| From: | Deird'Re Brooks <deirdre@***.ORG> |
|---|---|
| Subject: | Ivy's Last Replies |
| Date: | Sat, 11 Dec 1993 10:35:20 -0800 |
re: Military time
Well, I'm surprised. You have such a great grasp of the realities of
warfare I really thought you had military time. And combat time at
that. You certainly *do* understand reality, anyway. Thank you for
your comments! I shall be available via E-Mail, only, from now on if
you ever want to chat.
to: Robert Watkins
re: Fractured Countries
I quote the SRII Rulebook, page 28, Right Column, paragraph four,
sentance three;
"Italy, southern France, and southeastern Europe shattered into
hundreds of tiny states and returned to the inefficient city-state
politics that had plauged so much of their earlier history." No
mention of Germany, and definite mention of France.
Having spent 1/4 of my life in Germany, with trips around
Europe, (plus my husband is a German Linguist, and we both keep tabs
on the place (we'd live there if we could!)) I go along with the SRII
rules on the subject.
In fact, *FOR MY GAME ONLY* we have a *completely* united Germany
which is the same as the pre-WWI version. Poland is much smaller and
takes up part of Byelorussia. Use the map in the Hammond Historical
World Atlas, Volume 2, page H44. Austir itself is a part of
re-united Germany but the rest of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire has
broken into city-states.
Nukes: Per the book by Robert Charrette, there was another "Great
Ghost Dance" and all the nukes were destroyed. Also, per SRII
Rulebook, page 28, when they talk about the Russian invasion of
Europe, they make no mention of the Russians nuking their way across
Europe. That *was* a part of the original Russian plan, according to
Field Marshall Cherenkov. Why didn't they use them then, when they
really *needed* them?
to: Warlock
re: 2050+ Japan
I use my impressions from my time there PLUS a few watches of
Japanese Aineme' (sic). The Robot cartoon (?) movies.
Gives me some great ideas. It is hard to do justice to the Ginza as
it was in the 60's, in the 2050's it will be *much* more
mind-boggling. For you Europeans, think of Copenhagen's downtown,
magnified by 20,000.
To: Robert Watkins and Jason Carter
re: Cyber-Soldiers
Jason, I thought you played Shadowrun? I also thought that the
figures would be self evident to anyone who played the game. Ok, here
it is. My example will be the 1st Division, UCAS Army versus 10
Divisions of British Military. The UCAS 1st Div. is cybered to the
max (per my designs) with all support on the same level. The British
are uncybered and their support is also uncybered. Otherwise the
British have modern equipment.
The 1st is going to attack a line held by the Brits.
The British overwatch satellites pick up the movement of UCAS LAVs as
they leave the ground in echelon 50 km away. At combat speeds the
Brits now have 3 minutes to get everyone to battle stations.
(Believe me, it takes longer to respond to an alert.) While the
Brits are getting into positions, in fact, at 2 min, 45 seconds, the
UCAS Artillery starts laying in fire. HE mostly, to get rid of
people with missiles and missile launchers. At 2 min, 48 sec, the
air-tanks arrive and start shooting up the hardened points, at this
time the Special Force types are shooting up the rear echelons of the
British. The SAVs are now using area suppression on the entire
British line. At ToT the Division arrives. One Brigade hits the
center of the British line. The other four Brigades each hit a
flanking division. The incoming troops *all* have initiatives of
27 while the British troops trying to defend have initiatives of *7*.
This means that the 1st has three effective rounds to their one.
The whole force is also rigged, and jacked to their weapons. They
see by thermo, lo light, and the pilots and gunners have their
sensors to see by. Plus the 1st has it's own overwatch. The 1st is
also jamming every frequency in the area with a rotating pattern that
has gaps that their commo is using. The entire battle will be over
within 10 minutes. Long before the British can collapse their line to
get the 5 unengaged divisions into contact with the 1st's Brigades.
Then the 1st forms into 2 two Brigade sized forces, one going left,
the other right, to roll up the rest of the British forces.
The Speed and communication advantage is three to one. Plus the
effects of having each squad effectively working as one man, two if
they split into fire teams, and each platoon working as 10 men, and
Companies working as 50 men. Tactical computers, full time
communications, and sensor 7+ means that everyone knows what is in
their area, and the commanders know what is up from the start.
My contention is that no force that cannot react at that speed has a
chance at all. I have read interrogation reports from A'Shau valley,
where the 1st Air Cav did a ToT on three North Viet-namese Regular
divisions and the most notable thing about the reports was the way
the speed of heliborne troops shocked the Vietnamese command.
Cybered troops in LAVs are faster by a huge margin. And a Brigade of
them can put out more fire than the entire 1st Cav could.
Movies, especially war movies, ain't real life. Don't take their
idea of the speed in which things happen to be real. They
intentionally slow things down to keep the viewer from being
overwhelmed. I have seen real, on-the-scene movies taken of an
Airmobile landing and it is F A S T! Cyber-military are going to be
*much* faster. As for them running out of ammo, I think that 700+
rounds in weapons that fire SA-BF only will last long enough. (Their
issue is 350 rounds (1 magazine in the weapon and four spares), and
troops can *never* seem to carry enough. They fill every pocket they
have. For example, the issue was 180 rounds in Desert Storm and friends
who were there talk of carrying twice to three times that in their
pockets and fanny packs.)
It seems that you two, and others, want a world in which your characters,
if you play the game at all, have no reasonable opposition. I don't
think that way. My game has evolved into one in which a reasonable
level of challenge is maintained for everyone.
re: SRII cyberware, comment by Jason Carter
>If you want to talk about SRII, use SRII cyber. . .
I *am* talking about SRII. I am projecting into the future with
reasonable technology to get a realistic result. The cyber that is
available to street people has been shown, by various books and
modules, to be the bottom line stuff. Generally way out of date and
available to the PCs for that reason. Alpha and Beta-ware is no more
than the same stuff more carefully built and installed. The cutting
edge is a lot farther out. The writers of the game didn't want PCs to
be able to get the real good stuff because the PCs are supposed to be
struggling. To get a useful level of military cyber the military
will be way out there on the real cutting edge. And I am only
talking about cybering some 150,000 people. NOT the 1.5 million that
we have under arms now.
BTW; The modular idea is a standard throught industry *now* and it
came from military designs of the 1950s. It will exist, especially
for state of the art items, in 2050.
As for your "Deep Pockets" comment, as I have sufficiently
demonstrated, when it comes to national defense there is no limit to
spending *if* you want to defend, not just lose.
And, think of it, another primary target for the cyber-troops *is* the
corporations. Tax time, folks!
re: Corporations more powerful than governments, comment by Robert
Watkins
Military power gets you economic power. The backthread throughout
the Shadowrun history is the UCAS government starting to re-impose
their control on the corporations.
Due to the fact that you two haven't enough knowledge of the subject
of the military, combat, or national defense, or how these things are
bought, paid for, used, or deployed to hold a meaningful debate this,
and my recent response to Ed Matuskey are the last answers on the
subject I shall be making to you two. Learn something of what you
two are trying to babble about and try me later.
to: The Deb Decker (J. Roberson)
re: Cybercops
>>. . . They'll never see the draw that kills. . .
>But how often are they likely to run into them. . .
The problem is that *those* monsters are the people that the police
are *supposed* to be HUNTING. Cybered criminals are their prey.
They are going to see them all to often. The police aren't U^2Cs,
their job is controlling crime.
re: Speeds and FASA
>They might have calculated the speeds as though 80mphPkph. . .
thanks for the idea. You are probably correct.
re: FASAs lack of a coherent world
What I meant was a World Book, kinda an Atlas, that tells us, in
overview, what the condition of the whole bloody place is. I know
that Hume wrote one, but FASA never published it. So I had to write
my own. And now some of the more drivelly stuff is contradicting
what I wrote. My world isn't changing, but sometimes it gets
difficult.
re: Dr. Dooms Germany
It's GREAT!!
re: Treason in the SEA involving Lone Star.
1. It's a PLOT LINE. NOT Reality, not that it coldn't be, but any
explanation would help my player.
2. The idea is shakey on a National Security basis. That IS a real
world type of worry. And the government pays people to worry about
things like that.
to: Seth Buntain
re: Battlesuits
Neat idea! Good competition for Cyber-soldiers.
to; GRANITE
re: Speeds in FASA
Different fuels, hmmm. I never thought of that, myself. I'm not
sure that would account for the huge difference, but it sounds good.
to: Doctor Doom
re: Cyber-Military
GREAT Thesis! I don't agree, but it's well written. I think, from
studying the subject myself, that the incredible advantages cyber
gives the soldier will turn any battle. See my description above.
Thank you for your Fourth Reich!!! I shall incorporate parts into my
own. GREAT WORK!!!
I use a Germany much the size of the pre WWI Germany but including
modern Austria. Politically, seems a bit like your version, mayhap a
bit more individualistic. I got the individualistic part from
knowing people who were there during the war. Dunno If I got it
right, my German wasn't up to the conversational level, but they were
very individualistic themselves, and, historically, so were the
German soldiers during the war. Dedicated to their country, but
no-one's robots.
If you have any more un-published work on the subject, I shall be
able to be reached via E-Mail. I *am* interested.
to: Robert M. Hayden
re: Marines
re: Marine vs Army Training times. Not so. Check it out. Marines
do one training drill that equates to the Army basic/advanced/MOS
trainings. Time is the same, The Army labels it differently.
re: Everyone isn't good at everything. Not now, but in a
cyber-trained force they would be. Pilots, incidentially, wouldn't
be involved in Army work. They provide high air cover, interdiction,
missile intercept, and not much more. They would be ancilliary to
both the Navy and the Army. Marines would be, as was started in 67
and is still continuing (restarted) under our new President, phased
out and replaced by properly trained Army. For cyber-soldiers using
LAVs it doesn't make a difference if you fly off a carrier or the
ground. Neither does anything else differ in their jobs.
Actually, if you want to think of it that way, consider that the Army
is being turned into the Marines. I don't care. The original idea
was to mix the two, and have the manpower trained by the Marine
Gunnery Sergeants anyway. Sounded great then, sounds even better now.
>You disagree. . . Of COURSE you do. So?
As for re-evaluating *my* thinking, maybe *you* should try it
instead. I think I have the experience margin, and the training
margin, that you haven't even thought of.
Learn, get experience, then try talking again.
to: Everyone
re: Hydrostatic Shock
That concept has been disproven *years* ago. The solid portions of a
body are too elastic to suffer that much damage from hydrostatic
shock. The shock-wound-channel closes up in less than a second.
Medical shock is different. My posting on bullet damage was
state-of-the-art as of 3 months ago.
to: Marcel Emani
re: Emotional effects of cyberware
Huh? you are kidding, right? I actually know a man, Gary Nixon by
name, motorcycle racer by fame, who is more metal than bone. HE
certainly doesn't have emotional problems with it. Luddite arguments
are a bit off.
to: Chris Seibenmann
re: Military cyber
Thank You! I shall get E-Mail from now on. I'm outa here. Write if
you want to chat.
to: Eric Christopher Trager
re: Tactical Computer in a PC
I have run a PC with the Tac. Com. It wasn't worth the Essense bite.
On the other hand, linked to a complete squad via secure, quick
frequency changing, commo, and to the Orientation system with military
grade maps, and support weapons, it *is* worth it. But that is the
military use of it. It really isn't worth using, IMHO, if you don't
have the rest of the squad to support it.
to: Everyone
re: Meaningless posting by unknowledgeable people.
I've read, and answered, too many of them! I'm outa here!
-----
To explain, she isn't reading the list any longer. However, if any of
you want to talk to her, send e-mail to my address (at the end of every
message) with "To: Ivy" in the header.
Thank you
Marzhavasati Kali |If mail bounces, check spelling. It's deirdre.
deirdre@***.org |If that doesn't work, send mail to
|deirdre%efn.org@*******.cs.uoregon.edu
"Nothing is impossible. There are only varying degrees of probability."
-- Gael Baudino, Strands of Starlight
