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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Invisible hermetic circles
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 12:36:17 +0100
> From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.ntu.edu.au>

> > Could you draw a ritual circle with just your finger on a clean concrete
> > floor? I mean, you won't see anything that looks like a circle but you
>> Could you draw a ritual circle with just your finger on a clean concrete
>> floor? I mean, you won't see anything that looks like a circle but you
>> have gone through the motions to draw one...
>
>I'd say yeah, but who says the elemental would think there was a circle
>there? :)

A hermetic circle also exists in astral space as long as it's in use,
right? So I would think an elemental would know it is there...

> Of course, sustain a "Flame Hand" spell (a neat one I just thought off),
> and you'd at least leave a trail of soot behind. Or you could dip your
> finger in soysauce now and then...

In that way you're still making a visible circle, and I was asking about
whether it would be possible to _not_ draw a visible circle but still have
one.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be that it's only superficiality?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
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Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Invisible hermetic circles
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 21:32:57 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> In that way you're still making a visible circle, and I was asking about
> whether it would be possible to _not_ draw a visible circle but still have
> one.

Use invisible ink! (Better not make it a fire elemental, though. Oops, most
invis inks are soluble. Hmm... Water elementals are out. And the incense
needed to get Air elementals might make it fade in, as well. Still, you can
summon Earth elementals, at least. :) )

On a more theoretical basis: if you can't see the stupid circle, how do you
know you've drawn it right? On the astral plane you can't really examine
the details. Add a lot to the TN of the test. For that matter, introduce a
test. I vote for a Magical Theory test, TN = DIAMETER of the circle (which
is 3 meters plus the force of the circle).

On a REALLY serious basis: a circle is a link back to you. Now, if you use
a real material, you can disperse it, breaking the link. If you only think
it into existance, how do you dispell it? Is it like sustaining a spell? Or
does the construct gain an astral life of it's own, and have to be
destroyed (treat as a Barrier to destroy it, perhaps?)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 3
From: Luis Navarro <lnavarro@*******.COM.MX>
Subject: Re: Invisible hermetic circles
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 02:36:54 CST
>Gurth wrote:
>>
>> In that way you're still making a visible circle, and I was asking about
>> whether it would be possible to _not_ draw a visible circle but still=
have
>> one.
>
and Robert Watkins wrote:
>Use invisible ink! (Better not make it a fire elemental, though. Oops, most
>invis inks are soluble. Hmm... Water elementals are out. And the incense
>needed to get Air elementals might make it fade in, as well. Still, you can
>summon Earth elementals, at least. :) )
.....Ja

>On a more theoretical basis: if you can't see the stupid circle, how do you
>know you've drawn it right? On the astral plane you can't really examine
>the details. Add a lot to the TN of the test. For that matter, introduce a
>test. I vote for a Magical Theory test, TN = DIAMETER of the circle=
(which
>is 3 meters plus the force of the circle).

.....???????????
>
>On a REALLY serious basis: a circle is a link back to you. Now, if you use
>a real material, you can disperse it, breaking the link. If you only think
>it into existance, how do you dispell it? Is it like sustaining a spell? Or
>does the construct gain an astral life of it's own, and have to be
>destroyed (treat as a Barrier to destroy it, perhaps?)
>
.....Look guys, firstable, "INTENTION" is the the first rule in magicK (whit=

"K")
,you dont have to draw a circle, just imagen it is there, it doesnt have to=
be
even round,and this circle doesnt exist only in the astral, but in all
planes...Of course is not a link back to you, but works like a protection...
when you are in the circle, you put limits on the space, and if you like you
can work whit Elements, it is better if you ask first for help to the=
Archangels
(Michael...east,Adonai...North...Uriel...west...Gabriel..south)and try to=
work
whit the Elemental Kings, if you prefer, one at a time....
Most of the students in Alt Magick, knows that the Mage, doesnt have to work
on a real temple, we already have one on an upper plane......
..Every thing you´ve created, gains life of its own, and you are=
responsable
of that life, how many times have you say something realy bad to a person?
and you mean it, whit all the intention, here, you are creating a form of=
life
that (belive it or not) will afect to the other people, and in an inderect=
form
also to you.....this kind of life is easy to destroy...here is a good trick,
just draw the thing you have created, make the Banishing Ritual, and then if=
you
like, burn the paper, and think whit all your will, that the thing is=
gonne...
............................................................................=
.
Luis Navarro L.V.X * MagicK, is all Intention, is the art to change
lnavarro@*******.com.mx * at will
Message no. 4
From: The Kumquat <LAYBROWNJT@***.CUIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Invisible Hermetic Circles
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 04:56:47 -0500
Ok, I've said this before, I'm saying it now... READ THE FAQ!
Discussions pertaining to the existance/application of Real-World Magic(k)
(denoted by the infamous "k") are a NO-NO. Despite their marginal relavence,
they are, by nature, too closely involved with personal, spiritual beliefs to
avoid stepping on toes, and making people unhappy. Due to the diversity
inherent to the list, there are TOLMWAPPERs (listmembers) with different
spiritual beliefs, and as magick is a spiritual topic, arguments can start when
the equivalent of a major religious argument starts on the list, wasting
bandwidth. I have seen (and participated in) several such flamewars in the last
year, and for these reasons, despite their significance to SR, these threads
are prohibited. This rule was put in the FAQ we all got upon joining the list,
and I, for one, would appreciate it if that rule were observed.

Just My Two Pence.
The Kumquat.

Support Whirled Peas.
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Invisible hermetic circles
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 11:49:21 +0100
> From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>

> Use invisible ink!

I thought of that too but didn't say it because they you're _still_ using
something to draw a physical circle with -- you can still detect invisible
ink in some or another way...

> On a more theoretical basis: if you can't see the stupid circle, how do you
> know you've drawn it right?

That's the trick, isn't it? :) Maybe it's like that Japanese bow-shooting
someone mentioned som time ago -- if you go through the right mtions you
do it right no matter what (or at least you think you do :)

> On a REALLY serious basis: a circle is a link back to you. Now, if you use
> a real material, you can disperse it, breaking the link. If you only think
> it into existance, how do you dispell it?

Is that so hard? Since you're symbolically drawing the circle, you can
also symbolically break it: cut the line with your foot, for instance.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be that it's only superficiality?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Invisible hermetic circles
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 00:22:30 +0930
Luis Navarro wrote:
> .....Look guys, firstable, "INTENTION" is the the first rule in magicK
> ,you dont have to draw a circle, just imagen it is there, it doesnt have to
> be
> even round,and this circle doesnt exist only in the astral, but in all
> planes...

No... it exists in the physical, for certain. It also exists in the astral
when it is active, and ONLY when it is active. It damn well doesn't exist
in the meta planes.

>Of course is not a link back to you, but works like a protection...

No, it's a link back to you, if someone gets hold of it physically.

> when you are in the circle, you put limits on the space, and if you like you
> can work whit Elements, it is better if you ask first for help to the=
> Archangels
> (Michael...east,Adonai...North...Uriel...west...Gabriel..south)and try to=
> work
> whit the Elemental Kings, if you prefer, one at a time....
> Most of the students in Alt Magick, knows that the Mage, doesnt have to work
> on a real temple, we already have one on an upper plane......

Asking the Archangels to help you with a pagan (Celtic) ritual? *sigh*
sometimes I wonder about neopaganism... And it's got no relevance ot the SR
rules.

> ..Every thing you've created, gains life of its own, and you are
> responsable
> of that life, how many times have you say something realy bad to a person?
> and you mean it, whit all the intention, here, you are creating a form of
> life
> that (belive it or not) will afect to the other people, and in an inderect
> form
> also to you.....this kind of life is easy to destroy...here is a good trick,
> just draw the thing you have created, make the Banishing Ritual, and then i
> you
> like, burn the paper, and think whit all your will, that the thing is
> gonne...

No... Celtic belief (and it's the Celtic philosophy of Magic you're talking
about here) says that any mental construct used in the working of magic
will gain an astral life of it's own. A simple ritual of banishing may
weaken it, but will eventually not suffice to destroy it.

And it's still got no relevance to SR, which has it's own rules.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 7
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Invisible hermetic circles
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:59:41 +0100
Gurth said:
> In that way you're still making a visible circle, and I was asking about
> whether it would be possible to _not_ draw a visible circle but still have
> one.

I think the answer is obvious, of course you can. Phyically drawing it
however must make it easier for the magician to focus.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."

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