrate the decking stuff.
Deckers are essential to a Shadowrun team not for their "Legwork" hacking,
but for what they can do for you on a run. YOu have a decker in the host
while you're running on a building. He can hit most security, shut off
locks, all sorts of things.

Tjhe problem is in the perception, not in the execution. Change the way
you think about Deckers.

Bull


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Message no. 2
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:31:01 +0200
(>) Bull Left this message on the BBS at 10:15 PM 8/21/2000

>Tjhe problem is in the perception, not in the execution. Change the way
>you think about Deckers.

I see I'm doomed to be misinterpreted forever. No, that's not the problem.
Neither is the (non-existent) complexity of the rules, nor is interlacing
the actions between players
the problem is one, and simple (only solutionless so far) <underlined>
Players lacking interest </underlined>.
Please, please try to understand, there are too many replies to my message
there are totally of the question. and since it's like the third time I say
it I take every right to be a tiny bit annoyed.
Some people helped with their answers like the one about summarizing what
happened in the matrix etc. Some gave me more problems to think about like
Gurth with thinking how the matrix really is repetitive...
So, to everyone actually reading this long winded discussion (hell, I
stopped reading Sr Casting Couch and Re:Fw: Want a new limb like ages ago)
Unless you got a direct answer to that, don't bother.
Thanks,
Don't take this too harsh, It isn't meant to be so (Real reason: I just
formatted and reinstalled windows 3 times, and Im totally serious, 7 hour
work, to discover the problem was a simple "Turn off Bus Mastering" on my
Video card.)

-Nimster

P.S (ooh, I like those instead of writing a whole new message! :) )
I'm travelling to NY for a fortnight in about a month. I'll appreciate
anyone helping with (shadowrun/RPG related) attractions and other
interesting things.

(>) Nimster
There is no spoon.
Message no. 3
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@***.net
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:01:29 -0700
At 07:31 AM 8/22/00 +0200, Nimster wrote:

>Don't take this too harsh, It isn't meant to be so (Real reason: I just
>formatted and reinstalled windows 3 times, and Im totally serious, 7 hour
>work, to discover the problem was a simple "Turn off Bus Mastering" on my
>Video card.)

Being an IT professional in real life, I really have to wonder -- do you
think that the console cowboys of the Sixth World have to put up with crap
like that?

Do deckers with Computer B/R:8 still have to on occasion take their decks
to the equivalent of CompUSA or Fry's for service only to be mocked and
ridiculed by the guy behind the counter who personifies the comic store guy
from "The Simpsons?"

Think they hang out on Shadowland ranting and foaming at their virtual
mouths about the 2060's variant of the Windows/Linux debate? Are there
different flavors of DeckOS that spark holy wars among the
cyber-cognoscenti the way East Coast vs. West Coast Unix does?

How about those guys who scoff and sneer at the Fairlight Excalibur and
anyone who uses one simply because they have a perfectly good Radio Shack
CD-100 in the attic that can still hack ARES without breaking a sweat?

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 4
From: Douglas Browne dejaffa@*********.net
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:04:13 -0400
> Think they hang out on Shadowland ranting and foaming at their virtual
> mouths about the 2060's variant of the Windows/Linux debate? Are there
> different flavors of DeckOS that spark holy wars among the
> cyber-cognoscenti the way East Coast vs. West Coast Unix does?

So, what's the SR equivilant of Slashdot.com?

--Mikey
Message no. 5
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 06:04:49 -0600
At 08:04 22/08/2000 -0400, Douglas Browne wrote:

>So, what's the SR equivilant of Slashdot.com?

Certain portions of Shadowland, certainly.

Adam
--
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
< The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com >
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< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader: http://lists.dumpshock.com >
Message no. 6
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 16:52:43 -0400
At 07:31 AM 8/22/00 +0200, Nimster wrote:
>(>) Bull Left this message on the BBS at 10:15 PM 8/21/2000
>
>>Tjhe problem is in the perception, not in the execution. Change the way
>>you think about Deckers.
>
>I see I'm doomed to be misinterpreted forever.
>
Sorry Nimster... This was more justa general reply than a reply directly
to you... I just used your post as a jumping off point :]

Deckers in general get the unloved step-child treatment polay players and
GM's alike, and since they can be, IMO, the most powerful of all the
"classes", I think this is a shame.

Bull


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Message no. 7
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:36:13 -0500
on 8/22/00 3:52 PM, Bull at bull@***********.com e-scribed:

> Think they hang out on Shadowland ranting and foaming at their virtual
> mouths about the 2060's variant of the Windows/Linux debate?

Makes me think abotu what the popular OS is by then. Something tells me
that, like now, a complicated-but-powerful OS like Linux (and totally open
source) is the OS of choice for Deckers, but something with native
java-style stuff that allows whipping together hacks on the fly.

As far as the average home user, who knows which ends up being more popular:
iQuality or MarketingSoft. Maybe a complete upstart from the East.

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 8
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 07:44:53 -0600
I just had an idea for integrating deckers, but it would require a major
revamp of the matrix rules.

On the short lived US TV series Tech War, running the matrix was handled by
two people. One person would jack in and deck the matrix, the other person
would stand overwatch and monitor the decker and the matrix from a "turtle"
computer. The decker was able to see and react to stuff within close
proximity. The monitor was able to give them directions on routes to take
to get to the target, when IC was incoming, and routes to take to get out.

It would take some work to convert this to Shadowrun, but I think it would
be worth it. The decker would still get the thrill of jacking into the
matrix, and other party members would get to participate, or at least see
what's going on, as they monitor the matrix and keep an eye out for the decker.

The decker's rules wouldn't change to much, except that their range of
perception would be lowered.

The monitor could set his perspective to the following: point blank -
monitoring the decker's vital signs, short - seeing what the decker can see
from short to long range, medium - what the decker can see at extreme
range, long - the LAN (the SR equivalent escapes me) that the decker is in,
extreme - the WAN (again, the SR equivalent escapes me) that the decker is
on.

The monitor could have multiple screens, each one to monitor the decker
from a different perspective. Course, doing this would apply negative
modifiers to the monitor's perception tests. Multiple monitors could split
up the overwatch duties.

Just a thought :)

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston
Message no. 9
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 20:50:02 +0200
(>) Andrew Gryphon Left this message on the BBS at 10:36 PM 8/24/2000
>on 8/22/00 3:52 PM, Bull at bull@***********.com e-scribed:
>
> > Think they hang out on Shadowland ranting and foaming at their virtual
> > mouths about the 2060's variant of the Windows/Linux debate?
>
>Makes me think abotu what the popular OS is by then. Something tells me
>that, like now, a complicated-but-powerful OS like Linux (and totally open
>source) is the OS of choice for Deckers, but something with native
>java-style stuff that allows whipping together hacks on the fly.
>
>As far as the average home user, who knows which ends up being more popular:
>iQuality or MarketingSoft. Maybe a complete upstart from the East.

I think they have no OS. It's all run from the net. One OS for everybody -
the Matrix. your computer is like a host on the matrix. It can be sculpted,
or be left bare...
I still think Otaku's are ridiculous tho. Storing .jpgs in your memory for
example... How do you view them if you simply try to remember? as 101010100
or do you see the picture?
It's all so silly.
(>) Nimster
There is no spoon.
Message no. 10
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:54:30 -0700
From: "Nimster" <nimster@*********.net.il>
> I think they have no OS. It's all run from the net. One OS for everybody -
> the Matrix. your computer is like a host on the matrix. It can be
sculpted,
> or be left bare...

That doesn't seem to match what little we know about how decks work though.
The MPCP *is* the Operating System as well as the CPU and bus. It's all
combined into a single rating though.

Seen in this light the MPCP is a firmware OS (since you technically don't
need ANY active memory to use a deck - although you cant use anything but
persona programs). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to check the date the
game was made against what computers were around at the time. Anyone else
see the simularities between cyberdecks in SR and Atari STs, Amigas, PCjr,
and the C-64/128?

> I still think Otaku's are ridiculous tho. Storing .jpgs in your memory for
> example... How do you view them if you simply try to remember? as
101010100
> or do you see the picture?

They need external storage memory in order to download anything. Everything
else is realtime machine code that their ASIST converter translates to
simsense and they can somehow automatically utilize and manipulate. Silly
and kinda lame I'll admit, but at least its remained self consistent pretty
much since the otaku were introduced (Although the writers seemed confused
as to what they wanted the otaku to be when writing Denver).

Kenneth
"On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the
machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to
apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a
question."
-- Charles Babbage
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:05:47 +0200
According to Nimster, at 20:50 on 25 Aug 00, the word on the street was...

> I think they have no OS. It's all run from the net. One OS for everybody -
> the Matrix. your computer is like a host on the matrix. It can be sculpted,
> or be left bare...

That makes no sense. You need an OS in order to be able to do anything
useful on a computer, unless you want to put the same kinds of routines
into every program you're going to run on it. Even if you don't
specifically install the OS on the hard drive (like on 1980s "home
computers" -- ZX Spectrum, C64, and so on) there's still an OS there.

Saying that cyberdecks "run from the net" is, IMHO, like saying that if I
hook a computer with totally blank drives up to the Internet, I will be
able to use it.

> I still think Otaku's are ridiculous tho. Storing .jpgs in your memory for
> example... How do you view them if you simply try to remember? as 101010100
> or do you see the picture?

You store them in computer memory, either cyber or connected through
another datajack. Then you view them on a computer.

> It's all so silly.

It's also a game, written by people who didn't seem to know much about
computers. The curent generation appears to know a bit more, but is
handicapped by the older material.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: k guito@*****.dhs.org
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 04:26:05 -0400 (EDT)
On Sat, 26 Aug 2000, Gurth wrote:

> That makes no sense. You need an OS in order to be able to do anything
> useful on a computer, unless you want to put the same kinds of routines
> into every program you're going to run on it. Even if you don't
> specifically install the OS on the hard drive (like on 1980s "home
> computers" -- ZX Spectrum, C64, and so on) there's still an OS there.
>
> Saying that cyberdecks "run from the net" is, IMHO, like saying that if I
> hook a computer with totally blank drives up to the Internet, I will be
> able to use it.

i've seen plenty of computers that 'run from the net', turn it on and
the network/ethernet card handle the rest.

--
Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference is,
I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it.
-Stephen Leacock (1869-1944)
Message no. 13
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:45:10 +0200
According to k, at 4:26 on 26 Aug 00, the word on the street was...

> i've seen plenty of computers that 'run from the net', turn it on and
> the network/ethernet card handle the rest.

A completely blank computer?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: k guito@*****.dhs.org
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 04:55:45 -0400 (EDT)
On Sat, 26 Aug 2000, Gurth wrote:

> According to k, at 4:26 on 26 Aug 00, the word on the street was...
>
> > i've seen plenty of computers that 'run from the net', turn it on and
> > the network/ethernet card handle the rest.
>
> A completely blank computer?

well it's got the bios, i suppose. the os is provided from the network,
though .. which i thought was what the guy's original message said the
matrix was like.

--
Science is the record of dead religions.
-Oscar Wilde (Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills) (1854-1900)
Message no. 15
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:39:56 +0200
(>) Gurth Left this message on the BBS at 10:05 AM 8/26/2000


>That makes no sense. You need an OS in order to be able to do anything
>useful on a computer, unless you want to put the same kinds of routines
>into every program you're going to run on it. Even if you don't
>specifically install the OS on the hard drive (like on 1980s "home
>computers" -- ZX Spectrum, C64, and so on) there's still an OS there.

I didn't say there is no OS, I said that there's one OS for every deck, and
that's the matrix itself.

>Saying that cyberdecks "run from the net" is, IMHO, like saying that if I
>hook a computer with totally blank drives up to the Internet, I will be
>able to use it.

And why not? You won't have room for sculpting the system, so the icons of
the no files you have will all be empty, but you'd still be able to
communicate with other hosts, and you would be "hackable" but have no space.

The whole idea is that the matrix is not a tool, like the Internet is
today, but It's an alternate reality of sorts. It's like asking, What OS is
the Internet? It's not an OS. You might say it's programmed in different
languages, or containing all sorts of files, but it's not distinctively an
OS. Now, you might say "But It's run by servers running SUN/UNIX/Whatever"
it is. But the point is, that's the part where our reality comes in. That's
where the Internet is like a tool, run on an otherwise capable system. The
way I perceive it, in SR, even an 'offline' computer is a host, simply not
inside any LTG and unable to trade data between one another.

Im not saying this from any source knowledge, Im just having fun speculating.
(>) Nimster
There is no spoon.
Message no. 16
From: Adam J adamj@*********.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 03:55:22 -0600
At 12:39 26/08/2000 +0200, Nimster wrote:

>The whole idea is that the matrix is not a tool, like the Internet is
>today, but It's an alternate reality of sorts.

Being an "alternate reality" doesn't prevent it from being a tool, or at
least it doesn't prevent it being manipulated by people and tools
(programs, frames, etc). I think the Matrix is very much like the Internet
of today. It's just more integrated with your everyday activities and is
used for a much wider range of things than the internet currently is.

> It's like asking, What OS is
>the Internet? It's not an OS. You might say it's programmed in different
>languages, or containing all sorts of files, but it's not distinctively an
>OS. Now, you might say "But It's run by servers running SUN/UNIX/Whatever"
>it is. But the point is, that's the part where our reality comes in. That's
>where the Internet is like a tool, run on an otherwise capable system. The
>way I perceive it, in SR, even an 'offline' computer is a host, simply not
>inside any LTG and unable to trade data between one another.

Err.. I don't see how this doesn't hold up today, too. Take my computer
offline and it's still able to do all the same things it does online,
except those which involving sending or receiving data to a host.
Furthermore, I don't see what any of this has to do with operating systems.

>Im not saying this from any source knowledge, Im just having fun speculating.

Page 58, Matrix: "The Master Persona Control Program is the base operating
system for the cyberterminal."

Adam
--
< adamj@*********.com | ICQ# 2350330 | TSS Productions >
< The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com >
< ShadowFAQ: http://shadowfaq.dumpshock.com >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader: http://lists.dumpshock.com >
Message no. 17
From: NeoJ-is-K neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 05:39:39 -0500
From: "k" <guito@*****.dhs.org>
Subject: Re: Integrating Deckers


> > > i've seen plenty of computers that 'run from the net', turn it on and
> > > the network/ethernet card handle the rest.
> > A completely blank computer?
> well it's got the bios, i suppose. the os is provided from the network,
> though .. which i thought was what the guy's original message said the
> matrix was like.

Actually, here is something that some people might not be aware of. There
are preloaded BIOS operations involved in some motherboards now that once a
computer comes on line, a mother-host registers the now active port and
immediate begins the formatting and configuration of that port and all its
internal peripherals and related OS-like information.

We do it here in the support center. I'm sure it *can* be done. The truth
is, so much of given hardware has a recognition profile, that once
determined, can be accessed and dealt with according to the outside source.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
J. Keith Henry (NeoJudas)
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Winstar Tech Support (www.winstar.com)
Message no. 18
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:31:46 +0200
(>) Adam J Left this message on the BBS at 03:55 AM 8/26/2000

>Being an "alternate reality" doesn't prevent it from being a tool, or at
>least it doesn't prevent it being manipulated by people and tools
>(programs, frames, etc). I think the Matrix is very much like the Internet
>of today. It's just more integrated with your everyday activities and is
>used for a much wider range of things than the internet currently is.

Of course it's manipulated and of course it is used as a tool, but - I
didn't explain my meaning. The internet today, on most systems is just
another "program" ran on the computer, Thus it's seperatable, and has
different browsers, email programs, ftp browsers, etc etc.
What I portray is the matrix being ran in the deck, wether it's on- or
off-line. The matrix is one, singular, indifferent from one deck to
another. all users view it the same. That's my point.

>Furthermore, I don't see what any of this has to do with operating systems.

As I said, I probably didn't explain my meaning too well. Today you have an
OS that runs the matrix (internet). Then, you have an OS that is the
Matrix. The matrix is not 'run' within some other OS. When you connect to
the deck you do not get "Windows 2060 loading..." and then double-click
"Enter the matrix." You simply appear in the LTG you logged into. It's
almost like when you use a phone. It doesn't load an OS. It's simply
connected into the collective OS - the LTG.

>Page 58, Matrix: "The Master Persona Control Program is the base operating
>system for the cyberterminal."

This doesn't come in contrary to what I said - that there is one OS. It
does not improve it either, but it doesn't negate it.


(>) Nimster
There is no spoon.
Message no. 19
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:02:14 +0200
According to Nimster, at 12:39 on 26 Aug 00, the word on the street was...

> I didn't say there is no OS, I said that there's one OS for every deck, and
> that's the matrix itself.

So you're saying there are two OS'es: a basic one built into the deck, and
a fully-capable one on the Matrix that the deck only gets access to when
it logs on?

> >Saying that cyberdecks "run from the net" is, IMHO, like saying that if
I
> >hook a computer with totally blank drives up to the Internet, I will be
> >able to use it.
>
> And why not?

Because it won't do anything except give a warning that it didn't find a
bootable drive?

> You won't have room for sculpting the system, so the icons of the no
> files you have will all be empty, but you'd still be able to
> communicate with other hosts, and you would be "hackable" but have no
> space.

Note that I was talking about RL computers, not SR ones.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:02:14 +0200
According to NeoJ-is-K, at 5:39 on 26 Aug 00, the word on the street
was...

> Actually, here is something that some people might not be aware of. There
> are preloaded BIOS operations involved in some motherboards now that once a
> computer comes on line, a mother-host registers the now active port and
> immediate begins the formatting and configuration of that port and all its
> internal peripherals and related OS-like information.

I didn't know this was already implemented, but it's by no means
impossible to imagine. However, from your description, what it does is
(basically) the same as when you put a boot disk into a new, blank
computer and use it to install an operating system. Once it's been
connected to the mother-host once for the installation sequence, it
doesn't need that connection anymore in order to run.

OTOH, how I interpreted Nimster's remark was that this sort of thing would
happen every time you hook a cyberdeck to the Matrix -- all it will do is
contact a host, download an OS, and be useable. Then, when you switch the
power off, everything is gone again and it has to re-download the OS next
time it's switched on else the deck is unusable. Which is not very handy,
if you ask me -- for one thing it prevents working offline until after
you've been online.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:26:07 -0700
"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> OTOH, how I interpreted Nimster's remark was that this sort of thing would
> happen every time you hook a cyberdeck to the Matrix -- all it will do is
> contact a host, download an OS, and be useable. Then, when you switch the
> power off, everything is gone again and it has to re-download the OS next
> time it's switched on else the deck is unusable. Which is not very handy,
> if you ask me -- for one thing it prevents working offline until after
> you've been online.
>

Or how about, you connect and it downloads the OS, but then it sets a flag
and only downloads "updates" to the OS every other time you connect?


-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++

"The splendor of the Universe pales in comparison to that of a fine woman."
-Me '2K
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GU d- s+:+>: a22 C++++ UL-- P L+(--) E? W+++ N++ o? K- w+ O---- M-(--) V?
!PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv b+++>$ DI++++ D++ G+ e* h--- r+++ z+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



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Message no. 22
From: k guito@*****.dhs.org
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 15:15:52 -0400 (EDT)
On Sat, 26 Aug 2000, Gurth wrote:

> OTOH, how I interpreted Nimster's remark was that this sort of thing would
> happen every time you hook a cyberdeck to the Matrix -- all it will do is
> contact a host, download an OS, and be useable. Then, when you switch the
> power off, everything is gone again and it has to re-download the OS next
> time it's switched on else the deck is unusable. Which is not very handy,
> if you ask me -- for one thing it prevents working offline until after
> you've been online.

thats the way my diskless (both harddrive and removeable media)
workstations work. :) it's not very hand for some things, true.

--
... they are ill discoverers that think there is no land when they
can see nothing but sea.
-Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
Message no. 23
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 05:08:46 +0200
(>) Gurth Left this message on the BBS at 08:02 PM 8/26/2000


>OTOH, how I interpreted Nimster's remark was that this sort of thing would
>happen every time you hook a cyberdeck to the Matrix -- all it will do is
>contact a host, download an OS, and be useable. Then, when you switch the
>power off, everything is gone again and it has to re-download the OS next
>time it's switched on else the deck is unusable. Which is not very handy,
>if you ask me -- for one thing it prevents working offline until after
>you've been online.

Okay, you generally understood me, however I did say that you can work
offline. It's more like a phone. The basic 'OS' is simply a simsense chip
in the deck. When you operate the system *offline* you connect to a basic
simsense world that is the matrix. IIRC the normal icons right, you get
something like your persona in a fully black, unlimited space. It's not
connected and cannot pass info, etc.
When you connect online, it only downloads the symbols and sculpted systems
and info. Kinda like your browser doesn't download the whole browser engine
when you go online, only the content of the web page you currently see. But
there is simply only one browser. One OS. That OS is the info sent, because
there is no way to interpret the Matrix differently. It's a reality.
There's no "capable of smells" "Incapable of smells" browsers. They
all
receive all signals and all interpret them in the same way. It's all the
same - like a phone in a sense, only capable offline.

(>) Nimster
There is no spoon.
Message no. 24
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 05:14:23 +0200
(>) Zebulin Magby Left this message on the BBS at 11:26 AM 8/26/2000

>Or how about, you connect and it downloads the OS, but then it sets a flag
>and only downloads "updates" to the OS every other time you connect?

No, then the first time you'd connect will have long "Boot up" time, and
every time you connect for updates. We don't want that. It should be
integrated the same way you just pick up a phone, and the lines there. It
doesn't matter if the phone company just upgraded from copper lines to OC.
It's still there and still the same. The basic OS is on the chip of the
phone, and every update is simply changed on the host side rather then the
connecters. For example, if there's an update that now warns you every time
you enter a sculpted system, instead of downloading an update to your
system, that will be used every time you enter a sculpted system, it will
go the other way around.. Nothing will be downloaded, but simply all
sculpted systems will add "Warning, you are entering a sculpted system"
screen to their hosts. They cannot decline. The LTG does it, in the virtual
length right before entering a host.
(>) Nimster
There is no spoon.
Message no. 25
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:39:07 -0700
From: "Nimster" <nimster@*********.net.il>
> Of course it's manipulated and of course it is used as a tool, but - I
> didn't explain my meaning. The internet today, on most systems is just
> another "program" ran on the computer, Thus it's seperatable, and has
> different browsers, email programs, ftp browsers, etc etc.
> What I portray is the matrix being ran in the deck, wether it's on- or
> off-line. The matrix is one, singular, indifferent from one deck to
> another. all users view it the same. That's my point.

The internet is a large collection of services and protocols you interact
with, nothing more.

The Matrix is not the same to every user, aside from what you can "see" is
related to your Sensor program for the most part, and thats even without the
abstraction between the modified Sensor programs used by the average user.

The Matrix, just like the internet, is a collection of services and
protocols. Sure, lots of different kinds of data travel over the Matrix,
simsense, audio, text, whatever, but you still need a suite of programs to
use that data - and a icon/persona sitting in the same dataspace to "snag"
the data and send it to the user in machine code that is then translated
into either simsense or trideo or holo, or whatever they have on the client
end.

> >Furthermore, I don't see what any of this has to do with operating
systems.
>
> As I said, I probably didn't explain my meaning too well. Today you have
an
> OS that runs the matrix (internet). Then, you have an OS that is the
> Matrix. The matrix is not 'run' within some other OS. When you connect to
> the deck you do not get "Windows 2060 loading..." and then double-click
> "Enter the matrix." You simply appear in the LTG you logged into. It's
> almost like when you use a phone. It doesn't load an OS. It's simply
> connected into the collective OS - the LTG.

There is no OS that runs the "internet" because the internet is not a single
entity. I think you're vastly confusing an application with an actual
operating system.

> >Page 58, Matrix: "The Master Persona Control Program is the base
operating
> >system for the cyberterminal."
>
> This doesn't come in contrary to what I said - that there is one OS. It
> does not improve it either, but it doesn't negate it.

Your persona programs are the applications that allow you to interact with
the Matrix, that's clear in Matrix (I hope!), without at least Sensor and
Bod 1 you can't do anything on the Matrix (note that before editing that
meant ALL devices hooked to the Matrix had to have S1, B1). They're just
utilities however, and you can have a computer without persona programs
(i.e. the computers in SR3 you buy by the Mp) and they can still run
applications, so it stands to reason they have some sort of operating system
that does not require Matrix access to use.

Kenneth
"On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the
machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to
apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a
question."
-- Charles Babbage
Message no. 26
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:35:26 -0700
From: "Zebulin Magby" <zebulingod@*****.com>
> Or how about, you connect and it downloads the OS, but then it sets a flag
> and only downloads "updates" to the OS every other time you connect?

That's not too far different from what they have now really. But I REALLY
doubt that deckers and power users would go for software that mysteriously
updated itself without the users approval or knowledge.

Kenneth
"On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the
machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to
apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a
question."
-- Charles Babbage
Message no. 27
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 23:26:45 -0500
on 8/26/00 3:55 AM, k at guito@*****.dhs.org e-scribed:

>> According to k, at 4:26 on 26 Aug 00, the word on the street was...
>>
>>> i've seen plenty of computers that 'run from the net', turn it on and
>>> the network/ethernet card handle the rest.
>>
>> A completely blank computer?
>
> well it's got the bios, i suppose. the os is provided from the network,
> though .. which i thought was what the guy's original message said the
> matrix was like.

Picture this: A school full of computers (iMacs--this is a RL example), all
connected by ethernet. In one room is one that probably looks a bit
different (G3 or G4 Tower, probably connected to a RAID or with a big HD for
upcoming reasons). Press the power button on the end one, and it boots. Then
choose a command, and every computer on the network powers up and boots off
the system on the tower. All apps are on the tower. The HDs are AFAIK
unnecessary in the iMacs. When the admin wants to upgrade the system, an
app, or install something new, he installs it on the tower, and it's
accessable to anyone with the correct password. For that matter, everyone's
preferences for each app & access privs are all stored there as well. When
the iMac boots, it stops & waits for a user. The user speaks his password
into a mic on any of the iMacs, regardless whether he's ever use this
particular one before, and it adjusts the desktop texture/picture to his
settings and, according to his access privs, all is as he wants it/left it
last time on the other side of the building.

This exists today with Mac OS X server & OS 9 on the client Macs. Now
translate to SR:

The guy responsible for the design of the Matrix (probably similar to
Network Associates or the like) has a Matrix OS. Connect to a terminal, and
your deck boots with Matrix OS. Of course, it wouldn't be one central one:
more like a series of nodes, and instead of the persona being stored
centrally, you carry it with you in your deck, plus you have a HD of sorts
(actually, all RAM, apparently, or something like Flash ROM), that holds all
your contraband apps like Sleaze, etc.

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 28
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 00:41:50 EDT
In a message dated 8/27/00 12:28:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
webmaster@*********.com writes:

> The guy responsible for the design of the Matrix (probably similar to
> Network Associates or the like) has a Matrix OS. Connect to a terminal, and
> your deck boots with Matrix OS. Of course, it wouldn't be one central one:
> more like a series of nodes, and instead of the persona being stored
> centrally, you carry it with you in your deck, plus you have a HD of sorts
> (actually, all RAM, apparently, or something like Flash ROM), that holds
all
> your contraband apps like Sleaze, etc.
>

Keep in mind though....the Matrix, as I understand it, uses the basic
backbone of the Internet. There's no central ANYTHING. Now, to settle a myth:
Is it true that the Internet is built to withstand nuclear attack?
Message no. 29
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 23:13:31 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>

> Now, to
settle a myth:
> Is it true that the Internet is built to withstand nuclear attack?

"The Internet" isn't some computer off in the middle of nowhere... the
internet is merely the connection of computers... when you 'log on' you are
effectivly adding your computer to the network out there that is
collectively "the internet"... same goes for when I log off... I am removing
my computer from the internet.

So... as long as 2 or more computers can continual to communicate and
exchange data, the internet will exist.

Augustus`
Message no. 30
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:48:38 +0200
According to k, at 15:15 on 26 Aug 00, the word on the street was...

> thats the way my diskless (both harddrive and removeable media)
> workstations work. :) it's not very hand for some things, true.

It would work for machines that are only ever to be used when part of a
network; as cyberdecks can also be used offline, though, it wouldn't be
such a good idea for them, if you ask me.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 31
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 08:11:40 -0400
Augustus wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
>
> > Now, to
> settle a myth:
> > Is it true that the Internet is built to withstand nuclear attack?
>
> "The Internet" isn't some computer off in the middle of nowhere... the
> internet is merely the connection of computers...

Yes. And no. There are computers that act as servers for users who
log on. What do you think your ISP does? When you log on, you are
connecting to your ISPs local network which is connected to other ISP
networks through the phone companies.

when you 'log on' you are
> effectivly adding your computer to the network out there that is
> collectively "the internet"... same goes for when I log off... I am
removing
> my computer from the internet.

It's not a peer-to-peer connection.

>
> So... as long as 2 or more computers can continual to communicate and
> exchange data, the internet will exist.

Only in the most liberal definition. Internet (IIRC) is abbreviated
from Interconnected Networks. It was born out of DarpaNet, which was
developed to be a "nuclear attack proof" system of connecting the
universities and research companies that were doing work for the
Defense Department. The basic premise was that there are more than
one lines of communication, and information would be shared amongst
many nodes. Thus if any one (or only a few) of the research centers
were destroyed in an attack, the others would survive and continue to
be able to communicate.

--
Iridios
--
God Is

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
7:59:41 AM/69:01:03 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 32
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:25:13 +1100
> Picture this: A school full of computers (iMacs--this is a RL example),
all
> connected by ethernet. In one room is one that probably looks a bit
> different (G3 or G4 Tower, probably connected to a RAID or with a big HD
for
> upcoming reasons). Press the power button on the end one, and it boots.
Then
> choose a command, and every computer on the network powers up and boots
off
> the system on the tower. All apps are on the tower. The HDs are AFAIK
> unnecessary in the iMacs. When the admin wants to upgrade the system, an
> app, or install something new, he installs it on the tower, and it's
> accessable to anyone with the correct password. For that matter,
everyone's
> preferences for each app & access privs are all stored there as well. When
> the iMac boots, it stops & waits for a user. The user speaks his password
> into a mic on any of the iMacs, regardless whether he's ever use this
> particular one before, and it adjusts the desktop texture/picture to his
> settings and, according to his access privs, all is as he wants it/left it
> last time on the other side of the building.
>
Similar to where I used to work. 800 odd PC's, 2 file servers etc, but I
could sit at any one of them and boot it up, log in, or whatever and got
only the programs I was allowed to have, etc. All Windows NT4 from memory.
Phone system was the same. I loged the phone in and only got calls for my
section. (Of course we didn't let it all stay this way for long

Annachie
Message no. 33
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 08:20:49 -0500
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
Aent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 11:41 PM

> Now, to settle a myth:
> Is it true that the Internet is built to withstand nuclear attack?

Nuclear attack? What are you smoking, man? Because I want ten pounds of it
shipped to my place at once!

The internet can't survive a ditch-digger in Dallas without notable
degradation across much of the North American continent...a nuclear attack
would kill it dead, dead, dead.

Patrick
Message no. 34
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Integrating Deckers
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 23:19:57 -0500
on 8/27/00 8:20 AM, Patrick Goodman at pgoodman13@************.com
e-scribed:

> The internet can't survive a ditch-digger in Dallas without notable
> degradation across much of the North American continent...a nuclear attack
> would kill it dead, dead, dead.

Only certain parts. If you only surf UK sites, a nuclear attack in the U.S.
wouldn't be noticed.

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level

Further Reading

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