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Message no. 1
From: Ralph and Ivy Ryan <sgmpaws@*******.COM>
Subject: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:13:06 -0500
Hi again,

While I am introducing myself I should mention that I GM mostly and I
haven't actually played since 95. But, I GM for players with 350 to 450
Karma Pools (Yes, Pools, not Good Karma) and I haven't had any problems in
challanging them so far. One Character has been played since 89 and
another is a transplanted AD&D Bard.

I am firmly convinced that SRII does the best replication of reality in
gaming. If I ever find a better one I might switch but I haven't seen
anything more accurate so far. I must also warn everyone that I am very
set in my opinions and require actual "proof" that something is better
before I will believe it.

As an example, I do understand the Spirit Combat section, including the
reasons for the differing treatment of the spirit's armor, and use it. I
also understand *why* it works that way, from the POV of legend and myth.

On the "Vamp as player char" front, I don't allow them, tried it once with
a player, it didn't work. She didn't want to suck essence, and the physics
of SR has them doing just that. So sad...

Were-folk as players? Can be done, but I have yet to find a player who can
get their head around the mind-set of an animal, even one that can change
to a human. I have thought of doing *that* differently too, but decided
not to. Hence, no were-PCs.

Oh, yes, I also understand english, so I understand the SRII karma/karma
pool award system, and the whys behind it, and that system is one of the
games best features from my POV. Every player will get at least 1 karma
pool point at the end of each finished adventure and at least one good
karma for the same thing. Karma Pool isn't luck, it's experience. The
ability to adapt your skill to the current conditions so to speak.

So, here I am...

Ivy K.
Message no. 2
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:31:54 -0500
Ralph and Ivy Ryan[SMTP:sgmpaws@*******.COM] wrote:
> While I am introducing myself I should mention that I GM mostly and I
> haven't actually played since 95. But, I GM for players with 350 to 450
> Karma Pools (Yes, Pools, not Good Karma) and I haven't had any problems in
> challanging them so far. One Character has been played since 89 and
> another is a transplanted AD&D Bard.

My God! 450 kp? Do they actually *use* it? That would let them
reroll all failures (on one skill roll) 29 times, after buying 15
extra dice. And you say you haven't had any problems challenging
them? I've never seen any other characters capable of killing
a dragon at extreme range with a pistol with a blind shot,
having S physical and S stun damage while sustaining spells to
boot! Ick!

> I am firmly convinced that SRII does the best replication of reality in
> gaming. If I ever find a better one I might switch but I haven't seen
> anything more accurate so far. I must also warn everyone that I am very
> set in my opinions and require actual "proof" that something is better
> before I will believe it.

Okay, but at 450 kp, the point of reality has long been surpassed.

> On the "Vamp as player char" front, I don't allow them, tried it once with
> a player, it didn't work. She didn't want to suck essence, and the physics
> of SR has them doing just that. So sad...

Huh? So the system is sad because the players don't like the
universe?

> Oh, yes, I also understand english, so I understand the SRII karma/karma
> pool award system, and the whys behind it, and that system is one of the
> games best features from my POV. Every player will get at least 1 karma
> pool point at the end of each finished adventure and at least one good
> karma for the same thing. Karma Pool isn't luck, it's experience. The
> ability to adapt your skill to the current conditions so to speak.

Whoa! Okay - this is how they got that kp. The problem is that
in the BBB there are two sentences dealing with kp - one says
to round in favour of kp, the other says to round in favour of
good karma. Our GM wanted to keep kp low, so we only get extra
kp if our entire award (for the session - we almost always get
3-4 karma for a 4-5 hour session) is 10 or more. We've managed
it once so far (we're not running any FASA stuff, btw).

450 kp. I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around that...

James Ojaste
Whose current character has 1 kp and proud of it :-)
Message no. 3
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:50:39 +0500
On 22 Dec 97 at 11:31, Ojaste,James [NCR] wrote:

> My God! 450 kp? Do they actually *use* it? That would let them
> reroll all failures (on one skill roll) 29 times, after buying 15
> extra dice. And you say you haven't had any problems challenging
> them? I've never seen any other characters capable of killing a
> dragon at extreme range with a pistol with a blind shot, having S
> physical and S stun damage while sustaining spells to boot! Ick!

Yes, Ivy, do tell. I heard of your god-like characters by reputation
when I first joined the list in early '95. Give some examples of how
you challenge these characters. Inquiring minds want to know!


> 450 kp. I'm having a tough time wrapping my head around that...

You and me both... And to think I thought the list was exaggerating!!

--
===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net====
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
=================================================================
It's not hard to meet expenses, they're everywhere.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Mike Loseke <mike@******.VERINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:10:31 -0700
Thus spake Ojaste,James [NCR]:
>
> Ralph and Ivy Ryan[SMTP:sgmpaws@*******.COM] wrote:
> > While I am introducing myself I should mention that I GM mostly and I
> > haven't actually played since 95. But, I GM for players with 350 to 450
> > Karma Pools (Yes, Pools, not Good Karma) and I haven't had any problems in
> > challanging them so far. One Character has been played since 89 and
> > another is a transplanted AD&D Bard.
>
> My God! 450 kp? Do they actually *use* it? That would let them
> reroll all failures (on one skill roll) 29 times, after buying 15
> extra dice. And you say you haven't had any problems challenging
> them? I've never seen any other characters capable of killing
> a dragon at extreme range with a pistol with a blind shot,
> having S physical and S stun damage while sustaining spells to
> boot! Ick!

If I remember correctly, Ivy expects her players to use karma on
*every* roll, no matter what, and to keep using it until they have as
many successes as they have dice to roll. It has something to do with
her interpretation of the cinematic feel that the system is geared around.

> > I am firmly convinced that SRII does the best replication of reality in
> > gaming. If I ever find a better one I might switch but I haven't seen
> > anything more accurate so far. I must also warn everyone that I am very
> > set in my opinions and require actual "proof" that something is better
> > before I will believe it.
>
> Okay, but at 450 kp, the point of reality has long been surpassed.

I wouldn't go there if I were you...

--
| Any resemblance between the above and my own
Mike Loseke | views is non-deterministic. The question of
mike@*******.com | the existence of views in the absence of anyone
| to hold them is left as an exercise to the reader.
Message no. 5
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:20:10 -0500
On Mon, Dec 22, 1997 at 11:10:31AM -0700, Mike Loseke wrote:
> Thus spake Ojaste,James [NCR]:
> >
> > Ralph and Ivy Ryan[SMTP:sgmpaws@*******.COM] wrote:
> > > While I am introducing myself I should mention that I GM mostly and I
> > > haven't actually played since 95. But, I GM for players with 350 to 450
> > > Karma Pools (Yes, Pools, not Good Karma) and I haven't had any problems in
> > > challanging them so far. One Character has been played since 89 and
> > > another is a transplanted AD&D Bard.
> >
> > My God! 450 kp? Do they actually *use* it? That would let them
> > reroll all failures (on one skill roll) 29 times, after buying 15
> > extra dice. And you say you haven't had any problems challenging
> > them? I've never seen any other characters capable of killing
> > a dragon at extreme range with a pistol with a blind shot,
> > having S physical and S stun damage while sustaining spells to
> > boot! Ick!
>
> If I remember correctly, Ivy expects her players to use karma on
> *every* roll, no matter what, and to keep using it until they have as
> many successes as they have dice to roll. It has something to do with
> her interpretation of the cinematic feel that the system is geared around.
>
> > > I am firmly convinced that SRII does the best replication of reality in
> > > gaming. If I ever find a better one I might switch but I haven't seen
> > > anything more accurate so far. I must also warn everyone that I am very
> > > set in my opinions and require actual "proof" that something is
better
> > > before I will believe it.
> >
> > Okay, but at 450 kp, the point of reality has long been surpassed.
>
> I wouldn't go there if I were you...
>

Why do I have a feeling this could get ugly.
Besides remember reality is a subjective term.
We've all played in low vs high power games.
Which is more realistic? Depends alot on your GM.
(After all to me a high ranking CIA spooks life would probably
seem unrealstic).
We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate. :)

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
Message no. 6
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:53:27 +0100
At 22-Dez-97 wrote Ralph and Ivy Ryan:



>I am firmly convinced that SRII does the best replication of reality in
>gaming. If I ever find a better one I might switch but I haven't seen
>anything more accurate so far. I must also warn everyone that I am very
>set in my opinions and require actual "proof" that something is better
>before I will believe it.

If you believe this realy, noone can help you.


>Were-folk as players? Can be done, but I have yet to find a player who can
>get their head around the mind-set of an animal, even one that can change
>to a human. I have thought of doing *that* differently too, but decided
>not to. Hence, no were-PCs.

hihihi

>Oh, yes, I also understand english, so I understand the SRII karma/karma
>pool award system, and the whys behind it, and that system is one of the
>games best features from my POV. Every player will get at least 1 karma
>pool point at the end of each finished adventure and at least one good
>karma for the same thing. Karma Pool isn't luck, it's experience. The
>ability to adapt your skill to the current conditions so to speak.

<shrug>

Your opinion is yours and yours alone....

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:03:36 +0100
At 22-Dez-97 wrote Mike Loseke:

> If I remember correctly, Ivy expects her players to use karma on
>*every* roll, no matter what, and to keep using it until they have as
>many successes as they have dice to roll. It has something to do with
>her interpretation of the cinematic feel that the system is geared around.

And why roll then at all? Tell the story and stop rolling.
Or say anything is fine here are your awards.


--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:00:27 +0100
At 22-Dez-97 wrote Ojaste,James [NCR]:


>My God! 450 kp? Do they actually *use* it? That would let them
>reroll all failures (on one skill roll) 29 times, after buying 15
>extra dice. And you say you haven't had any problems challenging
>them? I've never seen any other characters capable of killing
>a dragon at extreme range with a pistol with a blind shot,
>having S physical and S stun damage while sustaining spells to
>boot! Ick!

And? My char doesn`t need karmapool for such. :)
Karmapool isn`t everything...
Ever tried to shot ten targets in full auto :)



>Huh? So the system is sad because the players don't like the
>universe?

<shakes her head>


>Whoa! Okay - this is how they got that kp. The problem is that
>in the BBB there are two sentences dealing with kp - one says
>to round in favour of kp, the other says to round in favour of
>good karma.

And if you do rounding like SR anything below 10 karma goes nill :)


>James Ojaste
>Whose current character has 1 kp and proud of it :-)
Barbie has 52 kp realy earned :)

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 9
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:14:24 -0700
At 11:10 22/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
> If I remember correctly, Ivy expects her players to use karma on
>*every* roll, no matter what, and to keep using it until they have as
>many successes as they have dice to roll. It has something to do with
>her interpretation of the cinematic feel that the system is geared around.

In that case, just throw the fucking dice out the window and do it dice-less.

Sheesh.

-Adam J

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ AdamJ@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
The Shadowrun Archive Co-Maintainer: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun
Message no. 10
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:51:23 EST
In a message dated 97-12-22 11:15:25 EST, sgmpaws@*******.COM writes:

<snipped a bunch of personal opinions stuff>

> So, here I am...
> Ivy K.

Oh wow, someone out there that seems as heavily biased as I am...geesh, the
world must be coming to an end... ;)

-K
Message no. 11
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:31:01 -0500
On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:13:06 -0500 Ralph and Ivy Ryan
<sgmpaws@*******.COM> writes:
<<Hi again,>>


Hullo, hullo:)


<<While I am introducing myself I should mention that I GM mostly and I
haven't actually played since 95. But, I GM for players with 350 to 450
Karma Pools (Yes, Pools, not Good Karma) and I haven't had any problems
in challanging them so far. One Character has been played since 89 and
another is a transplanted AD&D Bard.>>


<picking jaw up off of floor>
Well, now I remember what the old-timers were talking about that brought
you up:)


<<I am firmly convinced that SRII does the best replication of reality in
gaming. If I ever find a better one I might switch but I haven't seen
anything more accurate so far. I must also warn everyone that I am very
set in my opinions and require actual "proof" that something is better
before I will believe it.>>


SR? Realistic? How do you figure?



<<On the "Vamp as player char" front, I don't allow them, tried it once
with a player, it didn't work. She didn't want to suck essence, and the
physics of SR has them doing just that. So sad...>>


What, she wanted a vampire without the Essence loss thing?


<<Were-folk as players? Can be done, but I have yet to find a player who
can get their head around the mind-set of an animal, even one that can
change to a human. I have thought of doing *that* differently too, but
decided not to. Hence, no were-PCs.>>


:P I guess I'm biased... Can't say I've had much luck with understanding
the critters myself, but I'd be willing to give someone the chance.


<<Oh, yes, I also understand english, so I understand the SRII
karma/karma pool award system, and the whys behind it, and that system is
one of the games best features from my POV. Every player will get at
least 1 karma pool point at the end of each finished adventure and at
least one good karma for the same thing. Karma Pool isn't luck, it's
experience. The ability to adapt your skill to the current conditions so
to speak.>>


That's definitely the first time I've heard *that* interpretation of the
Karma rules. I always said that the karma pool was equal to one-tenth the
total good karma earned, minus any points burned.


--
John Pederson Canthros, the shapeshifter-mage
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 12
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:30:12 -0600
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------12BD42B3B6C08B60F7B6344E
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Ralph and Ivy Ryan wrote:
> While I am introducing myself I should mention that I GM mostly and I
> haven't actually played since 95. But, I GM for players with 350 to 450
> Karma Pools (Yes, Pools, not Good Karma) and I haven't had any problems in
> challanging them so far. One Character has been played since 89 and
> another is a transplanted AD&D Bard.

Best advice I can give you is start a new campaign. If nothing else
the majority of the party should qualify for social security by now, and
personally I wouldn't see many johnsons willing to hire geriatric
shadowrunners.

> I am firmly convinced that SRII does the best replication of reality in
> gaming. If I ever find a better one I might switch but I haven't seen
> anything more accurate so far. I must also warn everyone that I am very
> set in my opinions and require actual "proof" that something is better
> before I will believe it.

I've never found a better balance of playability and realism. And I've
gone through more gaming systems than I would even care to admit too.


> On the "Vamp as player char" front, I don't allow them, tried it once with
> a player, it didn't work. She didn't want to suck essence, and the physics
> of SR has them doing just that. So sad...

If you want to play a vampire, invest in Vampire the Masquerade.. just
my opinion.

> Oh, yes, I also understand english, so I understand the SRII karma/karma
> pool award system, and the whys behind it, and that system is one of the
> games best features from my POV. Every player will get at least 1 karma
> pool point at the end of each finished adventure and at least one good
> karma for the same thing. Karma Pool isn't luck, it's experience. The
> ability to adapt your skill to the current conditions so to speak.

Egads.. no wonder you have such a problem. Ok, you should be awarding
good karma, not Karma pool points. The players have to spend 1 point of
good karma out of every 10 they earn to get a karma pool point, but they
must earn 10 karma points first. This keeps your karma pool to a
manageable level. A karma pool point is a very powerful advantage - and
not one that should be given so freely.

Digger
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--------------12BD42B3B6C08B60F7B6344E--
Message no. 13
From: Ralph and Ivy Ryan <sgmpaws@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:33:18 -0500
Hi Digger,

----------
> From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Intro part 2
> Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 10:30 PM
>
> Ralph and Ivy Ryan wrote:
> > While I am introducing myself I should mention that I GM mostly and I
> > haven't actually played since 95. But, I GM for players with 350 to
450
> > Karma Pools (Yes, Pools, not Good Karma) and I haven't had any problems
in
> > challanging them so far. One Character has been played since 89 and
> > another is a transplanted AD&D Bard.
>
> Best advice I can give you is start a new campaign. If nothing
else
> the majority of the party should qualify for social security by now, and
> personally I wouldn't see many johnsons willing to hire geriatric
> shadowrunners.
>

I see no reason to start a new campaign. The PCs have aged almost ten
years in the last 8 real years so theres no problem.

> > I am firmly convinced that SRII does the best replication of reality in
> > gaming. If I ever find a better one I might switch but I haven't seen
> > anything more accurate so far. I must also warn everyone that I am
very
> > set in my opinions and require actual "proof" that something is better
> > before I will believe it.
>
> I've never found a better balance of playability and realism.
And I've
> gone through more gaming systems than I would even care to admit too.
>
>
> > On the "Vamp as player char" front, I don't allow them, tried it once
with
> > a player, it didn't work. She didn't want to suck essence, and the
physics
> > of SR has them doing just that. So sad...
>
> If you want to play a vampire, invest in Vampire the Masquerade..
just
> my opinion.

Both the player in question and I had VtM. I wanted to play SRII and she
only played vampires given a choice. She isn't part of my game anymore.

>
> > Oh, yes, I also understand english, so I understand the SRII
karma/karma
> > pool award system, and the whys behind it, and that system is one of
the
> > games best features from my POV. Every player will get at least 1
karma
> > pool point at the end of each finished adventure and at least one good
> > karma for the same thing. Karma Pool isn't luck, it's experience. The
> > ability to adapt your skill to the current conditions so to speak.
>
> Egads.. no wonder you have such a problem. Ok, you should be
awarding
> good karma, not Karma pool points. The players have to spend 1 point of
> good karma out of every 10 they earn to get a karma pool point, but they
> must earn 10 karma points first. This keeps your karma pool to a
> manageable level. A karma pool point is a very powerful advantage - and
> not one that should be given so freely.

Digger, I would suggest that you re-read the rule book. Specificaly page
190, para 5 under KARMA and page 191, para 5 under KARMA POOL. I do read
english and I have talked to both Paul Hume and Tom Dowd about the way they
meant the Karma/Karma Pool thing to work. They both confirmed that those
paragraphs really did mean what they said. The Karma Pool is a measure of
experience, showing a PC's ability to adapt under stress so as to succeed
at a task. The Karma Pool is not a measure of luck, luck is measured by
the dice roll (s).

Ivy K.

>
>
Digger
Message no. 14
From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:56:32 -0600
Ralph and Ivy Ryan wrote:
>

> Digger, I would suggest that you re-read the rule book. Specificaly page
> 190, para 5 under KARMA and page 191, para 5 under KARMA POOL. I do read
> english and I have talked to both Paul Hume and Tom Dowd about the way they
> meant the Karma/Karma Pool thing to work. They both confirmed that those
> paragraphs really did mean what they said. The Karma Pool is a measure of
> experience, showing a PC's ability to adapt under stress so as to succeed
> at a task. The Karma Pool is not a measure of luck, luck is measured by
> the dice roll (s).

Hmm.. you mean the paragraph in which the first sentence clearly states
" One tenth (round up) of all Karma earned goes into the character's
Karma pool ". Sounds pretty cut and dried to me. In fact, it sounds
exactly like what I told you earlier. That the character only gets 1
karma pool point out of every 10 good karma points. Of course, if you
prefer characters that can reroll dice almost constantly by all means
change this guideline, but understand that you are changing it. I see
no reason for such a venomous response. If you like to play a more,
shall we say, generous campaign do so. As long as you enjoy it I can't
see any problem with that. Of course, I would appreciate it if you
would lower the tone of your responses just a bit. Obviously I've
struck a nerve somewhere, and for that I do apologize. I know what a
karma pool is used for and what it represents. I also know that
allowing my characters 450 rerolls per adventure means I'd better start
planning adventures that are at least a year in length to make the
sufficently challenging.

Digger
Message no. 15
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:02:29 -0500
Barbie[SMTP:barbie@**********.COM] wrote:
> At 22-Dez-97 wrote Ojaste,James [NCR]:
> >I've never seen any other characters capable of killing
> >a dragon at extreme range with a pistol with a blind shot,
> >having S physical and S stun damage while sustaining spells to
> >boot! Ick!
>
> And? My char doesn`t need karmapool for such. :)
> Karmapool isn`t everything...
> Ever tried to shot ten targets in full auto :)

Gack!? +18 minimum (yes, I know that cyber can reduce these quite
a bit), the dragon only has to resist 2L and will have a couple
of dozen dice at the least... Would you mind clarifying?

> >Whoa! Okay - this is how they got that kp. The problem is that
> >in the BBB there are two sentences dealing with kp - one says
> >to round in favour of kp, the other says to round in favour of
> >good karma.
>
> And if you do rounding like SR anything below 10 karma goes nill :)

Well, our group uses truncation instead of rounding, and that's
the effect we get because we want to keep kp abuse down.

> >Whose current character has 1 kp and proud of it :-)
> Barbie has 52 kp realy earned :)

I once had a character up to 3 kp! I think it was 3... Maybe
just 2. I'd have to check. Man it can be tough getting 10 karma
in a single award.

James Ojaste
Message no. 16
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:00:46 -0500
On Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:33:18 -0500 Ivy K <sgmpaws@*******.COM> writes:

<<Digger, I would suggest that you re-read the rule book. Specificaly
page 190, para 5 under KARMA and page 191, para 5 under KARMA POOL.>>


Those two paragraphs are contradictory; they say conflicting thins.


<<I do read english and I have talked to both Paul Hume and Tom Dowd
about the way they meant the Karma/Karma Pool thing to work. They both
confirmed that those paragraphs really did mean what they said.>>


Ah... and just what did they say, exactly? That the paragraphs meant
'what they said' or that your interpretation thereof was correct? There's
a minor difference of wording there.


<<The Karma Pool is a measure of experience, showing a PC's ability to
adapt under stress so as to succeed at a task. The Karma Pool is not a
measure of luck, luck is measured by the dice roll (s).>>


So, it should never ever go down, unless they go long periods without
using it, right? Can't burn experience, after all. IMHO, the Karma Pool
has no obvious real-life analog; or at least, it doesn't have one that
can be easily agreed-upon.


At 23:36 22/12/97 -0500, Ivy K also wrote:
>Hey everybody,
>Instead of cheating your players why not try something new? Try playing
by
>the actual rules in the SRII rule book? Just a thought here...


You don't pull any punches, do you, Ivy? Many of us believe that we *are*
playing by 'the actual rules in the SRII rule book'. I have, when GMing,
instituted some minor house rules covering the distribution of Karma and
Karma Pool, but only ones which, IMO, clarified what was already listed
in the book. I never did anything which I though significantly changed
that particular subset of the rules system.

I don't think my players considered me to be 'unfair,' either. With the
possible exception be in the application of house restrictions on
starting characters (which were, in my mind, warranted).

--
John Pederson Canthros, the shapeshifter-mage
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 17
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:56:53 EST
In a message dated 97-12-23 13:09:51 EST, James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA writes:

> > >Whose current character has 1 kp and proud of it :-)
> > Barbie has 52 kp realy earned :)

Oh geesh, that would make her more than Binder...going to have to fix that...
(grin)

> I once had a character up to 3 kp! I think it was 3... Maybe
> just 2. I'd have to check. Man it can be tough getting 10 karma
> in a single award.
> James Ojaste

Oh James, you shouldn't have mentioned that...now you're going to flamed
too...but it's okay, we've got LOTS of water...it comes from storing all the
Carp...

-K
Message no. 18
From: Kevin R Mohondro <mohkev@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:57:00 -0800
> From: Ojaste,James [NCR] <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Intro part 2
> Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 10:02 AM

<SNIP>

> > >Whoa! Okay - this is how they got that kp. The problem is that
> > >in the BBB there are two sentences dealing with kp - one says
> > >to round in favour of kp, the other says to round in favour of
> > >good karma.
> >
> > And if you do rounding like SR anything below 10 karma goes nill :)
>
> Well, our group uses truncation instead of rounding, and that's
> the effect we get because we want to keep kp abuse down.
>
> > >Whose current character has 1 kp and proud of it :-)
> > Barbie has 52 kp realy earned :)
>
> I once had a character up to 3 kp! I think it was 3... Maybe
> just 2. I'd have to check. Man it can be tough getting 10 karma
> in a single award.

What I do, is I have the players keep 10% of the karma awards to go into
the Karma Pool. So, if they get 6 karma for a run the karma pool goes up
by 0.6. However, they can't use that 0.6 until it's a full point. I've got
one character who's got 4.9 Karma Pool. Now and again he I can here him
mumbling "just one more Karma and I could get a reroll!" It lets the
characters Pools advance a bit quicker, but, at least they advance.

> James Ojaste

--
-Moe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin R Mohondro mohkev@******.com
Software Engineer
SalePoint/Retail Interact (619) 552-2026
Message no. 19
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro part 2
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 23:42:04 +0100
At 23-Dez-97 wrote Ojaste,James [NCR]:



>Gack!? +18 minimum (yes, I know that cyber can reduce these quite
>a bit), the dragon only has to resist 2L and will have a couple
>of dozen dice at the least... Would you mind clarifying?

Some spells, cyber lots of dices(up to 51 per shoot) :)

Yeah, Barbie is a munchy char, but I don`t play her normaly outside our
group.

BTW: the ten-ten example was not from her, it was our Decker :)

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------

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