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Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:25:35 EDT
Okay, as I said, I was about to leap headlong into this ... Arno should be
happy with me...

Interior Totems/Icons of Power....(beyond Cyberpirates)

Orishas (the Gods of the Ife')

Ife' (the Land)

Olorun (the Sky)

Shango (the Storm) (I have found variation spellings over the years)

Orisha-nla (the Shadows of the World, the Land's Shadow)

Obatala (the Brother of Man) (some places use this to mean "a Speaker of the
People")(he is also known as the "Bearer of the White Cloth", which because
of
it's rarity was believed to be the patron of good tidings and material
recognition)

Eshu (Luck, Whim, Change, Chance)

Erinle (the Fire, the Spark of Fire)

Mawu (Godmother, the Mother of the Gods)

Oshunmare (I pronounced this out the other day) (the Rainbow Serpent)**

Lido (the Animate, the Soul of Man, the Primal Essence)(has many relationships
in belief to the Egyptian "Ka")

Orunmilla (the Lawgiver, one of the Brothers...Eshu is the other)

Moremi (the Birds, the Winged Children)

Ogun (the Iron, the Strength...please note familiarities with the Voudon Loa
from the Awakenings)

Ochun (Water, Sweet Water of Life)

Adiremi (the Wind, Bearer of Voices)

Osain (the Leaves, the Trees that Speak of the Void)

Agemo (the Lizard, the Serpent's Child)



**Oshunmare appears in both the African and Australian mythoi FYI


Now I admit that I have only given a few pieces of the information that I
found. In comparing this information to what already exists with SR, I have
found more than a few good comparisons.

Ife' IMO would be like the Loa's "Guinee", a permanent but as yet not
completely understood "Place" of permanence within the vastness of the
Metaplanes. It is a reflection of the World as we know it. Ife' is also the
force that is the Land, and as such could be compared to much.

Ogun exists in SR already, the Warrior, Leader, Soldier. It is his gift that
his voudon are bestowed the "Iron-like Skin" of Ogun himself. Indeed, the two
are comparable, yet they are also different. In Ife', Ogun is far from the
most influential, yet it is within his realm of influence that Ife' can be
severed from Earth directly. In SR terms, that would indicate shutting out
the door(s) that exist between the two places.

Moremi is also a messenger, that which brings the secrets of Osain in whose
leaves that pattern of life can be learned and cultivated to the world around
us.

The Orishas are very "co-dependent", in that one of them cannot fully exist
without another.

For example, Ife' would die were it not for Shango's rains or Ochun's waters.
Ochun himself would wither away into hiding were it not for Osain's shade or
Shango's gift as well.

Moremi would not be able to fly without the blessing of Adiremi or Olorun.
Orisha-nla would not have definition without the words of Orunmilla or the
Whim of Eshu.


That is a start folks...let's run with this for a while...

-K
Message no. 2
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:34:31 -0400
A lot of those totems/idols/loas appear to be simply different spellings or
alternate names for loas that appear in Awakenings. Steve Kenson wrote
something up a few years back that expands on the voudoun system (since
there are other Central and South American traditions that are very
similar). I know it's available on AOL (which I know you are on Keith) and
it's also in Paolo's Archives, your one-stop shopping place for all your
Shadowrun needs.

Of course, given that voudoun is essentially a modification/adaption of
Western African tribal beliefs, it makes sense that those loas would be
similar to that of voudoun. Magical traditions would likely be similar also.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 3
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:59:57 +0200
On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:25:35 EDT, Ereskanti wrote:

>Okay, as I said, I was about to leap headlong into this ... Arno should be
>happy with me...

I am :-)

But a question: where are these from? North, South, West or east of the
continent, voodoo or what?
You refer to Cyberpirates, but I don't know that book, and I don't know
in which direction or sense your Totems are beyond it.

Arno

--
Arno
*********************************************************************
Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
(And send me a note when you notice that
the reply-to-address points to the list!)
*********************************************************************
Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:34:02 EDT
In a message dated 4/23/98 11:56:19 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
erikj@****.COM writes:

> A lot of those totems/idols/loas appear to be simply different spellings or
> alternate names for loas that appear in Awakenings. Steve Kenson wrote
> something up a few years back that expands on the voudoun system (since
> there are other Central and South American traditions that are very
> similar). I know it's available on AOL (which I know you are on Keith) and
> it's also in Paolo's Archives, your one-stop shopping place for all your
> Shadowrun needs.

Oh what a totally disgraceful plug!!! :)

> Of course, given that voudoun is essentially a modification/adaption of
> Western African tribal beliefs, it makes sense that those loas would be
> similar to that of voudoun. Magical traditions would likely be similar
also.

Actually, what I think is funny is that quite a bit of this I knew of from WAY
before I ever played SR. I don't know how much stuff Steve drew from where,
but I had heard about his previous information. As for that information that
is on AOL...to be honest, I haven't found it. Keyword Anyone???

-K
Message no. 5
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:18:19 -0400
At 06:34 PM 4/23/98 EDT, you wrote:

>> A lot of those totems/idols/loas appear to be simply different spellings or
>> alternate names for loas that appear in Awakenings. Steve Kenson wrote
>> something up a few years back that expands on the voudoun system (since
>> there are other Central and South American traditions that are very
>> similar). I know it's available on AOL (which I know you are on Keith)
and
>> it's also in Paolo's Archives, your one-stop shopping place for all your
>> Shadowrun needs.
>
>Oh what a totally disgraceful plug!!! :)

For who, Steve or Paolo? ;-) Both have outstanding information, one just
happens to be easier to get that information from 24/7. I can remember
accessing Paolo's site back in the day using Gopher and not having any of
those pretty pictures to look at...it's still the best SR site, bar none,
out there today. Frag, I think FASA should publish not only their address
on all their SR books, but also Paolo's Archive.

And it's not disgraceful if I actually do believe it Keith.


>Actually, what I think is funny is that quite a bit of this I knew of from
WAY
>before I ever played SR. I don't know how much stuff Steve drew from where,
>but I had heard about his previous information. As for that information that
>is on AOL...to be honest, I haven't found it. Keyword Anyone???

I'm shocked and horrified Keith. The *ONLY* reason I still keep AOL for my
home e-mail is the access to the RPG Forum, (Keyword: RPG) which has all
sorts of great files for all sort of games there. Okay, not all of them
are great. But a few are. You could also try "GCS" which will take you in
a similar direction, but that's where the gaming companies hang out. FASA
has their rep on their board, Randall (FASAinfo@***.com) who answers
questions regarding all three of FASA's games on that board.

Nowadays, a lot of the info on the RPG boards can also be found on various
web sites, but it's generally easier to download and find on AOL's boards.

And hey, Keith, look hard enough and you'll find some stuff from me there...

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 6
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:33:26 EDT
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_893385207_boundary
Content-ID: <0_893385207@****_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Sorry, about this forwarding...Arno's reply-to field is overriding the
lists...I'm sending this again...

-K

--part0_893385207_boundary
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From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.com>
Return-path: <Ereskanti@***.com>
To: arlehma@***.net
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:30:51 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/23/98 3:42:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
arlehma@***.net writes:

> But a question: where are these from? North, South, West or east of the
> continent, voodoo or what?
> You refer to Cyberpirates, but I don't know that book, and I don't know
> in which direction or sense your Totems are beyond it.
>
Good question, something that I forgot entirely...please forgive me.

Most of the information that I sent out was referant of the Centralmost parts
of Africa and the Western Coastal/Shoal regions. The "Arab States" that Erik
keeps referring to and believing that "Muslim" is the big religion of is
Egypt, Sudan (north and eastern), Libya, Morocco and Algeria (which btw,
mostly overlaps the First and Third Kingdoms of Egypt and the Phoenician lands
as well).

The "Pre-Voudon" material is from the more unreachable areas such ad Nigeria,
Cameroon, Former Zaire, Central Africa, Angola, Zambia, etc.... It of course
spread differently. In this case, the Sahara desert created the majority of
the cultural barriers instead of a large body of water (like the Atlantic or
Mediterranean). This is the other reason the Nile River was such a huge part.

I honestly do not have the much recollection at the moment from Southernmost
Africa beyond some massively exagerated rumors (such as the thing that made me
comment about the Druids trying to get control of some lands).

ON SR TOPIC

How -International- is everyone's games out there?

I hear lots about specific cities and the like, but does anyone really have a
group that travels way more extensively than that. After Cyberpirates and R2
came out, the group here basically decided they had been more
"Mercenarial/Piratish" than runnerish from the sheer fact of their contact
list (Phillipines, "Kingdoms Egyptian", Tir Na nOg, U/CAS, Aztlaner,
Amazonian....hell, even the Nordic Lands...)

But, as I've said before, our group here is -WAY- different than the norm of
shadowrun.

-K

--part0_893385207_boundary--
Message no. 7
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:58:48 -0400
At 10:33 PM 4/23/98 EDT, you wrote:

>Most of the information that I sent out was referant of the Centralmost parts
>of Africa and the Western Coastal/Shoal regions. The "Arab States" that
Erik
>keeps referring to and believing that "Muslim" is the big religion of is
>Egypt, Sudan (north and eastern), Libya, Morocco and Algeria (which btw,
>mostly overlaps the First and Third Kingdoms of Egypt and the Phoenician
lands
>as well).

Keith, I beg you, please use the proper terms. The religion is Islam, the
followers of Islam are called Muslims. I'm not Muslim, but the misuse
bothers me.

Anyway, look at modern Africa; Islam is the dominant religion. More people
practice Islam than the various branches of Christianity. Not everyone of
those Muslims are in the Middle East; the Islam is very popular in places
like Pakistan, India (a growing minority), Bangladesh, and in much of
Africa. Islam is also one of the fastest growing religions and here,
stateside, I know I'm beginning to bump into more and more Muslims.

Frag, by 205X, there will probably be over a billion Muslims in the world,
without too much difficulty. It'll probably be the "number one" religion
in the world, even with the strangeness and growth of cults following the
Awakening.

>The "Pre-Voudon" material is from the more unreachable areas such ad
Nigeria,
>Cameroon, Former Zaire, Central Africa, Angola, Zambia, etc.... It of course
>spread differently. In this case, the Sahara desert created the majority of
>the cultural barriers instead of a large body of water (like the Atlantic or
>Mediterranean). This is the other reason the Nile River was such a huge
part.

Now this is true to a great degree. The Sahara has had a major cultural
impact on Africa. It still does; because it is actually growing, it's
changing population densities and migration patterns and basic ways of
life; small tribes that had lived for centuries at the edge of the desert
suddenly, within decades, find themselves in the middle of the desert.
That's a major change.

>How -International- is everyone's games out there?

I think my groups (GMed or played) went to the UK a time or two. Went to
Amazonia once. Hawai'i once. Everything else was within North America.
And our group thought we were pretty cosmopolitan for running in CalFree,
Denver, DC, Peublo, and so on.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 8
From: Phil Levis <pal@**.BROWN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:49:34 -0400
The Sahara is not growing. There was a great deal of environmental concern
in the 1980's when it was discovered that the Sahara's boundary was slowly
increasing each year; since then, evidence has shown that it expands and
recedes, much like the waves of the sea. Although it is possible that it
might expand enough to cause some problems, it's not going to start
overwhelming cities, unless someone is doing something to make it act
so...

Phil

On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

> At 10:33 PM 4/23/98 EDT, someone claimed:
>
> >The "Pre-Voudon" material is from the more unreachable areas such ad
Nigeria,
> >Cameroon, Former Zaire, Central Africa, Angola, Zambia, etc.... It of course
> >spread differently. In this case, the Sahara desert created the majority of
> >the cultural barriers instead of a large body of water (like the Atlantic or
> >Mediterranean). This is the other reason the Nile River was such a huge
> part.
>
> Now this is true to a great degree. The Sahara has had a major cultural
> impact on Africa. It still does; because it is actually growing, it's
> changing population densities and migration patterns and basic ways of
> life; small tribes that had lived for centuries at the edge of the desert
> suddenly, within decades, find themselves in the middle of the desert.
> That's a major change.
Message no. 9
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:06:16 +0200
From the text of this message I assume this was meant to go to the
list. So here it is.

=================¾GIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
>Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68] by in1.ibm.net id 893385065.121478-1 ;
Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:31:05 +0000
>Received: from Ereskanti@***.com
> by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 2TBDa16995
> for <arlehma@***.net>; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:30:51 +2000 (EDT)
>From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.com>
>Message-ID: <19756735.353ff95c@***.com>
>Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:30:51 EDT
>To: arlehma@***.net
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
>Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120
>

In a message dated 4/23/98 3:42:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
arlehma@***.net writes:

> But a question: where are these from? North, South, West or east of the
> continent, voodoo or what?
> You refer to Cyberpirates, but I don't know that book, and I don't know
> in which direction or sense your Totems are beyond it.
>
Good question, something that I forgot entirely...please forgive me.

Most of the information that I sent out was referant of the Centralmost
parts
of Africa and the Western Coastal/Shoal regions. The "Arab States"
that Erik
keeps referring to and believing that "Muslim" is the big religion of
is
Egypt, Sudan (north and eastern), Libya, Morocco and Algeria (which
btw,
mostly overlaps the First and Third Kingdoms of Egypt and the
Phoenician lands
as well).

The "Pre-Voudon" material is from the more unreachable areas such ad
Nigeria,
Cameroon, Former Zaire, Central Africa, Angola, Zambia, etc.... It of
course
spread differently. In this case, the Sahara desert created the
majority of
the cultural barriers instead of a large body of water (like the
Atlantic or
Mediterranean). This is the other reason the Nile River was such a
huge part.

I honestly do not have the much recollection at the moment from
Southernmost
Africa beyond some massively exagerated rumors (such as the thing that
made me
comment about the Druids trying to get control of some lands).

ON SR TOPIC

How -International- is everyone's games out there?

I hear lots about specific cities and the like, but does anyone really
have a
group that travels way more extensively than that. After Cyberpirates
and R2
came out, the group here basically decided they had been more
"Mercenarial/Piratish" than runnerish from the sheer fact of their
contact
list (Phillipines, "Kingdoms Egyptian", Tir Na nOg, U/CAS, Aztlaner,
Amazonian....hell, even the Nordic Lands...)

But, as I've said before, our group here is -WAY- different than the
norm of
shadowrun.

-K


===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================

--
Arno Lehmann
arlehma@***.net http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Cabana/5274/
arno@*******.ast.uct.ac.za http://pinguin.ast.uct.ac.za
Message no. 10
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:46:16 -0400
At 02:49 PM 4/24/98 -0400, you wrote:
>The Sahara is not growing. There was a great deal of environmental concern
>in the 1980's when it was discovered that the Sahara's boundary was slowly
>increasing each year; since then, evidence has shown that it expands and
>recedes, much like the waves of the sea. Although it is possible that it
>might expand enough to cause some problems, it's not going to start
>overwhelming cities, unless someone is doing something to make it act
>so...
>
Ah, okay. I've old information.

But the fact does remain that the expansion of the Sahara *has* swallowed
some small villages and *has* altered the lives of thousands of people
within the last decade or two.

I do recall some fear that the Sahara *has* actually expanded on a more
permanent basis due to primitive farming techniques that leach the soil or
something. Don't know what ever happened with this theory though.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 11
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:17:58 -0600
Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ At 02:49 PM 4/24/98 -0400, you wrote:
/ >The Sahara is not growing. There was a great deal of environmental concern
/ >in the 1980's when it was discovered that the Sahara's boundary was slowly
/ >increasing each year; since then, evidence has shown that it expands and
/ >recedes, much like the waves of the sea. Although it is possible that it
/ >might expand enough to cause some problems, it's not going to start
/ >overwhelming cities, unless someone is doing something to make it act
/ >so...
/ >
/ Ah, okay. I've old information.
/
/ But the fact does remain that the expansion of the Sahara *has* swallowed
/ some small villages and *has* altered the lives of thousands of people
/ within the last decade or two.
/
/ I do recall some fear that the Sahara *has* actually expanded on a more
/ permanent basis due to primitive farming techniques that leach the soil or
/ something. Don't know what ever happened with this theory though.

Archeologists and Geologists have found evidence that the Sahara used
to be *much* smaller, and has swallowed entire civilizations over the
last 5-10 thousand years. There's evidence that large sections used
to be verdant belts.

-David
--
"Society will become divided into technology `haves' and `have nots.'
Eventually the two groups will take different evolutionary paths.
Then, as now, the `have nots' will be the policy makers."
- Dogbert the Futurist

"Oog make mission statement."
- anonymous
--
ShadowRN GridSec
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 12
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:32:23 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/98 1:04:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> Frag, by 205X, there will probably be over a billion Muslims in the world,
> without too much difficulty. It'll probably be the "number one" religion
> in the world, even with the strangeness and growth of cults following the
> Awakening.

Uh, pardon the interupt...I know that Muslim is a huge one...I was thinking of
the Awakenings Impact upon the tribal and infra-continental culture structure.
I know how big that religion is...I was merely pointing out that the more into
the interior one gets, the less impactive it is going to be.

-K
Message no. 13
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:38:38 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/98 4:17:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

> Archeologists and Geologists have found evidence that the Sahara used
> to be *much* smaller, and has swallowed entire civilizations over the
> last 5-10 thousand years. There's evidence that large sections used
> to be verdant belts.
>
> -David
>
VERY good David, nice point...IF we were to retain the 5,000 year concept,
then we could utilize it into SR's POV with little difficulty. Perhaps it
takes magical force to "reduce the scale" of the Sahara. NOT in so gross a
term as a direct action, but over time, like assisting in crop growth and
irrigation techniques...fertilizing things correctly...etcetera....

-K
Message no. 14
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:39:44 -0500
At 01:58 PM 98-04-24 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:33 PM 4/23/98 EDT, you wrote:
>
>>Most of the information that I sent out was referant of the Centralmost
parts
>>of Africa and the Western Coastal/Shoal regions. The "Arab States" that
Erik
>>keeps referring to and believing that "Muslim" is the big religion of is
>>Egypt, Sudan (north and eastern), Libya, Morocco and Algeria (which btw,
>>mostly overlaps the First and Third Kingdoms of Egypt and the Phoenician
>lands
>>as well).
>
>Keith, I beg you, please use the proper terms. The religion is Islam, the
>followers of Islam are called Muslims. I'm not Muslim, but the misuse
>bothers me.
>
>Anyway, look at modern Africa; Islam is the dominant religion. More people
>practice Islam than the various branches of Christianity. Not everyone of
>those Muslims are in the Middle East; the Islam is very popular in places
>like Pakistan, India (a growing minority), Bangladesh, and in much of
>Africa. Islam is also one of the fastest growing religions and here,
>stateside, I know I'm beginning to bump into more and more Muslims.
>
>Frag, by 205X, there will probably be over a billion Muslims in the world,
>without too much difficulty. It'll probably be the "number one" religion
>in the world, even with the strangeness and growth of cults following the
>Awakening.
>
Hum I don't know about that. I've never really worked out religouse
dynamics in my game but I'd think the awakening would have really stirred
up a hornets nest. I'm going to take the easy way out and say that most
people in 205X would be atheists or non-praticing members of there
religion. That said...


Native pratices are big on the north american contenet. Within magical
circles the two most common religions are wicca and native pratices (with
some druidism thrown in). Kabalistic Judism is also making somewhat of a
resurgence (not a major sect). The religouse situation in the UCAS and CAS
is complex. Most (judo)christian sects don't see magic in a very positive
light and by implication don't see metahumans (expesially orcs and trolls)
in a good light. This has led a bastardized form of wicca (basically wicca
minus the magic, less nature oriented and with a good chunck of god/desses
out to battle the oppresers) to become a major religion amoung the
underclass. This is adding to a volintile situation in the UCAS where a
good portion of the upper class views magic as evil whereas the lower
classes have less of a problem with it. With the present anti-magic
hystaria sweaping most of the UCAS the barrens are actually one of the
safer places to be a mage. The only thing keeping the entire situation
from blowing sky hight is that lower class celticism has no churches to bomb.

I'm not to sure what happened to Islam.

Most of the christian sects in the UCAS are hurting for membership. The
mormons are fighting a gerrilla war against the NAN in Utah there
membership has really taken a dive outside of the former US do to lack of
leadership. I'd say there are now probably several different sects of
mormonism worldwide.

SteveD
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 15
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:17:32 -0500
----------
> From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>

> Most (judo)christian sects don't see magic in a very positive
> light and by implication don't see metahumans (expesially orcs and
trolls)
> in a good light.

I think you need to read your Grimiore. After the Awakening, one of the
Popes came out with a Papal Bull. His points were that:
1. Metahumans possessed souls and were capable of receiving salvation.
Discrimination against metahumans is not Christian
2. Sorcery is a skill, and like any other human talent, can be put to
evil or good uses. Its the act preformed that counts, not that you used
sorcery to perform it.
3. Spirits are manifestations of nature, therefore not evil. He went on
to say that conjuring touched on many questions of faith, however, so it
should only be practiced by clergy under certain circumstances.

Most Christian religions went along with this, though I can definitely
see some Protestant sects (Calvinism and the Southern Baptists,
especially) being real hard-asses about magic, and metahumans are going to
face discrimination in a lot of places (esp. the CAS).

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 16
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:21:24 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/98 12:03:53 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU writes:

> I'm not to sure what happened to Islam.

I have a wonderful thought. IIRC, many parts of Islamic Beliefs are VERY
anti-magically oriented (harder forms at least). With the Awakening's coming,
those beliefs are under a HUGE amount of pressure (remember Tehran anyone?).

And Erik, I had a talk with a guy (native and Islamic, just open minded) from
Nigeria. Islam -is- a huge belief structure, but it has several "holes" in it
as he put it.

> Most of the christian sects in the UCAS are hurting for membership. The
> mormons are fighting a gerrilla war against the NAN in Utah there
> membership has really taken a dive outside of the former US do to lack of
> leadership. I'd say there are now probably several different sects of
> mormonism worldwide.
>
> SteveD
> Stephen Delear

Steve, I really hope this last part is just your own games, because I would
find it interesting that the Mormon religion would have any problems with the
NAN, especially since the NAN and the Mormons have various agreements, as per
the NAN books.

Also, please note that the Mormon religion is FAR more accepting of magic,
miracles and witchcraft in general than a large portion of the "other Hebrew-
Descendant Faiths". Accepting meaning they have rules concerning it in nearly
every way.

-K
Message no. 17
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:07:42 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 25 April 1998 05:59
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...



>underclass. This is adding to a volintile situation in the UCAS where a
>good portion of the upper class views magic as evil whereas the lower
>classes have less of a problem with it. With the present anti-magic
>hystaria sweaping most of the UCAS the barrens are actually one of the
>safer places to be a mage. The only thing keeping the entire situation
>from blowing sky hight is that lower class celticism has no churches to
bomb.


I was actually thinking along similar lines here, but for a different
reason. Magic is a kind of 'great equalizer' between the haves and
have-nots, since the talent can turn up anywhere. Okay, money is handy for
training, but not essential, so the upper classes could see magic as a real
threat to holding onto there positions.

I suppose this follows on from the 'havenots' amerinds taking the country
back from the 'haves' US and Canadian govs.

Mark
Message no. 18
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:13:44 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 25 April 1998 06:31
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...


>----------
>> From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
>
>> Most (judo)christian sects don't see magic in a very positive
>> light and by implication don't see metahumans (expesially orcs and
>trolls)
>> in a good light.
>
> I think you need to read your Grimiore. After the Awakening, one
of the
>Popes came out with a Papal Bull. His points were that:
> 1. Metahumans possessed souls and were capable of receiving
salvation.
>Discrimination against metahumans is not Christian
> 2. Sorcery is a skill, and like any other human talent, can be put
to
>evil or good uses. Its the act preformed that counts, not that you used
>sorcery to perform it.
> 3. Spirits are manifestations of nature, therefore not evil. He
went on
>to say that conjuring touched on many questions of faith, however, so it
>should only be practiced by clergy under certain circumstances.
>


I put this one down to ethics. If spirits really are independent, sentient
creatures, imposing your will on them simply isn't a very nice thing to do
under most circumstances.

Mark
Message no. 19
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:29:23 -0600
Ereskanti wrote:
/
/ In a message dated 4/24/98 4:17:47 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
/ dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:
/
/ > Archeologists and Geologists have found evidence that the Sahara used
/ > to be *much* smaller, and has swallowed entire civilizations over the
/ > last 5-10 thousand years. There's evidence that large sections used
/ > to be verdant belts.
/
/ VERY good David, nice point...IF we were to retain the 5,000 year concept,
/ then we could utilize it into SR's POV with little difficulty. Perhaps it
/ takes magical force to "reduce the scale" of the Sahara. NOT in so gross a
/ term as a direct action, but over time, like assisting in crop growth and
/ irrigation techniques...fertilizing things correctly...etcetera....

And then there are cases when efficient irrigation creates a
dessert. This happened in the area of Iraq/Iran thousands of years
ago. The people living there developed irrigation and built canals
to channel water to their cropland. However, when the water
evaporated it left salt deposits. Over time the salt poisoned the
soil. The moved their canals and crops as the land became poisoned,
further increasing the ammount of land that was poisoned (by
irrigating and salting the soil). Within a couple of hundred years
an enormous area was poisoned and couldn't support plant life.

A similar situation is occuring in California. After irrigating for
a season and harvesting the crops, salt and mineral deposits are left
behind. Farmers remove the salt by flooding their fields (which
washes away the salt). The problem is that the salt is now in the
water table, which is rising because of the water added to it from
irrigation. When the saltwater rises high enough it will poison
thousands of acres of land. They still haven't figured out how to
solve the problem. And farmers who rely on their crops to make money
to survive continue to plant, irrigate, and harvest, adding more salt
and water to the water table.

-David
--
"That which we do not know supports that which we know."
- Joseph Campbell
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 20
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:25:31 -0500
>Steve, I really hope this last part is just your own games, because I would
>find it interesting that the Mormon religion would have any problems with the
>NAN, especially since the NAN and the Mormons have various agreements, as per
>the NAN books.

Um I don't have the NAN books. I just figured with the forced repatriation
of white "immigrants" as per the BBB and the fact that I remember hearing
somewhere the Salt Lake City had some form of religouse signifigance in the
mormon faith that they wouldn't be to happy to go. Moral of this story
FASA needs to put the NAN books, The Ter book and the Aztlan book all into
one big north america book/box set.
>
>Also, please note that the Mormon religion is FAR more accepting of magic,
>miracles and witchcraft in general than a large portion of the "other Hebrew-
>Descendant Faiths". Accepting meaning they have rules concerning it in
nearly
>every way.

Noted. If they didn't splinter during the awakening they would probably be
one of the bigger sects in 205X however it's the nature of christian sects
to splinter and by 205X the Mormons are about do.

SteveD
>-K
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 21
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:33:14 -0500
>
> Most Christian religions went along with this, though I can
definitely
>see some Protestant sects (Calvinism and the Southern Baptists,
>especially) being real hard-asses about magic, and metahumans are going to
>face discrimination in a lot of places (esp. the CAS).

I'd say a lot more didn't go along with it then that. I can't really see a
Holly Roller sect of the Church of Christ embrasing magic any time soon.
Of course with evangalistic sects it the racial makeup of the congregation
probably has alot to do with it. Think of most peoples oppinions of magic
in 205X to be akin to there opinions about AD&D in the 1980's (right wing
books about how satanic it is and all). Now increase this about ten fold
since magic is more prevelent. Not a pretty picture is it.

SteveD
>
>***************
> Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
> aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
> aka The Human Tangent
>************
> Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
> Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
>skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
> Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
>forgetfullness. .
> Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
> Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:29:12 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/98 3:33:54 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU writes:

> I'd say a lot more didn't go along with it then that. I can't really see a
> Holly Roller sect of the Church of Christ embrasing magic any time soon.
> Of course with evangalistic sects it the racial makeup of the congregation
> probably has alot to do with it. Think of most peoples oppinions of magic
> in 205X to be akin to there opinions about AD&D in the 1980's (right wing
> books about how satanic it is and all). Now increase this about ten fold
> since magic is more prevelent. Not a pretty picture is it.

Actuallly I could see several major figureheads within the church either
gaining control of a magician early on or becoming magically manifestual
theirselves as time progressed. Secretly of course to begin with, but
definitely creating a direction for his ability.

Astral Perception could for example weed out anyone who didn't have "real
faith" during those Sunday, Daily, whenever, gatherings. Their "Aura"
wouldn't shine quite in sync with the rest of the congregation as much (as an
example).

Compulsion and/or Illusion magic would be incredibly powerful in the hands of
people like that also. Creating images and "Visions" that could be shared by
only a select few at a time, and hence, augmenting the devotion of some
individual or group of individuals into the belief of "that church group" is
particularly "blessed" as it were.

Hell, a simpler Mental Manipulation, based on Superficial Mentality, aligned
with vocal coordination, could easily be done to do nothing more than "hold
the direct attention of a group of people for a given time". Make the guy
self initiated, even Grade 0-1, and they could have "Sermon Giving" as a
Centering Skill and perhaps not even know it (the subconscioius development
theory in practice here).

In short, I think magic would have a SERIOUS position within the "Bible Belts"
of the world, wherever they are.

-K
Message no. 23
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:53:34 -0600
Stephen Delear wrote:
/
/ Um I don't have the NAN books. I just figured with the forced repatriation
/ of white "immigrants" as per the BBB and the fact that I remember hearing
/ somewhere the Salt Lake City had some form of religouse signifigance in the
/ mormon faith that they wouldn't be to happy to go. Moral of this story
/ FASA needs to put the NAN books, The Ter book and the Aztlan book all into
/ one big north america book/box set.

I hope they put out some "Target" books aimed at individual NAN
nations (Target: Souix Nation, for example). The NAN books are nice,
but I've never really used them. Their coverage of each nation is
enough to give you a basic idea, but doesn't really go into depth.

-David
--
"That which we do not know supports that which we know."
- Joseph Campbell
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 24
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:36:35 +0200
I think I really should find a solution for that Reply-To-Problem...
Messages for the list are piling up in my inbox.

Numer one:

=================¾GIN FORWARDED MESSAGE==================
>Received: from mailer.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.112.142] by in1.ibm.net id
893444936.97018-1 ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:08:56 +0000
>Received: from dirac (dirac.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.44]) by mailer.scri.fsu.edu
(8.8.7/8.7.5) with SMTP id PAA22230 for <arlehma@***.net>; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:08:55
-0400 (EDT)
>From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.fsu.edu>
>Received: by dirac (AIX 4.2/UCB 5.64) id AA38768; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:08:54 -0400
>Message-Id: <9804241908.AA38768@*****>
>Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
>To: arlehma@***.net
>Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:08:54 -0500 (EDT)
>In-Reply-To: <199804241901.TAA96644@****.ibm.net> from "Arno R.
Lehmann" at Apr 24, 98 08:06:16 pm
>X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>

>

> ON SR TOPIC
>
> How -International- is everyone's games out there?
>
> I hear lots about specific cities and the like, but does anyone really
> have a
> group that travels way more extensively than that. After Cyberpirates
> and R2
> came out, the group here basically decided they had been more
> "Mercenarial/Piratish" than runnerish from the sheer fact of their
> contact
> list (Phillipines, "Kingdoms Egyptian", Tir Na nOg, U/CAS, Aztlaner,
> Amazonian....hell, even the Nordic Lands...)
>
> But, as I've said before, our group here is -WAY- different than the
> norm of
> shadowrun.
>
I would consider my game only slightly international.
Most of the adventures have been either in Seattle, NAN, or
CFS. I've done alittle bit with the Tir, and a touch of London
(when the book first came out). Hmm...forgot about some of the
runs in Harliquin. Hmm..wait forgot a couple of runs in Aztlan.
Perhaps due to the lack of reference books (and laziness on my
part), I haven't expanded much beyond North America. Although
with Cyberpirates being introduced, I've been threatening
my players with several "boat trips" so we'll see.
(Oh these various runs, were spread out over several groups, and
many years).
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."


===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================

--
Arno Lehmann
arlehma@***.net http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Cabana/5274/
arno@*******.ast.uct.ac.za http://pinguin.ast.uct.ac.za
Message no. 25
From: Jacob Engstrom <sabredanz@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 09:45:38 EDT
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:12:38 -0400 John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM> writes:

> more touchy. IMO In Imago Dei would have the >following realms of
possibility 20's nope, 30's probably not, 40's maybe , 50's probably,60's
certainly.
>

May I suggest you do some serious looking into the MODERN orders of the
Jesuits and Dominicans. You might find some surprises.

J.T. Engstrom

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 26
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:17:07 +0100
And verily, did Erik Jameson hastily scribble thusly...
|Frag, by 205X, there will probably be over a billion Muslims in the world,
|without too much difficulty. It'll probably be the "number one" religion
|in the world, even with the strangeness and growth of cults following the
|Awakening.

I think you're using present day terms here too much...
Remember, over a quarter of the population died of in the early years of the
next century...

So they may have caught up with us by now, but have they overtaken us?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 27
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:44:44 +0100
And verily, did Ereskanti hastily scribble thusly...
|
|In a message dated 4/24/98 1:04:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
|writes:
|
|> Frag, by 205X, there will probably be over a billion Muslims in the world,
|> without too much difficulty. It'll probably be the "number one" religion
|> in the world, even with the strangeness and growth of cults following the
|> Awakening.
|
|Uh, pardon the interupt...I know that Muslim is a huge one...

A huge Muslim.... Where? <looks around intrigued>
Is it that fat bloke sitting in the corner?
:)

As has been mentioned, a Muslim is a person, Islam is the religion....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 28
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:14:12 -0500
>> Frag, by 205X, there will probably be over a billion Muslims in the
world,
>> without too much difficulty. It'll probably be the "number one"
religion
>> in the world, even with the strangeness and growth of cults
following the
>> Awakening.
>
>Uh, pardon the interupt...I know that Muslim is a huge one...I was
thinking of
>the Awakenings Impact upon the tribal and infra-continental culture
structure.
>I know how big that religion is...I was merely pointing out that the
more into
>the interior one gets, the less impactive it is going to be.
>


Just for a point of information, there was an article just the other day
that some Vatican research group estimated that there are not over 1
billion catholics in the world.

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 29
From: John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:50:59 -0400
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:12:38 -0400 John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM> writes:
>> more touchy. IMO In Imago Dei would have the >following realms of
>possibility 20's nope, 30's probably not, 40's maybe , 50's probably,60's
>certainly.
First of all what you qouted has nothing to do with the Franciscans or the
Jesuits. It has everything to do with when I thought the In Imago Dei papal
bull would have been issued.


>May I suggest you do some serious looking into the MODERN orders of the
>Jesuits and Dominicans. You might find some surprises.
Secondly, my current priests are Dominicans, I know a little bit about them
in the current Church. I also know alot more about the Jesuits and
Dominicans from History for it is what I studied in college and still study
today. The modern orders and the older orders are very different, but some
of the old prejudicies still exist. I do think a few Jesuits still see
themselves as the Militant arm of the Church and in a period where their is
a possible Crisis of Faith they may take it upon themselves to defend the
Church. Only a very strong Papacy can control all of the various Orders
within the Church, fortunately for us today there is a Strong Pope and he
does a good job of running the Church as he sees fit (I do not necessarily
agree with him on some points). If I dug into anyone of those Orders I'd
garuntee you I'll be suprised at what would be found.

Jester
Message no. 30
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:37:13 EDT
In a message dated 4/27/98 5:19:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

> |Frag, by 205X, there will probably be over a billion Muslims in the world,
> |without too much difficulty. It'll probably be the "number one" religion
> |in the world, even with the strangeness and growth of cults following the
> |Awakening.
>
> I think you're using present day terms here too much...
> Remember, over a quarter of the population died of in the early years of
the
> next century...
>
> So they may have caught up with us by now, but have they overtaken us?
>
There is one other thing here I wanted to throw in concerning "Muslims" and
the localities in other places of the world. Many, but NOT all, of those
places do not have the same degree of sanitary controls that so many other
"First World Nations" do. Something like Vitas would have been stunningly
devastating in those nations. Also, please remember that if population
density had anything to do with the spread of the Vitas Plagues...then those
places are FAR worse hit than North America... (No Offense Spike, England is
-HUGE- in a little way :)

-K
Message no. 31
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:39:27 EDT
In a message dated 4/27/98 5:46:07 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

> |Uh, pardon the interupt...I know that Muslim is a huge one...
>
> A huge Muslim.... Where? <looks around intrigued>
> Is it that fat bloke sitting in the corner?
> :)
>
> As has been mentioned, a Muslim is a person, Islam is the religion....
>
THWAP!!!!

I know that, I just can't keep them straight when I type....

-K
Message no. 32
From: Jacob Engstrom <sabredanz@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:28:31 EDT
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:50:59 -0400 John Vots <jvots@**.KO.COM> writes:
>>May I suggest you do some serious looking into the >>MODERN orders of
the Jesuits and Dominicans. You might >>find some surprises.

{SNIP}
>Only a very strong Papacy can control all of the various >Orders within
the Church, fortunately for us today there >is a Strong Pope and he does
a good job of running the >Church as he sees fit (I do not necessarily
agree with him on some points). If I dug into anyone of those Orders
>I'd garuntee you I'll be suprised at what would be >found.
>
>Jester
>

As a fellow practicing Catholic I highly recommend you dig. Keywords in
your search are "Academy", "The Codex", "Black (or Blank)
Shelves", and
"the Cathar Heresy".

Good luck,
J.T. Engstrom

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 33
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Into Africa I Go a Praying...
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:47:50 +0100
And verily, did Ereskanti hastily scribble thusly...
|There is one other thing here I wanted to throw in concerning "Muslims" and
|the localities in other places of the world. Many, but NOT all, of those
|places do not have the same degree of sanitary controls that so many other
|"First World Nations" do. Something like Vitas would have been stunningly
|devastating in those nations. Also, please remember that if population
|density had anything to do with the spread of the Vitas Plagues...then those
|places are FAR worse hit than North America... (No Offense Spike, England is
|-HUGE- in a little way :)

It's not really all that densely populated...
Most towns have a few hundred thousand.

Cities a few million.

We still have a lot of space between towns/cities, and there are a lot of
small villages out there....

I don't see Britain being hit by VITAS any more seriously than America.
(Percentagewise)

I know for a fact that if some nasty empidemic hit here, I'd be on the moors
before you could say "ACK! MY SKIN'S FALLING OFF"

:)
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|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
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|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

Further Reading

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!