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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM>
Subject: Japanese vs. Chinese
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:16:39 PST
Konichi-wa folks, something new from Ronin.
First, are there any subscribers to the list that are Chinese or
Japanese? If there are, are you as tired as I am of Americans confusing
the hell out of the two. Or, just as bad, totally butchering the
historical facts of either? If I see one more web page that has "Ninja"
and "Katana" in the same sentence I'm going to scream. Or better
yet......"Ninja" and "Sai". A Sai is a Chinese weapon.....the Ninja
are
JAPANESE! I'm well aware that not everyone has a degree in Far East
studies, but it would be nice for people to do a little research before
posting anyting to the web regarding things specifically Chinese or
Japanese. Imagine if someone Japanese would say, "Texan,
Mexican.....same thing." He'd probably better not be anywhere near
Texas when he does...otherwise his life expectancy would be dramatically
shortened. Oh, and please don't go by what you see on the movies. The
American media is infamous for screwing up the distinctions between the
two.

Well...if I offended anyone, you have my sincerest apologies. I just
needed to vent this little tidbit. And, it does have a little to do
with Shadowrun. What do you think should happen if a PC accuses a group
of Triads of being "damn slanty-eyed japs." Not a good thing for the
PC.

"Mai mentsu konna mai kikyo."

-Ronin




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Message no. 2
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Japanese vs. Chinese
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:25:01 -0500
<SNIP Rant>
You hit the nail on the head. Easily for the last ten years, the
media has been butchering the concept of ninja, japanese and
chinese legend and history, etc. Most people go by the media.
Still in this one particular case, you also have to remember how
much cross-seeding between Japanese and Chinese there is,
beggining with the written language etc. I'm far from an expert
(although I did take my share of classes in college, and consider
oriental studies a hobby). This is just my two cents.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 3
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@****.SPYDERNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Japanese vs. Chinese
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:41:44 -0800
On Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:16:39 PST, One Ronin wrote:

>What do you think should happen if a PC accuses a group
>of Triads of being "damn slanty-eyed japs." Not a good thing for the
>PC.

Of course, I wouldn't expect a Yakuzza to respond quietly to that kind of comment either.
Message no. 4
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese vs. Chinese
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:51:34 -0500
At 01:16 PM 1/8/99 PST, One Ronin wrote:
>Konichi-wa folks, something new from Ronin.
>First, are there any subscribers to the list that are Chinese or
>Japanese? If there are, are you as tired as I am of Americans confusing
>the hell out of the two. Or, just as bad, totally butchering the
>historical facts of either? If I see one more web page that has "Ninja"
>and "Katana" in the same sentence I'm going to scream. Or better
>yet......"Ninja" and "Sai". A Sai is a Chinese weapon.....the
Ninja are
>JAPANESE! I'm well aware that not everyone has a degree in Far East
>studies, but it would be nice for people to do a little research before
>posting anyting to the web regarding things specifically Chinese or
>Japanese. Imagine if someone Japanese would say, "Texan,
>Mexican.....same thing." He'd probably better not be anywhere near
>Texas when he does...otherwise his life expectancy would be dramatically
>shortened. Oh, and please don't go by what you see on the movies. The
>American media is infamous for screwing up the distinctions between the
>two.
>
>Well...if I offended anyone, you have my sincerest apologies. I just
>needed to vent this little tidbit. And, it does have a little to do
>with Shadowrun. What do you think should happen if a PC accuses a group
>of Triads of being "damn slanty-eyed japs." Not a good thing for the
>PC.
>

Understandable...Many people DO rely soley on the popular media for
information on these topics and end making those types of mistakes. I've
seen a player make basically the same mistake you describe above and he had
no clue why the Triad member reacted poorly until the other player
explained slowly to him why his character should probably avoid Chinatown
for a while.

With the cultural bleed over between the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and so
it can be pretty easy even for someone who does try to research the
material to get it mixed up. For example, you mention the Sai being a
Chinese weapon while just about all of my admitably casual reading has
indicated that it originates from Okinawa...an island heavily influenced by
BOTH China AND Japan.

-- Blair


------
Blair A. Monroe Phone: (850) 644-8114
Web Systems Administrator / Sr. Web Developer Fax: (850) 644-6253
School of Information Studies E-mail: bmonroe@******.fsu.edu
Florida State University
101 Louis Shores Bldg.
Tallahassee, FL. 32306 http://www.fsu.edu/~lis
Message no. 5
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Japanese vs. Chinese
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:26:52 +1000
So ninjas don't disappear in a puff of purple smoke when they're killed?
Can't jump backwards up into 4m tall trees? Throw two dozen shuriken
before you can blink? Damn... there goes my campaign... ( =}

(>)ARKHAM
"Pop-quiz hotshot: Five hundred Storm Troopers on jetpacks fly down from
the hole in the ceiling. What do you do? WHAT DO YOU DO?!?!"
Message no. 6
From: Blackadder <blkadder@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Japanese vs. Chinese
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:47:55 -0500
-----Original Message----

|So ninjas don't disappear in a puff of purple smoke when they're
killed?
|Can't jump backwards up into 4m tall trees? Throw two dozen shuriken
|before you can blink? Damn... there goes my campaign... ( =}





-----Blackaader Adds-----

No, but they do have cyberclaws, concealable rotary macine guns,
and hide switchblades in their ribs ;-}
[Catch the Japanese movie Zipang if you can. It's hilarious!
Message no. 7
From: Wyrmy <elfman@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Japanese vs. Chinese
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:58:10 -0600
One Ronin wrote:
>
> Konichi-wa folks, something new from Ronin.
> First, are there any subscribers to the list that are Chinese or
> Japanese? If there are, are you as tired as I am of Americans confusing
> the hell out of the two. Or, just as bad, totally butchering the
> historical facts of either? If I see one more web page that has "Ninja"
> and "Katana" in the same sentence I'm going to scream. Or better
> yet......"Ninja" and "Sai". A Sai is a Chinese weapon.....the
Ninja are
> JAPANESE! I'm well aware that not everyone has a degree in Far East
> studies, but it would be nice for people to do a little research before
> posting anyting to the web regarding things specifically Chinese or
> Japanese. Imagine if someone Japanese would say, "Texan,
> Mexican.....same thing." He'd probably better not be anywhere near
> Texas when he does...otherwise his life expectancy would be dramatically
> shortened. Oh, and please don't go by what you see on the movies. The
> American media is infamous for screwing up the distinctions between the
> two.
>
> Well...if I offended anyone, you have my sincerest apologies. I just
> needed to vent this little tidbit. And, it does have a little to do
> with Shadowrun. What do you think should happen if a PC accuses a group
> of Triads of being "damn slanty-eyed japs." Not a good thing for the
> PC.
>
> "Mai mentsu konna mai kikyo."
>
I know this isn't the question you wanted to hear, but, Does that
ORIENTAL phrase above mean: "I'm going to kick your ass?":^) (Sorry, I'm
taking French, not Oriental languages) (Please don't get offended and
attack me with your chinese katana,which I have one of, or sick some
japanese Ninj(i?as?), which I have a lot of respect for, after my sorry
hide:^)


--
-W in the light
----------------------------------------------------------
Wyrmy: Wyrm druid, Scholar, Pokemon trainer extroidenaire.
Famous Quote: "Pikachu? What Pikachu?" BZRAK "Oh,(cough), THAT
Pikachu!"
Message no. 8
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Japanese vs. Chinese
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:48:32 -0600
> First, are there any subscribers to the list that are Chinese or
> Japanese?

Well, not I, but...

> If there are, are you as tired as I am of Americans confusing
> the hell out of the two.

Maybe that's true in cartoony type stuff, or Americanized versions of
martial arts flicks, but..

> Or, just as bad, totally butchering the
> historical facts of either?

Maybe I just don't see it as much. Probably because most of my 'pop
cultural' influences on Asian cultures are things like "Shogun" by James
Clavell (originally from the mini-series with Richard Chamberlain, but I
recently finished reading the novel) or Kurasawa (sp?) flicks...or Hong Kong
action flicks. Or maybe the RPG influences like "Oriental Adventures" for
AD&D (and I make NO claims as to it's accuracy...but based on my uninformed,
cursory reading of it, I didn't notice too many glaring mistakes).

Please also remember that I DID say that these are *pop cultural*
examples...I'm not saying they're /right/, just that they appear more
/right/ than other things.

> If I see one more web page that has "Ninja"
> and "Katana" in the same sentence I'm going to scream. Or better
> yet......"Ninja" and "Sai". A Sai is a Chinese weapon.....the
Ninja are
> JAPANESE!

Well, I know the difference, and I'd imagine that most of my friends who
have any kind of interest in Asian cultures also know the difference. I'd
also imagine that most of those web pages that you are going to and seeing
this are pages that are done by 13-year-olds (er...lemme rephrase
that...'those who are immature...regardless of age').

> I'm well aware that not everyone has a degree in Far East
> studies, but it would be nice for people to do a little research before
> posting anyting to the web regarding things specifically Chinese or
> Japanese. Imagine if someone Japanese would say, "Texan,
> Mexican.....same thing." He'd probably better not be anywhere near
> Texas when he does...otherwise his life expectancy would be dramatically
> shortened. Oh, and please don't go by what you see on the movies. The
> American media is infamous for screwing up the distinctions between the
> two.

Maybe so...but I think you'd find most more reputable media outlets are
going to be much more intelligent than that. I mean hell...American media
has international reporters. Many of which are recruited from among the
native populous (personally, I'd enjoy seeing a more diverse spectrum of
individuals for the 'faces' that present the news on a daily basis to our
backwards and close-minded populous).

....Many of which live in Texas. <snicker> (Please people...I'm JOKING).

> Well...if I offended anyone, you have my sincerest apologies. I just
> needed to vent this little tidbit.

Understandable, really. I may have done the same thing if I had seen the
pages you are referring to.

> And, it does have a little to do
> with Shadowrun. What do you think should happen if a PC accuses a group
> of Triads of being "damn slanty-eyed japs." Not a good thing for the
> PC.

On occasion, I do correct some people on their racial slurs, but usually
only when I think there is a potential for change (or they just don't
understand the offensiveness of their statements).


-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 9
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Japanese vs. Chinese
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 00:51:32 -0600
One Ronin wrote:
>
> Konichi-wa folks, something new from Ronin.
> First, are there any subscribers to the list that are Chinese or
> Japanese? If there are, are you as tired as I am of Americans confusing
> the hell out of the two. Or, just as bad, totally butchering the
> historical facts of either?


Our lovely American media filling the sheep with the wrong information
yet again. Gotta love them...


> If I see one more web page that has "Ninja"
> and "Katana" in the same sentence I'm going to scream.


One of my beefs is the labeling of every Oriental sword as a 'katana'.
Guess what? Shadowrun pretty much does this too. Each different culture
in Asia has its own 'sword'. Japan has at least four that I know of
offhand - the Katana, the Wakazashi, the Ninjato, and the No-Dachi. (I
hope I spelled these right...wanna correct me One Ronin?)


> Or better
> yet......"Ninja" and "Sai". A Sai is a Chinese weapon.....the
Ninja are
> JAPANESE! I'm well aware that not everyone has a degree in Far East
> studies, but it would be nice for people to do a little research before
> posting anyting to the web regarding things specifically Chinese or
> Japanese.


Yep. I've seen Japanese characters in Champions carrying around sai too,
so once again, it isn't unique to what you are describing.


> Imagine if someone Japanese would say, "Texan,
> Mexican.....same thing." He'd probably better not be anywhere near
> Texas when he does...otherwise his life expectancy would be dramatically
> shortened.


Or worse, say that in Mexico City.


> Oh, and please don't go by what you see on the movies. The
> American media is infamous for screwing up the distinctions between the
> two.


Some of the movies I've seen coming out of Hong Kong haven't been much
better, honestly. Matter of fact, Yakuza in Japan go to the movies to
laugh at the way they are portrayed. Many of the Italian Mafia in the
United States think similarly about the Godfather trilogy.


>
> Well...if I offended anyone, you have my sincerest apologies. I just
> needed to vent this little tidbit. And, it does have a little to do
> with Shadowrun. What do you think should happen if a PC accuses a group
> of Triads of being "damn slanty-eyed japs." Not a good thing for the
> PC.
>

I have been acquiring many books, resources, etc. on all types of
organized crime. At the miminum, such an insult as calling a Triad
member a Japanese, or calling a Yakuza member a Korean or Chinese, would
be the elimination of any contacts of that organization, until major
restitution is made. That character would also become a target of
harassment, and in SR times, that can be pretty nasty.

--David

ps. Say Ronin, what is your opinion of the term 'Street Samurai' being
applied to so many characters who do not follow the code of Bushido?
Message no. 10
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Japanese vs. Chinese
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:44:14 -0500
David Lightfinger wrote:
> > If I see one more web page that has "Ninja"
> > and "Katana" in the same sentence I'm going to scream.
>
> One of my beefs is the labeling of every Oriental sword as a 'katana'.
> Guess what? Shadowrun pretty much does this too. Each different culture
> in Asia has its own 'sword'. Japan has at least four that I know of
> offhand - the Katana, the Wakazashi, the Ninjato, and the No-Dachi. (I
> hope I spelled these right...wanna correct me One Ronin?)
>
Well, I'm not One Ronin, but I've studied a bit of japanese... Looks
good from here - apart from obvious stuff, there's no one right way to
spell japanese words in roman characters (romanji) - there are several
"accepted" transliterations. Thus, most of the subtle "mistakes"
*could* just be blamed on using a different transliteration than the
reader is used to... :-)

Oiaste-sensei ;-)

Further Reading

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!