Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:47:31 EDT
I never received this post either. Considering my hatred of some of recent
SR novels (okay, not all SR novels, just a certain few) I would have loved to
have responsed to it, so I can't believe I missed it. Was there some list
crash?




-Twist
Message no. 2
From: JonSzeto@***.com JonSzeto@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 21:49:23 EDT
Since so many people didn't get Jak's message, I'll re-post it. Hope nobody
minds for wasting everyone's bandwidth.

-- Jon

--------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:00:47 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to JonSzeto@***.com."
] Since so many people didn't get Jak's message, I'll re-post it. Hope nobody
] minds for wasting everyone's bandwidth.

It's appreciated.

And now a <SNIP>.

] In many ways the Dragon Heart Saga was an experiment, and from most of the
] feedback that I've seen (sent to me, to FASA and on the list) the experiment
] was successful. However, there are obviously those who don't appreciate the
] trilogy <laughing at understatement>.

Sorry to say I haven't read it yet, having avoided the novels up
until about a month ago. Part of my decision to read the books
actually is because they've become somewhat required reading...

] So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels should
] play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?

I don't mind the idea of the novels dealing with large-scale events,
I don't see that as infringing upon roleplayers worlds at all. I'm not
adverse to the events of a novel not being included in sourcebook
material, as that gives people a reason to read the novel (and no, I'm
not saying that FASA's twisting our arms to do so). If it wasn't in a
novel, it'd be in a sourcebook, and guess which one's cheaper? :)
I still like the small-impact stories though, and I don't think FASA
should get away from these...the large-scale storylines should be the
exception, not the rule, IMO.
Anyway, there's my two bits. And I promise to read all the novels
real soon :)

-Murder of One
Message no. 4
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 23:31:56 EDT
In a message dated 7/15/99 10:02:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jak Koke wrote,
Jon Szeto reqouted:

> When Burning
> Bright came along, that changed somewhat, although that novel set up a
> situation (Bug City) and did not resolve it, leaving to PCs to play in it
> for a couple of years. The Bug City resolution came in a sourcebook without
> a lot of details.
>
> When I wrote Dead Air, I followed the "small-plot" model. I invented
> characters and designed a story which would have little impact on the SR
> Universe as a whole.

These two were both great situations and good examples. I do not mind the
Dragon Heart trilogy, and I liked parts of it as reading. (Of course, Twist
may deduct karma for me saying that, but hey, its my opipion :-)
I like novels to either be self-contained small plots (or off center stuff,
such as Crossroads) or to open up the possibilities and then leave it there
(like Burning Bright, teh best example of it)
Powerlevel wise-I wish some of hte novels had PCs straight out of the
character creation rules. Heck, I want the stats at the end of the novel with
the break-down for priorities :-)
I think that was it :-)
Message no. 5
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 00:25:12 EDT
In a message dated 7/15/99 10:02:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
JonSzeto@***.com writes (forwarding Koke's letter):

> So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels should
> play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
>
> Jak Koke


The novels should maintain a simple ideal: Never interact with the events in
the sourcebooks. Leave the sourcebooks to the players. That doesn't mean
you can't use the SR personalities, just don't take our plot hooks.

As for the novels, the whole thing that made them interesting was that you
didn't hear about them in the sourcebooks! They were the adventures going on
quietly in the shadows, stories you will never hear about on Shadowland.
They were the essence of shadowrunning. And now they're just narrative
sourcebooks. If you must have novels interact with the sourcebooks, at least
follow the Bug City/Burning Bright axiom: Introduce the cool event, and then
step aside. Note this is the exact opposite of what the DHS did.

Also, a note on characters. I make no distinction between the "classics" and
paperback pulps like the SR books. A great story is a great story, and we
shouldn't be told differently by others claiming only hundred year old
material is truly great. Yet when the SR novels degenerate into <shudder>
"gaming fiction" (read: The Super Mario Bros. novels or the Street Fighter
movie) they justify the idea that they are nothing of merit. Don't make
your character a superhero. Make them feel pain, and make them lose almost
as often as they win. Make the victories small, and make them hard fought.
Don't make the ultra-secret Aztechnology dela clinic guarded by three guys
with baseball bats (pretty much, compared to what was stored there). Don't
make your characters into The Man With No Name and his iron stare with the
cigarette stuck in the corner of his mouth. Make them people; give them
problems, give them vices, give them paranoid delusions if you must. Try and
eliminate the gratuitous sex scenes, or just suggest them (see 2XS and
Night's Pawn). Make the mysterious, intelligent, and dangerous characters in
the sourcebooks just as mysterious, intelligent, and dangerous in the novels.


And, above all and I say again: STAY AWAY FROM THE SOURCEBOOK PLOTS!!!!
They are for the gamers. Novels that use the sourcebook plots eliminate GM
options and become boring in continually seeing the same perspective in both
products. If I read about the mysterious Dunkelzahn assassination in PoaD, I
don't want to pick up a novel and see the answer plainly on the page and have
the sourcebook's mystery mean nothing and become silly, nevermind negating
whatever plots the GM had made up for Dunk's assassination. The sourcebooks
are supposed to provide the gaming mystery you base your adventures off of.
The novels are supposed to tell the stories different from the sourceboks,
and to give you the flavor of the game universe. Don't let either step on
the other's toes, or you cut back on the enjoyment of both.


All the rant above said, it's important to let it be said that even though I
hate the DHS, I have nothing against the writer as a person. This isn't a
flame at him or the work he has done and that is in the past and unchangable,
but hopefully a guideline he can evaluate to figure out where the anger from
those who didn't like his previous books is coming from. I'm just a single
person, so maybe others who didn't like the book had different reasons, but
from all those I've talked to online and off the above seems the jist of the
complaints.






-Twist
Message no. 6
From: Kismet kismet_sr@*****.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:05:36 -0400 (EDT)
--- JonSzeto@***.com wrote:
> Since so many people didn't get Jak's message, I'll
> re-post it. Hope nobody
> minds for wasting everyone's bandwidth.
>
> -- Jon
>
Thanks Jon!
> --------------------------------
>
> From jak@****.org Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:04:51 -0700
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:04:51 -0700
> From: Jak Koke jak@****.org
> Subject: role of novels in SR universe
>

> So my question is, finally, what role do you believe
> the SR novels should
> play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
>
> Jak Koke
> http://www.koke.org/jak/
>
>
<Warning> I'm going to into gushy fan mode here-
Your trilogy is why I am playing Shadowrun right now.
A friend of mine told us about the SR universe and it
didn't necessarily appeal to me. We were coming from a
mostly hero rpg setup and SR was just plain foreign.
He lent us the DH trilogy books to give us the layout
(Sorry no royalties from us:). We went crazy for SR
because of the large scale events. The lone shadowrun
team saving the world was 'heroic' enough to make us
want to play.

I am somewhat biased because we hate the adventure
modules(except HB). The few we bought from Fasa are
horrible for experienced role-players who like to come
up with their own plans. I would much rather read a
novel and adapt it into an adventure, than have it all
laid out with no options.

However, I am talking about the good novels. The ones
written by writers like you (warned you), Nigel
Findley, and Kenson. I now own 19 of the SR novels and
of them I liked 7.

This is all just my opinion of course. I have only
been playing Sr for about 9mos so you can always chalk
this up to newbieism.

Keep up the good work,
Kismet

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 7
From: Tarek Okail Tarek_Okail@**********.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 01:11:44 -0400
Jak--

>So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR
>novels should play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?

I don't understand the criticisms of your Dragon Heart
Trilogy. For me, game novels are designed to do two things: One,
establish or illuminate small areas of the game world, and Two,
resolve the *really big* plotlines. A lot of background material
and questions did get answered in the Dragon Heart trilogy, and
contrary to some listmember's opinions, I liked seeing this stuff.
I'd like to see more of it, though some of this background
material should be left for adventures and sourcebooks.
You also have to figure that this is all history; Interesting
as it is, the question of, say, "How did the Ghost Dancers learn their
magic?" is pretty much irrelevant to the everyday business of Shadowrun.
Yes, I said irrelevant. The business of Shadowrun and 'runners
is low-level intercorporate/international warfare.
While it may be fun for the players to have their GM work out
the details in a campaign, it's not all that fun for the GM sometimes.
Further, I prefer an "official" answer to many of these questions.

At the same time, I have to say that I disliked The Forever
Drug. I didn't object so much to the revalation of the Jewel of Memory
or the "Vaccine", so much as the fact that the book started out on one
track and then diverged onto another for no good reason. It would have
been an interesting read if the author had stuck with the "Will-o-wisp"
-as-drug plotline, but the addition of the two "Dunkelzahn's Will"
elements should have been left out. They should have been dealt with in
other ways and in other places.

Let's not forget that even if the "true" answer is revealed
in a novel, that doesn't mean that the plotline is over or forbidden;
For all the world knows, Dunkelzahn *was* assassinated. The hunt is
*still* on for his killer. Sure, the players may know better, but it
doesn't mean that the characters can't be hired to track down some
person or datum related to the Big D's death. If a playing group is
immature enough that they can't separate player knowledge from
character knowledge, they shouldn't be playing that plotline anyway.

So what if players can't play, say, the events of the Dragon
Heart Trilogy? They're not meant to play at that level. There can only
be so many at the top, and quite frankly, when you're talking about
major world-shaking events that are detailed in novels, you *need* to
be able to name the characters that are involved.

Shadowrun novels should still do those two things; Spotlight
the little details of the Shadowrun setting, and deal with the grand
plot elements that just can't be handled in a sourcebook; like Dead
Air and the Dragon Heart Trilogy have done.

Shadowmage
Message no. 8
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 02:57:52 -0400 (EDT)
Twist0059@***.com writes:
> In a message dated 7/15/99 10:02:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> JonSzeto@***.com writes (forwarding Koke's letter):

Thanks, I missed the original.

> > So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels should
> > play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
> >
> > Jak Koke

Ooh, a chance to rant and present opinions! I can't pass this
up. :)

For me, I desire two things from a SR novel.

1) I want neat toys to plagiarize and use in my own campaigns. Toys
refer to anything from character background or neat plot bits.

2) I know they're sci-fi, and RPG system sci-fi at that, but I hope
that they're legitimate pieces of good fiction. I'd much rather have
an author come up with interesting characters, a non-cliched plot
line, and execute it well, rather than make sure that he's listed the
model # of the latest Ares Pistol and it's firing rate correctly.
(I'l take both, mind you, but these are my priorities)

Not to belittle DHS, but take the example of Ryan Mercury...
He was the center of all sorts of interesting plot, and had all sorts
of mysterious background, but I didn't feel like I really got to know
him. He felt childlike to me, apart from a very strong sense of duty,
and that's about it. Maybe Dunkelzahn was to blame, but he felt more
like a preprogrammed drone than a human being. Too perfect, perhaps?
OTOH, the characters of Dead Air felt more human to me, so I
enjoyed it more than DHS.

> And, above all and I say again: STAY AWAY FROM THE SOURCEBOOK PLOTS!!!!
> They are for the gamers. Novels that use the sourcebook plots eliminate GM
> options and become boring in continually seeing the same perspective in both
> products.

I mostly agree, though I can think of one notable exception.
I don't mind it if preexisting characters pipe up and submit articles
for a Shadowland collection, or if they participate in Shadowtalk.
It was a pleasure seeing newer and older deckers appear in the
beginning of R:AS for the initial dialogue. You got to see what some
of the people you met in novels and other sourcebooks were up to, but
it was in a separate story.
Still, you can't do anything without ruining continuity
anyways. Either I tell FASA that the game world is too detailed, stop
and let me handle the details, or I accept new sourcebooks as canon.
I'll give my friend's example of a campaign he ran recently. He
figured that Rowena O'Malley was going to make Dona, and based his
underworld campaign around it. What do you do when Target:UCAS comes
out? Revise in-game history? (all your contacts were mistaken) Ignore
it? (diverging parallel universe)
We just accept that our game universes are going to diverge
after we begin, though we reset every few months with a new party.

Mark
Message no. 9
From: Jyster Cap jyster007@*****.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:05:19 -0400 (EDT)
--- JonSzeto@***.com wrote:

> So my question is, finally, what role do you believe
> the SR novels should
> play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
>
> Jak Koke
> http://www.koke.org/jak/
>
>
Its a game, the GM or players decide what parts
they want to use in their game. I really dont
think the books have any effect on individual
gaming groups unless they want them to.
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 10
From: Jarmo Karonen jarmo.karonen@***.fi
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:07:32 +0300
Thanks for Jon for forwarding Jak's post. Interesting that I managed to
see it even though I didn't even get mail from the list... ;)


Twist wrote:

>The novels should maintain a simple ideal: Never interact with the
events in
>the sourcebooks. Leave the sourcebooks to the players. That doesn't
mean
>you can't use the SR personalities, just don't take our plot hooks.

Why?

>If you must have novels interact with the sourcebooks, at least
>follow the Bug City/Burning Bright axiom: Introduce the cool event,
and then
>step aside. Note this is the exact opposite of what the DHS did.

On the sidenote I have to say that I really loved the way Tom Dowd set
the Bug City with Burning Bright. I would like to see something similar
done again. And I think that it might be the best way to introduce big
plots in novels without upsetting gamers like Twist while at the same
time keeping us -the big plot lovers- happy.

>Don't make
>your character a superhero.

What's wrong with superheroes? :)

>Make them feel pain, and make them lose almost
>as often as they win. Make the victories small, and make them hard
fought.

I think that most of the time Dragonheart Series followed these rules.
Ryan Mercury had weaknesses and his victories were hard fought. Of
course he managed to do some things easily. If he hadn't, it would have
been unrealistic. After all, he was a high-level character with curtain
skills...

>Don't make the ultra-secret Aztechnology dela clinic guarded by three
guys
>with baseball bats (pretty much, compared to what was stored there).

The extraction from the delta clinic just wasn't the biggest things in
the Series. Why make the opposition damn hard if there were bigger
battles and plot twists in store?

>Try and
>eliminate the gratuitous sex scenes, or just suggest them (see 2XS and
>Night's Pawn).

I actually enjoyed them... I think that they were written with quite a
good taste.

>And, above all and I say again: STAY AWAY FROM THE SOURCEBOOK PLOTS!!!
!
>They are for the gamers. Novels that use the sourcebook plots
eliminate GM
>options and become boring in continually seeing the same perspective in
both
>products. If I read about the mysterious Dunkelzahn assassination in
PoaD, I
>don't want to pick up a novel and see the answer plainly on the page
and have
>the sourcebook's mystery mean nothing and become silly, nevermind
negating
>whatever plots the GM had made up for Dunk's assassination. The
sourcebooks
>are supposed to provide the gaming mystery you base your adventures off
of.
>The novels are supposed to tell the stories different from the
sourceboks,
>and to give you the flavor of the game universe. Don't let either step
on
>the other's toes, or you cut back on the enjoyment of both.

Now here we go...

I really can't see your problem. How come novels foil gamemaster plots?
You can simply ignore what's written in a novel. If it is a problem,
it's because you made it.

To continue with this, I don't see novels telling the same plots as
sourcebooks. How can you say that? Somebody else complained how he can't
follow the arc because the novels are telling the different side of it
than sourcebooks. (I actually can't see the problem with this either:
novels are cheaper than sourcebooks, so why not buy them too...)
Sourcebook suggest many things, and novels pick one. That doesn't mean
_you_ have to pick the same one as the novel. It's there for the folks
who like to see the plotline resolved for them or shown how it can be
resolved. I don't actually see Shadowrun novels as real literature or
novels; they are different kind of sourcebooks and usually far more
entertaining than the actual sourcebooks...

- J. Karonen
Message no. 11
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 06:59:53 -0700 (PDT)
---Jarmo Karonen <jarmo.karonen@***.fi> wrote:
>
> Thanks for Jon for forwarding Jak's post. Interesting that I managed to
> see it even though I didn't even get mail from the list... ;)
>
>
> Twist wrote:
> >The novels are supposed to tell the stories different from the
> sourceboks,
> >and to give you the flavor of the game universe. Don't let either step
> on
> >the other's toes, or you cut back on the enjoyment of both.

> I really can't see your problem. How come novels foil gamemaster plots?
> You can simply ignore what's written in a novel. If it is a problem,
> it's because you made it.

Novels foil gamemaster plots -- at least *for me* -- because of two
reasons.

(a) No matter how badly written a novel is, there is going to be
*something* in it I would want to steal, and keeping what I want to steal
separate from what I'm saying never happened is a hard task for me.

(b) The novels and the sourcebooks cross-reference each other. So
let's say I hated the book about Lowfyr and Kham the Ork. I want to say it
never happened. Now I have to figure out what -- in my game -- is so
f**ing special about Glasgian Oakforest, and why is he hanging around with
Urdli as
mentioned in _Tir Tairngire_. Overall, more work for me.

(BTW, I strongly advise any other GM on the list to do as I did, and
tell their players which sourcebooks and novels they can -- or cannot --
read. My PC's are still wracking their brains over the odd things a man they
met in passing said and did -- a man named "Mr. Enterich" :>).

==--Number 10 Ox.
"It's a big yellow rubber ducky."
"Is it rigger-driven?"


>
> To continue with this, I don't see novels telling the same plots as
> sourcebooks. How can you say that? Somebody else complained how he can't
> follow the arc because the novels are telling the different side of it
> than sourcebooks. (I actually can't see the problem with this either:
> novels are cheaper than sourcebooks, so why not buy them too...)
> Sourcebook suggest many things, and novels pick one. That doesn't mean
> _you_ have to pick the same one as the novel. It's there for the folks
> who like to see the plotline resolved for them or shown how it can be
> resolved. I don't actually see Shadowrun novels as real literature or
> novels; they are different kind of sourcebooks and usually far more
> entertaining than the actual sourcebooks...
>
> - J. Karonen
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 12
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:24:50 +0200
> (b) The novels and the sourcebooks cross-reference each other. So
>let's say I hated the book about Lowfyr and Kham the Ork. I want to say it
>never happened.

And what if it was mentioned in a _sourcebook_ you hate and want to disregard?
You would have to do the same.

You can disregard any part of any sourcebook _or_ novel you want. However,
yes, if you do, you'll have to think up an alternative. But that's probably
why you did disregard it, you knew a better alternative. If not, be happy
they provided you with one.

VrGr David

"Shapes of angels the night casts lie dead but dreaming in my past and
they're here, they want to meet you, they want to play with you, so take
the dream."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "Sumerland (what dreams may come)")
Message no. 13
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:05:31 -0500
> To continue with this, I don't see novels telling the same plots as
> sourcebooks. How can you say that? Somebody else complained how he can't
> follow the arc because the novels are telling the different side of it
> than sourcebooks. (I actually can't see the problem with this either:
> novels are cheaper than sourcebooks, so why not buy them too...)
> Sourcebook suggest many things, and novels pick one. That doesn't mean
> _you_ have to pick the same one as the novel. It's there for the folks
> who like to see the plotline resolved for them or shown how it can be
> resolved. I don't actually see Shadowrun novels as real literature or
> novels; they are different kind of sourcebooks and usually far more
> entertaining than the actual sourcebooks...
>
The point isn't that the novels are cheaper. The point is that the novels
suck. Why would I buy something (even if it is cheap) if I can't stand to
read it. Second, many of us are on a budget. I pick up all the SR
sourcebooks, along with five (ten?) other games. I can't budget in novels as
well, especially when they are revealing the plot of the sourcebooks. This
is not a good business policy, in my opinion.
Message no. 14
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:13:42 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: <JonSzeto@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)


>
> Wow, I've been getting a lot of heat on the list (with some exceptions)
for
> the fact that the Dragon Heart Saga revealed or touched on the larger
plots
> in the SR Universe and thus shut out players from participating. So I'd
like
> to get some feedback since I'm in the process of writing another novel
right
> now.
>

Hi,
Although I do believe that the larger plots are good for special events
(such as transitioning from 2nd ed to 3rd ed), for the most part I like the
smaller plots. The reason I like the smaller plots, is that I can better
integrate them into my campaign, ie object A is stolen in a book, the PC's
are hired to recover it. Since this is my style, I would love to see it
occur more in the sourcebooks. Unfortanetly I cannot think of a specific
novel reference (I am at work), but I can think of a specific module
reference. The prototype of the "black IC surge protector" is stolen by the
PC's in a module (do not want to deal with spoilers, so will not state
which). Or for example in World Without End (I think) where Harlequin makes
a passing reference to the events from a different module.
Many people have complain about DHS (and I will not, as I have not read
it), but is it really better or worse than the Avatar Trilogy (a set of
novels based on the set of modules AD&D used to covert Forgotten Realms from
1st ed AD&D to 2nd ed). Third edition Shadowrun is a major overhaul of the
rules, changing many things that directly affect gameplay, and therefore our
stories and characters. For this I believe an earth shattering plot is
necessary, but for most novels, no, otherwise the plots no longer become
earth shattering, much like the way that if you use Horrors in every novel,
than every macabre action becomes a Horror driven action, and man looses his
darkest side.

Mockingbird
Message no. 15
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:40:45 -0400
On 15 Jul 99, at 21:49, JonSzeto@***.com wrote:

> Since so many people didn't get Jak's message, I'll re-post it. Hope
> nobody minds for wasting everyone's bandwidth.
>
> -- Jon

Thanks Jon. BTW, I appreciate your work too! :-) So tell me,
just who was the model that Les used for the cover art on R2?
Anyway back to the question at hand for Jak....

> In many ways the Dragon Heart Saga was an experiment, and from most of the
> feedback that I've seen (sent to me, to FASA and on the list) the
> experiment was successful. However, there are obviously those who don't
> appreciate the trilogy <laughing at understatement>.
>
> So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels should
> play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?

I'm suprised that Mike Frankl hasn't posted on this yet, but
then again, I'm off work today and at home, and he's not. The
reason I say that, is he, as our GM, took us through the whole
Dragon Heart Saga after he'd read it. Of course things were
changed some. Matter o' fact, I'm gonna' add some spoiler
space here peoples.



Spoiler



Spoiler


Spoiler


Spoiler


Spoiler


Our group was contracted by Assets Inc and the Draco
foundation. We went on some of the runs, either as
diversionary groups, or after another "item" or such that they
needed. We even came up against Burnout. I'd read the novels
too, the only one at the table, and it was really something
when Mike would introduce something or someone and I'd go
"oh shit" then bite my tounge. I can seperate what I know as a
player and what my character knows unlike some folks. I even
put myself into situations where I knew I was gonna' get hurt,
but I did it because my character didn't know any better. It
was a great adventure, took us weeks and weeks to complete
(we play every other week) and in the end, was fatal for a large
number of our group when we fought at the bridge, right beside
of Ryan and the others. But that was okay. It was time for a
change.

Back to what I'm trying to say to Jak here. You wrote what
you wrote at the direction of Mike Mulvhill and others. You
took the storyline where the game developers wanted to go.
For that matter, the game was already headed that direction,
what you did, was add filler for it all to make sense. I applaude
your efforts. I really liked the novels. (Hell, I think I've liked all
of them, but I really, REALLY, liked the DHS.) So, as to what
you did, I think it was the right thing to do because of the
interaction with the game developers.

Would I want all authors to do this? No. I wouldn't want an
author to take major players in the story line and screw them
up in some way or have them do something that would
(normally) have major lasting effects on the game universe.
UNLESS, it is something that FASA wanted done. See, that's
the key. If it's working along with the development of the
game, great. And, if some aspiring author happens to write a
great book and Mike and the others decide after the fact to
incorporate it into a more detailed environment (like a source
book) then all's the better. That's my two cents worth.





---
::Sound of Autocannon fire::
You mean, you thought there WAS somebody following us.
-- Raven.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 16
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:56:22 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/99 10:20:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl writes:

>
> And what if it was mentioned in a _sourcebook_ you hate and want to
> disregard?
> You would have to do the same.
>
> You can disregard any part of any sourcebook _or_ novel you want. However,
> yes, if you do, you'll have to think up an alternative. But that's probably
> why you did disregard it, you knew a better alternative. If not, be happy
> they provided you with one.
>
> VrGr David


The problem is alternate universe campaigns (campaigns in which the SR
universe of the GM is different from the SR universe of FASA --like saying
the SCIRE is really controlled by Horrors and not Deus) aren't very popular
with players or GMs. It's better if you can actually use the sourcebooks
FASA puts out and create your own answers to the mysteries, than having to
take the writers' ideas for each plot hook answer. Sure, you can say the
novels don't count as canon, but then you end up diverging from the SR
universe again and going alternate.





-Twist
Message no. 17
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:38:42 +0200
>Sure, you can say the
>novels don't count as canon, but then you end up diverging from the SR
>universe again and going alternate.

OK, but my point was, that everyone has a moment that he wants to disregard
something. But the original poster (forgot who it was, have already dumped
the mail) stated as if this would only be the case with novels, while I
stated that it could also be with a sourcebook. So the major plotlines
shouldn't be revealed in sourcebooks because if you want to disregard or
just don't like them, they are putting you in a dilemma (if I use this
plothook, I have to use the whole book)?
Because he said so about the novels.

You make a choice: or you play in your own universe, and disregard what you
want, be it (part of) a sourcebook or a novel. Or you play in the "canon"
universe, and use all the material they give you, wether you like it or
not, wether it comes from a novel or a sourcebook.

Even if they ditch the novels, there will be moments that you'll think
"ooooh, I'd rather they hadn't done that...."

VrGr David

"Shapes of angels the night casts lie dead but dreaming in my past and
they're here, they want to meet you, they want to play with you, so take
the dream."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "Sumerland (what dreams may come)")
Message no. 18
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:32:38 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/99 8:36:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jarmokaronen@***.fi writes:

> Leave the sourcebooks to the players. That doesn't
> mean
> >you can't use the SR personalities, just don't take our plot hooks.
>
> Why?


Because they are for the RPG, not for the novels. The writers should be
coming up with their own stuff.

>Don't make
>your character a superhero.

>What's wrong with superheroes? :)

This isn't Marvel Superheroes. Having them in Shadowrun is mocking the
realism of the game.

>Make them feel pain, and make them lose almost
>as often as they win. Make the victories small, and make them hard
fought.

>I think that most of the time Dragonheart Series followed these rules.
>Ryan Mercury had weaknesses and his victories were hard fought. Of
>course he managed to do some things easily. If he hadn't, it would have
>been unrealistic. After all, he was a high-level character with curtain
>skills...


Ryan Mercury was a bland, cardboard character. Even in his sex scenes he was
uninteresting precisely because he had virtually no emotion. He was as
passionate as a technical manual.


>Don't make the ultra-secret Aztechnology dela clinic guarded by three
guys
>with baseball bats (pretty much, compared to what was stored there).

>The extraction from the delta clinic just wasn't the biggest things in
>the Series. Why make the opposition damn hard if there were bigger
>battles and plot twists in store?


Because it was silly that such a high powered facility was so pathetically
guarded. Try explaining to the Shadowrun world that the delta clinic was
weakly defended because there were bigger plots later on in the novel series
and so you can just blow off the beginning. Wave goodbye to realism in the
trilogy and set the tone for a disappointing story to follow.


>Try and
>eliminate the gratuitous sex scenes, or just suggest them (see 2XS and
>Night's Pawn).

>I actually enjoyed them... I think that they were written with quite a
>good taste.

There was no point for them. The sex scenes are a poor replacement for
characterizing the love between two characters (Daviar and Ryan). They had
no sparks between them in dialogue or narration, but they slept together more
than once so there must be love there. Uh-huh.


>I really can't see your problem. How come novels foil gamemaster plots?
>You can simply ignore what's written in a novel. If it is a problem,
>it's because you made it.

Novels that use sourcebook plot hooks intended for the GMs foil the
adventures those GMs have made. The whole point of the sourcebooks is to
provide material for our games, not to replace a writer's creativity. The
novelists should be coming up with their own ideas. If you avoid the novels,
you diverge into alternate campaign universes which players don't like
because they feel it's false and they are out of the FASA SR loop and GMs
don't like because they are hamstringed into rewriting history continually
not to mention the dreaded "That's not the way it happened" coming from
players.

>To continue with this, I don't see novels telling the same plots as
>sourcebooks. How can you say that?

So far I've had adventures concerning the Deep Resonance, Dunk's
assassination, the Crash of '29, the Ordo Maximus and Martin DeVries, and the
Corp War ruined because of the SR novels telling the stories the sourcebooks
set up. That's how I can say that.


>Sourcebook suggest many things, and novels pick one. That doesn't mean
>_you_ have to pick the same one as the novel. It's there for the folks
>who like to see the plotline resolved for them or shown how it can be
>resolved.

Shadowrun is still a game, a game given to us in the sourcebooks for GMs to
develop. Having the novel writers plug in the answers to those questions
isn't their job. They are supposed to be telling interesting stories set in
the Shadowrun universe, not stories using the sourcebooks as crutches for
creativity. Something like Headhunters is a great example of a novel which
uses sourcebook threads without taking any of the GM's plot hooks in those
books. I may not have liked all of Odom's characters, but at least he
understands characterization, realistic action, and how to keep the game and
the novels seperate.

>I don't actually see Shadowrun novels as real literature or
>novels; they are different kind of sourcebooks and usually far more
>entertaining than the actual sourcebooks...

The Shadowrun novels are real literature. At least eight of them are some of
the best novels I have ever read. It's bad stories and weak writing which
make them stale sourcebook rip-offs and spoil the fun of the GM. All that in
the past and unable to be changed, I look towards the SR novel future (bleak
as ROC is making it) and even Jak Koke's new novel with optimism that
feedback from disappointed players will point the way around these problems
and make the novels fun for everyone.

I'm not saying you have to dislike the DHS, but this is where those of us who
didn't like it are coming from.




-Twist
Lifetime Member of the I WANT MY JOSIE CRUISE NOVEL Crusade
Message no. 19
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:48:09 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/99 12:34:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl writes:

> Even if they ditch the novels, there will be moments that you'll think
> "ooooh, I'd rather they hadn't done that...."
>
> VrGr David


I don't want ROC or FASA to ever ditch the SR novels. I would just like to
read stories about shadowrunners in the novels, and game threads in the
sourcebooks with the two never interfering. You can have NPCs from novels in
the Shadowland posts (like Dodger or Red Wraith) since they logically inhabit
the SR world. I'd also like to see technology not described in the
sourcebooks turn up in the SR novels, since there must be whole worlds of
tech out there that the sourcebooks don't cover because they aren't inclined
towards the samurai/decker/rigger archtypes. Also having the cyberware and
other gear provide interesting realworld effects instead of the strict game
effects would be nice. I look back fondly on the line in Shadowplay where
Findley describes the taste a slap patch gives you of olives in your mouth as
it administers medicine and how you come to loathe the taste. That's detail
I would like to see more of.

Personally (ignore the AI behind the curtain), I think SR has some of the
best novelists they've ever had right now with Kenson, Smedman, and Odom (and
maybe Szeto if ROC ever gets its act together). It's the direction of the
novels that needs attention, not the skill of their writers. (I don't
include Koke in this not to flame him, but only because I honestly haven't
liked his novels thus far. I don't count him out though, especially if he
writes another book with Jonathon Bond. The writing on TTE went up a notch,
even if I didn't like the plot because it stepped on the toes of the
sourcebook GM threads again.)






-Twist
Lifetime Member of the I WANT MY JOSIE CRUISE NOVEL Crusade
Message no. 20
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:07:01 +0200
>So far I've had adventures concerning the Deep Resonance, Dunk's
>assassination, the Crash of '29, the Ordo Maximus and Martin DeVries, and
the
>Corp War ruined because of the SR novels telling the stories the sourcebooks
>set up. That's how I can say that.

But if the same outcome had been put in a sourcebook, those adventures
would have been ruined too, wouldn't they? The _resolve_ of Bug City was
placed in a sourcebook, but could have been very different from yours. Hey,
maybe in your campaign you were going to let someone else win the election.
A _sourcebook_ told you who won (and was killed). If there had been no book
(sourcebook or novel) which had told us who had killed Dunkie, most people
would have been dissappointed. "Hey, it was a cool idea, but FASA wasn't
creative enough to surprise us with a good solution, so they just left it
hanging with that always easy reply: 'We decided to let everyone decide for
themselves what happened'".

VrGr David

"Shapes of angels the night casts lie dead but dreaming in my past and
they're here, they want to meet you, they want to play with you, so take
the dream."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "Sumerland (what dreams may come)")
Message no. 21
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:59:00 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/99 11:56:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> Yeah. Don't read the books. Get someone who has (and there are
> plenty of listmembers who have) to explain the plots to you, and how
> they relate to the sourcebooks. Then you won't have to read the
> "intolerable" work, but you'll still get the info that relates to the
> events in the Shadowrun world.
>
> -Murder of One
>


There is a guy already who has been going through each novel and pulling out
the relevant sentences and items and people and events so they can be matched
to
the sourcebooks. Here's the site he posts them to:
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com:/masn/shadowrun.html">Shadowrun
Reviews</A>

So far he's up to Streets of Blood. You can send Thank You notes to
Masn@***.com, and trust me he deserves them.




-Twist
Message no. 22
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:23:37 EDT
In a message dated 7/15/1999 9:02:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
JonSzeto@***.com writes:

>
> So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels should
> play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
>
> Jak Koke
> http://www.koke.org/jak/
>
Jak, just keep right on going the way you were. I have heard many of the
complaints, and while I admit to not reading everything there is out there
game-related or otherwise, it is good to see other people's ides' about what
"Shadowrun" is all about.

-K
Message no. 23
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:03:17 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/1999 7:36:42 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
jarmokaronen@***.fi writes:

>
> On the sidenote I have to say that I really loved the way Tom Dowd set
> the Bug City with Burning Bright. I would like to see something similar
> done again. And I think that it might be the best way to introduce big
> plots in novels without upsetting gamers like Twist while at the same
> time keeping us -the big plot lovers- happy.

Just to point something out here...DOWD didn't do that one...Nigel was the
bigger driving force behind most of that ...

-K
Message no. 24
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:14:28 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/1999 9:01:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
number_10_ox@**********.com writes:

> Novels foil gamemaster plots -- at least *for me* -- because of two
> reasons.
>
> (a) No matter how badly written a novel is, there is going to be
> *something* in it I would want to steal, and keeping what I want to steal
> separate from what I'm saying never happened is a hard task for me.

No way. It's called Inspiration. Draw from it directly, and invent the rest
for the enjoyment of yourself and your own gamers.

> (b) The novels and the sourcebooks cross-reference each other. So
> let's say I hated the book about Lowfyr and Kham the Ork. I want to say it
> never happened. Now I have to figure out what -- in my game -- is so
> f**ing special about Glasgian Oakforest, and why is he hanging around with
> Urdli as
> mentioned in _Tir Tairngire_. Overall, more work for me.

You want to know the reason he's so damndably special? Because he's Aithne's
son, and that's that. The "new" generation of Immortal Elves...continuation
of the line. Come on, that is NOT difficult. Urdli was merely a
self-centered egotist on a magical power trip, boosted by a bunch of
self-imposed, idealized, morals and ethics that were all his. Notice the
hypocrisy of Urdli in other works ("...this one is still functional...")

> (BTW, I strongly advise any other GM on the list to do as I did, and
> tell their players which sourcebooks and novels they can -- or cannot --
> read. My PC's are still wracking their brains over the odd things a man
they
> met in passing said and did -- a man named "Mr. Enterich" :>).

I just put a post up about "We" and "I" values...try reading it,
taking your
time doing so, and then rereading your posting here...

-K (who's biggest reason for posting stuff like HHH (and reading stuff like
Plastic Warriors and the Archive) is for *others* to draw inspiration from
and further THEIR own enjoyment...*I* get enjoyment by *hoping* to enrich the
lives of *OTHERS*. Patrick could probably give you a quote of mine
concerning my desire to ensure the entertainment for others...)
Message no. 25
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:32:19 CST
>From: Ereskanti@***.com
>Just to point something out here...DOWD didn't do that one...Nigel was the
>bigger driving force behind most of that ...

True, but Dowd DID write the novel. :)
>
>-K
>


Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 26
From: Michael & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@*****.msn.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 20:36:04 -0400
Nightshade commented:
>I'm suprised that Mike Frankl hasn't posted on this yet, but
>then again, I'm off work today and at home, and he's not. The
>reason I say that, is he, as our GM, took us through the whole
>Dragon Heart Saga after he'd read it. Of course things were
>changed some. Matter o' fact, I'm gonna' add some spoiler
>space here peoples.

Actually I sent my comments directly to Jak Koke as I thought the heat was
coming down pretty heavy on the list. I really did like the Dragon Heart
Saga. It was nice to have someone who actually qualified as a hero instead
of a slimeball. Big "D" was in it for all of the SR people not just himself.
How many of our PC's can say the same?

;)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 27
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 23:18:52 -0400
Quindrael wrote:

> >Sure, you can say the
> >novels don't count as canon, but then you end up diverging from the SR
> >universe again and going alternate.
>
> OK, but my point was, that everyone has a moment that he wants to disregard
> something. But the original poster (forgot who it was, have already dumped
> the mail) stated as if this would only be the case with novels, while I
> stated that it could also be with a sourcebook. So the major plotlines
> shouldn't be revealed in sourcebooks because if you want to disregard or
> just don't like them, they are putting you in a dilemma (if I use this
> plothook, I have to use the whole book)?
> Because he said so about the novels.
>
> You make a choice: or you play in your own universe, and disregard what you
> want, be it (part of) a sourcebook or a novel. Or you play in the "canon"
> universe, and use all the material they give you, wether you like it or
> not, wether it comes from a novel or a sourcebook.
>
> Even if they ditch the novels, there will be moments that you'll think
> "ooooh, I'd rather they hadn't done that...."
>

Personally, I kinda like finding stuff like that out. When I first heard
that Dunklezhan (sp?) was assassinated, I thought "and WHAT kind of magical
drek was flying there? Something that can kill a DRAGON? I NEED that for my
game". Having the answer was kinda good for me. Maybe if they did the novels
answering questions from a few game years earlier (or just have a blurb in the
front of the book saying "more information about 'blah blah blah' can be found
in the novel 'X'") would that work for you? I don't know, but I'd kinda like a
smidgen of info about what's going on outside of my own game (where the rest of
the world doesn't exist for the characters, until Dave decides he wants to send
us on a jaunt to Amazonia, or Guam, or Australia, or wherever). That's what the
novels should do. And, IMO, having the big arcs covered in a novel, where you
can get the nitty-gritty details, is better than a sourcebook. If next year
FASA decides it wants to eliminate Z-O and have it crash, wouldn't you rather
read about the team stealing aboard and sending it on the crash-course with
Earth than just have in a sourcebook (or an adventure) "Z-O crashed. Someone
piloted it into the atmosphere"?!? I know I would.

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+
M-
Message no. 28
From: Jarmo Karonen jarmo.karonen@***.fi
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:31:31 +0300
Twist wrote:

>Novels that use sourcebook plot hooks intended for the GMs foil the
>adventures those GMs have made. The whole point of the sourcebooks is
to
>provide material for our games, not to replace a writer's creativity.
The
>novelists should be coming up with their own ideas. If you avoid the
novels,
>you diverge into alternate campaign universes which players don't like
>because they feel it's false and they are out of the FASA SR loop and
GMs
>don't like because they are hamstringed into rewriting history
continually
>not to mention the dreaded "That's not the way it happened" coming from
>players.

Ok, now I'm beginning (slow that I am) to see your problem. Basically
the problem is that your players know too much, and if you present
something differently than was done in some novel, you get an argument
from your players. Right?

I believe it was Bull who offered a simple solution: just clear
everything before giving it to players. If you want to do something
differently than in the novel, don't let your players read that novel.
If your players have a problem with this, then you really should
consider finding a new player group...

I haven't had this problem ever. My players simply aren't interested in
reading sourcebooks or novels, and that makes my plot altering a great
deal easier. Well honestly, of course a player, whose character is a
mage, has read rules from SRII (that's what we're still playing with)
and Grimoire, but that's about it.

>So far I've had adventures concerning the Deep Resonance, Dunk's
>assassination, the Crash of '29, the Ordo Maximus and Martin DeVries,
and the
>Corp War ruined because of the SR novels telling the stories the
sourcebooks
>set up. That's how I can say that.

Again, now I have to bring up a question that Quindrael has brought up:
don't you ever then have a problem with sourcebook telling your story?

I mean that for me there's a lot of things I want to change in
Dunkelzahn assasination (I'm thinking about putting my player characters
to kill him. They do it before they actually understand what they have
done... <EGMG>) and in other plots too.

- J. Karonen
Message no. 29
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:43:52 -0500
/From jak@****.org Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:04:51 -0700
/Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:04:51 -0700
/From: Jak Koke jak@****.org
/Subject: role of novels in SR universe
/
/Wow, I've been getting a lot of heat on the list (with some exceptions) for
/the fact that the Dragon Heart Saga revealed or touched on the larger plots
/in the SR Universe and thus shut out players from participating. So I'd like
/to get some feedback since I'm in the process of writing another novel right
/now.

Something to keep in mind - People who like something rarely say so.
People who hate something and will never use it again rarely complain. The
people who do complain will usuall continue to use whatever it is they are
complaining about.

I.e., your books are selling, FASA still wants your stuff, you're doing a
good job :)

On the other hand, always give a critic a fair shake.

-Graht
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+b++ DI++++
D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++
http://home.att.net/~Graht
"The battles that count aren't the ones for gold medals.
The struggles within yourself; the invisible, inevitable
battles inside all of us; that's where it's at."
-Jesse Owens
Message no. 30
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:45:14 -0700
At 07:43 PM 7/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>Something to keep in mind - People who like something rarely say so.
>People who hate something and will never use it again rarely complain. The
>people who do complain will usuall continue to use whatever it is they are
>complaining about.
>


True, in in order to be the exception to the rule, I will say that I liked
the DH series.

::smile::

Dave
Message no. 31
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 22:07:12 EDT
In a message dated 7/17/99 9:43:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net writes:

> On the other hand, always give a critic a fair shake.
>
credit to Jak Koke (even if he never gets the email due to whatever problem
<trace and burn?> he is having with list-ware)
He has responded each time a subject like this came up, with a very good
attitude. Much to his credit (especially considering how some of the emails
are phrased :-)
Construcive, to say the least IMO.
mind you, you didn't criticize such, I'm just using your email to say
something :-)
Message no. 32
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 07:24:07 EDT
In a message dated 7/25/99 7:00:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

> These two were both great situations and good examples. I do not mind the
> Dragon Heart trilogy, and I liked parts of it as reading. (Of course,
Twist
> may deduct karma for me saying that, but hey, its my opipion :-)
> I like novels to either be self-contained small plots (or off center
stuff,
>
> such as Crossroads) or to open up the possibilities and then leave it
there
> (like Burning Bright, teh best example of it)
> Powerlevel wise-I wish some of hte novels had PCs straight out of the
> character creation rules. Heck, I want the stats at the end of the novel
> with
> the break-down for priorities :-)
> I think that was it :-)
>


No Karma deduction for you. I'll just have you face ::gag:: Ryan Mercury.
See how much fun a damn superhero with no emotions is then.

And, hey, I'd like the stats and the break-down for priorities too!!


-Twist
Message no. 33
From: Logan Graves logan1@*****.intercom.net
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 09:31:04 -0400
In our last episode, Schizi wrote:
>
<snip>
> Powerlevel wise-I wish some of hte novels had PCs straight out of the
> character creation rules. Heck, I want the stats at the end of the novel with
> the break-down for priorities :-)
> I think that was it :-)

<Plug type=shameless src=BKK>

Then you should read my "Tales From the Klub."
They _are_ about actual PC's, whose stats can be found elsewhere on the site:

http://BigKnobiKlub.virtualAve.net/tales.htm

</Plug>

--Fenris (did I mention, they've been twice refused by FASA? ;-)

______________________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Six decades old, and I have to put up with
toddlers. I wrote this one myself, whelp.
(>) FastJack
Message no. 34
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:26:07 EDT
In a message dated 7/25/99 9:17:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl writes:

> >So far I've had adventures concerning the Deep Resonance, Dunk's
> >assassination, the Crash of '29, the Ordo Maximus and Martin DeVries, and
> the
> >Corp War ruined because of the SR novels telling the stories the
> sourcebooks
> >set up. That's how I can say that.
>
> But if the same outcome had been put in a sourcebook, those adventures
> would have been ruined too, wouldn't they? The _resolve_ of Bug City was
> placed in a sourcebook, but could have been very different from yours. Hey,
> maybe in your campaign you were going to let someone else win the election.
> A _sourcebook_ told you who won (and was killed). If there had been no book
> (sourcebook or novel) which had told us who had killed Dunkie, most people
> would have been dissappointed. "Hey, it was a cool idea, but FASA wasn't
> creative enough to surprise us with a good solution, so they just left it
> hanging with that always easy reply: 'We decided to let everyone decide for
> themselves what happened'".
>
> VrGr David


My whole point was that I only want the sourcebooks to give us the game
information. When you have it in a sourcebook, like PoaD, you can make up
any reason you want for the assassination. In a novel, you're handed the
plain, dull facts. The sourcebooks should be advancing the plots of
Shadowrun, not the novels, since the sourcebooks specifically are left with
plot hooks and threads that the GM can weave his players through. The novels
that take from sourcebooks (DHS, Terminus Experiment, Psychotrope) directly
close GM options by forcing an absolute version of events.

Like most GMs I know, I set my timeline to always have a year lag with the
FASA year to be able to run a historically accurate campaign (to incorporate
stuff like the Bug City solution, RA:Shutdown, and PoaD). The problem is
that after those sourcebooks are released, and you merge them with your
campaign, some damn novel comes along taking the ideas that were meant for
the GMs and the players because the writer didn't come up with his own stuff.


Which, yet again, is the reason I say that if you absolutely must release a
novel that tells the story behind a sourcebook, at least release it at the
same fraggin' time. And if that's too difficult, then come up with your own
plots and leave the sourcebooks alone. The novels only exist to serve the
game, and when they get in the way there is no more use for them. Newer
books, RHDF and Forever Drug and Crossroads are at least back in the
tradition of providing stories in the Shadowrun universe. If this trend
continues (hopefully with the Josie Cruise novel), everything should be fine.
If FASA and ROC decide to put out a novel that stitches up the solution to
RA:Shutdown, we'll be right back where we started with yet another DOA novel
and a fresh corpse of an interesting adventure setting in its wake.



-Twist
"Soylent Green is people."
Message no. 35
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:15:33 -0500
> -K (who's biggest reason for posting stuff like HHH (and reading stuff
> like Plastic Warriors and the Archive) is for *others* to draw inspiration
> from and further THEIR own enjoyment...*I* get enjoyment by *hoping* to
> enrich the lives of *OTHERS*. Patrick could probably give you a quote of
> mine concerning my desire to ensure the entertainment for others...)

Well, he could if he could remember the wording. He remembers the
sentiment, however.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Jak Koke E-Mail (Concerning the SR Novels), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!