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Message no. 1
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:25:18 +1100
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles S Remis <cremis@******.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: Intentionally non-descriptive :)


>Gurth wrote:
>
>> Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
>> any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm
going
>> to talk about...
>>
>> G
>> O
>>
>> T
>> O
>>
>> T
>> H
>> E
>>
>> N
>> E
>> X
>> T
>>
>> P
>> O
>> S
>> T
>> ,
>>
>> O
>> K
>> A
>> Y
>> ?
>>
>> My first idea was for using WW's WoD...
>
>This sounds like it would be the most interesting from a
>roleplaying aspect, but I can see some serious problems
>with commingling the histories...you would need to decide
>whether vampires were around before the awakening...and
>if so, why they are weakening now that the awakening has
>arrived.
>
>> KULT
>
>I'm not familiar enough with it to offer an opinion.
>
>> WORLD OF DARKNESS Mage
>
>This could be lots of fun also, and would be a lot easier
>to integrate. The awakening would play merry h**l with
>the technocracy...
>
>> EARTHDAWN
>
>Personally, I never found ED that appealing, but if you
>like it, and you think your group would enjoy it, give it
>a shot. If you really like the horror from the past though,
>you should consider Beyond the Supernatural, Chill, Call of
>Cthulu (it's all basically the same mythos...call a goat
>of a thousand young by any other name...)
>
>A further comment on the whole WOD of issue. WW has been
>heading in a very apocalyptic direction of late, so you
>would need to decide if you wanted to incorporate that.
>Who knows, even if the PCs muck it up (and don't save
>the world), you could always crossover with Aftermath...
>
>Along that line, you could have the PCs captured and
>frozen by a corp experimenting with cryo storage and
>have them wake up in any science fiction or post
>holocaust setting. Of course this wouldn't really be
>a crossover, just SR characters in another setting.
>It sure would keep the group together though :)
>
>You could save the latter for a graceful exit...run
>SR until the PCs get scragged, then have them wake
>up instead of fading to black.
>
>Regards,
>
>CSR
>
I always wanted to run a game of SR 100 years or maybe a couple of hundred
in the future. The elves are taking over the world, the dragons are fighting
them where they can be bothered, the Horrors are on the doorstep, and most
importantly, everyone laughs at the runners and their antique and
practically useless cyberware. Magic would be much more potent and you would
have to make spell matrices like in Earthdawn, or you will get the cops, the
dragon armies and of course the Horrors at your throat.
Message no. 2
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:27:42 +0100
Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
to talk about...


G
O

T
O

T
H
E

N
E
X
T

P
O
S
T
,

O
K
A
Y
?

Right. The reason for the secrecy is that I want to ask your opinion about
crossing SR with other games to create a campaign that is only SR at first
sight, but as there is at least one of my players on this list, I can't do
it in plain sight of everyone. Please respect the spoiler space :)

Giving a bit of background first might help get my question across
better... In last Saturday's SR session which I GMed, the PCs went to a
club, and just for a bit of fun I made it exactly like the club owned by
one of the PCs in a Vampire game I play in, and in which one of the other
SR players is the GM (but as he couldn't make it to the SR session, he
obviously doesn't know). The shaman in the group noticed something odd
about the auras of the club's owner and one of her friends (who were,
again, direct copies of the Vampire PCs), but I didn't do anything more
with this.

On the way home from the session, I started thinking about making this
campaign, which is just starting, a crossover between SR and another game -
- without telling the players beforehand, of course. The idea is that
they'll think it's going to be fairly standard SR where Johnsons hire them
to do jobs, etc., but it'll turn into something else entirely with a bit
of luck.

My first idea was for using WW's WoD, because I'd already dropped a few
hints that way. However, as none of the players present last Saturday have
played any WoD, they likely didn't realise what I was telling them --
which was good.

When I thought about it a bit more, I decided I could also try some other
games instead. What I'm asking the list (yes, as the regulars may know, I
often take long to get to the point of my questions :) is which you all
think may work best. The main options available to me:


KULT
This is the option I like best at the moment. The SR campaign as we're
running it now isn't a very bright future, but this would make it so much
darker still.

Some snags I can think of are that Kult's background would have to be
altered to incorporate SR's elements (shifting the timeline isn't too
hard, adding SR's magic might be), and that the rules are so very
different, requiring extensive conversion work once the PCs break down the
illusion of reality.


WORLD OF DARKNESS
This would mainly be Vampire and/or Mage, as I don't own any of the other
games. Advantage here are that I think it's fairly easy to extrapolate a
timeline to explain SR's history in WoD terms, and the rules systems are
similar enough to convert WoD stuff to SR without too much fuss (I'd
probably either use Ken's conversions or do a set of my own when it
becomes necessary).

Something that's a combination advantage and disadvantage is that one
player knows plenty of the WoD already, so he might catch on before the
others do and have to be sworn to silence (that's the con side), but that
same thing might be helpful as well.


EARTHDAWN
Yes, this would be a "Stop the Horrors" campaign. The advantage here is
that it's a fairly well-established item in SR history, so it's not too
hard for the players to get to grips with.

However, this is my least favorite option ATM, only included here because
someone is bound to mention it in this thread :)


OVER THE EDGE
Hey, why not go weird instead of dark? :) Although I'm not _entirely_
serious about this option, I'm not entirely casting it aside, either. OTE
has so much strangeness in it that could be put into SR that this might be
a very rewarding game. All it needs is a shift from 1990s Al Amarja to
2060s Seattle.

A problem is that one of the players doesn't seem to like OTE very much,
but knowing him, maybe that's because he's expecting not to like it --
IOW, he might love it if he plays it without knowing it :) Another problem
is the OTE campaign I also GM, so some players (who are in both groups)
might catch on too rapidly.


Opinions, please?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: kawaii kawaii@********.org
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 15:39:02 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Gurth wrote:

> Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
> any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
> to talk about...
>
>
> G
> O
>
> T
> O
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> N
> E
> X
> T
>
> P
> O
> S
> T
> ,
>
> O
> K
> A
> Y
> ?
>

Here are a few more suggestions to be tossed out there:

Paranoia - Nothing like hunting down corporate traitors ;)

Torg - Another great system that wouldn't be that hard to incorporate. For
example, Nippon Tech? =)

Ninjas and Superspies - High Espionage Game?

WoD - With world of darkness, might want to try one of the variant systems
that your players might not know about, such as Kindred of the East
(which, despite the name, shows that Eastern Vampires are *completely*
different from Western ones), or any of the Eastern variants of the
standard WoD. Hengeyokai and Land of Eight Million Dreams are two others
that come to mind immediately.

Call of Cthulu - *grin* You knew someone would bring this one up:
Shadowrunners out for a "normal" run, and some strange things start to
happen...

Warhammer / AD&D - The classic fantasy characters that are tossed into a
dark and gritty SR world via some combination of a Portable Hole and a Bag
of Holding. The Runners come across these incredible retro-people and the
fun starts. =)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 4
From: Tony Rabiola argent1@****.com
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 14:46:54 -0600
> Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler
space to keep
> any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about
what I'm going
> to talk about...
>
>
> G
> O
>
> T
> O
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> N
> E
> X
> T
>
> P
> O
> S
> T
> ,
>
> O
> K
> A
> Y
> ?
>
> Right. The reason for the secrecy is that I want to ask your
opinion about
> crossing SR with other games to create a campaign that is only
SR at first
> sight, but as there is at least one of my players on this list,
I can't do
> it in plain sight of everyone. Please respect the spoiler space
:)
>
> Giving a bit of background first might help get my question
across
> better... In last Saturday's SR session which I GMed, the PCs
went to a
> club, and just for a bit of fun I made it exactly like the club
owned by
> one of the PCs in a Vampire game I play in, and in which one of
the other
> SR players is the GM (but as he couldn't make it to the SR
session, he
> obviously doesn't know). The shaman in the group noticed
something odd
> about the auras of the club's owner and one of her friends (who
were,
> again, direct copies of the Vampire PCs), but I didn't do
anything more
> with this.
>

Depends on what direction you want to take this, it seems to me.
If you want to go with the vampire, use the WOD setting material,
plenty of it there.

If you want to make it more wide open, some other suggestions
might be Nephilium, Conspiracy X, or even Chill or Call of
Cthulu.

Have fun! Let us know how it turns out.

Argent
Message no. 5
From: Wildfire@*************.com Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 20:58:06 GMT
On Mon, 6 Mar 2000 21:27:42 +0100 shadowrn@*********.com wrote:
> Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
> any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
> to talk about...
>
>
> G
> O
>
> T
> O
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> N
> E
> X
> T
>
> P
> O
> S
> T
> ,
>
> O
> K
> A
> Y
> ?
>
> Right. The reason for the secrecy is that I want to ask your opinion about
> crossing SR with other games to create a campaign that is only SR at first
> sight, but as there is at least one of my players on this list, I can't do
> it in plain sight of everyone. Please respect the spoiler space :)
>
> Giving a bit of background first might help get my question across
> better... In last Saturday's SR session which I GMed, the PCs went to a
> club, and just for a bit of fun I made it exactly like the club owned by
> one of the PCs in a Vampire game I play in, and in which one of the other
> SR players is the GM (but as he couldn't make it to the SR session, he
> obviously doesn't know). The shaman in the group noticed something odd
> about the auras of the club's owner and one of her friends (who were,
> again, direct copies of the Vampire PCs), but I didn't do anything more
> with this.
>
> On the way home from the session, I started thinking about making this
> campaign, which is just starting, a crossover between SR and another game -
> - without telling the players beforehand, of course. The idea is that
> they'll think it's going to be fairly standard SR where Johnsons hire them
> to do jobs, etc., but it'll turn into something else entirely with a bit
> of luck.
>
> My first idea was for using WW's WoD, because I'd already dropped a few
> hints that way. However, as none of the players present last Saturday have
> played any WoD, they likely didn't realise what I was telling them --
> which was good.
>
> When I thought about it a bit more, I decided I could also try some other
> games instead. What I'm asking the list (yes, as the regulars may know, I
> often take long to get to the point of my questions :) is which you all
> think may work best. The main options available to me:
>
>
> KULT
> This is the option I like best at the moment. The SR campaign as we're
> running it now isn't a very bright future, but this would make it so much
> darker still.
>
> Some snags I can think of are that Kult's background would have to be
> altered to incorporate SR's elements (shifting the timeline isn't too
> hard, adding SR's magic might be), and that the rules are so very
> different, requiring extensive conversion work once the PCs break down the
> illusion of reality.
>
>
> WORLD OF DARKNESS
> This would mainly be Vampire and/or Mage, as I don't own any of the other
> games. Advantage here are that I think it's fairly easy to extrapolate a
> timeline to explain SR's history in WoD terms, and the rules systems are
> similar enough to convert WoD stuff to SR without too much fuss (I'd
> probably either use Ken's conversions or do a set of my own when it
> becomes necessary).
>
> Something that's a combination advantage and disadvantage is that one
> player knows plenty of the WoD already, so he might catch on before the
> others do and have to be sworn to silence (that's the con side), but that
> same thing might be helpful as well.
>
>
> EARTHDAWN
> Yes, this would be a "Stop the Horrors" campaign. The advantage here is
> that it's a fairly well-established item in SR history, so it's not too
> hard for the players to get to grips with.
>
> However, this is my least favorite option ATM, only included here because
> someone is bound to mention it in this thread :)
>
>
> OVER THE EDGE
> Hey, why not go weird instead of dark? :) Although I'm not _entirely_
> serious about this option, I'm not entirely casting it aside, either. OTE
> has so much strangeness in it that could be put into SR that this might be
> a very rewarding game. All it needs is a shift from 1990s Al Amarja to
> 2060s Seattle.
>
> A problem is that one of the players doesn't seem to like OTE very much,
> but knowing him, maybe that's because he's expecting not to like it --
> IOW, he might love it if he plays it without knowing it :) Another problem
> is the OTE campaign I also GM, so some players (who are in both groups)
> might catch on too rapidly.
>
>
> Opinions, please?
>
>
I'd say great idea! It sounds like it would be fun for all involved, and put a new twist
on things. Can't say that I've played any of the games you've mentioned, but from your
descriptions, it seems that your best bet would be a WW game or Kult. I think they'd
figure out the OTE easily, and they might automatically jump to the Earthdawn conclusion
the minute the sense something strange, considering the link is always talked about.

Wildfire (sometimes with a DC)
Who personally wants to do a SR/In Nomine crossover just because, and a SR/Star Wars
crossover to answer the question "How many riggers does it take to control a Death
Star?"
Message no. 6
From: Bai Shen baishen@**********.com
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 16:02:43 -0500
Gurth wrote:
>
> Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
> any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
> to talk about...
>
> G
> O
>
> T
> O
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> N
> E
> X
> T
>
> P
> O
> S
> T
> ,
>
> O
> K
> A
> Y
> ?
>
> WORLD OF DARKNESS
> This would mainly be Vampire and/or Mage, as I don't own any of the other
> games. Advantage here are that I think it's fairly easy to extrapolate a
> timeline to explain SR's history in WoD terms, and the rules systems are
> similar enough to convert WoD stuff to SR without too much fuss (I'd
> probably either use Ken's conversions or do a set of my own when it
> becomes necessary).
>
> Something that's a combination advantage and disadvantage is that one
> player knows plenty of the WoD already, so he might catch on before the
> others do and have to be sworn to silence (that's the con side), but that
> same thing might be helpful as well.

Dunno 'bout the others, but the GM of the current SR game I'm in has
combined WW an' SR together. From what he'd mentioned to me a while
back, I think he's also got parts of other systems in it as well. I'll
let ya know more as the game progresses(I've only played one session).

Bai Shen
Message no. 7
From: Charles S Remis cremis@******.net
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 21:49:21 -0600
Gurth wrote:

> Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
> any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
> to talk about...
>
> G
> O
>
> T
> O
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> N
> E
> X
> T
>
> P
> O
> S
> T
> ,
>
> O
> K
> A
> Y
> ?
>
> My first idea was for using WW's WoD...

This sounds like it would be the most interesting from a
roleplaying aspect, but I can see some serious problems
with commingling the histories...you would need to decide
whether vampires were around before the awakening...and
if so, why they are weakening now that the awakening has
arrived.

> KULT

I'm not familiar enough with it to offer an opinion.

> WORLD OF DARKNESS Mage

This could be lots of fun also, and would be a lot easier
to integrate. The awakening would play merry h**l with
the technocracy...

> EARTHDAWN

Personally, I never found ED that appealing, but if you
like it, and you think your group would enjoy it, give it
a shot. If you really like the horror from the past though,
you should consider Beyond the Supernatural, Chill, Call of
Cthulu (it's all basically the same mythos...call a goat
of a thousand young by any other name...)

A further comment on the whole WOD of issue. WW has been
heading in a very apocalyptic direction of late, so you
would need to decide if you wanted to incorporate that.
Who knows, even if the PCs muck it up (and don't save
the world), you could always crossover with Aftermath...

Along that line, you could have the PCs captured and
frozen by a corp experimenting with cryo storage and
have them wake up in any science fiction or post
holocaust setting. Of course this wouldn't really be
a crossover, just SR characters in another setting.
It sure would keep the group together though :)

You could save the latter for a graceful exit...run
SR until the PCs get scragged, then have them wake
up instead of fading to black.

Regards,

CSR
Message no. 8
From: Charles S Remis cremis@******.net
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2000 21:57:07 -0600
> Gurth wrote:
>
> > Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
> > any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
> > to talk about...
> >
> > G
> > O
> >
> > T
> > O
> >
> > T
> > H
> > E
> >
> > N
> > E
> > X
> > T
> >
> > P
> > O
> > S
> > T
> > ,
> >
> > O
> > K
> > A
> > Y
> > ?
> >

Oh, and of course you could just steal Car Wars lock, stock,
and barrel and use it as an Xover or add it to any of the
other Xovers...

Regards,

CSR
Message no. 9
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:36:01 EST
In a message dated 3/6/2000 12:30:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

> Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
> any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
> to talk about...
>
>
> G
> O
>
> T
> O
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> N
> E
> X
> T
>
> P
> O
> S
> T
> ,
>
> O
> K
> A
> Y
> ?
>
> Right. The reason for the secrecy is that I want to ask your opinion about
> crossing SR with other games to create a campaign that is only SR at first
> sight, but as there is at least one of my players on this list, I can't do
> it in plain sight of everyone. Please respect the spoiler space :)
>
> Giving a bit of background first might help get my question across
> better... In last Saturday's SR session which I GMed, the PCs went to a
> club, and just for a bit of fun I made it exactly like the club owned by
> one of the PCs in a Vampire game I play in, and in which one of the other
> SR players is the GM (but as he couldn't make it to the SR session, he
> obviously doesn't know). The shaman in the group noticed something odd
> about the auras of the club's owner and one of her friends (who were,
> again, direct copies of the Vampire PCs), but I didn't do anything more
> with this.
>

I'd have to put in a second vote for Paranoia, myself. Or cross it with
Mekton, and have the riggers drooling and the rest of them scratching their
heads...

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:59:21 +0100
According to Charles S Remis, at 21:49 on 6 Mar 00, the word on the street
was...

> > Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
> > any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
> > to talk about...
> >
> > G
> > O
> >
> > T
> > O
> >
> > T
> > H
> > E
> >
> > N
> > E
> > X
> > T
> >
> > P
> > O
> > S
> > T
> > ,
> >
> > O
> > K
> > A
> > Y
> > ?
> >
> > My first idea was for using WW's WoD...
>
> This sounds like it would be the most interesting from a
> roleplaying aspect, but I can see some serious problems
> with commingling the histories...you would need to decide
> whether vampires were around before the awakening...and
> if so, why they are weakening now that the awakening has
> arrived.

I've already got some ideas in that direction; basically it's more or less
that vampires have been around since as long as anyone can remember, and
SR's HMHVV-vampires are very handy in allowing the Masquerade to be
relaxed a bit -- after all, they can always blame things on an HMHVV-
patient. But like I said in another post, I'd probably use Mage instead.

> > KULT
>
> I'm not familiar enough with it to offer an opinion.

If you feel the WoD isn't dark enough, try to locate a Kult main book
(unfortunately it's out of print now :( ).

> > WORLD OF DARKNESS Mage
>
> This could be lots of fun also, and would be a lot easier
> to integrate. The awakening would play merry h**l with
> the technocracy...

What I was thinking of is that they lost control to the Traditions in the
early 21st century (allowing them to open people more to magick through
the Awakening), but they're making a comeback -- cybertechnology, the
Matrix, etc. would be mainly Technocracy-created stuff to try and
overshadow magic (without a "k"). The Sleepers, though, have managed to
take both and go their own course with them.

> > EARTHDAWN
>
> Personally, I never found ED that appealing, but if you
> like it, and you think your group would enjoy it, give it
> a shot.

Like I said, I don't really plan on doing an ED crossover, partly because
it's far too expected by the players once weird things and powerful
creatures start popping up. In fact, deliberately _not_ using ED will put
them on the wrong foot -- they'll assume it's a Horror when in fact
they're facing, say, some horrbile monsters from Kult.

> A further comment on the whole WOD of issue. WW has been
> heading in a very apocalyptic direction of late, so you
> would need to decide if you wanted to incorporate that.

Probably not, because I haven't followed the WoD very much. I own a few
books and that's it, so if I'm going to use it, I'll simply take the
situation from the main rulebooks and base a "future history" on that to
reach 2060.

> Along that line, you could have the PCs captured and
> frozen by a corp experimenting with cryo storage and
> have them wake up in any science fiction or post
> holocaust setting. Of course this wouldn't really be
> a crossover, just SR characters in another setting.
> It sure would keep the group together though :)

It's a nice idea, but it's not what I'm after... This is along the same
lines as the fantasy RPG crossover that was suggested by someone else.

> You could save the latter for a graceful exit...run
> SR until the PCs get scragged, then have them wake
> up instead of fading to black.

Hopefully, I won't need to do that for a pretty long time :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 10:59:21 +0100
According to kawaii, at 15:39 on 6 Mar 00, the word on the street was...

> > Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
> > any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
> > to talk about...
> >
> >
> > G
> > O
> >
> > T
> > O
> >
> > T
> > H
> > E
> >
> > N
> > E
> > X
> > T
> >
> > P
> > O
> > S
> > T
> > ,
> >
> > O
> > K
> > A
> > Y
> > ?
> >
>
> Here are a few more suggestions to be tossed out there:
>
> Paranoia - Nothing like hunting down corporate traitors ;)

That would work for a single session, maybe, but after that...?

> Torg - Another great system that wouldn't be that hard to incorporate. For
> example, Nippon Tech? =)
>
> Ninjas and Superspies - High Espionage Game?

Nice ideas, but they require me to buy the game and try to really
understand the background. The games I mentioned in my post are the ones I
already own that I feel could be crossed over with SR (I own plenty of
others, but there's no real point in doing, for example, a CP2020/SR or a
Twilight: 2000/SR crossover campaign if you ask me...).

> WoD - With world of darkness, might want to try one of the variant systems
> that your players might not know about, such as Kindred of the East
> (which, despite the name, shows that Eastern Vampires are *completely*
> different from Western ones), or any of the Eastern variants of the
> standard WoD. Hengeyokai and Land of Eight Million Dreams are two others
> that come to mind immediately.

I'd probably use Mage, to avoid doing too much with the existing Vampire
game. Plus, I think mages are much cooler than vampires :)

> Call of Cthulu - *grin* You knew someone would bring this one up:
> Shadowrunners out for a "normal" run, and some strange things start to
> happen...

That's my intention with Kult, too. I've never played CoC, so it has the
same problem as I mentioned above, of buying the books and understanding
the setting.

> Warhammer / AD&D - The classic fantasy characters that are tossed into a
> dark and gritty SR world via some combination of a Portable Hole and a Bag
> of Holding. The Runners come across these incredible retro-people and the
> fun starts. =)

And the fantay characters then quickly get slaughtered by modern firepower
and their clerics running out of spells due to a lack of gods to pray
to... No, this would have to be done the other way around, IMHO, but that
way it's not really a two-game crossover -- it's just SR characters tossed
into another game's setting, and that's not what I'm after. I want to make
it appear at the start as if it's normal SR, but during the adventures the
players will find out that there is something lurking underneath the
surface.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 02:18:11 -0800
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 1:59 AM
Subject: Re: Intentionally non-descriptive :)


> According to Charles S Remis, at 21:49 on 6 Mar 00, the word on the street
> was...
>
> > > Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to
keep
> > > any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm
going
> > > to talk about...
> > >
> > > G
> > > O
> > >
> > > T
> > > O
> > >
> > > T
> > > H
> > > E
> > >
> > > N
> > > E
> > > X
> > > T
> > >
> > > P
> > > O
> > > S
> > > T
> > > ,
> > >
> > > O
> > > K
> > > A
> > > Y
> > > ?

WoD: Vampire
> I've already got some ideas in that direction; basically it's more or less
> that vampires have been around since as long as anyone can remember, and
> SR's HMHVV-vampires are very handy in allowing the Masquerade to be
> relaxed a bit -- after all, they can always blame things on an HMHVV-
> patient. But like I said in another post, I'd probably use Mage instead.

Somewhat, though I suspect that the two "flavors" of vamps would NOT like
each other very much. Especially since SR vamps have a big edge in that they
only lose an Essence Point a month where WoD vamps lose one each day.

> > > WORLD OF DARKNESS Mage
> >
> > This could be lots of fun also, and would be a lot easier
> > to integrate. The awakening would play merry h**l with
> > the technocracy...
>
> What I was thinking of is that they lost control to the Traditions in the
> early 21st century (allowing them to open people more to magick through
> the Awakening), but they're making a comeback -- cybertechnology, the
> Matrix, etc. would be mainly Technocracy-created stuff to try and
> overshadow magic (without a "k"). The Sleepers, though, have managed to
> take both and go their own course with them.

In the WoD--SR crossover project I've pretty much dumped the Technocracy vs
Traditions as portrayed in the Mage books. Much of the difference comes from
the fact I've reexplained reality as NOT being consensual (which I believe
is necessary to control a BIG problem you would encounter with what
constitutes vulgar magick in SR). The techs really ARE the guardians of
reality in that setting.

Also, you really have to screw with the Mage cosmology to get it to fit with
SR. The biggest one is that there is no Deep Umbra as presented in M:TA.
It's also VERY hard to explain Horizon Realms as described in WoD. Not to
mention the various levels of the Umbra, the Gauntlet (which we have
ditched) and other assorted wierdness.

We've also seriously altered some aspects of WoD in the interests of total
compatibility. Hard to explain in a short email, but I could send the chat
logs from the group if you wish. There is also a eGroups list for this
http://www.egroups.com/group/wod-sr-crossover/info.html

> > > EARTHDAWN
> Like I said, I don't really plan on doing an ED crossover, partly because
> it's far too expected by the players once weird things and powerful
> creatures start popping up. In fact, deliberately _not_ using ED will put
> them on the wrong foot -- they'll assume it's a Horror when in fact
> they're facing, say, some horrbile monsters from Kult.

Well, what about variations of Horror Constructs never seen before? You can
keep the ED/SR "consistency" without moving too far afield for new threats.

> > A further comment on the whole WOD of issue. WW has been
> > heading in a very apocalyptic direction of late, so you
> > would need to decide if you wanted to incorporate that.
>
> Probably not, because I haven't followed the WoD very much. I own a few
> books and that's it, so if I'm going to use it, I'll simply take the
> situation from the main rulebooks and base a "future history" on that to
> reach 2060.

Well, the WoD history does not fit SR without extensive modification (IMHO).
Some aspects DO make a lot more sense if viewed along with Earthdawn
though...

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 13
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 11:06:55 -0500
Gurth wrote:
> G
> O
>
> T
> O
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> N
> E
> X
> T
>
> P
> O
> S
> T
> ,
>
> O
> K
> A
> Y
> ?
>
> KULT
> This is the option I like best at the moment. The SR campaign as we're
> running it now isn't a very bright future, but this would make
> it so much darker still.

Along this line, Call of Cuthulu (sp?) works really well in SR. I ran in a
crossover like this (basically, the GM just adapted a CoC module for SR)
and it was one of the best runs I've ever been on. We were all _really_
creeped out. We also all needed gene therapy at the end, but that's another
story.

The beauty of CoC is that, since the history is already "hidden" from the
public, you can pretty much pull what you want of it into SR without much
trouble. For that reason, CoC is a good choice for GMs who want to do
something a bit different in an existing campaign, but don't want to go the
full route into a different game.

Another game that can be borrowed from heavily is Unknown Armies, one of
the best games I've ever seen. I've been toying with a way to get its
excellent insanity rules converted to SR.

> WORLD OF DARKNESS
> This would mainly be Vampire and/or Mage, as I don't own any of
> the other games.

If your players like elves and the whole Celtic thing, you might look into
Changeling. Changeling deals mostly with the juxtaposition of reality with
the Faerie realm, which is sort of like a shadow world. This means it can
easily be pulled into SR without much work, as you can just slowly increase
the intrusion from/into the Faerie as the campaign progresses.

Gurth, if you want to pay for shipping, I've got a stack of Changeling
stuff that you can have. I got it free (from the same guy that GMed the CoC
run), but that's another story.

BTW, if you want to use Paranoia, there are actually some published
CP2000/Paranoia crossovers. The first one was something like Through the
Mirrorshades, which threw Alice in Wonderland into the mix as well. Like
most Paranoia products, reading them tends to be more enjoyable than
playing them. Three of the sample characters in Through the Mirrorshades
are particularly hilarious.

I ran Dark Conspiracy module as an SR run, and it turned out OK. Had to
play the astral card to explain the ending, but the rest was easily
SR-like.

Wordman
Message no. 14
From: Ahrain Ahrain_Drigar@*******.com
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 12:57:45 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2000 3:27 PM
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)


> Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
> any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
> to talk about...
>
>
> G
> O
>
> T
> O
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> N
> E
> X
> T
>
> P
> O
> S
> T
> ,
>
> O
> K
> A
> Y
> ?
>
> Right. The reason for the secrecy is that I want to ask your opinion about
> crossing SR with other games to create a campaign that is only SR at first
> sight, but as there is at least one of my players on this list, I can't do
> it in plain sight of everyone. Please respect the spoiler space :)
>

<SNIP>

My wife and I have been running/playing SR for about 10 years now, and have
had many different "crossovers". My last game went with a "Gen"
crossover
from the Wildstorm comics. (Team 7, NOT Gen 13). My player wanted to play
Grifter. Really good story line...Shadow corp vs. runner/runner vs. shadow
corp on a personal scale. (I used a shadow corp as the originator of the
Gen virus, they in turn sold it to the Gov.)

We have also used WoD for several years quite effectively. My wife even has
done some work on actual stat conv. and player rules for WoD characters
(Vamps, and Bete (shifters) mostly).

Cthulu has also been used, but the players never got far enough to find out
about anything.

Now Rifts has been the most unusual but most fun. My wife used the Dunky
"rift" as an actual rift of sorts. The characters went across to another
"dimension" (Metaplane???) and returned. They have been on the run
eversense. Someone witnessed them emerging from the "rift" and reported it
to the authorities....corp...etc. They REALLY want to know what's going on.
And who can the runners tell without bieng committed?

She kept it from being munchkinous by doing the rift ala Terminator style.
If you didn't go in bereft of all inorganic material, the rift "burned it
from you and you took damage from it. (Cyberware didn't count as you pay
essence for it...........)

They also have a "D-Bee" from the other side after them from something they
did across. He/she/it is slowly trying to gather some power here (not easy
in a non MEGA world)......and the story continues.
>
>
> Opinions, please?
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
> you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> ->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
>
> GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
> PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>
>
>
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:36:18 +0100
According to Tzeentch, at 2:18 on 7 Mar 00, the word on the street was...


> Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
> any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm
> going
> to talk about...
>
> G
> O
>
> T
> O
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> N
> E
> X
> T
>
> P
> O
> S
> T
> ,
>
> O
> K
> A
> Y
> ?
>
> WoD: Vampire
> Somewhat, though I suspect that the two "flavors" of vamps would NOT like
> each other very much. Especially since SR vamps have a big edge in that they
> only lose an Essence Point a month where WoD vamps lose one each day.

Not in my game. Should this ever come up in an adventure I'm running, 1
point of Essence per day is what I'll use. At least that way they need to
really think about what they're doing -- they can't kill one person and
then not feed again for another six months.

> WORLD OF DARKNESS Mage
> In the WoD--SR crossover project I've pretty much dumped the Technocracy vs
> Traditions as portrayed in the Mage books. Much of the difference comes from
> the fact I've reexplained reality as NOT being consensual (which I believe
> is necessary to control a BIG problem you would encounter with what
> constitutes vulgar magick in SR).

Well... no that I've really played with this, but it seems to me that
doing that takes away the very essence of what makes magick, magick in
Mage.

> Also, you really have to screw with the Mage cosmology to get it to fit
> with SR. The biggest one is that there is no Deep Umbra as presented in
> M:TA. It's also VERY hard to explain Horizon Realms as described in WoD.
> Not to mention the various levels of the Umbra, the Gauntlet (which we
> have ditched) and other assorted wierdness.

I never understood those bits anyway :) The main rulebook mentions them,
but doesn't really explain them at all. Wouldn't it be possible to just
treat them as metaplanes?

> We've also seriously altered some aspects of WoD in the interests of total
> compatibility. Hard to explain in a short email, but I could send the chat
> logs from the group if you wish. There is also a eGroups list for this
> http://www.egroups.com/group/wod-sr-crossover/info.html

Thanks, but I think I'll go with the Kult crossover instead of the WoD.
Kult appeals more to me, for some odd reason :)

> EARTHDAWN
> > Like I said, I don't really plan on doing an ED crossover, partly because
> > it's far too expected by the players once weird things and powerful
> > creatures start popping up. In fact, deliberately _not_ using ED will put
> > them on the wrong foot -- they'll assume it's a Horror when in fact
> > they're facing, say, some horrbile monsters from Kult.
>
> Well, what about variations of Horror Constructs never seen before? You can
> keep the ED/SR "consistency" without moving too far afield for new threats.

It's not that I want new threats -- I haven't come close to using
everything that's available in SR -- it's that I want to give a completely
unexpected twist to the game. The players know more or less how the SR
world works, so this is an attempt to turn what they think they know
upside-down. Then let them try and use their knowledge of the way the SR
world works, in attempting to come to grips with this whole other reality
that's there.

It's one of the reasons I'm strongly thinking of using Kult instead of the
World of Darkness -- with V:TM or M:TA, the PCs would discover another
layer underneath the one they're used to; with Kult, though, they find out
that what the think is real, is just an illusion. (That, BTW, is also what
made me mention Over The Edge -- it has the ultimate "You may think this
game is reality, but you're wrong" plotline, if you ask me).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 11:01:31 +0100
According to Wordman, at 11:06 on 7 Mar 00, the word on the street was...

> > G
> > O
> >
> > T
> > O
> >
> > T
> > H
> > E
> >
> > N
> > E
> > X
> > T
> >
> > P
> > O
> > S
> > T
> > ,
> >
> > O
> > K
> > A
> > Y
> > ?
> >
> > KULT
> > This is the option I like best at the moment. The SR campaign as we're
> > running it now isn't a very bright future, but this would make
> > it so much darker still.
>
> The beauty of CoC is that, since the history is already "hidden" from the
> public, you can pretty much pull what you want of it into SR without much
> trouble. For that reason, CoC is a good choice for GMs who want to do
> something a bit different in an existing campaign, but don't want to go the
> full route into a different game.

That's precisely what I'm after, yes. However, like I said in another
post, using CoC would require me to buy another game and get to grips with
that before I can do this. Although I've never played Kult, I have already
bought and read the main rulebook some time ago, so it is much easier to
go that route -- especially because, like in CoC, what goes on in Kult is
out of sight of the public, so the players and their characters needn't
know about it until they start encountering weird things that shouldn't be
in SR.

> Another game that can be borrowed from heavily is Unknown Armies, one of
> the best games I've ever seen. I've been toying with a way to get its
> excellent insanity rules converted to SR.

I think I'll need to look into that as well. I heard plenty of things
about it, but I haven't actually read any of it (yet).

> > WORLD OF DARKNESS
> > This would mainly be Vampire and/or Mage, as I don't own any of
> > the other games.
>
> If your players like elves and the whole Celtic thing, you might look into
> Changeling. Changeling deals mostly with the juxtaposition of reality with
> the Faerie realm, which is sort of like a shadow world. This means it can
> easily be pulled into SR without much work, as you can just slowly increase
> the intrusion from/into the Faerie as the campaign progresses.

Would the Faerie supplement for Ars Magica work as well? :)

> Gurth, if you want to pay for shipping, I've got a stack of Changeling
> stuff that you can have. I got it free (from the same guy that GMed the CoC
> run), but that's another story.

I'll contact you about this through private e-mail.

> BTW, if you want to use Paranoia, there are actually some published
> CP2000/Paranoia crossovers. The first one was something like Through the
> Mirrorshades, which threw Alice in Wonderland into the mix as well.

So it's a bit like Orcbusters, but with cyberpunk instead of fantasy?

Still, I doubt you can really make a campaign out of it if you want to
stay serious and keep the players' interest in the whole thing.

> Like most Paranoia products, reading them tends to be more enjoyable
> than playing them. Three of the sample characters in Through the
> Mirrorshades are particularly hilarious.

The players never seem to go as far as the books seem to think in
Paranoia. For some reason, they try to stick together instead of making
each others lives miserable (and short) :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Because there are no stories about romance, no fairy-tale endings. Before
you run out and change the world, ask yourself, what do you really want?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Lester Ward lward@*******.com
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:58:51 -0500
Gurth wrote:
> G
> O
>
> T
> O
>
> T
> H
> E
>
> N
> E
> X
> T
>
> P
> O
> S
> T
> ,
>
> O
> K
> A
> Y
> ?

I thought of a couple other games with crossover potential:

In Nomine. In any time, any place, you can always fit in the War.

Primal Order. Old gods, new gods, red gods, blue gods.
Message no. 18
From: Cortland Guse cortland.guse@**.sympatico.ca
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 09:59:56 -0000
[Cortland Guse] As an Inomine player and GM ..... I whole heartedly agree!
Shadowrun and Inomine mesh together verry easily and can create a very
dark or very bright future :)
Message no. 19
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 14:07:38 -0700
Gurth wrote:
>Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
>any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
>to talk about...
>
>
>G
>O
>
>T
>O
>
>T
>H
>E
>
>N
>E
>X
>T
>
>P
>O
>S
>T
>,
>
>O
>K
>A
>Y
>?
>
>Right. The reason for the secrecy is that I want to ask your opinion about
>crossing SR with other games to create a campaign that is only SR at first
>sight, but as there is at least one of my players on this list, I can't do
>it in plain sight of everyone. Please respect the spoiler space :)

[snip]

>Opinions, please?

SR + Star Trek the Next Generation

The world of shadowrun is a duplicate of Earth, with the same history right
up until the awakening. However, it is not earth and it's solar system is
far from the solar system of the real earth.

A federation explorer ship discovered the world of Shadowrun 10 years
ago. The Federation has stationed a research ship to discover why this
world and system are exactly like earths. Why there is "magic"
present. They periodically beam scientists down to the planet surface to
investigate anomalies. The force that is the source of shadowrun's "magic"
may or may not interfere with the Federation. The powers that be in
Shadowrun (Megacorps, dragons, etc) will definitely be interested in anyone
from the Federation (especially if a phaser or tricorder is recovered).

Have fun :)

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"The pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we are
permitted to remain children all of our lives."
-Einstein
Message no. 20
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 16:34:27 -0500
At 04:07 PM 3/10/00, dbuehrer@******.carl.org wrote:

>Gurth wrote:
>>Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to keep
>>any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm going
>>to talk about...
>>
>>
>>G
>>O
>>
>>T
>>O
>>
>>T
>>H
>>E
>>
>>N
>>E
>>X
>>T
>>
>>P
>>O
>>S
>>T
>>,
>>
>>O
>>K
>>A
>>Y
>>?
>>
>>Right. The reason for the secrecy is that I want to ask your opinion about
>>crossing SR with other games to create a campaign that is only SR at first
>>sight, but as there is at least one of my players on this list, I can't do
>>it in plain sight of everyone. Please respect the spoiler space :)
>
>[snip]
>
>>Opinions, please?
>
>SR + Star Trek the Next Generation
>
>The world of shadowrun is a duplicate of Earth, with the same history
>right up until the awakening. However, it is not earth and it's solar
>system is far from the solar system of the real earth.
>
>A federation explorer ship discovered the world of Shadowrun 10 years
>ago. The Federation has stationed a research ship to discover why this
>world and system are exactly like earths. Why there is "magic"
>present. They periodically beam scientists down to the planet surface to
>investigate anomalies. The force that is the source of shadowrun's
>"magic" may or may not interfere with the Federation. The powers that be
>in Shadowrun (Megacorps, dragons, etc) will definitely be interested in
>anyone from the Federation (especially if a phaser or tricorder is recovered).

That's sick, twisted and wrong. I love it! Spend a weekend watching all of
those alternate earth episodes of the original series and go to town on
your players. Especially when they beam out.

"Okay, so I was chasing this guy with pointy ears around town. I thought he
was an elf, but something seemed hincky. I finally cornered him, then he
whispered something and made a gesture to his shirt. Then the fragger was
gone! He didn't go invisible, I checked in astral. He just teleported out
of there!!"

<whack>
"Sommers, quit hitting the chips. Teleportation is impossible according to
all the laws of magic."



Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 21
From: Chipeloi chipeloi@***.nl
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 02:08:41 +0100
ok i don't know what this tread is about
but since i got some time:

please ppl remember not all thing should be bad

i say this becos i just know it got to do with the campain we play
(since the other group is playing on/over the edge)


you wil send all things horrible that can/wil happen to us

now start thinking about good things that can happen to us =)
Message no. 22
From: Anders Swenson anders@**********.com
Subject: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 23:11:08 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: Tzeentch <tzeentch666@*********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: Intentionally non-descriptive :)


> From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
> To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 1:59 AM
> Subject: Re: Intentionally non-descriptive :)
>
>
> > According to Charles S Remis, at 21:49 on 6 Mar 00, the word on the
street
> > was...
> >
> > > > Before I get to what I want to say, first a bit of spoiler space to
> keep
> > > > any of my players who may be on the list, in the dark about what I'm
> going
> > > > to talk about...
> > > >
> > > > G
> > > > O
> > > >
> > > > T
> > > > O
> > > >
> > > > T
> > > > H
> > > > E
> > > >
> > > > N
> > > > E
> > > > X
> > > > T
> > > >
> > > > P
> > > > O
> > > > S
> > > > T
> > > > ,
> > > >
> > > > O
> > > > K
> > > > A
> > > > Y
> > > > ?
>
> WoD: Vampire
> > I've already got some ideas in that direction; basically it's more or
less
> > that vampires have been around since as long as anyone can remember, and
> > SR's HMHVV-vampires are very handy in allowing the Masquerade to be
> > relaxed a bit -- after all, they can always blame things on an HMHVV-
> > patient. But like I said in another post, I'd probably use Mage instead.
>
> Somewhat, though I suspect that the two "flavors" of vamps would NOT like
> each other very much. Especially since SR vamps have a big edge in that
they
> only lose an Essence Point a month where WoD vamps lose one each day.
>
> > > > WORLD OF DARKNESS Mage
> > >
> > > This could be lots of fun also, and would be a lot easier
> > > to integrate. The awakening would play merry h**l with
> > > the technocracy...
> >
> > What I was thinking of is that they lost control to the Traditions in
the
> > early 21st century (allowing them to open people more to magick through
> > the Awakening), but they're making a comeback -- cybertechnology, the
> > Matrix, etc. would be mainly Technocracy-created stuff to try and
> > overshadow magic (without a "k"). The Sleepers, though, have managed
to
> > take both and go their own course with them.
>
> In the WoD--SR crossover project I've pretty much dumped the Technocracy
vs
> Traditions as portrayed in the Mage books. Much of the difference comes
from
> the fact I've reexplained reality as NOT being consensual (which I believe
> is necessary to control a BIG problem you would encounter with what
> constitutes vulgar magick in SR). The techs really ARE the guardians of
> reality in that setting.
>
> Also, you really have to screw with the Mage cosmology to get it to fit
with
> SR. The biggest one is that there is no Deep Umbra as presented in M:TA.
> It's also VERY hard to explain Horizon Realms as described in WoD. Not to
> mention the various levels of the Umbra, the Gauntlet (which we have
> ditched) and other assorted wierdness.

Actually, I've always identified the Metaplanes as specialized Umbral Realms
relevant to the Sorcereer/Shaman cosmology. Nothing sez that the Metaplanes
of MITS are the only ones, nor that the Deep Umbra (outer space?) couldn't
contain CoC eldar entities... I've been messing with all the Dark games for
so long that I let them all run together. --Anders

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Thwap!