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Message no. 1
From: Gabriel Sims <grendel_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Karma and Roleplaying
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:53:52 PDT
Hello yall,

As I have never GM'ed before, I was wondering about Karma awards.
How much? Should I punish players who havn't (IMNSHO) role played well?
Specific Example:
1. The Street Sam with Wired Reflexes...He/She should be on
edge ALL the time.
2. I view Essence as a measurment of humanity (kinda)...Should
low essence characters be less human?
3. Magi are more in tune with emotions and stuff (due to astral
influences) should that be role played?

On another note, how much of the campaign should be firefights and how
much should be detective/footwork? I realize that sometimes the story
calls for a fight (but since I played A_&_ for a few years I'm kinda
looking for something more...) but sometimes fights should be avoided.
(I plan to have the PC's outclassed in most fights. Most players I meet
just don't realize the consequence of carrying assault rifles and
assault cannons: Basically 2-4 Lone Star teams plus air support).
Anyway back to my question, what makes for an enjoyable game balance.

My third question is one I havn't seen answered in the BBB (maybe I
didn't look hard enough). How much money should the PC's have? Too
much is unrealistic while not enough gets REALLY old after a while.
So...how much is good? How much is too much?

Thanks for your help, I'll let you know how the first session went once
I actually get this game off the ground. 8)
Green Dog

======================================================
An upturned tortise is the nineth most pathetic thing in the entire
multiverse. An upturned tortise that knows what is going to happen next
is, well, at least up there at number four.
--Small Gods (Terry Prachett)


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Message no. 2
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma and Roleplaying
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 01:42:20 -0400
At 09:53 PM 8/28/97 PDT, you wrote:
>Hello yall,
>
>As I have never GM'ed before, I was wondering about Karma awards.

Oh boy Green is right.

>How much? Should I punish players who havn't (IMNSHO) role played well?
>Specific Example:
> 1. The Street Sam with Wired Reflexes...He/She should be on
>edge ALL the time.

Hmmm punish them for this? Most people including myself always thought that
a reflex trigger should be part of the cost of reflex enhancements. Sammies
and the like do develop way to cope with the part of the job I'd only say
they should be punished in the form of perception tests to make during
stressful situations.

> 2. I view Essence as a measurment of humanity (kinda)...Should
>low essence characters be less human?

Depends. I've always views essences and a bit more mechanical in regards to
the soundness of the central nervous system. As for the cyber pychoisis only
if they can't role-play well, but only in the form of social encounter
modifiers.

> 3. Magi are more in tune with emotions and stuff (due to astral
>influences) should that be role played?


Shamans and houngans may be more in tune, but the atypical hermetics is a
cold as a cucumber.


>On another note, how much of the campaign should be firefights and how
>much should be detective/footwork?

20% / 80% firefight to role-playing

> I realize that sometimes the story
>calls for a fight (but since I played A_&_ for a few years I'm kinda
>looking for something more...) but sometimes fights should be avoided.
>(I plan to have the PC's outclassed in most fights. Most players I meet
>just don't realize the consequence of carrying assault rifles and
>assault cannons: Basically 2-4 Lone Star teams plus air support).

HAve the LS mow down the team a few times they should get the hint. Ls is
likely to fire first and forget to ask questions. No your security premits
don't mean shit to the chopper in the air.

>Anyway back to my question, what makes for an enjoyable game balance.

That's all up to you and your group.

>My third question is one I havn't seen answered in the BBB (maybe I
>didn't look hard enough). How much money should the PC's have? Too
>much is unrealistic while not enough gets REALLY old after a while.
>So...how much is good? How much is too much?

Depends on the power level you want.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I summon the unholy demons of Apathy, Sarcasm and Cynicism!!

Wally from the Dilbert comics

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 3
From: Shaun Hall <Hard.master@********.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Karma and Role-playing
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:48:31 -0700
:
: As I have never GM'ed before, I was wondering about Karma awards.
: How much?

There is a very nice explanation of how to award Karma in the 2nd
edition basic rulebook. If you follow those instructions your players will
gain Karma slowly enough to appreciate it, but quickly enough that they
will soon begin planning what they want to do with it. In my experience
players usually start by boosting stats. Then they will work on a few
skills. Then they will buy new skills as they discover weaknesses in their
characters. Mages are an exception to this as the class is several times
more karma intensive.


Should I punish players who havn't (IMNSHO) role played well?
: Specific Example:

I have always found that you get better results if you reward players
who role-play well rather than punishing those who RP poorly. The rules
discussed above cover this. The only reason to punish a player for bad
role-playing is if they should do something totally out of character. In my
games the scenario usually provides such punishment. I rarely have to come
up with something extra.


: 1. The Street Sam with Wired Reflexes...He/She should be on
: edge ALL the time.

You can help with this by occasionally describing a completely innocent
situation in alarming terms (e.g. The players are walking down the street
and a pedestrian reaches into his suit jacket and pulls out his cigar case
and lights up. [to regular characters] to wired character: The guy walking
toward you suddenly reaches into his jacket. It looks like he going for a
gun in a shoulder holster! You're the only one fast enough to reach before
he can draw and fire on the party. What do you do?!).



: 2. I view Essence as a measurment of humanity (kinda)...Should
: low essence characters be less human?

If the character's essence is very low (less than 1) they might begin
to lose touch with humanity. This can be an interesting role-playing
exercise if the player approaches it correctly. Part of the time they are
acting inhuman, and the rest of it they are worrying about losing what's
left of their humanity.



: 3. Magi are more in tune with emotions and stuff (due to astral
: influences) should that be role played?

That is a judgement call on the part of the player. It is one angle
they could work from, but not the only one. Also remember that different
traditions approach magic and the astral plane from different directions
(shaman have a humanistic approach, while magicians are more scientific in
their approach).


:
: On another note, how much of the campaign should be firefights and how
: much should be detective/footwork?

That depends on your players. Some need a good deal of action to keep
their interest. Others enjoy delving into a fine mystery. The important
thing is to try to see that all of the players needs are met.


I realize that sometimes the story
: calls for a fight (but since I played A_&_ for a few years I'm kinda
: looking for something more...) but sometimes fights should be avoided.
: (I plan to have the PC's outclassed in most fights. Most players I meet
: just don't realize the consequence of carrying assault rifles and
: assault cannons: Basically 2-4 Lone Star teams plus air support).
: Anyway back to my question, what makes for an enjoyable game balance.

Give the players a few close calls to teach them that they aren't the
end all be all for combat. Once they realize that their characters can get
hurt or killed they should be a bit more careful. It took me quite a while
to teach my players that there was a benefit in avoiding a fight.


:
: My third question is one I havn't seen answered in the BBB (maybe I
: didn't look hard enough). How much money should the PC's have? Too
: much is unrealistic while not enough gets REALLY old after a while.
: So...how much is good? How much is too much?

Keeping them poor to begin with is my preference. Make them earn a
reputation as reliable runners before they start getting the big jobs. Then
make sure that their opposition is equipped at least as well as they are
just to keep things interesting. I personally prefer it when the players
are excited about getting a job that party the entire party 2,000 newyen.
Message no. 4
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Karma and Roleplaying
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:08:09 EDT
On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:53:52 PDT Gabriel Sims <grendel_22@*******.COM>
writes:
>Hello yall,
>
>As I have never GM'ed before, I was wondering about Karma awards.
>How much?


I believe the 'average' Karma award is something like 4 or 5. Use the
guidlines in the book, 1 point for survival, 1 for reaching the goal, a
point or two for threat, etc.


> Should I punish players who havn't (IMNSHO) role played


No (not unless they are doing stuff that is seriously OOC and
disruptive). You want to reward the good players, not punish the bad.
This is called positive reinforcement. Just be sure that the munchies
know _why_ you're giving the other guy(s) more Karma.


>well?
>Specific Example:
> 1. The Street Sam with Wired Reflexes...He/She should be on
>edge ALL the time.


<shrug> That's right, I guess, just make sure your player knows that.


> 2. I view Essence as a measurment of humanity (kinda)...Should
>low essence characters be less human?


If you desire it, though very low Essence characters (less than one) get
penalties on a lot of Charisma/Social tests anyway.


> 3. Magi are more in tune with emotions and stuff (due to astral
>influences) should that be role played?


Only if you're willing to give them more information to work with. They
can't role-play jack about somebody else's emotions if they don't know
what the person is feeling.


>On another note, how much of the campaign should be firefights and how
>much should be detective/footwork? I realize that sometimes the story


Try and center it more on the detective-type stuff, it'll provide for
more RPing.


>calls for a fight (but since I played A_&_ for a few years I'm kinda
>looking for something more...) but sometimes fights should be avoided.
>(I plan to have the PC's outclassed in most fights. Most players I
>meet
>just don't realize the consequence of carrying assault rifles and
>assault cannons: Basically 2-4 Lone Star teams plus air support).


Easily solved: next time they carry assault weapons down the street, pull
out the Lone Star HTR group, armed with a pair of Mobmasters and heavy
weapons:)


>Anyway back to my question, what makes for an enjoyable game balance.
>
>My third question is one I havn't seen answered in the BBB (maybe I
>didn't look hard enough). How much money should the PC's have? Too
>much is unrealistic while not enough gets REALLY old after a while.
>So...how much is good? How much is too much?


Hmmm ... Maybe you just need to do a bit of playing to find this one out,
though here's an idea: start with low-paying runs, maybe a few thousand
nuyen total, to be split up by the runners. Slowly work up from there.



/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /
Message no. 5
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Karma and Roleplaying
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 06:21:29 -0600
At 21:53 8/28/97 PDT, you wrote:

>As I have never GM'ed before, I was wondering about Karma awards.
>How much? Should I punish players who havn't (IMNSHO) role played well?

Punish? No. Not reward, yes.
I have 3 players right now. Jim, Chris, and Brad. Jim is fairly content
to follow everyone else. Chris strikes out on his own once in awhile and
is steadily getting better. Brad takes charge, does most of the
in-character roleplaying, and keeps the others in line.
Brad always seems to have a few more karma than the rest of them.. :)

>Specific Example:
> 2. I view Essence as a measurment of humanity (kinda)...Should
>low essence characters be less human?

Hrm. Probably, yes. Depends on the character, really.

>On another note, how much of the campaign should be firefights and how
>much should be detective/footwork? I realize that sometimes the story
>calls for a fight (but since I played A_&_ for a few years I'm kinda
>looking for something more...) but sometimes fights should be avoided.
>Anyway back to my question, what makes for an enjoyable game balance.

All depends on your group, and the situations they find themselves in. In
a 4 hour gaming session, there should be maybe one or two combat
encounters. These can drag on a long time if there are a lot of characters
involved, so be careful..
(In Dreamchipper, I can remember one of the combat encounters taking at
least 2 hours in real life time.. )

>My third question is one I havn't seen answered in the BBB (maybe I
>didn't look hard enough). How much money should the PC's have? Too
>much is unrealistic while not enough gets REALLY old after a while.
>So...how much is good? How much is too much?

Better too little than too much, IMO.
People hiring runners aren't going to want to pay them more than they have
too, and will often try to pay less than fair amounts. If runners start
coming up with too much cash and 'gear', there's always ways to get rid of
it :)
And people with too much money often get noticed by the wrong people..
"Gee, nice car. I think I'm gonna smash it's windows. Why? Because I'm
bored."

Of course, if your players aren't responding at all to certain campaign
elements, they want more money, or more combat, or less combat, or
whatever, it's best to try to oblige them..
(Unless you have a line of players waiting at the door, asking you to GM..)

-Adam

-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 6
From: woneal@*******.NET
Subject: Re: Karma and Roleplaying
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:37:51 -0005
On 28 Aug 97 at 21:53, Gabriel Sims wrote:

> Hello yall,
>
> As I have never GM'ed before, I was wondering about Karma awards.
> How much? Should I punish players who havn't (IMNSHO) role played well?
> Specific Example:
> 1. The Street Sam with Wired Reflexes...He/She should be on
> edge ALL the time.
Yes he should, and there are some rules covering it in the Shadowrun
Companion. Along with rules for social effects of people with loads of
cyber.

> 2. I view Essence as a measurment of humanity (kinda)...Should low
> essence characters be less human?
That's more of a CP2020 concept than an SR one. However, as I stated
above, there are some social consequences for having lots of cyber. If
you want to use this in your game I'd strongly recommend getting a copy of
the SR Comp.

> 3. Magi are more in tune with emotions and stuff (due to astral
> influences) should that be role played?
There really isn't anything in the game that supports this. However,
people with high Charisma scores probably should be more in tune with
emotions, while low Charisma would probably be insensitive (inhumane?)
brutes.

>
> On another note, how much of the campaign should be firefights and how
> much should be detective/footwork? I realize that sometimes the story
> calls for a fight (but since I played A_&_ for a few years I'm kinda
> looking for something more...) but sometimes fights should be avoided. (I
> plan to have the PC's outclassed in most fights. Most players I meet
> just don't realize the consequence of carrying assault rifles and assault
> cannons: Basically 2-4 Lone Star teams plus air support). Anyway back to
> my question, what makes for an enjoyable game balance.
Depends on the group. Some folks really love to roleplay and would be
happy with nothing but puzzles to solve and NPCs to interact with. Other
players just want you to wake them up when the shooting starts. Who's
playing correctly, the ones having fun. It's a game, have fun, or you're
missing the point. Try to get a feel for what the all your players want
and then try and strike a balance between them. One trick you might try,
have every one pick stock archetypes one evening and tell em to go wild,
have fun, try all the wacky ideas they ever wanted. Then you GM exactly
the way you normally would (which probably means characters are going to
be dropping left and right). When a character dies, let them pick a new
one and keep going. The point is to let the players see what happens when
they try to go shopping in the mall with a panther assault cannon over
their shoulder, or what happens when the mage casts a fireball in an
elevator or.... you get the idea. Then the next time you get together, go
back to their regular characters. The players should have a lot better
understanding of your game world with no real harm done. Plus it's great
for laughs!


>
> My third question is one I havn't seen answered in the BBB (maybe I
> didn't look hard enough). How much money should the PC's have? Too much
> is unrealistic while not enough gets REALLY old after a while. So...how
> much is good? How much is too much?
How much are you comfortable with. I've seen characters who blew every
thing they earned as fast as they got it on booze, chips, women and
whatever. I've seen other characters that invested and wound up filthy
rich. I've seen pretty much everything inbetween. It'll only wreck the
game if you let it. A rich player getting annoying, no problem, just have
a decker clean his bank accounts out, pull a NPC shadowrun against that
player, then have an entire adventure where that player and his buddies
have to track down the thieves!
On the other hand, if the idea of the game is to be a bunch of gangers
with little money, then play it that way. Make money hard to get. Make
them earn every last nuyen. Make them bleed for it. It can be fun to
play those kinds of games. As before, get an idea what your players would
enjoy and go with that.

>
> Thanks for your help, I'll let you know how the first session went once I
> actually get this game off the ground. 8) Green Dog

Good luck and best wishes.
--

Ashlocke

"... for this man can say it happened, cause this child has been
condemned. And I'm the only witness to the nature of my crime.
Don't damn me." -- G'N'R
Message no. 7
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Karma and Roleplaying
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:10:00 GMT
on 28.08.97 grendel_22@*******.COM wrote:

g2> As I have never GM'ed before, I was wondering about Karma awards.
g2> How much?

Depends. If you want the players to become powerful fast (when they start
as losers) give them, say...about 3 points per hour (This is *average*! 24
hours of sitting around give then exactly *zero* points). If you want them
to become better in a realistic way, maybe a point every 2 hours.
I've played both extrems, and I like the 1 per 2 hours more, but it really
depends on your way of viewing the game.

g2> Should I punish players who havn't (IMNSHO) role played well?

Give them less karma and tell them why. If s/he plays a shaman, well, they
usually hate losing their totems powers, don't they? <veg>

g2> Specific Example:
g2> 1. The Street Sam with Wired Reflexes...He/She should be on
g2> edge ALL the time.

If he's got no reflex-trigger or has boosted relexes, he *is* at 150% all
the time. Shout at him and he's going beserk. Make sure your players know
and play that (cyber isn't that positive)

g2> 2. I view Essence as a measurment of humanity (kinda)...Should
g2> low essence characters be less human?

There are (IMO) two ways of playing heavy-cybered chars (same as military
chars):
1) The psycho. What you'd call less human. S/He kills whoever pisses him/
her of, likes toruring people, firefights and other peoples blood.
2) The anti-hero. S/He has done a lot of nasty things and regrets it. The
cyber makes him/her feel bad, more like a robot than a human being.
Usually these char's envy the non-cybered chars for their 'purity' and
usually these are pretty wise and have high charisma-ratings :)

Normaly, type 1 chars are munchies. It's damn easy to play a serial killer
with the personality of an MBT. They're fun in chaos-sessions, though.
Type 2s are for roleplayers.

Oh, yeah: Type 2s can get girl/boyfriends. Type 1s can't.

g2> 3. Magi are more in tune with emotions and stuff (due to astral
g2> influences) should that be role played?

I wouldn't say that they have to be more balanced. Of course, if the
player selects a bear-shaman, he's gotta play a bear-shaman. Hermetics can
be anything the players want then to, though.

g2> On another note, how much of the campaign should be firefights and how
g2> much should be detective/footwork? I realize that sometimes the story
g2> calls for a fight (but since I played A_&_ for a few years I'm kinda
g2> looking for something more...) but sometimes fights should be avoided.
g2> (I plan to have the PC's outclassed in most fights. Most players I meet
g2> just don't realize the consequence of carrying assault rifles and
g2> assault cannons: Basically 2-4 Lone Star teams plus air support).
g2> Anyway back to my question, what makes for an enjoyable game balance.

Looks to me like you want role-playing not roll-playing, so make
firefights the last resort and a sign of the players failure. As soon as
they have to fight, something went wrong. About outclassing: This is very
dangerous. Your average Sammy takes down your average security team
without problems. If you start throwing heavies at the PCs, it's getting
unrealistic. There are better ways to make the players avoid fights. E.g.
remember that NPCs have friends. If the guard, whom they shot yesterday
has a brother in a LoneStar tactical commando, the runners may find
themselves at the recieving end of a Mossberg CMDT pretty soon. This is
really funny when the Seolpa-rings are involved: The soul-men get very
angry very soon.
Just don't make the mistake of letting three Ruhrmetall Behemoths guard
every storage building.


g2> My third question is one I havn't seen answered in the BBB (maybe I
g2> didn't look hard enough). How much money should the PC's have? Too
g2> much is unrealistic while not enough gets REALLY old after a while.
g2> So...how much is good? How much is too much?

Wasn't it 3d6 x 1000Y + 10% of the money left after chargen?

Tobias

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