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Message no. 1
From: Drea drea_@***.net
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:36:22 -0500
What I have decided to allow:
When the Johnson is hiring the team, before he names a price, a player has
the option to waive the cash. ("No no, we couldn't take money for this, it
is
our civic duty") They must do it without knowing how much money they get,
and
they also do not know how much karma they will earn for the run.

So, what does everyone else think?

Sounds good. Just getting karma from spending money doesn't float my boat.
However, doing a job out of your civic duty does.

Pink`
Message no. 2
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:26:26 EDT
Quick Query: How does everyone use the option (or not use)
My group is now 5 magic out of 6, and a few naggers really want to convert
money into karma, myself, I think it devalues karma to have a price put on it
("I will donate 5000¥ to an orphanage, and that will net me how much karma?"

Just don't seem right)
I have no problem with spending good karma to net some cash (sinking karma
into which scratch off ticket to buy, etc.)

What I have decided to allow:
When the Johnson is hiring the team, before he names a price, a player has
the option to waive the cash. ("No no, we couldn't take money for this, it is
our civic duty") They must do it without knowing how much money they get, and
they also do not know how much karma they will earn for the run.

So, what does everyone else think?
Message no. 3
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:44:45 -0700
At 14:26 5/12/99 -0400, Schizi@***.com wrote:
> Quick Query: How does everyone use the option (or not use)
>My group is now 5 magic out of 6, and a few naggers really want to convert
>money into karma, myself, I think it devalues karma to have a price put on it
>("I will donate 5000¥ to an orphanage, and that will net me how much
karma?"
>Just don't seem right)

The way we treat karma in our game is that it comes from Making a Difference.
A mage who pulls 40-hour weeks healing people for free at the local clinic
can pull down 1 karma every 2 weeks this way.

If I had a PC who *really* wanted to do cash for karma, I'd make them
set up a whole charitable organization-- endow a soup kitchen, buy a
truckload of teaching slates and distribute them to the children in
a neighborhood and kick the ass of anyone who tries to take them from
the kids and sell them, and other things that involve actual *work*,
not just sending a credit transfer to a server somewhere.

Once the operation was set up, I'd give them a good handful of karma
(5-10 points, perhaps, based on the scale of the operation) for
putting serious effort into making a difference and the opposition
they had to overcome to get it going, and then give them some extra
here and there when they beat up gangs that try to muscle in.

--
%% Max Rible %%% max@********.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 4
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:11:28 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/99 2:48:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
slothman@*********.org writes:

> Once the operation was set up, I'd give them a good handful of karma
> (5-10 points, perhaps, based on the scale of the operation) for
> putting serious effort into making a difference and the opposition
> they had to overcome to get it going, and then give them some extra
> here and there when they beat up gangs that try to muscle in.

I like that idea. basically they finance their own "karma run" and it makes
more of a difference. Thanks for the idea
Message no. 5
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:07:26 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 12 May 1999 14:26:26 EDT, Schizi@***.com wrote:

> Quick Query: How does everyone use the option (or not use)
>My group is now 5 magic out of 6, and a few naggers really want to convert
>money into karma, myself, I think it devalues karma to have a price put on it
>("I will donate 5000 to an orphanage, and that will net me how much karma?"

>Just don't seem right)
> I have no problem with spending good karma to net some cash (sinking karma
>into which scratch off ticket to buy, etc.)
>
> What I have decided to allow:
>When the Johnson is hiring the team, before he names a price, a player has
>the option to waive the cash. ("No no, we couldn't take money for this, it is
>our civic duty") They must do it without knowing how much money they get, and
>they also do not know how much karma they will earn for the run.

That works very well for me... But what if not all of the players wish to do this?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 6
From: Shawn Plummer plummer@***.cc.geneseo.edu
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:32:33 -0400
> Quick Query: How does everyone use the option (or not use)
> My group is now 5 magic out of 6, and a few naggers really want to convert
> money into karma, myself, I think it devalues karma to have a price put on
> it
> ("I will donate 5000¥ to an orphanage, and that will net me how much
karma?"
> Just don't seem right)
> I have no problem with spending good karma to net some cash (sinking karma
> into which scratch off ticket to buy, etc.)
>
> What I have decided to allow:
> When the Johnson is hiring the team, before he names a price, a player has
> the option to waive the cash. ("No no, we couldn't take money for this, it
> is
> our civic duty") They must do it without knowing how much money they get,
> and
> they also do not know how much karma they will earn for the run.
>
> So, what does everyone else think?

I approach this by allowing money to be converted to karma but it
is a percentage If a runner has 100,000 nuyen then what does it matter
if he gives up say $5000. I make them turn in hefty percentage of
their total cash per good karma point they want. I also limit the
amount of good karma that can be between runs. And also a minimum
amount of nuyen that can be traded in for karma.


--
Plum
shawn@*******.net

"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which
differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people
are not even capable of forming such opinions."
- Albert Einstein (1875-1955)
Message no. 7
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 14:59:25 -0500
On Wed, 12 May 1999 14:26:26 EDT Schizi@***.com writes:
> Quick Query: How does everyone use the option (or not use)
<SNIP>

I MIGHT allow karma for cash with Fibonacci twist... First point and
second of karma cost 1,000 each (at least). From there, the nth karma
point purchased costs (cost n-1 + cost of n-2). It doesn't matter how
much karma (if any) is earned between karma points.

The progression would look like this:
Number of Karma Cost of Current
Points Previously Karma Point to be
Purchased (= n-1) Purchased
0 1,000
1 1,000
2 2,000
3 3,000
4 5,000
5 8,000
6 13,000
7 21,000
8 34,000
9 55,000
Note: Total cost for 10 karma points: 143,000 nuyen.

And, of course, you have to come up with a worthy explanation for how
that money iis spent and the point is earned. Giving to a charity is
good enough... You have to do something that costs the above or more
money. (Passing up a Shadowrun to do something "worthwhile" might count
if the prospective pay matches the appropriate karma value.)

Another thing that might be fun: Not tell the players how much money they
need to get the karma point and let them accept lower pay on `runs to get
higher karma rewards. :)

Note: This is not saying that I will allow this in my games, only that
I'd consider the above system with an inital value of -at least- 1,000
nuyen.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 8
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 15:14:56 -0500
On Wed, 12 May 1999 15:32:33 -0400 Shawn Plummer
<plummer@***.cc.geneseo.edu> writes:
<SNIP>
> I approach this by allowing money to be converted to karma but it
>is a percentage If a runner has 100,000 nuyen then what does it matter
>if he gives up say $5000. I make them turn in hefty percentage of
>their total cash per good karma point they want. I also limit the
>amount of good karma that can be between runs. And also a minimum
>amount of nuyen that can be traded in for karma.

Okay. I have 100,000 nuyen. I spend 99k. I have 1,000 nuyen. How much
karma will you give if I saccrifice 1,000 nuyen (100%)? Or do you base
it off percentage of total nuyen earned? Either way, characters like
physical adepts (if they have been designed to get along without much
need for nuyen.) will get nasty fairly quickly depending on what your
exchange rate is.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 9
From: Bahamut Mighty Dragon Lord bahamut@**.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:34:59 -0400
On Wednesday, May 12, 1999 2:26 PM, Schizi@***.com [SMTP:Schizi@***.com] wrote:
> Quick Query: How does everyone use the option (or not use)
> My group is now 5 magic out of 6, and a few naggers really want to convert
> money into karma, myself, I think it devalues karma to have a price put on it
> ("I will donate 5000¥ to an orphanage, and that will net me how much
karma?"
> Just don't seem right)
> I have no problem with spending good karma to net some cash (sinking karma
> into which scratch off ticket to buy, etc.)
>
> What I have decided to allow:
> When the Johnson is hiring the team, before he names a price, a player has
> the option to waive the cash. ("No no, we couldn't take money for this, it is
> our civic duty") They must do it without knowing how much money they get, and
> they also do not know how much karma they will earn for the run.
>
> So, what does everyone else think?
>
>

Personally I just bribe the GM I find a dinner or 5 bucks works wonders.. :)
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:34:07 +1000
> Personally I just bribe the GM I find a dinner or 5 bucks works
> wonders.. :)

I had a long-standing rule... first player to buy me a drink during the
gaming night got one free karma point. (We used to game at a club, so
refreshments were on tap for a fee)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 11
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:47:05 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/99 11:34:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
robert.watkins@******.com writes:

> > Personally I just bribe the GM I find a dinner or 5 bucks works
> > wonders.. :)
>
> I had a long-standing rule... first player to buy me a drink during the
> gaming night got one free karma point. (We used to game at a club, so
> refreshments were on tap for a fee)

yeah, well, online campaigns have certain restrictions ya know. :-)
Message no. 12
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:45:50 -0500
: What I have decided to allow:
:When the Johnson is hiring the team, before he names a price, a player has
:the option to waive the cash. ("No no, we couldn't take money for this, it
is
:our civic duty") They must do it without knowing how much money they get,
and
:they also do not know how much karma they will earn for the run.
:
: So, what does everyone else think?


Most runs do not in any way resemble what could be considered "your
civic duty". :) If fact, I think its generally your civic duty to bilk
those Jhonsons for every cent you can, so they (or their employers) can't
spend it on other evil plots. The runners are gonna be really shocked when
the find out that their "civic duty" was furthering the cause of a bug hive
their Johnson (a good merge) was fronting for...
But, if you, as a GM, want to offer low cash runs with the assurance
that there will be a decent karmic payoff, thats fine, and is in fact fairly
common in our game and in SR modules. I'd offer them a choice of several
runs, ones with known payoffs (karma Vs cash) and ones that are complete
shot in the dark types (which should have a payoff just for survival, and
better payoff, cash and karma, if well resolved). The "risk / reward" would
have to be assessed through legwork and contacts, but certain Jhonsons tend
to aquire a rep for certain kinds of work, I think.

Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 02:02:30 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/99 2:31:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schizi@***.com
writes:

<< Quick Query: How does everyone use the option (or not use)
My group is now 5 magic out of 6, and a few naggers really want to convert
money into karma, myself, I think it devalues karma to have a price put on
it
("I will donate 5000¥ to an orphanage, and that will net me how much
karma?"
Just don't seem right)
I have no problem with spending good karma to net some cash (sinking karma
into which scratch off ticket to buy, etc.) >>

Don't look at it as "buying karma" ... look at it as "paying for training,
study materials, and general help in learning X, Y, and/or Z" ...

After all, I highly doubt that the average day in High School is worth even
one TEN thousandth of a karma point, or that each year in the lower grades
counts for that much either.

Yet, one can say, the average 18 to 20 year old has some 30 to 50 karma worth
of skills, and so on, given knowledge skill totals AND whatever active skills
s/he might have. Given that's only 15 years of schooling, at _best_ ... 2
karma per year?

Also keep in mind, much of the learning one does int eh first 2-5 years of
school is basic math and reading, and so is not part of the karma-gain
process. That'd put us up to 3-4 karma per year, at only 8-9 months per year
of study.

1 Good Karma per three months, as a (largely) inattentive child. Hmm.

Kind of makes the idea of paying for intensive (?) training more reasonable,
eh?

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 14
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 00:49:49 -0700
From: "Mongoose" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Subject: Re: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date sent: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:45:50 -0500
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

> Most runs do not in any way resemble what could be considered "your
> civic duty". :) If fact, I think its generally your civic duty to bilk
> those Jhonsons for every cent you can, so they (or their employers) can't
> spend it on other evil plots. The runners are gonna be really shocked when
> the find out that their "civic duty" was furthering the cause of a bug
hive
> their Johnson (a good merge) was fronting for...

I had a GM who kept coming up with what we called "Bleeding Heart Jobs".
Basicly they were runs that did not directly result in payment (indirect was
another matter) but were done for "Public" good. One run came from the
local street doc, and involved preventing the eviction of a group of squater
families by the Star for a Corp. While we were doing that someone else was
negoiating its purchase (at a better price because of our actions). No money
but some benefitial contacts. Another was rescuing the family of an Ork
activist from a Humanist gang,


David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 15
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 03:28:52 -0500
I had a GM who kept coming up with what we called "Bleeding Heart Jobs".
Basicly they were runs that did not directly result in payment (indirect was
another matter) but were done for "Public" good. One run came from the
local street doc, and involved preventing the eviction of a group of squater
families by the Star for a Corp. While we were doing that someone else was
negoiating its purchase (at a better price because of our actions). No money
but some benefitial contacts. Another was rescuing the family of an Ork
activist from a Humanist gang,


David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================

Well and good- we've done such things when we could. I'm just saying,
you don't always know before a run if its a REAL bleeding heart job, or if
you are being played for saps. Saps don't get extra karma, because they
aren't doing anybody any good- they may be doing harm, in fact. That "ork
activist" could have been some really nasty terrorist or something; unless
you checked your info really really carefully, you would not know until to
late.

Mongoose
Message no. 16
From: Shawn Plummer plummer@***.cc.geneseo.edu
Subject: Karma for cash (and vice versa)
Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:54:00 -0400
> On Wed, 12 May 1999 15:32:33 -0400 Shawn Plummer
> <plummer@***.cc.geneseo.edu> writes:
> <SNIP>
>> I approach this by allowing money to be converted to karma but it
>>is a percentage If a runner has 100,000 nuyen then what does it matter
>>if he gives up say $5000. I make them turn in hefty percentage of
>>their total cash per good karma point they want. I also limit the
>>amount of good karma that can be between runs. And also a minimum
>>amount of nuyen that can be traded in for karma.
>
> Okay. I have 100,000 nuyen. I spend 99k. I have 1,000 nuyen. How much
> karma will you give if I saccrifice 1,000 nuyen (100%)? Or do you base
> it off percentage of total nuyen earned? Either way, characters like
> physical adepts (if they have been designed to get along without much
> need for nuyen.) will get nasty fairly quickly depending on what your
> exchange rate is.
>

The way I deal with it say 1 karma is worth say 20% of your total
wealth. Or less (it really depends on much cash and assets they
have). And allow then to turn in only that amount. Then I
recalculate what 20% of there new wealth is. now they, in theory,
could do this forever, but as I said there is a minimum amount of
nuyen they have to turn in and I also can simply say you have gained
enough karma this way. Usually it is only used to get those few extra
karma someone needs between closely spaced sessions to just make
initiation or an increase in skill etc.
--
Plum
shawn@*******.net

"If we had no faults of our own, we would not take so much pleasure in
noticing those of others."
- Francois Duc De La Rochefoucauld

Further Reading

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