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Message no. 1
From: Oliver Mathes <drizzt@**.TU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Karma Pool ?
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 19:56:29 +0200
>>>>>[Hoi Chummers
I have a question concerning the Karma Pool (english is not my native tongue)
so forgive me if you think the text explains it self.

FASA SHADOWRUN 2nd EDITION SOFTCOVER
Page:190 "KARMA"

Of the Karma a character gets, 90 percent of it becomes Good Karma,
which is used over the long term for improving the character. Ten percent
goes into the character's Karma Pool, which is used in the short term
for general butt-saving. A character's Good Karma and Karma Pool are
tracked
separately. Always round off in favor of Good Karma.

If I round off in favor of Good Karma, then the only time I get a Point
for the Karma Pool is if the character earned 10 or more Karma Points
in a Run. Is that the correct ? it seems unlikely if one looks at the
official Shadowrun Adventures where Karma is normaly 8 or so for a
Run.]<<<<<
- The so far NAMELESS decker <07.19.2054/20:00:00 CET>
Message no. 2
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool ?
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 14:27:25 EDT
>>>>> "Oliver" == Oliver Mathes <drizzt@**.tu-berlin.de>
writes:

Oliver> If I round off in favor of Good Karma, then the only time I get a
Oliver> Point for the Karma Pool is if the character earned 10 or more
Oliver> Karma Points in a Run. Is that the correct ? it seems unlikely if
Oliver> one looks at the official Shadowrun Adventures where Karma is
Oliver> normaly 8 or so for a Run.

That's correct. Put it this way: every 10th point of Karma earned goes into
the Karma Pool.

Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> Northeastern's Stainless Steel Rat
PGP Public Key Block available upon request Ask about rat-pgp.el v1.6
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To defend/This is the Pact/But when life's scorned/And damage done
To avenge/This is the Pact --Blue Oyster Cult, Vengeance (The Pact)
Message no. 3
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool?
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 13:44:27 -0700
The so far NAMELESS decker said:

>>If I round off in favor of Good Karma, then the only time I get a Point
>>for the Karma Pool is if the character earned 10 or more Karma Points
>>in a Run. Is that the correct ? it seems unlikely if one looks at the
>> official Shadowrun Adventures where Karma is normaly 8 or so for a Run.

Very true if you take it literally. In my group, we have characters keep track
of total karma earned. Every tenth point goes into your karma pool, which need
to be kept track of seperately since it is almost always less then 10% of total
karma earned. Also according to the rulebook, they chance of someone having
heard of your character is based off of how much total karma you have earned so
you need to keep track of it anyway.

See Ya in Shadows,
Jason J Carter
The Nightstalker
Message no. 4
From: NATHANIEL MALLET <malln00@***.USHERB.CA>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 18:20:45 -0400
Hey all.
I've recently joined this mailing list. I haven't played all
that much, which is probably one reason I joined this mailing list,
to get good information from experienced players, and new ideas to
incorporate into the game. Although my mailbox is now always full and
some letters get deleted without reading (sorry, I just have too much
mail) I do try to read as much as I can. That said, a few things are
on my agenda for this mailing list.

1) Does anyone have any last minute tips on GMing a game?

I am GMing a game on Saturday which happens to be my first.
So obviously I need short things and notes so I keep the game
interesting and the players asking for more

2) What do you all think about GM playing and players GMing?

The people I play with would sometimes play and other times
GM. Since there is no seperate GM guide and player guide, we figure
this OK. Opinions?

3) The karma pool discussion: Is there such a thing as too much?

In my opinion: YES. Players that have had the same characters
for a couple of years have probably a huge pool, but I believe there
is such a thing as too much. I mean 350 dice?? Is that really
necessary. If you want a game to be challenging, you would have to
send in like, a terminator (the AHnold type) to even give challenge
to such a player. A save-your-ass thing. Saving your ass should be a
skin-of-my-teeth thing. 350 dice??? WAY too much.

4) In the future, please forgive me for not posting the original
letter in my replies. I am having problems with my editor, and until
I can find the time to play with it a little, I will try to give and
idea of what the person I am replying to said.

Well, thank for your time.

Nathaniel "Cod" Mallet

Signature later. 8)
Message no. 5
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 15:53:51 -0700
(Sigh)
A Karma Pool of 350 *does not* mean 350 dice. It means you can
buy rerolls, at 1 point for the 1st, 2 points for the 2nd, 3 points for
the 3rd and so on.... It means you can purchase Karmic dice *up* to, but
not exceeding, your skill or attribute (if it's an attribute test). It
means you can avoid 350 "Ooops!". And, it means that if you get a
success, you can burn it and buy up to 350 autosuccesses (but the Karma
Pool is gone).
Okay? Generalizations are sometimes counterproductive.

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 6
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 18:16:26 -0500
On Wed, 15 Jun 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> And, it means that if you get a
> success, you can burn it and buy up to 350 autosuccesses (but the Karma
> Pool is gone).

This is important if you are trying to kill that dragon with a butter knife.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or Blue Earth County
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 7
From: "David L. Hoff" <DLHOFF@****.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 21:42:00 CDT
orry about that lasd



q
Message no. 8
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 12:34:34 -0700
On Wed, 15 Jun 1994, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

>
> This is important if you are trying to kill that dragon with a butter knife.

Ah, but since the Dragon has Hardened Armor the butter knife
can't penetrate and do damage ...
(Ducks to avoid flying carp)

THWAP!
>
> ____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 9
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 14:59:46 -0500
> This is important if you are trying to kill that dragon with a butter knife.

Dragon domestic disputes, maybe?

What if Karma pools applied to inanimate objects? Would that well-
travelled bowling ball be able to drop from high distance, if it got once
success total, be able to use up a 350+ Karma Pool and smash a troll out of
existance, even if it only fell from two feet? You never know with these th
things...think of the fun you could have with grenades (if they were experienced
they could blow their Karma pool too...)

*Ducking the thwaps*

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 10
From: Vincent Pellerin <Vincent.Pellerin@***.GMC.ULAVAL.CA>
Subject: karma pool
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 14:52:35 -0400
>>>Gary Writes:
>>> first of all you can't use your Karma to reroll failures in a
>>> non-combat situation... and because making a spelllock
>>> is so detailed, making one in combat is impossible.

>>Sebastain replies:
>>Well, we allow Karma in socail situations, and the matrix,
>>and other places: thje deciding factor is wether it is germain
>>to the plot in progress. Karma only in combat is too limiting,
>>and encourages combat.

>Gary Writes back
>Actually I agree, I would vote that you can't use it in
>non-opposed situations. I would rather someone use
>a karma pool point to reroll a negotation failure than
>have them go to combat and end up using that point
>to keep from getting killed.

Just putting my 2 nuyen on this, in our game we can use the karma pool for
anything, resisted or not, combat or not. This could look munchkinist but
we added one catch.... The karma pool refresh only once per run, at the end
of it when the good karma is given. So we can use it on personnal projects,
healing from cyberware implantation, spell learning etc. But this is less
karma pool for the futur run, so be careful not to take to much or you'll be
caught with your pants down during a crisis.

________________________________________________________________________
| _____ "You are yong only once....... |
| \ \ / ......... but you can be immature all yourlife !" |
| \ __/ / -heard somewhere, i don't remember |
| \ / |
| \_/ Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca |
|________________________________________________________________________|
Message no. 11
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: karma pool
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 14:00:29 BST
Personally, I allow Karma use for almost any skill/stat check,
about the only thing that can't be re-rolled is Initiative (how
do you determine what a success is), and things where you roll
a set number of dice, rahter than the number being based on a
skill or stat (2d6 for Star response time).

OTOH, in a lot of situations, the characters will almost definitely
have to 'burn' karma to survive if they play stupid, and I call when
an 'episode' has started, and hence when Karam refreshes, and they
change a lot slower than they do in real shadowrun adventures (is
an episode supposed to be one of the chapter headings? That's much too
fast a refresh rate).

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 12
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@*******.tamu.edu>
Subject: Karma Pool
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 13:47:51 -0500 (CDT)
Well here's my 2 nuyen.

The way I read the rules a player MUST contribute 10% of his recieved
karma (rounding up). So unless you somehow manage to get above 10 points
at one time you MUST give up one point always.

For example
You roleplayed well, but accidentally left the data chip sitting on the
barstool next to you where it was sat upon by a big troll (Doh!). The
rest of your party proceede to beat your character within an inch of his
life. After all is said and done you receive only 2 points 10% of 2 is
0.2 rounding up to the nearest whole point gives one to the pool and one
for you


That's my story and I'm sticking to it

regards

Bill
Message no. 13
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:39:18 +0100
William Monroe Ashe said on 13:47/24 Jul 96...

> The way I read the rules a player MUST contribute 10% of his recieved
> karma (rounding up). So unless you somehow manage to get above 10 points
> at one time you MUST give up one point always.

So you say that, if you earn 2 karma for an adventure, you put 1 of it
into your karma pool? We did that too when SRII first came out, but after
a few adventures we recalculated the pools by looking at the *total*
amount of karma received and taking 10% of that (rounded nearest). If
done the other way, you'll find that characters going on short/small
adventures will get lots more KP than those on mega-huge, world-saving
campaigns...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Look at my cat... Why can't I live like that?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:48:19 -0500
At 12:39 PM 7/25/96 +0100, you wrote:
>William Monroe Ashe said on 13:47/24 Jul 96...
>
>> The way I read the rules a player MUST contribute 10% of his recieved
>> karma (rounding up). So unless you somehow manage to get above 10 points
>> at one time you MUST give up one point always.

But we're not doing that in our game sessions. Check out the first three
adventures we've run: First one had an average of 9 karma, 1 went to the
Karma Pool. Next one had an average of 8 karma, 1 went to the Karma Pool.
['bout 17 total karma] Next one had an average of 4, none went to Karma
Pool. At this point we're at an average of 21 Total Karma and most
characters have 2 Karma Pool (about 10% of all Karma earned). When the
average Total Karma hits or nears 30, one more point will go into the Karma
Pool.

If a new character shows up, we start him/her on its own Total Karma track.
The first adventure that character is in, one point of Karma received goes
to Karma Pool. Then as that runner nears the next milestone (20), another
Karma Pool point.

>So you say that, if you earn 2 karma for an adventure, you put 1 of it
>into your karma pool? We did that too when SRII first came out, but after
>a few adventures we recalculated the pools by looking at the *total*
>amount of karma received and taking 10% of that (rounded nearest). If
>done the other way, you'll find that characters going on short/small
>adventures will get lots more KP than those on mega-huge, world-saving
>campaigns...

Oddly enough, my gamers never seem to remember that they have a Karma Pool
or a Team Karma Pool to draw from. And it could have helped them out in a
big way before.

-Thomas Deeny
Art Director, K&L Advertising
Cartoonist at Large

"Oh happy day! I've discovered a surprise Ding Dong in my pants!"
-Robin Joynes' brother-in-law "Dave".
Message no. 15
From: "John R. Wicker II" <jrwick00@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 12:28:06 -0400 (EDT)
>Oddly enough, my gamers never seem to remember that they have a Karma Pool
>or a Team Karma Pool to draw from. And it could have helped them out in a
>big way before.

Mine never forget team karma, and its helped them out a couple of times
where nothing else could have. But they also have the tendency to roll a
bunch of failures and then look up at everyone with a pleading look, saying
"Team karma?" :-)

This brings to mind another question, concerning pool dice: In my game, I
allow players to roll pool dice as needed. For example, in firing at Mr.
Mojo Merc at long range, they would normally roll thier firearms dice. If
they're not happy with their number of successes, I allow them to "throw in
some combat pool." The same holds true for magical success tests. In short,
instead of exhausting pool on one-shot rolls, I allow them to roll pool as
needed for success tests.

How do other GM's and players handle this aspect of the game? I suspect my
system is sometimes over-generous to the players, but that's the main reason
I don't give them an individual karma pool. Team karma is allowed, but
that's all I give them.


"If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.
Embrace the revolution!"
-A found poem, 1995

This mail brought to you by: John R. Wicker II
Free-lance writer, Full time student, Founder: The Jagged Edge, Inc.
E-mail: jrwick00@***.uky.edu
Message no. 16
From: Fastjack <uc298@*****.ALUMNOS.UNICAN.ES>
Subject: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:55:30 +0100
I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.So
if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
What do you think?
Message no. 17
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 03:43:16 -0500
At 08:55 AM 12/17/96 +0100, you wrote:
>I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
>karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
>kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.So
>if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
>players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
>What do you think?
>
That's pretty much how we play it, except that we normally have it refresh
each game session... Unless, of course, we have to quit in the middle of
some action, in which case spent karma carries over to the next game session...

Bull
Message no. 18
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 02:19:39 -0000
> I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
> karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
> kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.So
> if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
> players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
> What do you think?

Our group was starting to face the same thing. Some of the players had
individual karma pools near 18 points after a while, and the team karma
pool had grown to something like 45. Basically it was recognized this was
unbalancing things and making the players near god-like on occasion.

Caric and I came up with a solution our group is play-testing now.
Basically the standard PC Karma Pool is divided into three seperate pools
(plus two special pools) that govern different aspects. We feel this allows
different characters in a group to focus more on specific areas, letting
the PC's develop a knack if you will. Following is the mail that was
distributed to my group, hopefully it'll explain things.

So far I've heard positive feedback on how it's worked. Ask questions if
you have any.

@>--,--'--- Loki

********************

Following is a list of the new Karma Pools (which replace the standard one)
and what Attributes/Skills they govern. Every PC will have the three basic
pools. The last two pools are the special pools and only certain characters
will begin with either one.
Magic Karma is only accessible to a magically active character (a PC with
a Magic Attribute). Vehicle Karma is only obtainable by a Rigger (a PC with
a VCR cybnertically implanted).

Each pool starts with one point. A player can then add the starting Karma
Pool point (or two points in the case of a metahuman) he receives for his
character to any of these pools. Likewise, Karma Pool points earned during
game play may be allocated to the pool of the player's choosing.

Players with special skills for their characters should consult their GM
and note which Karma Pool would govern these skills.

PHYSICAL KARMA

Attributes:
Body
Strength
Quickness
Reaction

Skills:
Armed Combat
Athletics
Firearms
Gunnery
Projectile Weapons
Throwing Weapons
Stealth
Unarmed Combat

MENTAL KARMA

Attributes:
Intelligence
Willpower
Reaction

Skills:
All B/R Skills
Biology
Biotech
Computer
Computer Theory
Cybertechnology
Demolitions
Electronics
Military Theory
Psychology
Physical Sciences
Sociology

**New Decker PC's begin with an additional point of Mental Karma

SOCIAL KARMA

Attributes:
Charisma

Skills:
Etiquette
Instruction
Interrogation
Leadership
Negotiation

<i>Magical Karma</i>

Attributes:
Magic

Skills:
Conjuring
Enchanting
Magical Theory
Psychometry
Sorcery

**Magic Karma may be used by a magician to augment drain and spell
resitance tests.

<i>Vehicle Karma</i>

Attributes:
None

Skills:
Boats
- Motorboat
- Sailboat
Ground Vehicles
- Bike
- Car
- Hovercraft
Aircraft
- Rotor
- Vector Thrust
- Winged

** A rigger may also use Vehicle Karma to augment Control Pool related
tests.
Message no. 19
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 01:29:13 -0800
On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Fastjack wrote:

> I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
> karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
> kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.So
> if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
> players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
> What do you think?
>

You could simply make the cost of increasing the Karma pool similar to
that of increasing a skill or attribute. If you want to raise the Karma
pool by 1 point, then you have to spend either 1x the new rating, or 2x
the new rating.

That would quickly stop any group from getting to the 18+ point very
rapidly, but admittedly doesn't help much if it's already there.

You could also simply say that in order for the Team Karma pool to
increase, all the team members have to pay the cost. I.e. if a team of 5
runners wants to add 1 point to the Team pool, all 5 would have to pay the
1 karma cost (each) before the point would be added.

~Tim
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 11:36:15 +0100
Fastjack said on 8:55/17 Dec 96...

> I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
> karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma

15 Karma Pool after a few months? Sounds like you award a lot of Karma...

> spent all to kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh
> in the game.So if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the
> adventure.So your players will think twice before spend karma in useless
> actions. What do you think?

If you think the standard Karma Pool rules make the game too easy for the
players, go ahead. I've never really found a problem with the Karma Pool
unbalancing the game even with characters with 10 to 15 points in it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
All you need to do is close your eyes.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 21
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 22:01:44 +1100
On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Fastjack wrote:

> I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
> karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
> kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.So
> if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
> players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
> What do you think?
>

I generally would like the karma pool refreshing every session rule.
However, due to the unusual time schedule that my group uses (either too
short like 1hr, or marathon runs of a day), I've had to change it.

Since I normally write my own adventures/runs, I segregate it into
sections and the pool is refreshed when a new section is reached (the
PC's have no idea when this is though).

My other suggestion would be to increase the cost of the karma pool.

Just a thought, karma pool is meant to be an indication of the
"luckiness" basically of the inidividual/group (depending on which pool).
So, if you the GM deem it's use as "mismanagement", then just punish the
characters or something.

A character's aura may be of a certain glow with a high pool. When the
karma pool is used excessively in one encounter, then alot of that aura
would be converted to mana and some sort of effect. Hence, this could
attract some paranormal or free spirit or something.

I haven't expressed myself too well above, but you get my basic gist.

Anyway, just my two cents/nuyen worth.

Shaman
Message no. 22
From: Fastjack <uc298@*****.ALUMNOS.UNICAN.ES>
Subject: karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 11:51:21 +0100
well,the players played Harlequin and harlequins back in a few time,so
imagine how many karma they received...
Message no. 23
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 11:25:57 GMT
Tim Cooper writes

> On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Fastjack wrote:
>
> > I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
> > karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
> > kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.So
> > if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
> > players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
> > What do you think?
> >
Well as your other post, multiple trips to Harlequin / HB is probably
1/2 the problem.
Otherwise : official rues are the first reroll is 1 karma, the next 2
etc, so 15 points is only 5 rerolls, very few GM's play that, most of
us like to leave 1 reroll a point so when some poor slot gets shot
with a panther cannon they stand a chance of 'tripping over at a most
convenient moment!' [ie dodging the thing!]

my solution is to waard karma pool differently.
As clarified in the compainion SR2 is one pool at
0,10,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,90,100,110, etc good karma total.

i give it out
0,10,20,30,40,60,80,100,125,150,175,200,225,250,275,300,333,366,400,
433,466,500,550,600,650 etc (even the hardest NPC has yet to crest
1,000. Karma despite my efforts!).
This gives you 3 or 4 pool plus moderate team quite quick for handy
butt saving but limits the rise above a few points in reserve which
usually just gets spent rerolling 'shoot em before they move!' once
they have enough reserve left for a few dodge rerolls as well.

> You could also simply say that in order for the Team Karma pool to
> increase, all the team members have to pay the cost. I.e. if a team of 5
> runners wants to add 1 point to the Team pool, all 5 would have to pay the
> 1 karma cost (each) before the point would be added.
>
i'm affraid all that will do is encourage no team pool donations as
they gain nothing and lose a lot.
Lose 1 each, gain 1 team one member can spend, think not, a @ donated
= 1 team might work as team pool is more useful than personal, for eg
'all team so the riggers van full of PC's can dodge......' manouvers.

Mark
Message no. 24
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 07:58:19 -0500
Bull wrote:

> At 08:55 AM 12/17/96 +0100, you wrote:

> >I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
> >karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
> >kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.So
> >if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
> >players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
> >What do you think?

> That's pretty much how we play it, except that we normally have it refresh
> each game session... Unless, of course, we have to quit in the middle of
> some action, in which case spent karma carries over to the next game
> session...

I have seen a couple of ways of doing this. First, I have seen GM's
play with no karma pool, just good karma (only the mean ones) ;)
Second, I have seen GM's rule that karma refreshes once a game session.
Third, I have seen GM's rule that it's treated a lot like WoD time
measurements. Your karma pool refreshes after you are out of the
situation at hand (generally combat). Thus, if you get in a fire fight
at the beginning of the game and use some of your combat pool, it will
refresh after the fight. Keep in mind, however, that a raid upon a corp
or whatever is considered one combat (even though you may enter and
leave combat several times during that activity). This makes runs more
challenging, and keeps the small fights quick and deadly. I prefer this
method over the others. :)

> Bull

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 25
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:03:11 -0500
> On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Fastjack wrote:

> > I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
> > karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
> > kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.So
> > if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
> > players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
> > What do you think?

Also, I forgot to mention in my last post that I have never played in a
group that had team karma. It seems to be WAY too overpowerful.
Besides, solid teams aren't always realistic in SR. Thus, personal
karma is fine. If you discover that the pools are building too fast,
perhaps you are awarding karma too easily. You could require a greater
feat of guts in order to get guts karma, etc.

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 26
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:16:43 GMT
Justin Pinnow writes

> Mark Steedman wrote:
> >
> > Tim Cooper writes
> >
> > > On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Fastjack wrote:
> > >
> > > > I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same
character,the
> > > > karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all
to
> > > > kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the
game.So
> > > > if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
> > > > players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
> > > > What do you think?
> > > >
> > Well as your other post, multiple trips to Harlequin / HB is probably
> > 1/2 the problem.
> > Otherwise : official rues are the first reroll is 1 karma, the next 2
> > etc, so 15 points is only 5 rerolls, very few GM's play that, most of
> > us like to leave 1 reroll a point so when some poor slot gets shot
> > with a panther cannon they stand a chance of 'tripping over at a most
> > convenient moment!' [ie dodging the thing!]
>
> I agree that running the characters through those adventures is probably
> a decent part of your problem.
>
> Also, a clarification. Every reroll costs only 1 point of karma unless
> you are re-rerolling a failure. In other words, if you roll some dice
> to succeed at a test and decide to reroll failures, this costs you 1
> point. If you choose to reroll the remaining failures, it will cost you
> 2 karma points, etc.
>
Yes i did mean of one dice roll, not each subsequent roll, but had
rather assumed that was implied.

> Justin
> --
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> Justin Pinnow
> jpinnow@*****.edu
>

Mark
Message no. 27
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 14:47:44 +0000
On 17 Dec 96 at 8:55, Fastjack wrote:

> I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
> karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
> kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.
[snip]
I found it better to refresh the karma pool in irregular intervals. Not every
session, not before or after each fight, not once an adventure. When I think I
threw enough opposition against players, I'll refresh the Karma pool for them.
Maybe. Or not. It's a good way to advance the tension, and prevent the players
from relying on their pool too much.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | 'Hate is a force of|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| attraction. Hate is|
| \___ __/ | | just love with its|
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* |back turned' - Terry|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me |Pratchett-Masquerade|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 28
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 08:09:54 -0700
Fastjack wrote:
|
|I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
|karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
|kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.So
|if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
|players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
|What do you think?

Well, I'll throw in my two cents.

I ran into the same problem when one of my players went
over 30. What I do now is:

Refresh the Karma Pool at the end of combat (a planned
combat, not if the characters get in a fight just to
refresh their Karma Pool). And, I'm running adventures
with less combat.

I don't allow Karma Pool to be spent for re-rolls.

I do allow Karma Pool to be spent on automatic successes,
at the rate equal to the TN of the test divided by 6 (round
up) per success. (A TN of 8 would equal a cost of 2 Karma
Pool points per success.) This is not a permanent
expenditure. And, at least one natural success is required
before Karma Pool can be spent in this fashion.

So far it's working great. The game is moving along much
quicker, and the PCs are being a lot more careful now.
And, most importantly, I can run fun adventures without
sweating the numbers.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 29
From: Autumn / Shatterglass <laughingcrow@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 08:15:16 PST
Sash...

Just don't forget to do it... Re-new their Kharma at the
appointed time, I mean. It could get really UGLY...

Maybe your players would pipe up and remind you, but mine wouldn't.
They'd just figure I was up to something devious...


--Autumn
Message no. 30
From: Autumn / Shatterglass <laughingcrow@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 08:08:56 PST
Justin....

Why wouldn't a stable team be realistic?

In our games we tend to each have a number of different characters...
Forming something of a "Pool" of possible combinations... Occasionally
new characters come in to replace old ones who have retired or been
killed... But the Whole... The Group itself... the pool as a whole...
remains stable. They (all of the Pool characters) have a common base of operations, a
common major contact, and a common leader.... No matter who
is choosen to take a specific assignment.

The exact personel taken on a run is variable... On any given "assignment" I
might choose to take Shatterglass, or I might choose to take Gabriel,
or EB... Any of whom would be included under the Team heading, because the Team is
considered the larger entity... Not just the circle of people along on that particular
run.

How do we pull this off? Easily enough... Any of the members of the
larger group can Moonlight as they choose (READ: Be played in non-pool
related games), but when they do they don't get to use the pool's
kharma. That only comes into play when they're on one of the pool's
missions. Personal Kharma they can do with as they please... no matter
WHO they're running with... And they can still contribute to the kharma
of other teams OUTSIDE of the pool, if they spend enough time running
with them.

That's how you manage to keep Team Kharma even though the exact membership on any given
run is variable. It works as long as the runners have that
common base of operations, and that common leadership... Which,
admittedly, might not suit all runner's personalities, or all gamer's styles of play. For
us, it works. Our runners are at least nominally a part
of an NPC named Starlight's "stable" of associates. That lends both
unification and stability... And you always know who to call for back-up.


--Autumn
Message no. 31
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 13:02:04 -0500
Autumn / Shatterglass wrote:

> Justin....

> Why wouldn't a stable team be realistic?

What I meant to convey is that in SR it isn't always realistic for there
to be a steady team of characters that always work together. This is
because, as with any cyberpunk type world, people don't just inherintly
trust others very often (those that want to stay alive, anyway). Thus,
often times you will find that many of the characters have a difficult
time becoming anything more than an occasional co-worker to other
members of the current party. It's not like $$&$ where you have a group
of people who always put their lives on the line for their other party
members. In SR, there are so many subplots and personal objectives to
obtain, everyone has secrets and enemies...getting close to someone
makes you vulnerable...that doesn't happen too often with shadowrunners.

Thus, you often times get some people that run together sometimes, but
not always, and that trust each other just enough to get the job done.
However, this doesn't constitute a group of people so closely knit that
their karma becomes a collective of positive energy to be drawn upon in
times of need. Thus, in my opinion, you may not always have a "group"
that warrents a group karma pool.

> In our games we tend to each have a number of different characters...
> Forming something of a "Pool" of possible combinations... Occasionally
> new characters come in to replace old ones who have retired or been
> killed... But the Whole... The Group itself... the pool as a whole...
> remains stable. They (all of the Pool characters) have a common base of operations, a
common major contact, and a common leader.... No matter who
> is choosen to take a specific assignment.

> The exact personel taken on a run is variable... On any given "assignment"
I might choose to take Shatterglass, or I might choose to take Gabriel,
> or EB... Any of whom would be included under the Team heading, because the Team is
considered the larger entity... Not just the circle of people along on that particular
run.

> How do we pull this off? Easily enough... Any of the members of the
> larger group can Moonlight as they choose (READ: Be played in non-pool
> related games), but when they do they don't get to use the pool's
> kharma. That only comes into play when they're on one of the pool's
> missions. Personal Kharma they can do with as they please... no matter
> WHO they're running with... And they can still contribute to the kharma
> of other teams OUTSIDE of the pool, if they spend enough time running
> with them.

> That's how you manage to keep Team Kharma even though the exact membership on any
given run is variable. It works as long as the runners have that
> common base of operations, and that common leadership... Which,
> admittedly, might not suit all runner's personalities, or all gamer's styles of play.
For us, it works. Our runners are at least nominally a part
> of an NPC named Starlight's "stable" of associates. That lends both
> unification and stability... And you always know who to call for back-up.

That seems perfectly feasable as a possible solution. Keep in mind that
I feel that personal karma pools are beneficial enough to not require
team karma pools.

> --Autumn

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 32
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:26:00 +1100
> well,the players played Harlequin and harlequins back in a few time,so
> imagine how many karma they received...

And then let's not forget Paradise Lost, wohoo, 50 karma...

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 10:45:51 +1100
> That seems perfectly feasable as a possible solution. Keep in mind that
> I feel that personal karma pools are beneficial enough to not require
> team karma pools.

That is a valid point. Our primary use for team karma, whether it's
reasonable in game world terms, is reasonable in game mechanic terms. let
me explain:

Say you lose your favourite PC to... say... a nuke at Ground Zero. Dead
and gone. So you start a new character to fit in with the old group - all
of whom are on maybe 100 Karma total, and you're just starting out. Now,
the GM *could* award you some Starting Karma to ease your transition,
but that hampers roleplaying because you're getting something for nothing.

So you've got a Karma pool of *1* (2 if you're *lucky, *and* not playing
More Metahumans) while everyone else in the team is going to have 10. So,
unless the GM tones down the threats to let you live, which means the rest
of the team waltzes through the opposition, you're going to be the first
to die again.

This happens over and over, and in fact the problem is exacerbated as the
older characters get even better, require more threat to threaten them,
and have even more personal Karma pool. So, Team Karma is there to allow
the new team member to survive after he's used his own Karma pool, up to a
point where he's good enough (and has enough Karma pool) to take on the
enemies fair and square. If you don't have Team Karma, his only other
options are a) Die again. b) Cower at the back of the party like a
low-level AD&D mage, and never be able to do anything for fear of imminent
expiry.

Just my 0.02, now I hope you see why Team Karma can be pretty important.

That said, we've never had a single PC die - more through clever playing
than GM kindness, I'd like to think.

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 21:25:05 -0500
At 10:26 AM 12/18/96 +1100, you wrote:
>> well,the players played Harlequin and harlequins back in a few time,so
>> imagine how many karma they received...
>
>And then let's not forget Paradise Lost, wohoo, 50 karma...
>
>Lady Jestyr
>
YOU GOT WHAT FOR PARADISE LOST????

That adventure took us several sessions to play, was a bitch and a half, and
I think we may have gotten 10 or 12 Karma each for it (There were also only
two of us playing it...).

And that 10 to 12 is a High number for our games...

Hell... 50 Karma takes about six months, playing once a week...

Bull

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Why am I here?"
-Robin Williams, "Good Morning Vietnam"
Message no. 35
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 14:08:18 +1100
> YOU GOT WHAT FOR PARADISE LOST????
>
> That adventure took us several sessions to play, was a bitch and a half, and
> I think we may have gotten 10 or 12 Karma each for it (There were also only
> two of us playing it...).

I can't remember exactly how much we got, but I remember that the GM we
had at the time had his favourite character along, so he bent the rules
a bit. We made the deal with the dragon (Feathered Serpent? I can't
remember) and then, after a bit of conversation, one of the party members
(Hamish, you may understand his actions on ShadowTK a bit better after
this) fired up his minigun (don't ask) and chewed the thing down in a hail
of bullets. So the GM, being a worse rules-raper than any of the rest of
us put together, gave us the Karma awards both for negotiating and
killing. I hated that campaign.

> And that 10 to 12 is a High number for our games...

Hmmm... if you go by the Karma guides in the published modules, they're a
bit stingy. If you use the table in SRII, it's a lot more generous. Our
current group uses that, and in about 4 months RT, playing on average once
a week, we've scored 150-180 karma for ourselves. Mind you, we earn that.
Most adventures the GM comes up with, he expects us to fight our way
through, and we think, plan, bribe, blackmail and negotiate our way
through instead.

Eg. a recent game where we had to steal an objet d'art from a collector's
home. He was out of the country, but his son and a friend were staying in
the house. The son and friend turned out to be Lone Star SWAT cops - we
were not keen on running in there. And we also spotted Lone Star Internal
Affairs teams watching the house. So we did a bit of investigation (thank
god for my Lone Star contact) and discovered that the two cops were under
investigation for an incident in the middle of an all out gang way - there
was a SWAT team in position, and an FRT team. Recipe for trouble. The SWAT
and FRT teams wound up spending more time shooting at each other than the
gangers, and the remnants of the FRT team were pulling strings to have
these two (the remnants of the SWAT team) put away for good. So we got all
the evidence, proved that it was the FRT's fault, and "leaned" on the SWAT
cops - they wound up "accidentally leaving the back door open" next time
they went for pizza.

A lot more convoluted than just busting in and shooting everything in
sight, but this way our characters aren't wanted by Lone Star, and we
deserved the 9 or so Karma we got...

<end rant>

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 36
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 22:32:23 -0500
At 02:08 PM 12/18/96 +1100, you wrote:

>I can't remember exactly how much we got, but I remember that the GM we
>had at the time had his favourite character along, so he bent the rules
>a bit. We made the deal with the dragon (Feathered Serpent? I can't
>remember) and then, after a bit of conversation, one of the party members
>(Hamish, you may understand his actions on ShadowTK a bit better after
>this) fired up his minigun (don't ask) and chewed the thing down in a hail
>of bullets. So the GM, being a worse rules-raper than any of the rest of
>us put together, gave us the Karma awards both for negotiating and
>killing. I hated that campaign.
>
We liked it alright, but then, we sorta had to play it smart. Our GM has
made us pay dearly everytime we go Munchkin. I don't have any idea how many
times I've replaced my big toys, and have used them maybe once.

Minigun-I've owned four, and only used it once, and that was mearly to keep
a bunch of gangers bottled up while Johnny dealt with someone...

Heavily converted GMC Bulldog with heavy Armor, and a couple Auto-Cannons.
Definatly a match for a Citymaster. I've rebuilt it or replaced it five
times, and never fired a shot with it.

Rockets- Johnny used one once to take out a dragon, and then it turned out
that the dragon used an illusion spell to MAKE us think we nuked it, and
later he and his pet assasin came back to haunt us. (His name was Perry:))
And Bull's got a whole stock of them now...

So n general, we have the stuff in case we need it, but if we need it, we
don't have access to it... Oh well...:)

>> And that 10 to 12 is a High number for our games...
>
>Hmmm... if you go by the Karma guides in the published modules, they're a
>bit stingy. If you use the table in SRII, it's a lot more generous. Our
>current group uses that, and in about 4 months RT, playing on average once
>a week, we've scored 150-180 karma for ourselves. Mind you, we earn that.
>Most adventures the GM comes up with, he expects us to fight our way
>through, and we think, plan, bribe, blackmail and negotiate our way
>through instead.
>
Wow... That would be great to get... Bull's been around for three years
now, and has almost 350 total karma...

Bull

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Why am I here?"
-Robin Williams, "Good Morning Vietnam"
Message no. 37
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 22:26:53 -0800
On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> I ran into the same problem when one of my players went
> over 30. What I do now is:
>
> Refresh the Karma Pool at the end of combat (a planned
> combat, not if the characters get in a fight just to
> refresh their Karma Pool). And, I'm running adventures
> with less combat.

If your PC's are thinking that way, they might as well stop playing 'real'
SR and pick up some Nintendo version. That sounds like a serious case of
"roll-playing".

In reference to WHEN the Karma pool refreshes, do like someone said in an
earlier post (sorry I forget who), and view the game in WoD terms. That
is, in terms of "scenes", and have the pool refresh at the beginning of
each new scene. (A scene would be anytime where there is a little "break"
in the game, like where you could put a commercial, or fade out if it was
on TV) This a lot closer to the way it was intended.

(Now, having said that, I guess the root of the whole problem is not when
the pool refreshes, but that the pool is too large..so your stuck finding
ways to soak up the points...)

>
> -David
>

~Tim
Message no. 38
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 22:04:57 +1100
On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, Tim Cooper wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Dec 1996, David Buehrer wrote:
>
> > I ran into the same problem when one of my players went
> > over 30. What I do now is:
> >
> > Refresh the Karma Pool at the end of combat (a planned
> > combat, not if the characters get in a fight just to
> > refresh their Karma Pool). And, I'm running adventures
> > with less combat.
>
> If your PC's are thinking that way, they might as well stop playing 'real'
> SR and pick up some Nintendo version. That sounds like a serious case of
> "roll-playing".
>
> In reference to WHEN the Karma pool refreshes, do like someone said in an
> earlier post (sorry I forget who), and view the game in WoD terms. That
> is, in terms of "scenes", and have the pool refresh at the beginning of
> each new scene. (A scene would be anytime where there is a little "break"
> in the game, like where you could put a commercial, or fade out if it was
> on TV) This a lot closer to the way it was intended.

Uhh... I think that was me, though I don't know what you meant about WoD.

Shaman

> (Now, having said that, I guess the root of the whole problem is not when
> the pool refreshes, but that the pool is too large..so your stuck finding
> ways to soak up the points...)
>
> >
> > -David
> >
>
> ~Tim
>
Message no. 39
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 11:26:20 GMT
The Jestyr writes

[CHOP]
>
> Just my 0.02, now I hope you see why Team Karma can be pretty important.
>
more good points.

> That said, we've never had a single PC die - more through clever playing
> than GM kindness, I'd like to think.
>
Not lost any PC's ! well done.
I haven't had any of mine killed yet, generally by knowing when to
duck and diving for cover before trying to kill the bad guys.

I have as a GM however done in quite a few. Getting their throats
slit by gangers seems to be a favourite, or using magic while a
mundanes covering them with a gun and expecting not to get shot :(

It's notable that the more experienced players don't lose characers,
i think all the dead ones were stupid, got caught in the middle of
really heavy fire (they need not have been standing in had they done
better) or reacted badly to 'you now have a cotrex bomb'. (5
installed so far :)', 2 detonated, 3 removed. (but they didn't solve
the blood samples :) hehe.he..., pity that lot retired)

Mark
Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 12:36:44 +0100
Fastjack said on 11:51/17 Dec 96...

> well,the players played Harlequin and harlequins back in a few time,so
> imagine how many karma they received...

Not hard to imagine :) My players about doubled the total Karma they'd
earned by just one adventure...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Nothing's changed. Nothing's right.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 41
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 09:08:12 GMT
Tim Cooper (tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU) wrote:
: In reference to WHEN the Karma pool refreshes, do like someone said in an
: ...
: (Now, having said that, I guess the root of the whole problem is not when
: the pool refreshes, but that the pool is too large..so your stuck finding
: ways to soak up the points...)

We never ran into any Karma-Pool problems. In our group we keep it in
the "Whenever the GM says so, the pool refreshes" - you cannot count
on "after the next corner it will refresh", that way characters ONLY
use it when it is VITAL for their survival which is basically the way
it was planned IMHO.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 42
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 07:43:27 -0500
The Jestyr wrote:

> > That seems perfectly feasable as a possible solution. Keep in mind that
> > I feel that personal karma pools are beneficial enough to not require
> > team karma pools.

> That is a valid point. Our primary use for team karma, whether it's
> reasonable in game world terms, is reasonable in game mechanic terms. let
> me explain:

> Say you lose your favourite PC to... say... a nuke at Ground Zero. Dead
> and gone. So you start a new character to fit in with the old group - all
> of whom are on maybe 100 Karma total, and you're just starting out. Now,
> the GM *could* award you some Starting Karma to ease your transition,
> but that hampers roleplaying because you're getting something for nothing.

> So you've got a Karma pool of *1* (2 if you're *lucky, *and* not playing
> More Metahumans) while everyone else in the team is going to have 10. So,
> unless the GM tones down the threats to let you live, which means the rest
> of the team waltzes through the opposition, you're going to be the first
> to die again.

> This happens over and over, and in fact the problem is exacerbated as the
> older characters get even better, require more threat to threaten them,
> and have even more personal Karma pool. So, Team Karma is there to allow
> the new team member to survive after he's used his own Karma pool, up to a
> point where he's good enough (and has enough Karma pool) to take on the
> enemies fair and square. If you don't have Team Karma, his only other
> options are a) Die again. b) Cower at the back of the party like a
> low-level AD&D mage, and never be able to do anything for fear of imminent
> expiry.

> Just my 0.02, now I hope you see why Team Karma can be pretty important.

I certainly understand your problem. However, if the new character is
the only one using the team karma, how is this different from awarding
him/her personal karma? The PC is getting access to a karma pool that
he wouldn't have access to normally, right? Seems like the same thing
-- some karma to use for nothing. I feel this affects roleplaying about
the same as giving him personal karma.

As far as a better solution (IMO), why not be a creative GM and have the
threats attack the characters appropriate to the PC's skills? The best
way to give a new PC a fair chance without giving him free karma is to
have the weaker opposing force(s) attack him as compared to the more
powerful forces....this takes some prior planning because you want the
opposition to attack logically, but it can be done. I also think that
this keeps the character away from free karma and on his toes, because
it's the GM who declares what opposition to throw at the PCs....and this
will always get nastier as time goes by. :)

> That said, we've never had a single PC die - more through clever playing
> than GM kindness, I'd like to think.

I dunno, I don't think ANY group of shadowrunners would make it long
without a little GM kindness...or (more appropriately) lack of GM
nastiness. ;)

<SNIP>

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 43
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 07:54:49 -0500
Calvin Hsieh wrote:

<Snip>

> > In reference to WHEN the Karma pool refreshes, do like someone said in an
> > earlier post (sorry I forget who), and view the game in WoD terms. That
> > is, in terms of "scenes", and have the pool refresh at the beginning
of
> > each new scene. (A scene would be anytime where there is a little
"break"
> > in the game, like where you could put a commercial, or fade out if it was
> > on TV) This a lot closer to the way it was intended.

> Uhh... I think that was me, though I don't know what you meant about WoD.

That's because it was I who said it. ;) WoD stands for World of
Darkness....a different roleplaying system...they measure amounts of
time in nice ways. One measurement of time is a 'scene'. This is as
described above by Tim (thanks Tim!). I believe this is a VERY good way
of determining when to refresh karma pool. However, keep in mind that
awarding too much karma will end up with your players having too much of
a karma pool. And at that point, it won't matter much exactly when you
refresh the pool. ;)

Also, keep in mind that you may want to have your players BUY their
karma pool (after the original freebee point, of course). I think this
is a perfectly feasable alternative to having it predetermined to happen
every 11 karma (11th karma goes to the pool). This way, characters can
decide if they want to become pretty lucky over time, but their skills
will reflect this. :)

Or you could just rule that karma pools only get so big...then you just
record all karma as good karma.

<Snip>

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 44
From: IEngelmann@***.COM
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 20:20:38 -0500
<< >I saw that after a couple of months playing with the same character,the
>>karma pool is BIG,so after look how a player with 15 karma spent all to
>>kill a insect spirit,i decided that the pool dont refresh in the game.So
>>if you have 10 karma,you have 10 karma for all the adventure.So your
>>players will think twice before spend karma in useless actions.
>>What do you think?
>>
>That's pretty much how we play it, except that we normally have it refresh
>each game session... Unless, of course, we have to quit in the middle of
>some action, in which case spent karma carries over to the next game
session...
>
> Bull
>>

We get karma pool points only from time to time when our GM thinks it
appropriate and not after every 10 earned karma points or the like and it
refreshes after every game session. We have no real team pool, 'cause there
is no real team due to periodically changing of players and characters. AFAIK
my character has the greatest karma pool with 8 points and he has already
earned about 700 karma.

Ilja
Message no. 45
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: karma pool
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 02:34:13 +0100
On Wed, 18 Dec 1996 14:08:18 +1100, The Jestyr wrote:
<snipping along>
>this way our characters aren't wanted by Lone Star, and we
>deserved the 9 or so Karma we got...

As far as you wrote it seems a lot of karme to me ... we would get (or i as GM
wuold grant) not more than four to six karma ... But that only after a quick
glance on your run naturally ...

Arno
Message no. 46
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pool
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 19:55:41 -0800
On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, Calvin Hsieh wrote:
[snip]

> > In reference to WHEN the Karma pool refreshes, do like someone said in an
> > earlier post (sorry I forget who), and view the game in WoD terms. That
> > is, in terms of "scenes", and have the pool refresh at the beginning
of
> > each new scene. (A scene would be anytime where there is a little
"break"
> > in the game, like where you could put a commercial, or fade out if it was
> > on TV) This a lot closer to the way it was intended.
>
> Uhh... I think that was me, though I don't know what you meant about WoD.
>
> Shaman
>

Well, the traditional WoD style of GMing (Storytelling..) is to present
the game/adventure/story in terms of "scenes". A scene where the runners
meet the fixer/johnson, a scene (or series of scenes) as they gather
information, a scene (or series of scenes) when they raid the corporate
branch office, etc.. You simply have the pool refresh at the beginning of
each scene. The easiest trick is to view (like I said) the whole thing as
if it were on TV, on the stage (play), in a book, or on the big screen.
Anywhere were there would be a little "fade-out", commercial break,
chapter/section break, end of an Act, or any place where the immediate
focus of the game changes would mark the changing of "scenes".

If that still doesn't help, well I'd just suggest picking up any White
Wolf rule book and perusing the sections on "Storytelling"...they have
good info, tips and techniques on GMing in general, with lots to say
about mood and theme.

~Tim

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Karma pool, you may also be interested in:

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