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Message no. 1
From: Dark Poet <rivenmysts@*******.COM>
Subject: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 04:11:21 PST
Hi.

Just a few questions and I'll be on my merry way to destroy something in
some amusing way.

First off is there any source book that detail heavy military grade
weapons...I dont mean the stuff in FoF, I'm talking the puppies that a
tank would pack.

And secondly, are there any sources for non awakened critters such as
large cats and non magical bears? Kinda hoping to find some stats to
base a nasty idea on....the CyberBear....hehehe.....600lbs of chromed
furry fun!

Lastly...the rescent HMHVV debate got me wondering....wouldnt it be keen
if fasa decided to release a small source book with all know mutations
and such of this lil bugger?

Anyhoo thanks for the answers.

-DarkPoet, Bard of the Ashes

"Suceed, Fail, niether matter....as long as there is try."

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Message no. 2
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:49:46 -0500
At 04:11 AM 12/21/98 PST, you wrote:
>And secondly, are there any sources for non awakened critters such as
>large cats and non magical bears? Kinda hoping to find some stats to
>base a nasty idea on....the CyberBear....hehehe.....600lbs of chromed
>furry fun!

Didn't Stephen King do something like that in _Wastelands_? :)

If you mean SR3, the critter stuff is in the pamphlet that comes with the
GM screen. It even has some interesting rules for creating mutant non-para
critters (such as from lots of polutions and stuff).

>-DarkPoet, Bard of the Ashes


(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-
Message no. 3
From: Ulrich Haupt <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:39:33 +0100
Dark Poet wrote:
> First off is there any source book that detail heavy military grade
> weapons...I dont mean the stuff in FoF, I'm talking the puppies that a
> tank would pack.
Not in an official source book, AFAIK.

> And secondly, are there any sources for non awakened critters such as
> large cats and non magical bears? Kinda hoping to find some stats to
> base a nasty idea on....the CyberBear....hehehe.....600lbs of chromed
> furry fun!
This is covered in the game master screen for the third
edition. There are also
stats in the SR2 rule book if you can have a look at one.

> Lastly...the rescent HMHVV debate got me wondering....wouldnt it be keen
> if fasa decided to release a small source book with all know mutations
> and such of this lil bugger?
It seems that FASA tends to give local information around a
place or setting
so there are only information about critters of the place
which are important.
I don't know if there are enough critters with new
information to fill a book.
Paranormal Animals or North America / Europe contain a whole
bunch of critters
which are really funny. I think building new critters with
the information
given in published books is very easy. Use your imagination!
(and have fun)

Sandman
Message no. 4
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:49:52 PST
>First off is there any source book that detail heavy military grade
>weapons...I dont mean the stuff in FoF, I'm talking the puppies that >a
tank would pack.

IIRC, FoF has some stuff a tank would pack- at least tanks, anyway.
Outside of some of the vehicles and weapons in Rigger 2, none come to
mind.

>And secondly, are there any sources for non awakened critters such as
>large cats and non magical bears? Kinda hoping to find some stats to
>base a nasty idea on....the CyberBear....hehehe.....600lbs of chromed
>furry fun!

I don't have my copy of SR3 handy, but I think it gave stats for many
mundane critters in SR2. Also check the update section of PAoE.

>
>Lastly...the rescent HMHVV debate got me wondering....wouldnt it be
keen
>if fasa decided to release a small source book with all know mutations
>and such of this lil bugger?

Other than a short list of the critters that are made because of
HMHVV, there wouldn't be much substance to one such book. Maybe a
sourcebook that included more details about the HMHVV- in part or in
whole- and including "mo-bettah" rules for PCing characters infected
with HMHVV.


-Damon Harper
"Tell me, and I forget. Show me, and I remember.
But let me do, and I understand."
-Confucious
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>


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Message no. 5
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:40:29 -0500
At 04:11 AM 12/21/98 PST, DarkPoet wrote:
>
>First off is there any source book that detail heavy military grade
>weapons...I dont mean the stuff in FoF, I'm talking the puppies that a
>tank would pack.

No. "You're dead," is generally sufficient.

>And secondly, are there any sources for non awakened critters such as
>large cats and non magical bears? Kinda hoping to find some stats to
>base a nasty idea on....the CyberBear....hehehe.....600lbs of chromed
>furry fun!

As has been stated elsewhere, the SR3 GM's screen describes critters of all
sorts. The BBB2 has stats for normal critters in the table on p. 233,
including Bear, Large; Bear, Typical; and Cat, Wild. There's also Tiger
stats for really big cats.

>Lastly...the rescent HMHVV debate got me wondering....wouldnt it be keen
>if fasa decided to release a small source book with all know mutations
>and such of this lil bugger?

Well, since you ask, no. I very much dislike it when FASA gets too focused
on any one aspect of the SR game world. I began to despise it when you
seemingly couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting an IE/Horror/ED
reference. I really don't want to see a trend towards "Vampire: The
Shadowrun."

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:56:21 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Starjammer wrote:
/
/ I really don't want to see a trend towards "Vampire: The
/ Shadowrun."

Wouldn't that be, Shadowrun: the Vampire?

;)

(It's the holidays. It's slow. I'm posting OT dammit :)

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 7
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:39:07 -0600
:First off is there any source book that detail heavy military grade
:weapons...I dont mean the stuff in FoF, I'm talking the puppies that a
:tank would pack.

R2 has some pretty heavy stuff, and "cyberpirates" goes into "nautical
class" weapons that are things like 120 mm cannons and cruise missiles.

:And secondly, are there any sources for non awakened critters such as
:large cats and non magical bears? Kinda hoping to find some stats to
:base a nasty idea on....the CyberBear....hehehe.....600lbs of chromed
:furry fun!

SR2 had stats for normal animals.

:Lastly...the rescent HMHVV debate got me wondering....wouldnt it be keen
:if fasa decided to release a small source book with all know mutations
:and such of this lil bugger?

Or put a chapter about such in a future release, maybe as an update of the
"threats" vampire conspiracy?
Who knows, anything is possable. Yes, that would be keen.
Not having seen the new mutant critter rules, I can't say how / if they
would work on vamp type critters. However, vamp "mutants" would not be
genetic mistakes and odballs...

Mongoose
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:59:48 +0100
According to Dark Poet, at 4:11 on 21 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> First off is there any source book that detail heavy military grade
> weapons...I dont mean the stuff in FoF, I'm talking the puppies that a
> tank would pack.

The problem is that such weapons in SR tend to break down the system; the
rules are geared toward humans, and anything requiring heavier ordnance is
either too strong or not strong enough (even trolls suffer from this,
BTW).

The heaviest weapons in FASA books are in Rigger 2 and Cyberpirates, but
nothing that comes close to a tank gun. There are some naval guns in
Cyberpirates, which are probably the heaviest weapons published for SR.

> And secondly, are there any sources for non awakened critters such as
> large cats and non magical bears? Kinda hoping to find some stats to
> base a nasty idea on....the CyberBear....hehehe.....600lbs of chromed
> furry fun!

Although I still don't have it (hopefully it'll be in the mail today), I
suspect these stats will be in the critters book that comes with the SR3
GM screen. Alternatively, if you own, or know someone who owns, the second
edition main rules, there's a list of critters with what you're after in
there too.

> Lastly...the rescent HMHVV debate got me wondering....wouldnt it be keen
> if fasa decided to release a small source book with all know mutations
> and such of this lil bugger?

It might be a nice book, but I doubt it'll be worth it for FASA to publish
something like that (not cost-effective, etc.). If you want a book like
this, I guess you'll have to compile it yourself by going through the
Paranormal Animals books and digging up what you can from those...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:01:27 -0600
On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:59:48 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
<SNIP>
>The heaviest weapons in FASA books are in Rigger 2 and Cyberpirates, but
>nothing that comes close to a tank gun. There are some naval guns in
>Cyberpirates, which are probably the heaviest weapons published for SR.
<SNIP>

What about the Relampago in the Aztlan book?

Does that count as a "tank gun"?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:03:50 +0100
According to D. Ghost, at 16:01 on 22 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> What about the Relampago in the Aztlan book?
>
> Does that count as a "tank gun"?

Yep, forgot about that. Still, it has the same damage code as a heavy
autocannon so I'm not sure I'd count it as a tank gun even though it's
listed as 120 mm caliber (which would be a bit of a strange caliber for a
railgun anyway).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:27:46 -0600
:What about the Relampago in the Aztlan book?
:
:Does that count as a "tank gun"?


At 20D, with a really low rate of fire? Maybe, but some of the
V-series cannons from R2 are just as powerful. Its RANGE is its best
feature, making it a potentially slick anti-aircraft weapon... if you aim
visually, with telescopic sites, you can ignore ECCM and such...

Mongoose
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:42:03 +0100
According to Mongoose, at 17:27 on 23 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> At 20D, with a really low rate of fire? Maybe, but some of the
> V-series cannons from R2 are just as powerful. Its RANGE is its best
> feature, making it a potentially slick anti-aircraft weapon...

I'd imagine SR anti-aircraft "artillery" would consist for an important
part of lasers -- that way you can avoid the whole problem that was so
obvious in Iraq last week: having to fire huge amounts of rounds to put
one lucky hit on target. (Or, as a German general put in in WWII when
Hitler wanted a "wall of steel" against Allied bombers, "Yes, it can be
done, but we'd have to put six anti-aircraft guns on every square meter.")

One problem is that the published lasers have very short ranges for a
weapon to be used as AA, but more power should be able to solve that, I
think.

> if you aim visually, with telescopic sites, you can ignore ECCM and
> such...

Then you're not making the most use of its long range, I fear. For truly
accurate AA fire you need radar coupled to a fire control computer;
optical sights can be used, but they drastically increase the amount of
ammo needed, even for a rail gun that has a higher muzzle velocity than a
conventional gun.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 05:19:45 EST
In a message dated 12/23/98 5:06:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

> > What about the Relampago in the Aztlan book?
> >
> > Does that count as a "tank gun"?
>
> Yep, forgot about that. Still, it has the same damage code as a heavy
> autocannon so I'm not sure I'd count it as a tank gun even though it's
> listed as 120 mm caliber (which would be a bit of a strange caliber for a
> railgun anyway).
>

Gurth, who cares what calibre it is, all that matters to me is that the darn
thing is a rail-gun and is pretty scary.

-Herc
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 10:55:54 +0100
According to Mike Bobroff, at 5:19 on 24 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> > Yep, forgot about that. Still, it has the same damage code as a heavy
> > autocannon so I'm not sure I'd count it as a tank gun even though it's
> > listed as 120 mm caliber (which would be a bit of a strange caliber for a
> > railgun anyway).
>
> Gurth, who cares what calibre it is, all that matters to me is that the darn
> thing is a rail-gun and is pretty scary.

It is pretty scary, but to me the "120 mm" detracts from weapon's
believability -- to someone who _does_ know something about the subject,
it seems not much more than a good example of someone who doesn't know
what they're talking about, writing about it anyway.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 09:45:27 EST
In a message dated 12/25/98, 3:56:37 AM, SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET writes:
<<
> > Yep, forgot about that. Still, it has the same damage code as a heavy
> > autocannon so I'm not sure I'd count it as a tank gun even though it's
> > listed as 120 mm caliber (which would be a bit of a strange caliber for a
> > railgun anyway).
>
> Gurth, who cares what calibre it is, all that matters to me is that the darn
> thing is a rail-gun and is pretty scary.

It is pretty scary, but to me the "120 mm" detracts from weapon's
believability -- to someone who _does_ know something about the subject,
it seems not much more than a good example of someone who doesn't know
what they're talking about, writing about it anyway.>>

Gurth, I am sorry about what I said, but the point I am trying to make is that
adding in the idea of calibres begins to burden the game down even further
with more information than is absolutely necessary. The weapons and
ammunition as they currently exist help to keep the game streamlined and
smooth, with little in the way of complications. Adding in the calibre size
is something which should be added in for the roleplay perspective.

I do admit that you have far more knowledge on the topic of firearms and heavy
weapons than I do, but your ideas to me seem to add on so much more
information and baggage that would have to be added into the rules of the
game. Personally, I'm gonna stick with making it a rp effect than a literal
effect.

-Herc
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 19:15:41 +0100
According to Mike Bobroff, at 9:45 on 26 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> Gurth, I am sorry about what I said, but the point I am trying to make is that
> adding in the idea of calibres begins to burden the game down even further
> with more information than is absolutely necessary. The weapons and
> ammunition as they currently exist help to keep the game streamlined and
> smooth, with little in the way of complications. Adding in the calibre size
> is something which should be added in for the roleplay perspective.

hey, don't tell me -- I've never been in favor of adding in calibers in
SR. Not really because of the added complication (which, for me anyway,
there isn't) but because the weapons as they are written up don't really
mesh with the idea.

> I do admit that you have far more knowledge on the topic of firearms and heavy
> weapons than I do, but your ideas to me seem to add on so much more
> information and baggage that would have to be added into the rules of the
> game. Personally, I'm gonna stick with making it a rp effect than a literal
> effect.

Same here, but it's nice to see that an off-hand remark of mine had such a
big follow-up as a result :) The only thing I use my knowledge about this
for in SR games is to come up with jams and things when someone rolls all
ones, and to make another player say I'm right when he tries to argue
about such stuff *grin*

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 17:22:37 EST
In a message dated 12/26/98, 12:18:48 PM, SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET writes:
<<> Gurth, I am sorry about what I said, but the point I am trying to make is
that
> adding in the idea of calibres begins to burden the game down even further
> with more information than is absolutely necessary. The weapons and
> ammunition as they currently exist help to keep the game streamlined and
> smooth, with little in the way of complications. Adding in the calibre size
> is something which should be added in for the roleplay perspective.

-hey, don't tell me -- I've never been in favor of adding in calibers in
-SR. Not really because of the added complication (which, for me anyway,
-there isn't) but because the weapons as they are written up don't really
-mesh with the idea.

Ah, I see, adding in calibre sizes for the weapons already in existence (IMHO<
an Ares Predator II is probably a modified .357 magnum), which I would have no
idea what calibre it would in terms of mm (9 perhaps?!?).

> I do admit that you have far more knowledge on the topic of firearms and
heavy
> weapons than I do, but your ideas to me seem to add on so much more
> information and baggage that would have to be added into the rules of the
> game. Personally, I'm gonna stick with making it a rp effect than a literal
> effect.

-Same here, but it's nice to see that an off-hand remark of mine had such a
-big follow-up as a result :) The only thing I use my knowledge about this
-for in SR games is to come up with jams and things when someone rolls all
-ones, and to make another player say I'm right when he tries to argue
-about such stuff *grin*>>

Hmm, personally, what are the rules you use for unclogging jams? A B/R
Firearms (or whatever in SR3) with a minimum number of successes equal to half
the number of botched successes? With a target number of a 3 or 4?

Thanks,
-Herc
Message no. 18
From: "Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 14:58:41 -0800
> Ah, I see, adding in calibre sizes for the weapons already in existence
(IMHO<
> an Ares Predator II is probably a modified .357 magnum), which I would
have no
> idea what calibre it would in terms of mm (9 perhaps?!?).

I always figured it was either .38 Super (mostly just a pumped up 9mm) or
10mm. It has too high a capacity to be a .45 or anything bigger.

> Hmm, personally, what are the rules you use for unclogging jams? A B/R
> Firearms (or whatever in SR3) with a minimum number of successes equal to
half
> the number of botched successes? With a target number of a 3 or 4?

You'd think the guns by 2050-60 are advanced enough that misfires, feed
jams and stovepipes are even more rare than now. Clearing something like
that should probably be a simple action, since it's just like readying the
weapon. A Firearms or B/R check it a good idea, since not everyone could
know how. Now THERE's an evil thought. ^_^

Hatchetman, GUV.
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 11:44:26 +0100
According to Mike Bobroff, at 17:22 on 26 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> Ah, I see, adding in calibre sizes for the weapons already in existence

Doing that will only needlessly complicate the game, not in the least
because you'll get people going, "If this is a 9 mm Para and that's a .357
Magnum, why do they both cause 9M damage?"

> (IMHO< an Ares Predator II is probably a modified .357 magnum), which I
> would have no idea what calibre it would in terms of mm (9 perhaps?!?).

About 9.1 mm; if you really want to know, find a .357 Magnum or .38
Special and measure the inside diameter of the barrel between both the
lands and the grooves; with the former you have the European caliber, with
the latter, the American :)

> Hmm, personally, what are the rules you use for unclogging jams? A B/R
> Firearms (or whatever in SR3) with a minimum number of successes equal to half
> the number of botched successes? With a target number of a 3 or 4?

Usually, I just make them spend a Simple Action to cycle the weapon
manually* after which the gun usually works fine again, because AFAIK it's
usually rounds failing to go off that cause well-built guns to
malfunction. In the few cases where I don't feel this was appropriate, a
B/R test with an average TN will do the trick, but that will also take a
little more time.

* = This made the aforementioned player, who has some (not very much, I
think) practical shooting experience as opposed to my theoretical-only
knowledge, go "Ooh, never do that!" It turned out they had someone at the
firing range once who's pistol failed to fire, and he pulled the slide
back only to get a cartridge case flying out into his face or something.
The trouble was, from an SR POV, that jams happen in firefights, not on
nice, safe firing ranges... IMHO you don't have the time to put the gun
away, pointing in a safe direction, for an hour when those security guards
are shooting at you ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Blackadder <blkadder@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:43:11 -0500
> Ah, I see, adding in calibre sizes for the weapons already in existence

Doing that will only needlessly complicate the game, not in the least
because you'll get people going, "If this is a 9 mm Para and that's a .357
Magnum, why do they both cause 9M damage?"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Blackadder added.....;-}

Not really. I put in the calibers for weapons used in my game, for the
simple reason it adds a bit of color to the world. I spent the time, did the
number crunching, consulted a few survivalist friends on the subject <grin>,
and came up with the approximations. Which is all they are, approximations.
They give me [and I hope my players] a better idea what they're
handling, and whether or not a gun may too big [Never!] or too small for
their purposes. It's a role playing aid, not a ROLL playing aid.
Message no. 21
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:26:47 EST
In a message dated 12/27/98 2:45:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> Usually, I just make them spend a Simple Action to cycle the weapon
> manually* after which the gun usually works fine again, because AFAIK it's
> usually rounds failing to go off that cause well-built guns to
> malfunction. In the few cases where I don't feel this was appropriate, a
> B/R test with an average TN will do the trick, but that will also take a
> little more time.
>
> * = This made the aforementioned player, who has some (not very much, I
> think) practical shooting experience as opposed to my theoretical-only
> knowledge, go "Ooh, never do that!" It turned out they had someone at the
> firing range once who's pistol failed to fire, and he pulled the slide
> back only to get a cartridge case flying out into his face or something.
> The trouble was, from an SR POV, that jams happen in firefights, not on
> nice, safe firing ranges... IMHO you don't have the time to put the gun
> away, pointing in a safe direction, for an hour when those security guards
> are shooting at you ;)
Types of jams: 1st, as you mentioned, round is a dud, eject it and try again
(with a revolver or other manual action, just keep going, it will go to the
next roiund anyway)
2: with semi-auto (usually smaller things) the person didn't "lock their
wrist" enough, the energy did not eject the round fired or chamber the next
round correctly. Takes a little longer to clear, since you might have a round
stuck. Easiest is to pull the mag out and cycle the gun upside down until the
bullet drops out.
3: (the fun one) the round (for whatever little whim it feels) has a delayed
reaction. Instead of going off at once, it may take up to 15 seconds. (Which
is why you are supposed to keep pointed down range when a dud occurs, then
eject) This is of course the fun one if you want to screw with the players
(and who doesn't) the round could go off as they clear it or maybe later :-)
Message no. 22
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 12:31:21 EST
In a message dated 12/27/98 7:43:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
blkadder@****.NET writes:

> Not really. I put in the calibers for weapons used in my game, for the
> simple reason it adds a bit of color to the world. I spent the time, did
the
> number crunching, consulted a few survivalist friends on the subject
<grin>,
> and came up with the approximations. Which is all they are, approximations.
> They give me [and I hope my players] a better idea what they're
> handling, and whether or not a gun may too big [Never!] or too small for
> their purposes. It's a role playing aid, not a ROLL playing aid.
> es
I have rules for calibers, though I never really specified the calibers, since
most modern guns come in many different calibers today.
OTOH, I do believe Light pistol rounds should be a lot cheaper than sniper
rifle rounds, so I have divided ammo into the different "classes" (E.G. hold-
out, light pistol, light rifle, heavy rifle) (heavy pistols and SMG use the
same rounds, assault rifles use light rifle rounds)
Message no. 23
From: "Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:50:30 -0800
> Doing that will only needlessly complicate the game, not in the least
> because you'll get people going, "If this is a 9 mm Para and that's a
.357
> Magnum, why do they both cause 9M damage?"

Well, you could always cite barrel length, and bullet weight and velocity
if you want to really confuse them. Different calibers I use, balistics and
other stuff makes it just too complex.

> The trouble was, from an SR POV, that jams happen in firefights, not on
> nice, safe firing ranges... IMHO you don't have the time to put the gun
> away, pointing in a safe direction, for an hour when those security
guards
> are shooting at you ;)

Could always try and politely ask them to wait. ^_^ Well, maybe.

Hatchetman, GUV.
Message no. 24
From: "Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 09:53:28 -0800
> Not really. I put in the calibers for weapons used in my game, for
the
> simple reason it adds a bit of color to the world. I spent the time, did
the
> number crunching, consulted a few survivalist friends on the subject
<grin>,
> and came up with the approximations. Which is all they are,
approximations.
> They give me [and I hope my players] a better idea what they're
> handling, and whether or not a gun may too big [Never!] or too small for
> their purposes. It's a role playing aid, not a ROLL playing aid.

Yup, I've found it gives the other guys I play with more to take in, plus I
find that they have more respect for certain rounds. "He has a Predator?
So?" as compared to "A 10mm? Oh christ, duck." It's even better when
someone has an old .45, since everyone in the group has seen what THOSE
things can do, of course, they'd also put more thought in going against
someone with a .22 rifle than just some joker with an AK.

Hatchetman, GUV
Message no. 25
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:05:07 EST
In a message dated 12/26/1998 5:55:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
hatchet@*********.BC.CA writes:

> > Hmm, personally, what are the rules you use for unclogging jams? A B/R
> > Firearms (or whatever in SR3) with a minimum number of successes equal to
> half
> > the number of botched successes? With a target number of a 3 or 4?
>
> You'd think the guns by 2050-60 are advanced enough that misfires, feed
> jams and stovepipes are even more rare than now. Clearing something like
> that should probably be a simple action, since it's just like readying the
> weapon. A Firearms or B/R check it a good idea, since not everyone could
> know how. Now THERE's an evil thought. ^_^
>
I agree completely with the thought. Not everyone who knows how to fire a gun
also knows how to unjam a weapon (I now I can't). I'd make it a B/R Firearms
(3) test, which would make it a Firearms (5). And, I know, using SR3, just
substitute the right weapon for firearms and everything will be okay then.

-Herc
Message no. 26
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:05:21 EST
In a message dated 12/27/1998 12:32:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Schizi@***.COM writes:

> In a message dated 12/27/98 7:43:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> blkadder@****.NET writes:
>
> > Not really. I put in the calibers for weapons used in my game, for
> the
> > simple reason it adds a bit of color to the world. I spent the time, did
> the
> > number crunching, consulted a few survivalist friends on the subject
> <grin>,
> > and came up with the approximations. Which is all they are,
> approximations.
> > They give me [and I hope my players] a better idea what they're
> > handling, and whether or not a gun may too big [Never!] or too small for
> > their purposes. It's a role playing aid, not a ROLL playing aid.
> > es
> I have rules for calibers, though I never really specified the calibers,
> since
> most modern guns come in many different calibers today.
> OTOH, I do believe Light pistol rounds should be a lot cheaper than sniper
> rifle rounds, so I have divided ammo into the different "classes" (E.G.
hold-
>
> out, light pistol, light rifle, heavy rifle) (heavy pistols and SMG use the
> same rounds, assault rifles use light rifle rounds)

Mind sending me a copy of the rules you've got, I wouldn't mind getting a
chance to see them. Please send it to me privately.

This probably goes for anyone else who would not mind seeing those rules also.

-Herc
Message no. 27
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:05:17 EST
In a message dated 12/27/1998 5:45:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

> > Ah, I see, adding in calibre sizes for the weapons already in existence
>
> Doing that will only needlessly complicate the game, not in the least
> because you'll get people going, "If this is a 9 mm Para and that's a .357
> Magnum, why do they both cause 9M damage?"
>
No, no, no, you got me all wrong, the insertion of calibres is for rp purposes
only, and has absolutely nothing to do with the mechanics of the game.

-Herc
Message no. 28
From: "Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:03:52 -0800
> I agree completely with the thought. Not everyone who knows how to fire
a gun
> also knows how to unjam a weapon (I now I can't). I'd make it a B/R
Firearms
> (3) test, which would make it a Firearms (5). And, I know, using SR3,
just
> substitute the right weapon for firearms and everything will be okay
then.
>
> -Herc

You should learn how to clear a jam in a hurry. Most are pretty easy,
though in my good gun, I've had a misfire with one round that I had been
screwing around with, but other than that, nothing. And it's an old gun.
Made in the early 70's, about 6 years before I was born. I've got an older
one too, but it's been abused to the point that every third round misfires
or jams. I suppose having a guiderod that's snapped in half is effecting
it. Well, I don't use it anyways.
Message no. 29
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:54:35 EST
In a message dated 12/28/98 1:05:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, Airwasp@***.COM
writes:

> > I have rules for calibers, though I never really specified the calibers,
> > since
> > most modern guns come in many different calibers today.
> > OTOH, I do believe Light pistol rounds should be a lot cheaper than
> sniper
> > rifle rounds, so I have divided ammo into the different "classes"
(E.G.
> hold-
> >
> > out, light pistol, light rifle, heavy rifle) (heavy pistols and SMG use
> the
> > same rounds, assault rifles use light rifle rounds)
>
> Mind sending me a copy of the rules you've got, I wouldn't mind getting a
> chance to see them. Please send it to me privately.
>
> This probably goes for anyone else who would not mind seeing those rules
> also.

Assuming you meant my rules, they are on my site at:
http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum/main/htm
Message no. 30
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 03:15:26 EST
In a message dated 12/28/1998 8:55:48 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Schizi@***.COM writes:

> In a message dated 12/28/98 1:05:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Airwasp@***.COM
> writes:
>
> > > I have rules for calibers, though I never really specified the
calibers,
>
> > > since
> > > most modern guns come in many different calibers today.
> > > OTOH, I do believe Light pistol rounds should be a lot cheaper than
> > sniper
> > > rifle rounds, so I have divided ammo into the different
"classes"
(E.G.
>
> > hold-
> > >
> > > out, light pistol, light rifle, heavy rifle) (heavy pistols and SMG
> use
> > the
> > > same rounds, assault rifles use light rifle rounds)
> >
> > Mind sending me a copy of the rules you've got, I wouldn't mind getting
a
> > chance to see them. Please send it to me privately.
> >
> > This probably goes for anyone else who would not mind seeing those rules
> > also.
>
> Assuming you meant my rules, they are on my site at:
> http://members.aol.com/vocenoctum/main/htm

Thanks for the addy Schizi.

-Herc
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:37:37 +0100
According to Mike Bobroff, at 15:05 on 28 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> > Doing that will only needlessly complicate the game, not in the least
> > because you'll get people going, "If this is a 9 mm Para and that's a .357
> > Magnum, why do they both cause 9M damage?"
> >
> No, no, no, you got me all wrong, the insertion of calibres is for rp purposes
> only, and has absolutely nothing to do with the mechanics of the game.

I understood you meant that, but not everyone will. From my experiences,
it would be very likely at least one player would ask something like that
even after the GM states clearly and up front that the calibers are not
there to reflect differences in damage.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The names have not been changed to protect the guilty.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a few questions
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:56:54 EST
In a message dated 12/29/1998 5:40:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

> > > Doing that will only needlessly complicate the game, not in the least
> > > because you'll get people going, "If this is a 9 mm Para and that's
a
.
> 357
> > > Magnum, why do they both cause 9M damage?"
> > >
> > No, no, no, you got me all wrong, the insertion of calibres is for rp
> purposes
> > only, and has absolutely nothing to do with the mechanics of the game.
>
> I understood you meant that, but not everyone will. From my experiences,
> it would be very likely at least one player would ask something like that
> even after the GM states clearly and up front that the calibers are not
> there to reflect differences in damage.

All too true, there is bound to be someone out in the SR world of gamers that
is going to take everything too literally as you say.

-Herc

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