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Message no. 1
From: carmen sbordone <sbordo16@******.NEWPALTZ.EDU>
Subject: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:25:40 -0400
>
> HALOWEEN JACK wrote:
> > that is what i meant how many player characters have you known that
> > is willing to do something for another person without some kind of
> > gain?
>
> I take it you mean "real" runners, not wussies :) like Dirk Montgomery
> and the like. *Very* few and (smiley mode off) I really think that this
> is the way things should be. After all runners are criminals that do
> bad things for money, never forget that.
>

I don't agree. Maybe in YOUR world, YOUR runners are criminals just
looking out for themselves, but not mine. Sometimes we do the right think
just because it needs to get done. Doesn't mean we do stupid and suicidaul
things though.....

grey knight


> --
> GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
> PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r
>
> "In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
> to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
>
Message no. 2
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 15:58:51 +0100
carmen sbordone wrote:
> > HALOWEEN JACK wrote:
> > > that is what i meant how many player characters have you known that
> > > is willing to do something for another person without some kind of
> > > gain?
> >
> > I take it you mean "real" runners, not wussies :) like Dirk
Montgomery
> > and the like. *Very* few and (smiley mode off) I really think that this
> > is the way things should be. After all runners are criminals that do
> > bad things for money, never forget that.
>
> I don't agree. Maybe in YOUR world, YOUR runners are criminals just
> looking out for themselves, but not mine. Sometimes we do the right think
> just because it needs to get done. Doesn't mean we do stupid and suicidaul
> things though.....

Sorry, didn't mean to insult anyone, I was just stating the facts as I
perceive them. To me anyone that breaks into corporate installations,
kidnapps people, steals anything from money to experimental biological
weapons, shoots/kills sec-guards and corporate personnel (including the
police) owns/uses illegal equipment/cybernetic enhancements/substances
is a criminal by definition.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 3
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 09:35:54 -0600
Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> Sorry, didn't mean to insult anyone, I was just stating the facts as I
> perceive them. To me anyone that breaks into corporate installations,
> kidnapps people, steals anything from money to experimental biological
> weapons, shoots/kills sec-guards and corporate personnel (including the
> police) owns/uses illegal equipment/cybernetic enhancements/substances
> is a criminal by definition.

Even if they're acting without pay to help rid the Ute govt., and humanity in
general, of a den of Toxic shamen? [recalling last night's run with a shudder...]

--
Mike Loseke -- Lory Student Center | Any technology that is distinguishable
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | from magic is insufficently advanced.
<URL: http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~loseke>;
Message no. 4
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 16:44:38 +0100
Mike Loseke wrote:
> Jani Fikouras wrote:
> > Sorry, didn't mean to insult anyone, I was just stating the facts as I
> > perceive them. To me anyone that breaks into corporate installations,
> > kidnapps people, steals anything from money to experimental biological
> > weapons, shoots/kills sec-guards and corporate personnel (including the
> > police) owns/uses illegal equipment/cybernetic enhancements/substances
> > is a criminal by definition.
>
> Even if they're acting without pay to help rid the Ute govt., and humanity in
> general, of a den of Toxic shamen? [recalling last night's run with a shudder...]

C'mon Mike you know that runners do more than fight insect spirits, and
BTW no runner in his righ mind would set off on a personal crusade against
bugs. Runners have to fight spirits, because they get payed to do it or
because they want to save their asses.
Its a very rare runner that will voluntarily place himself in danger
for no pay.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 5
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 10:26:33 -0700
>> HALOWEEN JACK wrote:
>> > that is what i meant how many player characters have you known that
>> > is willing to do something for another person without some kind of
>> > gain?
>>
>> I take it you mean "real" runners, not wussies :) like Dirk
Montgomery
>> and the like. *Very* few and (smiley mode off) I really think that this
>> is the way things should be. After all runners are criminals that do
>> bad things for money, never forget that.
>>
>
> I don't agree. Maybe in YOUR world, YOUR runners are criminals just
>looking out for themselves, but not mine. Sometimes we do the right think
>just because it needs to get done. Doesn't mean we do stupid and suicidaul
>things though.....

In my world, I'm toying with the idea of making the PCs into Shadowriders,
maybe just part time.
Message no. 6
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 18:39:44 +0100
The Cuckoo Clock wrote:
> In my world, I'm toying with the idea of making the PCs into Shadowriders,
> maybe just part time.

Shadowriders ?

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 7
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 12:04:43 -0600
Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> Mike Loseke wrote:
> > Even if they're acting without pay to help rid the Ute govt., and humanity in
> > general, of a den of Toxic shamen? [recalling last night's run with a
shudder...]
>
> C'mon Mike you know that runners do more than fight insect spirits, and
> BTW no runner in his righ mind would set off on a personal crusade against
> bugs. Runners have to fight spirits, because they get payed to do it or
> because they want to save their asses.

(Oops! Did I forget the smiley? :-) Yeah, I've killed more than my fair share of
mall cops and sec-forces that looked like they were gonna get in the way. I've also
taken the "high" road and done the morally right thing quite a few times as
well.
I'll even go so far as to admit that the latter were more satisfying in the end.

> Its a very rare runner that will voluntarily place himself in danger
> for no pay.

It's a very rare person that *is* a runner ;-)

And please don't mention bugs. Ick.

--
Mike Loseke - Lory Student Center | "It's called `evolution in action', and it
System Administrator & WebMaster | involves applying `extreme prejudice' to
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | people guilty of incurable assholery."
-*- | -marc@*****.isis.org
Message no. 8
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:17:25 -0700
>The Cuckoo Clock wrote:
>> In my world, I'm toying with the idea of making the PCs into Shadowriders,
>> maybe just part time.
>
> Shadowriders ?

Shadowriders are Lone Star's SINless cops. They are completely unnoficial,
and don't have to follow all the same rules as normal cops. I can't
remember which sourcebook I found them in, but the idea seems like a good one.
Message no. 9
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 19:16:18 +0100
Mike Loseke wrote:
> Jani Fikouras wrote:
> > Mike Loseke wrote:
> > > Even if they're acting without pay to help rid the Ute govt., and humanity
in
> > > general, of a den of Toxic shamen? [recalling last night's run with a
shudder...]
> >
> > C'mon Mike you know that runners do more than fight insect spirits, and
> > BTW no runner in his righ mind would set off on a personal crusade against
> > bugs. Runners have to fight spirits, because they get payed to do it or
> > because they want to save their asses.
>
> (Oops! Did I forget the smiley? :-) Yeah, I've killed more than my fair share of
> mall cops and sec-forces that looked like they were gonna get in the way. I've also
> taken the "high" road and done the morally right thing quite a few times as
well.
> I'll even go so far as to admit that the latter were more satisfying in the end.

Well nobody's perfect :) Actually every runner does that every now and then, we
all are human after all, but the point is that one good deed every 3 weeks of
death and destruction doesnt make you a good man and it certainly doesnt
make you innocent of your other crimes.

> > Its a very rare runner that will voluntarily place himself in danger
> > for no pay.
>
> It's a very rare person that *is* a runner ;-)

How very true.

> And please don't mention bugs. Ick.

Ok :) BTW What did you guys think of that stupid bug shaman in
House of the Sun. Dirk should have blown his brains out on the spot, his
sisters too BTW.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 10
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 19:30:44 +0100
The Cuckoo Clock wrote:
> Shadowriders are Lone Star's SINless cops. They are completely unnoficial,
> and don't have to follow all the same rules as normal cops. I can't
> remember which sourcebook I found them in, but the idea seems like a good one.

Hmmm, undercover cops :) I think I like that :) (sorry coudlnt resist :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 11
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 11:58:59 -0700
>The Cuckoo Clock wrote:
>> Shadowriders are Lone Star's SINless cops. They are completely unnoficial,
>> and don't have to follow all the same rules as normal cops. I can't
>> remember which sourcebook I found them in, but the idea seems like a good
one.
>
> Hmmm, undercover cops :) I think I like that :) (sorry coudlnt resist :)

If the idea of making the PCs Shadowriders doesn't pump your nads, you can
always make the an antagonist, they make great threats.
Message no. 12
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 19:59:34 +0100
The Cuckoo Clock wrote:
>
> >The Cuckoo Clock wrote:
> >> Shadowriders are Lone Star's SINless cops. They are completely unnoficial,
> >> and don't have to follow all the same rules as normal cops. I can't
> >> remember which sourcebook I found them in, but the idea seems like a good
> one.
> >
> > Hmmm, undercover cops :) I think I like that :) (sorry coudlnt resist :)
>
> If the idea of making the PCs Shadowriders doesn't pump your nads, you can
> always make the an antagonist, they make great threats.

I was rather thinking of making *one* of the characters a "Shadowrider",
this should blow the other players minds.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 13
From: "Matthew P. Macstravic" <s0238115@********.MONMOUTH.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 14:37:16 EDT
>
> carmen sbordone wrote:
> > > HALOWEEN JACK wrote:
> > > > that is what i meant how many player characters have you known that
> > > > is willing to do something for another person without some kind of
> > > > gain?
> > >
> > > I take it you mean "real" runners, not wussies :) like Dirk
Montgomery
> > > and the like. *Very* few and (smiley mode off) I really think that this
> > > is the way things should be. After all runners are criminals that do
> > > bad things for money, never forget that.
> >
> > I don't agree. Maybe in YOUR world, YOUR runners are criminalsjust
> > looking out for themselves, but not mine. Sometimes we do the right think
> > just because it needs to get done. Doesn't mean we do stupid and suicidal
> > things though.....
>
> Sorry, didn't mean to insult anyone, I was just stating the facts as I
> perceive them. To me anyone that breaks into corporate installations,
> kidnapps people, steals anything from money to experimental biological
> weapons, shoots/kills sec-guards and corporate personnel (including the
> police) owns/uses illegal equipment/cybernetic enhancements/substances
> is a criminal by definition.
>
> "In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
> to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
>
No real offense taken....But all 'runners are technically criminals, like
you said. That goes with the job. But there are runners who look at it as
they are trying to make the world a better place, and not just for
themselves. These runners are not the "Wussies" that someone so rudely stated
(I did take offense to that, bub....and you know who you are.) They are just
a different breed of Shadowrunner....something that my group (and a few
others) calls a ShadowKnight.

Just giving my view.

Matt

"Uh....NightStorm, we don't have any real food to feed Cintara's
Crow/Vulture/Raven/Whatever."
"Hmmmmm....Try giving him a few ration bars, Tic-Tac"
"He won't like 'em....we don't even like 'em"
"No....look at 'im....he likes them.....Hey Birdie!!!"
Message no. 14
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 15:32:15 EDT
Jani Fikouras writes:
>[snip -- definition of criminals by Jani]

Of course they are criminals... that doesn't mean they have to do
bad things. Modern day Robin Hoods perhaps?

U-Gene << might as well throw the arrow for all he's worth >>
Message no. 15
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 18:12:16 -0400
On Wed, 18 Oct 1995, The Cuckoo Clock wrote:

> > Hmmm, undercover cops :) I think I like that :) (sorry coudlnt resist :)
>
> If the idea of making the PCs Shadowriders doesn't pump your nads, you can
> always make the an antagonist, they make great threats.

What's worse is when *one* of the players is an undercover cop.
Without the rest of the party knowing about it, he's gunning to have them
all locked away. Talk about fostering paranoia.

Marc
Message no. 16
From: Cugel <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 00:37:04 +01.0
On 18 Oct 95 at 9:25, carmen sbordone wrote:

> > I take it you mean "real" runners, not wussies :) like Dirk
> > Montgomery
> > and the like. *Very* few and (smiley mode off) I really think that
> > this is the way things should be. After all runners are criminals
> > that do bad things for money, never forget that.

> I don't agree. Maybe in YOUR world, YOUR runners are criminals just
> looking out for themselves, but not mine. Sometimes we do the right
> think just because it needs to get done. Doesn't mean we do stupid
> and suicidaul things though.....

You must agree with Jani that /most/ runners (and I don't mean PC's)
are in it for the money and don't have any particular problems with
killing helpless people if it gets the job done. Being a runner means
you do illegal things, and sometimes that goes very far. If you don't
accept these runs when you play, okay that's your problem, but there
will always be ten others who will. And how do you define good and bad
in the shadows? Your employee might seem a good one, but the run
itself might be a preparation for a mayor hostile take-over in which
people "disappear". The problem with runs is that you never know
what they are till you're finished and even then the whole scope can
be far from clear...
And that is IMHO the fun part, you don't have to be good or bad
because you are only a small piece in the machinery and the corps
don't care what you think as long as you do the job.
And the course the lastest modules take with a "Good" and "Bad" side
is also in IMHO completely wrong and take the spirit out of the game.
HB is a great campaign, but it assumes the runners are good and that, I
think is wrong.

Just my thoughts on this whether they offend or not,

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net)
When you can flatten entire cities at a whim, a tendency towards quiet
reflection and seeing-things-from-the-other-fellow's-point-of-view is
seldom necessary. -- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GLS/CS$ d-(+) s+:+ a?(26) C+(++) U P? L? E? W+ N++ o-- K? w+ O- M- V? PS+
PE- Y+ PGP t+(--) 5+++ X+++ R+(++) tv b++++ DI? D++ G+ e++ h+(!) r++ y++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 17
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:14:59 +0200
}> I take it you mean "real" runners, not wussies :) like Dirk Montgomery
}> and the like. *Very* few and (smiley mode off) I really think that this
}> is the way things should be. After all runners are criminals that do
}> bad things for money, never forget that.
}>
}
} I don't agree. Maybe in YOUR world, YOUR runners are criminals just
}looking out for themselves, but not mine. Sometimes we do the right think
}just because it needs to get done. Doesn't mean we do stupid and suicidaul
}things though.....
}
I agree. The fact that the PCs are criminals doesn't mean that
they don't have feelings etc. While yes there is usually a long term
benifit from being 'nice' they don't always count. Our group rescued
one of our 'we want to chop him to little bits' enemies for no gain,
as well as two buddies (one twice).





Andre'

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who stay in the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strength to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bullets, sweat, tears |
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

-
|_|_
/ \ \ /~\/~~~~
| | | - \_/ + THUMP...Thump..thump = Boom ?
| | |
\___/
Message no. 18
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:07:47 +0100
Matthew P. Macstravic wrote:
> > carmen sbordone wrote:
> > > > HALOWEEN JACK wrote:
> > > > > that is what i meant how many player characters have you known
that
> > > > > is willing to do something for another person without some kind
of
> > > > > gain?
> > > >
> > > > I take it you mean "real" runners, not wussies :) like
Dirk Montgomery
> > > > and the like. *Very* few and (smiley mode off) I really think that
this
> > > > is the way things should be. After all runners are criminals that do
> > > > bad things for money, never forget that.
> > >
> > > I don't agree. Maybe in YOUR world, YOUR runners are criminalsjust
> > > looking out for themselves, but not mine. Sometimes we do the right think
> > > just because it needs to get done. Doesn't mean we do stupid and suicidal
> > > things though.....
> >
> > Sorry, didn't mean to insult anyone, I was just stating the facts as I
> > perceive them. To me anyone that breaks into corporate installations,
> > kidnapps people, steals anything from money to experimental biological
> > weapons, shoots/kills sec-guards and corporate personnel (including the
> > police) owns/uses illegal equipment/cybernetic enhancements/substances
> > is a criminal by definition.

> No real offense taken....But all 'runners are technically criminals, like
> you said. That goes with the job. But there are runners who look at it as
> they are trying to make the world a better place, and not just for
> themselves. These runners are not the "Wussies" that someone so rudely
stated

That was me :) and it was followed by a smiley, so take it easy :)
Anyway I think that your own reply contradicts itself, you agree with the
fact that shadowrunners are criminals and yet you proceed to claim that
they "are trying to make the world a better place". Could you please
explain to me how these two things relate to each other ? As far as I know
a criminal is a person who doesnt give a flying frag about society and just
does what he feels like doing. Someone who wants to make the world a better
place doesnt destroy society he tries to strengthen it - unless you'r an
anarchist, but that is a different story.

> (I did take offense to that, bub....and you know who you are.) They are just
> a different breed of Shadowrunner....something that my group (and a few
> others) calls a ShadowKnight.

:) No comment

> Just giving my view.

I thank you for that and I apreciate it very much.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 19
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:09:59 +0100
U-Gene wrote:
> Jani Fikouras writes:
> >[snip -- definition of criminals by Jani]
>
> Of course they are criminals... that doesn't mean they have to do
> bad things. Modern day Robin Hoods perhaps?

C'mon people this is an oxymoron, criminals that don't do bad things ???
Why are they criminals then, and we are not talking white-collar crime here,
shadowrunners commit multiple premeditated (sp?) murders in every run (well
most of the time).

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:09:26 +0100
Jani Fikouras said on 18 Oct 95...

> Ok :) BTW What did you guys think of that stupid bug shaman in
> House of the Sun. Dirk should have blown his brains out on the spot, his
> sisters too BTW.

They could just as well have been left out of the story, for all the
difference they made to it... I didn't like it at all that his sister got
transformed into an insect queen after all...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Reality < Television
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 21
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:14:27 +0100
Gurth wrote:
> Jani Fikouras said on 18 Oct 95...
>
> > Ok :) BTW What did you guys think of that stupid bug shaman in
> > House of the Sun. Dirk should have blown his brains out on the spot, his
> > sisters too BTW.
>
> They could just as well have been left out of the story, for all the
> difference they made to it... I didn't like it at all that his sister got
> transformed into an insect queen after all...

My sentiments exactly, bugs suck bigtime.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 22
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 14:37:53 +0100
Jani Fikouras writes:
> C'mon people this is an oxymoron, criminals that don't do bad things ???
> Why are they criminals then, and we are not talking white-collar crime here,
> shadowrunners commit multiple premeditated (sp?) murders in every run (well
> most of the time).
Saz who?

C'mon, Jani, that's definitly not right, I for one know two groups who
will kill only in self-defense. They go in with Narcoject Guns, Gel
Rounds, Stun- or Nerostn-Grenades, and only when encountered with really
heavy weapons (Assault Rifle vs. Narcoject-Pistol) they go for their
heavy ordonance.

Sure, they are criminals (they DO break in, they DO kidnap people),
but they really try not to do harm to people who 'just do their job', that
is, security personal. Death rate among Sec Guards is amazingly low,
especially with corps that don't have their own guards.

Just because the people you may know like hosing down anything in sight
doesn't mean anyone thinks or works that way!

On the bonus side, both groups are known for their low lethality, which
buys 'em good will with the average guard (who is happy he will see
his family again!)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 23
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 15:08:14 +0100
Sascha Pabst wrote:
> Jani Fikouras writes:
> > C'mon people this is an oxymoron, criminals that don't do bad things ???
> > Why are they criminals then, and we are not talking white-collar crime here,
> > shadowrunners commit multiple premeditated (sp?) murders in every run (well
> > most of the time).
> Saz who?
>
> C'mon, Jani, that's definitly not right, I for one know two groups who
> will kill only in self-defense. They go in with Narcoject Guns, Gel
> Rounds, Stun- or Nerostn-Grenades, and only when encountered with really
> heavy weapons (Assault Rifle vs. Narcoject-Pistol) they go for their
> heavy ordonance.
>
> Sure, they are criminals (they DO break in, they DO kidnap people),

QED

> but they really try not to do harm to people who 'just do their job', that
> is, security personal. Death rate among Sec Guards is amazingly low,
> especially with corps that don't have their own guards.

This is to your credit and I bet that it has goten you a healthy dose
of respect from the fixers you work for. Nevertheless you just proved my
point you may not kill too often, but you do when you are forced to do it
and you also do break-ins and kidnappings.

> Just because the people you may know like hosing down anything in sight
> doesn't mean anyone thinks or works that way!

Not only amok running killers are criminals.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 24
From: carmen sbordone <sbordo16@******.NEWPALTZ.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 10:31:25 -0400
>
> U-Gene wrote:
> > Jani Fikouras writes:
> > >[snip -- definition of criminals by Jani]
> >
> > Of course they are criminals... that doesn't mean they have to do
> > bad things. Modern day Robin Hoods perhaps?
>
> C'mon people this is an oxymoron, criminals that don't do bad things ???
> Why are they criminals then, and we are not talking white-collar crime here,
> shadowrunners commit multiple premeditated (sp?) murders in every run (well
> most of the time).
>

not even most of the time, if your runners are smart and plan
ahead(and you have a GM that is flexible). Look into the novel FADE TO
BLACK. The runners there on 2 seperate runs didn't geek the guards, they
just knocked them out with some kind of dart guns.

carmen

> --
> GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
> PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r
>
> "In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
> to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
>
Message no. 25
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:27:58 EDT
First off, I hate moral debates. Everyone has there own views on what
EXACTLY constititues morallity and since this issue is very personal,
no one's view is like to change. So this is my last comment on the issue.
I hope :)

Jani writes:
>C'mon people this is an oxymoron, criminals that do bad things????

Please, DON'T confuse morality with law. They are to related but different
concepts. If break the speed limit, tear the tags off matresses at
the department store, and flip
a piece of paper out my car window, I now have become a criminal. Does
that make me so HEINOUSLY evil that I should be wiped from the planet?
No, of course not. These things are constructs of human society to keep
the level of chaos down, they don't make a bad person. Tommarow they could
pass a bill saying its legal again to tear off matress tags. Now all
of the sudden it no longer evil to do???

My point is that a criminal is not evil by definition. I realize that
by 'bad' you might not mean evil, but that is what it sounds like.

Besides, Robin Hood DID kill the sheriffs men (ie security guards). :)
(Well, that also depends on which Robin Hood story your talking about)

It's already been listed that Shadowrunners don't have to kill security
guards, and from my experience typical runners will use stun rounds for
such occasions. Even when it does happen is usually can't be helped.
It isn't _right_, but NO ONE is just going to say "well, I just can't
shoot someone" and then let themselves get shot by mr. joe security guard.

U-Gene << is debating whether or not he _really_ wants to mail this >>
Message no. 26
From: Glenn Robertson <GLENN.ROBERTSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 09:42:47 -0700
> > No real offense taken....But all 'runners are technically criminals, like
> > you said. That goes with the job. But there are runners who look at it as
> > they are trying to make the world a better place, and not just for
> > themselves. These runners are not the "Wussies" that someone so rudely
stated
>
> That was me :) and it was followed by a smiley, so take it easy :)
> Anyway I think that your own reply contradicts itself, you agree with the
> fact that shadowrunners are criminals and yet you proceed to claim that
> they "are trying to make the world a better place". Could you please
> explain to me how these two things relate to each other ? As far as I know
> a criminal is a person who doesnt give a flying frag about society and just
> does what he feels like doing. Someone who wants to make the world a better
> place doesnt destroy society he tries to strengthen it - unless you'r an
> anarchist, but that is a different story.

If I may interject my thoughts, I'd like to reply. There are tons of
different laws out there. You can break any law adn instantly be a
criminal, whether it is murder, kidnapping, or failure to pick up your
dog's crap when walking it, spitting, jaywalking. So "criminal" includes
many types of people. So, a criminal is not "a person who doesn't give a
flying frag about society."

As for "criminals" that "are trying to make the world a better place,"
and are NOT anarchists, lets look at some of the environmentalists out
there. I'm NOT saying all environmentalists fit this category. For
example, certain members of organizations like Greenpeace have been known
to break laws, thus branding them as "criminals," yet all of the laws
they broke were all in the name of trying to "make the world a better
place BY saving the environment." They are not anarchists by any means.
They even have groups lobbying in Washington legitimately and law-abiding
to further try and push their point.

So, some criminals can try and "make the world a better place."


Glenn Robertson ___
Microbiologist Extraordinaire /***\
A.K.A. Miniature Livestock Manager |nasty|
|virus|
"My Homework Ate My Dog!" \***/
[-]
/^+++^\ /\
_/ / # \ \/
/ \ \_
| \
/
Message no. 27
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:43:20 -0400
Jani Fikouras writes:
> Sascha Pabst wrote:
> > Jani Fikouras writes:
>>> C'mon people this is an oxymoron, criminals that don't do bad things ???
>>> Why are they criminals then, and we are not talking white-collar crime here,
>>> shadowrunners commit multiple premeditated (sp?) murders in every run (well
>>> most of the time).
>
> > C'mon, Jani, that's definitly not right, I for one know two groups who
> > will kill only in self-defense. [ . . . ]
> > Sure, they are criminals (they DO break in, they DO kidnap people),
>
> QED

Ehhhhh. Your point was NOT that they are criminals; your point was that
shadowrunners are by definition mass murderers. Sascha has you beat on that
one.

Anyway, all of this is incidental to the ORIGINAL point, which was that it
is possible to be a shadowrunner and still keep a sense of morality. You
disagreed with this notion, citing that all shadowrunners are criminals..
However, you never did support your "criminals == no morals" logic, nor have
you defended it against the counterexamples that were posted.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| Gray's Corollary to Clarke's Theorem:
My opinions are my opinions. | "Any technology that is distinguishable
Please don't blame anyone else. | from magic is insufficiently advanced."
Message no. 28
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 15:48:33 -0400
On Thu, 19 Oct 1995, Glenn Robertson wrote:

> If I may interject my thoughts, I'd like to reply. There are tons of
> different laws out there. You can break any law adn instantly be a
> criminal, whether it is murder, kidnapping, or failure to pick up your
> dog's crap when walking it, spitting, jaywalking. So "criminal" includes
> many types of people. So, a criminal is not "a person who doesn't give a
> flying frag about society."

Besides, "criminal" is such a harsh word. I much prefer, the
kinder, gentler sounding "raving anarch." :)

Marc
Message no. 29
From: Kevin Magee <KMAGEE@*********.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 16:06:33 -0500
IMHO: It seems to me there is a great difference between committing
an illegal act and committing an evil act. Any act can have a moral
justification. Just cause a runner wacks somebody doesn't make
him/her evil; the victim might really have deserved it.
Message no. 30
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:56:37 +0930
Kevin Magee wrote:
>
> IMHO: It seems to me there is a great difference between committing
> an illegal act and committing an evil act. Any act can have a moral
> justification. Just cause a runner wacks somebody doesn't make
> him/her evil; the victim might really have deserved it.

The problem here is that evil and good are subjective, and are coloured by
our cultural values.

In many cultures, wacking somebody is ALWAYS evil... the ends don't justify
the means kind of thing.

I avoid topics of good and evil. Just stick to them and us... it's easier.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 31
From: The Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 17:49:21 -0700
I think we may be stereotyping a bit much here on both ends. We all seem to
agree that the "moral shadowrunner" thing is possible, from there on out
it's only a matter of the GM and the players on an individual basis.
Message no. 32
From: Glenn Robertson <GLENN.ROBERTSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 00:32:22 -0700
> IMHO: It seems to me there is a great difference between committing
> an illegal act and committing an evil act. Any act can have a moral
> justification. Just cause a runner wacks somebody doesn't make
> him/her evil; the victim might really have deserved it.
>
My sentiments exactly! ;)

Glenn Robertson ___
Microbiologist Extraordinaire /***\
A.K.A. Miniature Livestock Manager |nasty|
|virus|
"My Homework Ate My Dog!" \***/
[-]
/^+++^\ /\
_/ / # \ \/
/ \ \_
| \
/
Message no. 33
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:19:45 GMT
but how many times have you had characters playing the stereo typical
street sam living to cyber himself to death and saying he has so
little essence that he is a psycho.
i have just had one and had to kill him of as he already killed
two other pcs because the DIDN'T TREAT HIM WITH ENOUGH RESPECT what
do you expect if you have no regard for anyone else.
Message no. 34
From: Glenn Robertson <GLENN.ROBERTSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 00:34:55 -0700
> The problem here is that evil and good are subjective, and are coloured by
> our cultural values.
>
> In many cultures, wacking somebody is ALWAYS evil... the ends don't justify
> the means kind of thing.
Yes, well, in many cultures sex is ALWAYS evil. Those Heathens!!! That
doesn't make it so! <WHEW!>

Glenn Robertson ___
Microbiologist Extraordinaire /***\
A.K.A. Miniature Livestock Manager |nasty|
|virus|
"My Homework Ate My Dog!" \***/
[-]
/^+++^\ /\
_/ / # \ \/
/ \ \_
| \
/
Message no. 35
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:48:58 +0100
Kevin Magee said on 19 Oct 95...

> IMHO: It seems to me there is a great difference between committing
> an illegal act and committing an evil act. Any act can have a moral
> justification. Just cause a runner wacks somebody doesn't make
> him/her evil; the victim might really have deserved it.

There is a difference between good and evil and legal and illegal for
sure. Just because something is law doesn't mean it's good (say that at
an unemployment agency that wants to apply a certain law to you :)

I think you have to look at the context; my runners have killed I don't
know how many people, many just because they were in their way, others
because they _needed_ to get removed from society. That's just the killing
part; if you would figure in everything else they did that would be
considered a crime 99% of all shadowrunners would be on the FBI's top 10
wanted list :) Still many do it for some or another good reason...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Quaedam litteratura illitterato
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 36
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 15:06:22 +0100
carmen sbordone wrote:
> > U-Gene wrote:
> > > Jani Fikouras writes:
> > > >[snip -- definition of criminals by Jani]
> > >
> > > Of course they are criminals... that doesn't mean they have to do
> > > bad things. Modern day Robin Hoods perhaps?
> >
> > C'mon people this is an oxymoron, criminals that don't do bad things ???
> > Why are they criminals then, and we are not talking white-collar crime here,
> > shadowrunners commit multiple premeditated (sp?) murders in every run (well
> > most of the time).
> >
> not even most of the time, if your runners are smart and plan
> ahead(and you have a GM that is flexible). Look into the novel FADE TO
> BLACK. The runners there on 2 seperate runs didn't geek the guards, they
> just knocked them out with some kind of dart guns.

Yes, neverthelless the point here is not wether runners kill sec-guards
or not. I just meantioned it because its one of the worst things that happen
during runs. Even if runners dont go for the kill-all-enemies aproach they
still hurt other people (as Marc very nicely put it) and those people are
mostly litle people.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 37
From: Glenn Robertson <GLENN.ROBERTSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 07:06:49 -0700
> but how many times have you had characters playing the stereo typical
> street sam living to cyber himself to death and saying he has so
> little essence that he is a psycho.
> i have just had one and had to kill him of as he already killed
> two other pcs because the DIDN'T TREAT HIM WITH ENOUGH RESPECT what
> do you expect if you have no regard for anyone else.
>
That doesn't have to do with being an overcybered Sam. That has to do
with being a jerk and not knowing how to get along with other people.
There are gameplayers (I don't call them roleplayers) that just want to
do mindless killing and never interact, never solve mysteries, never DO
anything other than waste things mindlessly with the biggest nastiest
guns. I can say this in the fullest confidence because my roommate is
that person in every game he plays. It doesn't have anything to do with
being a Street Sam.

Glenn Robertson ___
Microbiologist Extraordinaire /***\
A.K.A. Miniature Livestock Manager |nasty|
|virus|
"My Homework Ate My Dog!" \***/
[-]
/^+++^\ /\
_/ / # \ \/
/ \ \_
| \
/
Message no. 38
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 00:37:51 +0930
Glenn Robertson wrote:
>
> > The problem here is that evil and good are subjective, and are coloured by
> > our cultural values.
> >
> > In many cultures, wacking somebody is ALWAYS evil... the ends don't justify
> > the means kind of thing.
> Yes, well, in many cultures sex is ALWAYS evil. Those Heathens!!! That
> doesn't make it so! <WHEW!>

No... it does make it evil, to those people, to that point of view.

Good and evil are not objective. They are subjective. If using force is a
"moral" thing to do, then such use doesn't make the runners immoral...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 39
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 17:41:17 +0100
S.F. Eley wrote:
> > Sascha Pabst wrote:
> > > Jani Fikouras writes:
> >>> C'mon people this is an oxymoron, criminals that don't do bad things
???
> >>> Why are they criminals then, and we are not talking white-collar crime
here,
> >>> shadowrunners commit multiple premeditated (sp?) murders in every run
(well
> >>> most of the time).
> >
> > > C'mon, Jani, that's definitly not right, I for one know two groups who
> > > will kill only in self-defense. [ . . . ]
> > > Sure, they are criminals (they DO break in, they DO kidnap people),
> >
> > QED
>
> Ehhhhh. Your point was NOT that they are criminals; your point was that
> shadowrunners are by definition mass murderers. Sascha has you beat on that
> one.

My original point was that runners are criminals and that their ocasional
good deed does not make them good guys(tm). The mass-murderer thingy was
just a convenient example.

> Anyway, all of this is incidental to the ORIGINAL point, which was that it
> is possible to be a shadowrunner and still keep a sense of morality. You
> disagreed with this notion, citing that all shadowrunners are criminals..
> However, you never did support your "criminals == no morals" logic, nor
have
> you defended it against the counterexamples that were posted.

I operate under the assumption that runners are hired to do things that
are contrary to the wishes of the targeted corporation. I also assume that
these actions hurt the corporation in one way or another thusly making
runners criminals. Also given the fact that the corporate structure makes
sure that losses are almost always felt by the lower (not responcible)
parts of the hierarchy (as many others have showed), "robin hood" wanabe
runners also fail to achieve their objective namely hurting the corporation
and "scoring one for the people".
I think that this has been made clear enough.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 40
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 18:00:45 +0100
Kevin Magee wrote:
>
> IMHO: It seems to me there is a great difference between committing
> an illegal act and committing an evil act. Any act can have a moral
> justification. Just cause a runner wacks somebody doesn't make
> him/her evil; the victim might really have deserved it.

*Sigh* Agreed, do you mean that every single individual that got killed
by your runners deserved to die ? And even if they do ocasionally kill
"evil" people that deserve it and thusly do society a favour, does that
make them good guys ?

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 41
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 18:54:53 +0100
Jani wrote:
> *Sigh* Agreed, do you mean that every single individual that got killed
> by your runners deserved to die ? And even if they do ocasionally kill
> "evil" people that deserve it and thusly do society a favour, does that
> make them good guys ?
Not much to say, have a look at my signature :-)

--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 42
From: Glenn Robertson <GLENN.ROBERTSON@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 16:33:52 -0700
> > > The problem here is that evil and good are subjective, and are coloured by
> > > our cultural values.
> > >
> > > In many cultures, wacking somebody is ALWAYS evil... the ends don't justify
> > > the means kind of thing.
> > Yes, well, in many cultures sex is ALWAYS evil. Those Heathens!!! That
> > doesn't make it so! <WHEW!>
>
> No... it does make it evil, to those people, to that point of view.
>
> Good and evil are not objective. They are subjective. If using force is a
> "moral" thing to do, then such use doesn't make the runners immoral...
Yes, but just because it is to some, does that make it so for all? What
if you don't feel that it is, but you are there by yourself and don't
think it is?

Glenn Robertson ___
Microbiologist Extraordinaire /***\
A.K.A. Miniature Livestock Manager |nasty|
|virus|
"My Homework Ate My Dog!" \***/
[-]
/^+++^\ /\
_/ / # \ \/
/ \ \_
| \
/
Message no. 43
From: Fikouras Nick <jfiko@********.PHYSICS.AUTH.GR>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 03:36:09 +0200
>
> Kevin Magee wrote:
> >
> > IMHO: It seems to me there is a great difference between committing
> > an illegal act and committing an evil act. Any act can have a moral
> > justification. Just cause a runner wacks somebody doesn't make
> > him/her evil; the victim might really have deserved it.
>
> *Sigh* Agreed, do you mean that every single individual that got killed
> by your runners deserved to die ? And even if they do ocasionally kill
> "evil" people that deserve it and thusly do society a favour, does that
> make them good guys ?

Excuse me have I missed something ? Are there people out there that really
believe that the act of killing an other human being can be in any way
justified ? How can someone deserve to die ? And even in the most rare cases
where people have commited the most disgusting things there are laws that
decide what their punishment is going to be. Imagine what would happen in
a society where everyone would take the law in his own hands, we are talking
BIG CHAOS.

--Nick

--

"Tonight, hell sends an Angel bearing gifts"
the Crow.
Message no. 44
From: Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 18:53:30 EDT
On Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:09:26 +0100 Gurth wrote:

>Jani Fikouras said on 18 Oct 95...
>
>> Ok :) BTW What did you guys think of that stupid bug shaman in
>> House of the Sun. Dirk should have blown his brains out on the spot, his
>> sisters too BTW.
>
>They could just as well have been left out of the story, for all the
>difference they made to it... I didn't like it at all that his sister got
>transformed into an insect queen after all...

I would say that Nigel Findley probably introduced them in this book
to be used as a plot element in an upcoming story....which, of course, will
never be. He'll be missed.


____TIM KERBY____ |===================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
_________________ |===================================================
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Message no. 45
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 12:49:50 +0930
Glenn Robertson wrote:
> >
> > Good and evil are not objective. They are subjective. If using force is a
> > "moral" thing to do, then such use doesn't make the runners immoral...
> Yes, but just because it is to some, does that make it so for all? What
> if you don't feel that it is, but you are there by yourself and don't
> think it is?

If you feel the use of force is moral, then using it is not immoral, nor
does it make you evil for using it. In your opinion, anyway...

Let's get off this good and evil drek, shall we? Stick to them and us, and
maybe instead of saying "we're good", go for "we're altruists". At
least
that one's provable.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 46
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 12:58:32 +0930
Fikouras Nick wrote:
> > *Sigh* Agreed, do you mean that every single individual that got killed
> > by your runners deserved to die ? And even if they do ocasionally kill
> > "evil" people that deserve it and thusly do society a favour, does
that
> > make them good guys ?
>
> Excuse me have I missed something ? Are there people out there that really
> believe that the act of killing an other human being can be in any way
> justified ? How can someone deserve to die ? And even in the most rare cases
> where people have commited the most disgusting things there are laws that
> decide what their punishment is going to be. Imagine what would happen in
> a society where everyone would take the law in his own hands, we are talking
> BIG CHAOS.

*sigh* Let us take into account a few case scenarios. Is war justified? Is
the soldier serving the state a criminal, or a hero? If you kill someone in
self-defence, is that evil, or mere survival?

What gives police the _moral_ right to take the law into their hands? They
are people as well. What gives judges and juries the right to convict
people, and punish them?

When you get right down to it, Nick, the only thing that makes any action
"good" or "evil" are the values of the culture the act takes place in.
Laws
are not divine script. They are rules which society makes that reflect, to
some extent, the values the society holds. And what is a society? It is
merely a collection of _people_.

To quote Robert Heinlein:
"A democracy is based on the assumption that one million people are wiser
than one man. How's that again? I missed something."

To which, his counter quote was:
"Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million
men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?"

As for imagining a society where everyone would take the law into his own
hands, we're not talking about chaos. We're talking about anarchy. And an
anarchy is as good or as evil as the _common_ values the vast majority
hold. When you get right down to it again, laws are just used because we
don't, as a whole, believe that people are good.

"The good invented justice, for they had no fear of punishment. The evil
did, so they invented mercy". A warm fuzzy feeling to the first person to
identify the source.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 47
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: I take offense....
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:15:12 GMT
ahh now there is a difference most of the members in the game i run
have a background of street punks that have fought there way up but
now that they are were they are some of them have forgotten there
background and abused there gangs trust some have not.

what i am really saying is that characters should take care of there
contacts as one day they might need they again.
Message no. 48
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: I take offense...
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:30:17 GMT
it is quite correct that some people that no matter what character
they have they will automatically have a character that will kill for
the sake of it and that is why i have in the latest run depowered all
of my pc's limiting them to B cash maximum and no starting weapon
bigger than an smg from the street sam catalogue.
actually this seems to have worked on all characters apart from one
who ended up with 0.01 essence and 5.9 body 18+3d6 initiative and
stats near 12 for quickness and strength. while the rest of the group
had 4+d6 initiative this i thought in the end turned all the group
against the sammie along with him killing two johnsons one team
member and messing up one of the runs because he attacked keane in
the urban brawl game
he then refused when given a chance to create his new character (the
sammie died in combat with kyles dragon) to become a rigger because
he wanted a for a for resources as he could buy a vanquisher minigun
for his bike

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Further Reading

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Thwap!