Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: James Dening james@************.force9.co.uk
Subject: Ironic...
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:27:58 -0000
Interesting that this...

>>Easy opn the laughs chummerino. We seem to have been rolepleying for an
>>almost equal amount of time and you wouldn't want to meet 'Wiz' as a
>>character. (Well actually you would, since he 's relaxed on his world
>>views these days)

..should be posted immediately after Simon rather sagely pointed out...

>>It said that the game is generally played by insignificant nerds
>>who are picked on a lot and have trouble being accepted by society (I
>>preferred it when they thought that all role players were devil worshippers
>>and to be feared :)) and they always had characters who were enormous Conan
>>types that had sex constantly and killed anyone who looked the wrong way at
>>them.

>>you 'll have to play a lot of sessions yet to call me a newbie...

<grin>

"Newbie...."

Anyway, back to the point....I was trying to analyse why I play the characters I do....and
it was kinda tough. I've been playing for...ooh....damn...twenty years? No! Surely
not!...Arse....
Anyway, a looong time, and in that time, I've RPG most genres - swords&sorcery, sf,
comedy,
contemporary, LARP (which I think gives rise to the *best* roleplaying - there's nothing
like
running away from twenty people to induce *proper* cowardice! ;-) ), mixture, horror,
cyberpunk, CarWars ;-) - the lot...except Vampire based PRGs ,for no good reason...

And, he said, rambling to the point, I've played pretty much every stereotype of character
that's going. And, these days, my favourites are the ones that interest me - no surprise
there.
The problem is, that I'm finding it harder and harder to generate a character for my
character ;-)
that's new - TBH, it can't really be done - I've played too many, from irritating Paladins
"Hey, you! Stop sneaking up on that Balrog, stand and fight it like a man!" to
Nihilist
Battle Priests! "Yeah, like you think it'll make a difference.....man...."

The easiest ones to play have always been reflections of myself - I had a red wizard
called
Inferno once, that, using Labyrinthe rules (Yes, he was Blatantly Copied from Wayne's
Inferno), who was Hard As Fsck. Loved him - played him every 2 weeks for 3 years and
he was basically me, without the morals, to start with, but in the end, was like a
wellworn
glove - 'cos I wouldn't be sitting round a table, I'd be running around a wood, for 8
hours,
solid, in character.

Then, there are others - Pierre, the outRAAAAGEously french mage in Doc's cyberpirates
campaign - nothing like me (apart from the wine thing) - but still incredibly good fun to
play.

But, he's a definite amalgam of lots of other characters I've played before. Which leads
me to my
main (thrusting) point...

I am firmly of the opinion that there are only so many basic character-types suitable for
s-run, and
pretty much all other characters are descended from them. It's like jokes - there are only
seven
basic jokes - all others are a variant. No kidding. And, I reckon all of these characters
are enshrined
in current literature...call them meta-archetypes if you will...

For example:

Ex-professional killer/nasty type, with heart of gold: Waylander (D. Gemmell books), Leon
(or, 'The Professional'
in the US), Avon (Blake's 7) etc.

Small time hustler, with moral core (Han Solo, Sid (Hill Street Blues -played by Peter
Jurasik, who went on to
play Londo Mollari),

Prim and Proper type cast into gritty reality (The Doctor from ST:Voyager, Princess Leia)

Idealistic Kid with Supernatural Legacy (Luke Skywalker, Belgarath, Hobbits, most of
Krondor's population)

Disgraced/Retired Hero, wise, but generally unhelpful until he gets smegged in fight with
main
baddy in second reel (Obi-wan, the Druid Allanon, Gandalf)

Fantastic fighter, who sacrifices himself against impossible odds (Any Klingon, that
Weapons Master from
the first Shannara books, Molly from Gibson, Mandorallen

Physically strong, loyal, mundane follower, near fatal wound in final scene - Durnik,
Chewbacca

And many, many more...

Actually Star Wars was a success partly IMO because it contained so many of these
stereotypes.... Any got any
good ones that I've missed?

Now, the thing is - does this apply to ShadowRun? I'm not sure that it does so much, it's
such a game of antiheroes...
Or maybe the list of meta-archetypes is different?

James.
Message no. 2
From: Wildfire@*************.com Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: Ironic...
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:51:31 GMT
On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:27:58 -0000 shadowrn@*********.com wrote:

(had to get out the tree trimmers to snip this one up)
>
>
> I am firmly of the opinion that there are only so many basic
> character-types suitable for s-run, and pretty much all other characters
> are descended from them. It's like jokes - there are only seven basic jokes
> - all others are a variant. No kidding. And, I reckon all of these
> characters are enshrined in current literature...call them meta-archetypes
> if you will... For example:
>
(You should have already read the examples)
>
> Actually Star Wars was a success partly IMO because it contained so many of
> these stereotypes.... Any got any good ones that I've missed?
>
> Now, the thing is - does this apply to ShadowRun? I'm not sure that it does
> so much, it's such a game of antiheroes... Or maybe the list of
> meta-archetypes is different?
>
> James.

Okay, yes I think it applies very much to shadowrun. Yes, shadowrun tends to go towards
the anti-hero a bit, but most of my characters are so far off the anti-hero mark, and I
still love playing the game. Sometimes its fun to play the Justifyed Existance type (see
below) in a world full of anti-heros. It forces others to really role-play when there is
such a total polarization of goals and views.

A few that I tend to play across a lot of RPGs:

Justifyed Existance - moral character who thinks what they're doing is wrong, but believes
theres no other way

Tactless Optimist - (basically me in an RPG) think Lina Inverse, Tasslehoff. Things will
work out in the end, no matter how messy and wrong stuff goes down in the middle.

The Lone Gunman - Social introvert, believes can only rely on themself, usually has one
objective (revenge, be the best, find a particular object)

Problem is that I try so hard to get out of the archtype, its getting difficult to make
distinct characters. Sometimes they just come to me, and sometimes it like pulling teeth.
I have two characters on the DR forums, one I made up on the fly for a little in
character discussion, and one I planned to make for a campaign. The bit charcter's one of
the best ones I've done in a long time, and the planned one is still numbers in my head.

Somewhat related questions, how exactly do people go about making characters? Stats ->
background -> name? archtype -> name -> stats? And how did your favorite
character's personality get formed? By runs, or settled when you started, or both?

Wildfire (sometimes with a DC)
Terminally Behind SOTA
Message no. 3
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Ironic...
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 13:27:48 -0500
James Dening wrote:

> <SNIP>

> I am firmly of the opinion that there are only so many basic character-types suitable
for s-run, and
> pretty much all other characters are descended from them. It's like jokes - there are
only seven
> basic jokes - all others are a variant. No kidding. And, I reckon all of these
characters are enshrined
> in current literature...call them meta-archetypes if you will...
>
> For example:
>
> Ex-professional killer/nasty type, with heart of gold: Waylander (D. Gemmell books),
Leon (or, 'The Professional'
> in the US), Avon (Blake's 7) etc.
>

I think this one would stay. The ex-military officer who for some reason or another is now
running the shadows.

>
> Small time hustler, with moral core (Han Solo, Sid (Hill Street Blues -played by
Peter Jurasik, who went on to
> play Londo Mollari),

> Prim and Proper type cast into gritty reality (The Doctor from ST:Voyager, Princess
Leia)
>
> Idealistic Kid with Supernatural Legacy (Luke Skywalker, Belgarath, Hobbits, most of
Krondor's population)
>
> Disgraced/Retired Hero, wise, but generally unhelpful until he gets smegged in fight
with main
> baddy in second reel (Obi-wan, the Druid Allanon, Gandalf)
>
> Fantastic fighter, who sacrifices himself against impossible odds (Any Klingon, that
Weapons Master from
> the first Shannara books, Molly from Gibson, Mandorallen
>
> Physically strong, loyal, mundane follower, near fatal wound in final scene - Durnik,
Chewbacca
>
> And many, many more...
>
> Actually Star Wars was a success partly IMO because it contained so many of these
stereotypes.... Any got any
> good ones that I've missed?

>
> Now, the thing is - does this apply to ShadowRun? I'm not sure that it does so much,
it's such a game of antiheroes...
> Or maybe the list of meta-archetypes is different?
>

I'd say different. But I really don't know because I've really only developed 5 characters
with a fully-fledged backstory.
I've designed and templated about 50, mainly to see how it's done, but since I don't get
to play (and when I do we
immediately change characters next time), it's a waste of my time to come up with a story.
However, one thing I will say, my characters always are witty and sarcastic, to a fault.
In our AD&D campaign, I'm playing
a mage with quite the attitude. He was getting punched in the face, and all he would say
is "Is that how hard you can
hit?" and "I didn't feel a thing. Why don't you try again wimpie." And so
on and so forth. I got knocked unconcious by
those f&cks six times because of that. But that's just the way I am.

>
> James.

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed -
they produced Michelangelo,
Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The cuckoo
clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 4
From: Dave Mowbray dave_mowbray@*****.com
Subject: Ironic...
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:30:55 -0500
Many people wrote: comments inserted
<SNIP>
>
> > I am firmly of the opinion that there are only so many
> basic character-types suitable for s-run, and
> > pretty much all other characters are descended from them.
> It's like jokes - there are only seven
> > basic jokes - all others are a variant. No kidding. And, I
> reckon all of these characters are enshrined
> > in current literature...call them meta-archetypes if you will...
> >
> > For example:
> >
> > Ex-professional killer/nasty type, with heart of gold:
> Waylander (D. Gemmell books), Leon (or, 'The Professional'
> > in the US), Avon (Blake's 7) etc.
>
>
> I think this one would stay. The ex-military officer who for
> some reason or another is now running the shadows.
>
> >
> > Small time hustler, with moral core (Han Solo, Sid (Hill
> Street Blues -played by Peter Jurasik, who went on to
> > play Londo Mollari),

Han Solo was not a hustler, he was a smuggler: he would probably shoot you
for calling him a hustler.

>
> > Prim and Proper type cast into gritty reality (The Doctor
> from ST:Voyager, Princess Leia)
> >
> > Idealistic Kid with Supernatural Legacy (Luke Skywalker,
> Belgarath, Hobbits, most of Krondor's population)

Ummm... Belgarath did not have a supernatural legacy (i.e. no one in his
past was magical). He was taught the Will and the Word by the God Aldur.

> >
> > Disgraced/Retired Hero, wise, but generally unhelpful until
> he gets smegged in fight with main
> > baddy in second reel (Obi-wan, the Druid Allanon, Gandalf)

I would hardly call the Druid Allanon unhelpful...

> >
> > Fantastic fighter, who sacrifices himself against
> impossible odds (Any Klingon, that Weapons Master from
> > the first Shannara books, Molly from Gibson, Mandorallen
> >
> > Physically strong, loyal, mundane follower, near fatal
> wound in final scene - Durnik, Chewbacca

When does Chewie ever get hurt?

> >
> > And many, many more...
> >
> > Actually Star Wars was a success partly IMO because it
> contained so many of these stereotypes.... Any got any
> > good ones that I've missed?

Actually, yes... I think you're ignoring the cold-blooded killer a la Mel
Gibon in payback, who cares for nothing except the money. Another good
example of the cold-blooded killer is Gary Oldman (as Zorg) in the 5th
Element.

> > Now, the thing is - does this apply to ShadowRun? I'm not
> sure that it does so much, it's such a game of antiheroes...
> > Or maybe the list of meta-archetypes is different?
> >
>
> However, one thing I will say, my characters always are witty
> and sarcastic, to a fault. In our AD&D campaign, I'm playing
> a mage with quite the attitude. He was getting punched in the
> face, and all he would say is "Is that how hard you can
> hit?" and "I didn't feel a thing. Why don't you try again
> wimpie." And so on and so forth. I got knocked unconcious by
> those f&cks six times because of that. But that's just the way I am.

I recall... I was actually quite impressed with the role-playing in the face
of immenent character death...
>
> >
> > James.
> --Strago
I think that's all...
-Dave
Message no. 5
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Ironic...
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:48:00 -0500
Dave Mowbray wrote:

> Many people wrote: comments inserted
> <SNIP>

> > > Small time hustler, with moral core (Han Solo, Sid (Hill
> > Street Blues -played by Peter Jurasik, who went on to
> > > play Londo Mollari),
>
> Han Solo was not a hustler, he was a smuggler: he would probably shoot you
> for calling him a hustler.
>

But he was someone with a criminal occupation, and I think that's the type he
was talking about.

> <SNIP>

> > > Disgraced/Retired Hero, wise, but generally unhelpful until
> > he gets smegged in fight with main
> > > baddy in second reel (Obi-wan, the Druid Allanon, Gandalf)
>
> I would hardly call the Druid Allanon unhelpful...
>

Oh come on now, all he did was say "you have to do this." He didn't give any
reasons until he got "smegged" (as the post colorfully put it.) Then he actually
did something. (But he still made everyone think for themselves.) Actually, this
is kinda a motif in fantasy. L.E. Modesitt, JR. really brings this out, but
that's off the subject...

> >
> > Fantastic fighter, who sacrifices himself against
> > impossible odds (Any Klingon, that Weapons Master from
> > the first Shannara books, Molly from Gibson, Mandorallen
>
> > Physically strong, loyal, mundane follower, near fatal
> > wound in final scene - Durnik, Chewbacca
>
> When does Chewie ever get hurt?
>

That, I don't remember either.

> >
> > And many, many more...
> >
> > Actually Star Wars was a success partly IMO because it
> > contained so many of these stereotypes.... Any got any
> > good ones that I've missed?
>
> Actually, yes... I think you're ignoring the cold-blooded killer a la Mel
> Gibon in payback, who cares for nothing except the money. Another good
> example of the cold-blooded killer is Gary Oldman (as Zorg) in the 5th
> Element.

> Now, the thing is - does this apply to ShadowRun? I'm not
> sure that it does so much, it's such a game of antiheroes...
> Or maybe the list of meta-archetypes is different?
>
>
> However, one thing I will say, my characters always are witty
> and sarcastic, to a fault. In our AD&D campaign, I'm playing
> a mage with quite the attitude. He was getting punched in the
> face, and all he would say is "Is that how hard you can
> hit?" and "I didn't feel a thing. Why don't you try again
> wimpie." And so on and so forth. I got knocked unconcious by
> those fucks six times because of that. But that's just the way I am.
>
> I recall... I was actually quite impressed with the role-playing in the face
> of immenent character death...
>

It couldn't have been that close, could it? I didn't have a condition monitor.
All the information you gave me was "that hurt quite a bit" and "you fall
unconcious" and "you hurt all over". Not as effective as "you lose 5
HP" or "you
have 1 HP left". But anyway, thanks.
<SNIP>
--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance.
In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 6
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Ironic...
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 09:55:00 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: James Dening <james@************.force9.co.uk>
To: 'Shadowrn' <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 1:35 AM
Subject: Ironic...



>I am firmly of the opinion that there are only so many basic
character-types suitable for s-run, and
>pretty much all other characters are descended from them. It's like jokes -
there are only seven
>basic jokes - all others are a variant. No kidding. And, I reckon all of
these characters are enshrined
>in current literature...call them meta-archetypes if you will...
>
This is the problem that I have with multiple personality cases where the
person has 50+ personalities. There just aren't that many to have. Its
embarrasing when I make up a new character, play him a while and think how
he's a refreshing new personality, then I go to pull out an older favorite
and realise they are the same person with different stats. Its happenned a
couple of times, so I tend to just keep the same characters for years after
they prove themselves to be different. Then there are those who have a Drow
elf princess every game system, or a gypsy troublemaker who's only in it for
himself, or the most common, Mr Cardboard, who's personality only goes as
far as not taking any shit and liking guns.
Message no. 7
From: James Dening james@************.force9.co.uk
Subject: Ironic...
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:47:46 -0000
>>Somewhat related questions, how exactly do people go about making
characters? Stats -> background -> name? archtype -> name -> stats?
>>And
how did your favorite character's personality get formed? By runs, or
settled when you started, or both?

For me, there's nearly always a seed idea, that I suppose is the
archetype, or a facet thereon. Then comes most of the character,
then the stats/equipment, plus an occasional bit of honing of the
character at the end to explain that Level 15 skillsoft... ;-)

For example, with Pierre, I had this idea for a Frenchman, based partly
on the castle guard from 'MP and the Holy Grail' and things kinda
went from zere...sorry, I mean, 'there'.

Other times I know I want a character to do a specific function - like
Frog,
another PBEM char. - I wanted a 'tank', so went for a big, quick, strong
Troll....the character was secondary. However, I think that's unusual for
me...

J.
Message no. 8
From: James Dening james@************.force9.co.uk
Subject: Ironic...
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:08:26 -0000
>Many people wrote: comments inserted

>Han Solo was not a hustler, he was a smuggler: he would probably shoot you
>for calling him a hustler.

He bloody well *was* a hustler - he gambled (won the Falcon in a card
game), smuggled, rescued prisoners for money (Leia) - basically anything
to make a buck! He only started smuggling after he won a spaceship
in a sabacc game...

Anyway, the *point* was, that it's an archetype - for hustler, read smuggler/conman/
grifter/petty thief/informant - anything on the seamy side...

>

>Ummm... Belgarath did not have a supernatural legacy (i.e. no one in his
>past was magical). He was taught the Will and the Word by the God Aldur.

Oh dear....I suggest sir re-reads the books. I haven't, for a couple of years,
but I seem to recall that his maternal grandmother was Pol's sister. So,
that makes Belgarath his great-grandpappy. That's kind of a supernatural
legacy.

> > Disgraced/Retired Hero, wise, but generally unhelpful until
> he gets smegged in fight with main
> > baddy in second reel (Obi-wan, the Druid Allanon, Gandalf)

>I would hardly call the Druid Allanon unhelpful...

Dave, you're being kind of picky. Like I said, this are 'archetypes'. Sure, Allanon
is helpful compared to say, cor, I dunno....Wintermute, which is similar, in some
ways, but the *POINT* was, that you often have these characters who are on
your side, but can't help you overtly for whatever reason (need to conserve strength
for a greater cause, or can't give their allegiance away etc. )


> > Physically strong, loyal, mundane follower, near fatal
> > wound in final scene - Durnik, Chewbacca

>When does Chewie ever get hurt?

Can you spell 'pedantic'? ;-)) Look, the examples given are just
that - 'examples'! Now, because I'm talked about categories for
characters, nothing is going to fit perfectly, but let it go, fer
chrissakes! Otherwise we end up with 10,000,000 archetypes of
the nature
"6'6" Wookie with bowcaster. Tends towards spaceship
engineering and hanging out with Corellians."

Get my point?


>Actually, yes... I think you're ignoring the cold-blooded killer a la Mel
>Gibon in payback, who cares for nothing except the money. Another good
>example of the cold-blooded killer is Gary Oldman (as Zorg) in the 5th
>Element.

Nope - they're completely different, IMO - one's a coldblooded, selfish, "I
want what's mine" guy - the other's a meglomaniac psychopath. The Gibson
character is not a killer for killings sake - it's just a means to an end for
him. Zorg was *not* like that.

For example, would you let *both* types as PCs into a campaign that
you were GMming? I wouldn't.....

And, slightly narked, now,I haven't 'ignored' anything - I never claimed my
list was all inclusive, simply a starting point....

"Internet list watcher. Tendency to contribute to discussions a wee bit
aggressively..." ;-)

J.
Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Ironic...
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 03:26:18 -0800 (PST)
> >Ummm... Belgarath did not have a supernatural
> legacy (i.e. no one in his
> >past was magical). He was taught the Will and the
> Word by the God Aldur.
>
> Oh dear....I suggest sir re-reads the books. I
> haven't, for a couple of years,
> but I seem to recall that his maternal grandmother
> was Pol's sister. So,
> that makes Belgarath his great-grandpappy. That's
> kind of a supernatural
> legacy.

Psst...James...you mean Belgarion. :) He means
Belgarion, Dave. :)

> > > Physically strong, loyal, mundane follower, near
> fatal
> > > wound in final scene - Durnik, Chewbacca
>
> >When does Chewie ever get hurt?
>
> Can you spell 'pedantic'? ;-)) Look, the examples
> given are just
> that - 'examples'! Now, because I'm talked about
> categories for
> characters, nothing is going to fit perfectly, but
> let it go, fer
> chrissakes! Otherwise we end up with 10,000,000
> archetypes of
> the nature
> "6'6" Wookie with bowcaster. Tends towards spaceship
> engineering and hanging out with Corellians."
>
> Get my point?

Oh, and Chewie WAS wounded while fighting on the skiff
thingy-bob. It isn't made plain in the movie, but it
does say in the book he was hurt when Jabba's sail
barge fired on the skiff. (Sure, that's not a
near-fatal wound in the final scene, but it still
answers your objection, Dave. :) )

> >Actually, yes... I think you're ignoring the
> cold-blooded killer a la Mel
> >Gibon in payback, who cares for nothing except the
> money. Another good
> >example of the cold-blooded killer is Gary Oldman
> (as Zorg) in the 5th
> >Element.
>
> Nope - they're completely different, IMO - one's a
> coldblooded, selfish, "I
> want what's mine" guy - the other's a meglomaniac
> psychopath. The Gibson
> character is not a killer for killings sake - it's
> just a means to an end for
> him. Zorg was *not* like that.
>
> For example, would you let *both* types as PCs into
> a campaign that
> you were GMming?

*Doc' waves his hand in the air*

Ooooh! Oooooh! Can I answer that? Can I, huh? Can I? I
know the answer! Really I do!

> I wouldn't.....

Awwww...that's what I was going to say.

*Doc' sulks...*

> "Internet list watcher. Tendency to contribute to
> discussions a wee bit
> aggressively..." ;-)
>
> J.

Errr...K, ae, Dave, J...errr...not me...much...:)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'-booner)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Ironic..., you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!