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Message no. 1
From: Deird'Re Brooks <deirdre@***.ORG>
Subject: Ivy: Replies & stuff
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 09:56:28 -0800
Responses from Ivy K. Ryan
To: Robert A Hayden
Subj: Dragon Killing

Yeah, roight!
>>The obvious way to kill a dragon is to save up about 100 karma
>>points, and then attack them with a butter knife, spending all
>>of the karma on auto-successes.
>>Sheesh, like it's not obvious or something.
>>____ Robert A. Hayden <=>

A butter knife is a (Str-?)L weapon. The dragons 8 to 20 points
of vehicular armor halves the Damage Level of the attack and
subtracts one from the Damage Code. AND acts as a barrier. So
where do *you* find characters who have a minimum of 18 Str (for
a small dragon) to 26 Str (for a Great Dragon) to make this
attack?
Ivy K.

>Reply from Robert Watkins
>to Ivy K. Ryan
>Subject; Ivy's first reply to Robert A Hayden
>>Only problem, Robert, is that karma CANNOT be spent for
>>automatic successes in the Shadowrun Two rules, and 100 karma
>>worth of re-rolls still won't give you a chance.
>It can, but it has conditions: "It is also possible to purchase
>raw success at a cost of 1 Karma Point per success, BUT on two
>hefty conditions: First, the character has to generate at least
>one success normally through the test. No natural, regualar
>successes, no natural, regualar successes, no
>karmic successes. Second, Karma Pool dice spent to buy a success
>are gone (pffft)! forever, expended permanently. They do not
>refresh with the pool in the next scene. Replacement Karma must
>be earned."

I stand (sit) corrected. I have never spent permanent karma for
successes in my 4 years and 2 months of playing Shadowrun so I
forgot that part. Sorry.
Ivy K.

To *Powerhouse*
Subj: Ivy's post of some mods for Shadowrun
Love your "UZI a day. . ." tagline! Don't I wish. . .

Yeah, I just posted the things for comment and to learn things.
Thank you for the skinny on the effects of a Medium Allergy. It
really isn't defined in the rulebook. I like your interpretation
more than my own, so I'll use it henceforth.

Thanks for the correction on the Power xxx vs the Ram spell too.
I had missed those points. That is why I posted the stuff. I
ain't perfect, yet.

I haven't *tried* the lifestyle deal out yet, probably never
will, but I really did want to see what other folks would say to
it. I'm not *that* sure it would work either.

Thank you for your compliments. They made my day.
Ivy K.

To Neal A. Porter
Subj: Huge personal karma pools.
>>Deirdre, who brought Sister Sinister from a Group Total of 300
>>down to six in three encounters

> Is this 300 the group or personal Karma. And also are you
>talking about permenant loss of Karma pool, or just use until it
>refreshes.
> If it permenant how did the charecters feel about four years
>worth of work going down the drain?

> You seem to play a very high powered game either way, do your
>players enjoy that sort of game? If they do then the best of
>luck to you, I just hope none of your charecters ever take a
>dislike to mine.
The group in question was my team. Shamrock, a decker-razor with
132 karma, The Dragon Lady, a Combat mage with 147 karma, and
Diamonds, a Razor-decker with 154 karma. Shamrock had 1 karma
left, The Dragon Lady had 3 left, and Diamonds was down to 2
karma. I thought it was a great run! We were running against a
Yamatetsu sub-corp on a rescue mission and we ran into some real
wierd "bugs" and the Shaman behind them. Shamrock and TDL are
both retired now, TDL teaches at Gottingen and 'Rocks runs deck
out of Basel but Diamonds just un-retired herself. She quit her
executive military job with the Nubian Nation and is back out
looking for work. She "got bored" again. I started them as a
team back in September 1990 and they are my hot-shots.

(My first character, Speedline, never got played as much and
finally became an NPC while I GM'd. 'Lines was started back in
September 1989 when the game first came out. I had the first
rulebook sold in Portland, Oregon.)

It WAS temporary karma, I have never spent permanent karma for
successes. I would, if I had to, but I know when to back out and
try again later.

High powered games? Well, *they* aren't the high-powered ones.
Deirdre and my husband, Ralph, both play characters with over 350
personal karma pools. (We don't use the group karma system) I
do the GMing for them and I haven't have much trouble since I
figured out the way karma re-charges. (We normally just have the
two players and one GM because we live out in the sticks and
other players are hard to find. When we do have other players we
play different, lower powered, characters.) These characters
date from the start of the game and it does work for us.

To: The Reverend (?) and everyone else too.
Subj: Huge personal karma pools
Reverend, I know why you posted the "sick" (>>) comments but I
thought I'd put my 2 nuyen explanation in as I am the one who
GM's for the 350+ karma characters. I also play the decker
Deirdre mentioned. Deirdre's comments have the (>).

>> WHAT?!!?!!?!?!!?!?!!?
>> DID YOU SAY "HUNDRED"?!?!?!!!??!?!

>Actually, I typed it, but it amounts to the same thing.

>> *ahem*
>> Hate to say this, but... SICK! I'd like to see how an honest
>>character in a non-munchkin campaign got this much! That's
>>Three THOUSAND Karma, chummers. Shadowrun's been out for about
>>4 years, or roughly 1000 karma per year. At ~50 weeks in a
>>year, that's 20 karma per week! Is that just an extremely high
>>powered campaign, or a karma-easy one? Considering even the UB
>>module didn't give out that much! (p.199, SR2 Black) "A real
>>horror show woulde be worth 6 to 8 points or so, but that
>>requires combat, danger, and powerful opposition, where the
>>objective is wrapped in twisting paths of mystery!"

Well, Reverend (?), to really put a cap on it the average karma
reward in our game is 6 to 8 points. Of course, we play an
average of 5 days a week and have since 1989. We don't watch TV
and can't afford to go out so we play Shadowrun. We have taken
breaks but the two characters with 350+ karma have been played
for a bit over 4 YEARS at the above rate. 20 karma a week? Some
weeks have generated 40 karma! That's what happens when a group
plays a lot. I used to see it in the Army in the AD&D days too.
A group would play daily for a year or so and then wonder why
AD&D gave out on them. They were 20+ level from all the playing
is why. At least Shadowrun still works, and well, at that power
level.

>Most of the modules award more than that, such as Imago and
>Harlequin, as well as the Findley-specials int he back of the
>NAN books. As for the rest, we play an average of 3-4 times a
>week when we *do* play Shadowrun. Munchkin? Sometimes I think
>that munchkin doesn't mean what most people *think* it means.
>It becomes a convenient word to bandy about when someone is
>playing a higher level game than you'd ever *think* of. To the
>point, the PCs were all at roughly the same level of power and
>were roughly equally challenged. And it _is_ possible to
>challenge them. Yes, I've been able to burn out a Decker's 124
>pt. Karma pool in a reasonably secure matrix system. Anyway,
>none of the PCs had a significant advantage over other PCs
>played at the same time, nor were the players really trying to
>attain it. The words you may be searching for is "Monty Haul"
>but then Monty Haul doesn't have car bombs and snipers.

I played the decker, as I said. It started as a simple
penetration of a Yamatetsu mainframe and turned into a real
nightmare. Shamrock has a Computer skill of 12, a home-built
deck with a MPCP of 12, and the best programs she could write and
she got out with about 2 karma left. Take a look at the
Anarchist Guide to Real Life for a rough idea of what characters
*should* be facing on a run. Then consider that almost all of
those things are available NOW and wonder what security will
really be like then. A reasonable estimate for Fastjack's karma
pool, from one who has 124 points, is that he has over 350
himself. He "takes a look around" in the Fuchi Mainframe for
Goddess' sake. A Red 10+ system, such as Tir (either) or
Fuchi/Yamatetsu/UCAS Gov't or any other government's top security
areas, if properly designed, would *require* a 300+ point karma
pool to get through. Most of the time the decker will be running
with a load of 4, or less! (Blasted data-line junctions) That
gives the decker a maximum of 4 program dice and 4 pool dice,
plus karma dice and re-rolls to get through.
(>>>>>[From experience, tain't easy. Even for the Net-
prechaun]<<<<<
--Shamrock(Good Luck/He-He-He))
(Hmmm, looks like 'Rocks dropped a line in. . .)

As for the "Munchkin" comments, I've been war-gaming since '67
and DM/GMing since '77 and I've SEEN 'em all. Munchkins, Monty
Haulers, Pencil-whippers, the whole enchilada. Any game where
the GM keeps the players sweating blood or bullets ain't
"munchkin" in any way. (FEI, "munchkin" is a grade school or
junior high school kid with a 54/56/52/64th level
mage/cleric/fighter/thief, after one summer's play, yet. "Monte-
Hauler" is an inexperienced kid playing with his best buddy who
is given everything in the book and returns the favor for his
buddy the next day when he DMs. "Pencil-whippers" are the people
whose character stats, skills, etc are re-written every game.
Always upward.) We are all over 20 and my husband and I are
quite a bit over it. (I'm pushing 50) We have all been playing
games for well over 10 years, minimum, (1993 minus 1967 IS a long
time) and Shadowrun, in particular, since it came out.

>But, you play your way, and I'll play mine, and I won't put you
>down for playing at whatever power level you desire, why should
>I?

As Diamonds would put it, "Wh't eva' gets ya' kite up, honi', ya'
jus' slot it an' run it. 'memba', ya' be doin' it fu' ya'selv,
naht' th' U-skwae'Cz."
Ivy K.

-----
Marzhavasati Kali |If mail bounces, check spelling. It's deirdre.
deirdre@***.org |If that doesn't work, send mail to
|deirdre%efn.org@*******.cs.uoregon.edu
"I'm not just _any_ Harlot, I'm the _Whore_of_Babylon_!"
-- DB
Message no. 2
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ivy: Replies & stuff
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 16:33:42 -0500
On the thread of calling people's games 'munchkin': the most fun I've
had in a Shadowrun game, and the most absorbing Shadowrun character,
come from a campaign that we called "Escalation Shadowrun", and it was.
It was not a munchkin game; we were challenged, we backed down at least
once, and our character sheets were generally irrelevant. And the most
dangerous aspect of my character turned out to be something a starting
character could easily have.

You're free to call me a munchkin because of this; I don't particularly
care.

- cks
Message no. 3
From: The Reverend <mdb0213@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ivy: Replies & stuff
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 02:21:29 -0600
]High powered games? Well, *they* aren't the high-powered ones.
]Deirdre and my husband, Ralph, both play characters with over 350
]personal karma pools. (We don't use the group karma system) I

]thought I'd put my 2 nuyen explanation in as I am the one who
]GM's for the 350+ karma characters. I also play the decker
]Deirdre mentioned. Deirdre's comments have the (>).

Okay. First, which one is it? I keep seeing 350 personal karma pools, and
then 350 karma characters. I'm not flamin'; I just want to know which one you
mean. 350 KARMA characters I can see. Heck, I know a couple! However, in my
experience, any character that has that much has been retired LONG ago. I
think I see where you're coming from, though. 'Tis much different to retire a
200 karma character that you've been playing 6 times a week, than a 200 karma
character that has been played on and off for 3-4 years. I know that I
probably wouldn't want to retire a 1 year old character just because he has
that much karma in hir (although I've done it before).

]Well, Reverend (?),
That's me. Note the quote. Bonus cookies if you know who it's from.

]to really put a cap on it the average karma
]reward in our game is 6 to 8 points. Of course, we play an
]average of 5 days a week and have since 1989.

This explains a LOT. Being in college, we don't have much time to play SR;
the average (actually, the mode, if you want to get technical) is about 1 time
a week. And keeping one character for that length of time (a couple years) is
difficult. If you change groups, the best idea is to start a new character.
I've seen too many campaigns compromised due to characters being accepted into
new groups, without being scrutinized. (gods, lots of big words there:)

]weeks have generated 40 karma! That's what happens when a group
]plays a lot.
Hmmm... interesting to see a group like that.

]>It becomes a convenient word to bandy about when someone is
]>playing a higher level game than you'd ever *think* of. To the
Actually, in this case I'm recalling Diamond Walker. In his group, he (the
25th level [or was it higher?] initiate Crystal Shaman. I've mentioned him
before) was the weak one. The GM would give 5 karma if someone would get him
a Coke. THAT is munchkin. Out of the people I've talked to over the past 4
years about SR, I've never met anyone who played as regularly as your group
does, and they usually had gone through several characters. (I personally have
gone through four.) You're the first I've met that have played that regularly,
while keeping the same characters.

]Hauler" is an inexperienced kid playing with his best buddy who
]is given everything in the book and returns the favor for his
]buddy the next day when he DMs.
Also happens in college. "Monty-haul campaigns" are everywhere. Mostly in
D&D, but I've seen it elsewhere.

]"Pencil-whippers" are the people
]whose character stats, skills, etc are re-written every game.
Hmmm... new phrase.

Also: Power Gamer... the person who finds all the loopholes in the system,
but doesn't necessarily use them. Also known as a Min-Maxer. These people
also tend to take as much advantage of the system as possible. Look at people
playing Champions sometime. LOTS of min-maxers there.

Rules-lawyer: "it's in the book", "it doesn't say I can't" are phrases
I've
heard from them. They go by the letter, not the spirit. Sick stuff
comes out of them. Stuff like power-foci forearm guards ("they do
damage, don't they?"), etc.

]As Diamonds would put it, "Wh't eva' gets ya' kite up, honi', ya'
]jus' slot it an' run it. 'memba', ya' be doin' it fu' ya'selv,
]naht' th' U-skwae'Cz."
]Ivy K.

Gods.... what an accent. I need that translator that Nexus used (or was asked
to use)! :^)

Rev
---
The Reverend "They called me the Reverend when I entered the church unstained"
Fear the Information Revolution...for it has reached the hands of the strange.
PGP 2.2 Public Key Block available upon request
Message no. 4
From: The Reverend <mdb0213@******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ivy: Replies & stuff
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 02:23:26 -0600
]And the most
]dangerous aspect of my character turned out to be something a starting
]character could easily have.

So.....*nonchalantly (sp?)look around*


WHAT IS IT?!!!

*grin*

Rev
---
The Reverend "They called me the Reverend when I entered the church unstained"
Fear the Information Revolution...for it has reached the hands of the strange.
PGP 2.2 Public Key Block available upon request
Message no. 5
From: Ioannis Fikouras <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Ivy: Replies & stuff
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 15:03:50 +0100
> ]to really put a cap on it the average karma
> ]reward in our game is 6 to 8 points. Of course, we play an
> ]average of 5 days a week and have since 1989.

I played with a group this summer that played about 3-4 times a
week. It took us about a week to complete one of FASAS caned modules.
Well after about 3 Months we had EACH about 80 good carma, to use the
right term. That means 8 Karma pool for me (the other used a couple
along the way).SO CAN U SAY POWERFULL, MIGTHY, KICKASS.
Those chars could beat up anything, I admitt they where custom made
no archetypes and I always tend to use the ocasional loophole every
now and then, but 80 karma is way to much for the average campaign.
After that the GM practically killed us off.
(I got him though, I am GMing a Tir campaign where he is the player,
he gets to talk to my elven mage as and NPC:):):)


--

Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l+ u+++ e@ m++(-) s/+ !n(-) h(*) f+ g! w+ t+ r++ y?
Message no. 6
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ivy: Replies & stuff
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 15:41:37 -0500
The Reverend asks what the most dangerous aspect of my escalation
character was:

50 contacts

That's it. I got an amazing amount of mileage out of creative use of
contacts. In Shadowrun, it isn't necessarily what you can do; it's who
you know. Information is the key to nearly everything.

50 contacts are only 250,000 nuyen. Cheap at the price. Someday I'll
make a proper faceman/contact monster as a starting character and really
have fun.

- cks
Message no. 7
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ivy: Replies & stuff
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 17:51:08 -0600
> Well after about 3 Months we had EACH about 80 good carma, to use the
> right term. That means 8 Karma pool for me (the other used a couple
> along the way).SO CAN U SAY POWERFULL, MIGTHY, KICKASS.
> Those chars could beat up anything, I admitt they where custom made

Go on, make me feel guilty for "retiring" Jaez and her 140+ Karma and 11 die
karma pool. . .

You should play with Steve Huth. he ran a modification of the NAN adventures
when our party had between 100-130 karma apiece. The villains had karma pools
and Team Karma pools of their own. By the end of the adventure, we had
exhausted our own team karm in almost every encounter, and after the final
fight we had one mage knocked out, two characters (including mine only 1 box
from permanent death) with Deadly damage, a couple of Mod-Seriously wounded
characters, and one dead PC (the GM's own. He pumped a lot of bad karma against
his own PC).

It's all in the balance of things.


J Roberson

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