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From:	Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject:	Karma Pool query
Date:	Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:05:18 +0000

Message no. 1 Summary point 2.)
Ryan Mercury must still be considered a very rare person. Even if
somebody has his inate talent he will find it very difficult to find
a teacher as willing as Dunk. Most of them would teach him only so
far so that he is a useful but not a dangerous tool.
Admittedly though individuals of such talent would be searched out,
hopefully by the better teachers but there is no guarantee of that.

Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:05:18 +0000
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From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Karma Pool query
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Just a quick opinion poll regarding Karma Pool.

BTB it says that the Karma Pool refreshes when the characters have a
chance to catch their breath.
Once this happens, however the GM defines catching their breath, the
Pool should return to it's full value.

If somebody has used KP for re-rolling a spell success test they get
those poin

From:	Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:43:56 +1100

Message no. 2 I'm sure that everybody has had the problem of the mage how cast
armour, invisiblility or the like and used extra dice and re-rolls to
get an obscene number of successes.

How many of you use (or agree with) the idea that when the pool
refreshes only those dice come back for which the action is no longer
on-going ?
I.e. The locked spell has been released, not just switched off.
or the training time for a particular increase is over and the
increase has finally occured.
Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:43:56 +1100
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From: Adam Treloar <guardian@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool query
In-Reply-To: <199801011258.MAA04857@******.com>
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On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Andy Gardner wrote:

[snip]

> I know that BTB the pool refreshes and in theory if they cast the
> spell while at home in between runs they would start the next run
> with a full pool.
>
> I'm sure that everybody has had the problem of the mage how cast
> armour, invisiblility or the like and used extra dice and re-rolls to
> get an obscene number of successes.
>
> How many of you use (or agree with) the idea that when the pool
> refreshes only those dice come back for which the action is no longer
> on-going ?
> I.e. The locked spell has been released, not just switched off.
> or the training time for a particular increase is over and the
> increase has finally occured.

Hmmm... Never thought of that... It could change things a bit, and I
think it has it's points. BUT, I think this method is not necessarily
better. Taking your example of the mage, what happens if he uses karma
pool to reroll, say, ally summoning? The ally will (usually) be around
for a long time, effectively depri

From:	Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:29:42 PST

Message no. 3 **Bad!!!**
**!Bad!!**
**!!Bad!**
* **!You!!**
* * **shudda**
* * * * * * * **known!**
* * **better**
* X // * **!than!**
* // * **that**
* // * ******
* ** *
* * * * * ** * * ****
* * * * * **..**
* * * **/\**
* * ****
* * * *
(Carp: circa 1864) * *

You deserved every pixel of that.:=<>
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:29:42 PST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool query
Content-Type: text/plain

>Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:43:56 +1100

EH? What timezone is that- Australia? This dateline crap plays hell
with my mailers attempt to postmail in propper orders!

>> I know that BTB the pool refreshes and in theory if they cast the
>> spell while at home in between runs they would start the next run
>> with a full pool.

We have a special rule forKarma pool used outside action. 1 point gives
you a re roll. Only 1 re roll allowed. Extra dice canbe purchased, at
cummulative cost- 1 for 1 die, 2 for the next, 3 for the next. That
way, Karma pool is useful for all "legwork" tests and such, but not
over-whelming.

>>
>> I'm sure that

From:	Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:40:41 +0000

Message no. 4 Lates,

Dust
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:40:41 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Organization: Virtual Poetry
Subject: Re: Melee Combat Revisited
In-Reply-To: <34AB098F.571F@*****.net>

On 31 Dec 97 at 21:12, Wyrmy wrote:

> > IMHO, elementals and spirits are already scary enough, thank you very
> > much. =)
>
> they move so fast that I can't banish them before they kill one of my
> teammates.And I'm a Druid !

Barbie, you're right. He's got a RSN-generator....

Wyrmy...oh, boy......

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:40:41 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From:	"Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:31:36 +0000

Message no. 5 Also, no resisting attribute means no real use for sheilding...

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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:53:09 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: TODD ROBBINS <digger-@****.COM>
Organization: @**** Network Member
Subject: Re: Auras, Masking and "Real" Magic
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Tony Rabiola wrote:

> Maybe a combination of self-perception and actual representation. Remember the
example of the
> aged, physically weak master and young student, and when they went astral what a
powerful astral
> presence he had.

True. A combination of the two does make the most sense. I would
simply prefer not to give my players the ability to alter their nature
in astral space, anymore than I would want my NPC's to be able to do
so.

> I do agree with you that the aura should remain true, unless masked; it cannot be
transformed or
> totally hidden.

Agreed. I think this makes the most sense from both the theoretical
and game balance standpoints.

Digger
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:31:36 +0000
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From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool query
In-Reply-To: <199801012038.VAA17924@*********.netsurf.de>
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On 1 Jan 98, Zixx disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>
> > How many of you use (or agree with) the idea that when the pool
> > refreshes only those dice come back for which the action

From:	Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:29:36 +0000

Message no. 6 This is based on my view that a human form shapeshifter has an astral
body that looks like the animal in a humanoid position equal in size
to the body. I think that this has to be the case since the astral
body is a living thing and therefore cannot overlap with other astral
entities, e.g. astral bodies, wards etc....
If the astral body is not constrained to the physical body then a
you have the situation that a 'shifter (bear maybe) could do an
astral punch through a wall since his astral body extends beyond his
fist.

On a seperate note for all those who are objecting to the Masking
adept remember that ALL spellcasters are doing this to a limited
extent already. Whenever they cast a spell at another target they
synchronise their aura with the target to create the bridge for the
spell. All that the masking adept would be doing is to prolong that
change. That would not be easy, I think the adept should suffer
about +3 or +4 penalty while maintaining a carbon copy mask of
somebody else.
Why that big a penalty ? Because whenever a mage casts a spell he
effectively has a fit. Directed and controlled maybe but still a
mental fit. While disguising himself the masking adept is therefore
in a state very similar to a prolonged epileptic fit.
It would also not be easy because the aura is an everchanging thing
and anybody familiar with the copied target might well notice that
something is amiss with the normal pattern. The adept would have
to study the target for a long while under the conditions under which
he is going to try and impersonate the target.
Afterall, my state of mind and way of thinking at home is different
from my state of mind at work.

> > When more progress is made, I'll try and share the new information as I
> > can.
>
> I'm sure we'll all be waiting as patiently as we may <smile>

And we'll all just ask occasionally how things are going :)

Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:29:36 +0000
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From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool query
In-Reply-To: <199801012227.XAA30617@*****.onet.pl>
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On Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:31:36 +0000 "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" wrote

> > > How many of you use (or agree with) the idea that when the pool
> > > refreshes only those dice come back for which the action is no longer
> > > on-going ?
> >
> > Me. Definately (not only because I love making the PCs life
> > miserable). Theoratically, the could do infinite rerolls when doing
> > something that takes longer than a few seconds (e.g. repairing a
> > car). They could start, use the full karma pool, get a pizza (->
> > pool refreshes), use the karmapool again.... Stuff like that. Same
> > for training time for skills and attributes.
>
> Well, I don't. First, I only give 'em KP dice when they get

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:50:23 +0100

Message no. 7 I think that the reaction you use to counter an attack does require the use
some thought. When you're an expert, this reaction becomes more and more
easy because it has almost become a reflex. Anyway, you still have to
transmit the informations to the brains, which involves reflexes... :)

This make me think about one thing... What about adding your skill (or half
your skill to your initiative). It seems logical that an expert in firearms
fires before a neonate with boosted reflexes.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:50:23 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Another barriers question (not related to the psychokinetic one
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Here's another thing about barriers that SRII doesn't really cover, but
which has come up in the local game recently. I made a ruling about it,
but would like to hear other peoples' opinions about it.

One of the shamans in my campaign has a spell-locked physical barrier
spell, and switches it on to gain some protection from people firing at
her. The barrier is in the shape of a sphere (I let the player choose
between a spherical or rectangular barrier when he bought the lock) with a
radius of 6 meters.

My rulings are as follows:

* The barrier extends into a full, 12-meter diameter sphere even when this
falls out of LOS of the character.
* There are holes in the barrier where it intersects with
objects/people/etc. Once such obstructions move out of the way, the
barrier instantly fills the hole.
* The item onto which the spell is locked, is always at the center of the
sphere.

From that, it means that switching on the lock inside a building, for
example, often effectively "locks" the barrier in place, and the spell
lock with it. (An exception would be if the room is larger than 12 x 12 x
6 me

From:	William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:33:44 +0100

Message no. 8 This is correct, per Shadowbeat page 99.

> Now, the question is: what is the price of a single OMC chip?

I'd go with the prices from Shadowbeat, and attribute cost differences
between SRII's magical library prices to a) rights that have to be paid
for the library; and b) poor coordination between books :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:26:38 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Bull - in - the - box
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Steven A. Tinner said on 2:59/ 2 Jan 98...

> My question now is this ... how many MP's is a metahuman brain gonna need
> for storage space?

Couldn't you come up with a slightly easier question? :)

> I'm at a complete loss for just how much room Bull's gonna need to store
> himself in an ACTIVE state.

Well... Let's approach this by taking Shadowbeat to hand. Full-X wet
simsense recordings take 3 Mp per second, so maybe you could figure out
how long Bull's been alive (call it 30 years, or 9.5 x 10^8 seconds, I
don't know...) and you have the amount of Mp needed to record his whole
life (2.8 x 10^9 megapulses -- yes, 2,800,000,000 Mp).

Of course, this would only apply if Bull'd had a simrig implanted a few
days after he was born, and had recorded his entire life since then.
Still, it gives a reasonable starting point, IMHO, as you can now take a
certain percentage off that storage space for the things he's forgotten.
However, for that you'd need to find out how much an average person
forgets about their own experiences...

> Also, in your collective opinions, could you "zip" a brain?

IMHO you could zip his memories (thereby forcing him to do without those
unless he spends a little time to unzip the ones he needs), but not the
part of the brain that does the actual thinking -- try zipping an exe file
and running it while it's still in the zip file, for example. For ease,
I'd give it 50% compression.

> Would it be easier/safer for Bull to simply place his meat brain on life
> support and the do a direct transfer?

A transfer from his brain to where?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:44:01 +0000

Message no. 9 >Don't suppose you could give some hints ? (Please ? Pwetty pwease ?)

No hints please. Beyond the Pale will be out in about a month, then you'll
know.

While I'm posting, I also wanted to let people know about spoilers that are
on the back cover of Beyond the Pale. I tried to make Roc change the text
before the book went to press, but they refused. Arg! Anyhow, the back
cover text reveals something about what happens in the story that I wanted
to be a surprise when it happened. If you want the most enjoyable reading
experience from the book, I suggest not reading the back. It won't ruin the
book or reveal all the secrets if you do, of course, but it does give
something away.

Anyhow, enough venting.

I hope you all enjoy the book.

Best,

--Jak

Jak Koke La Jolla, CA
----------------------------------------------------------
Check out my "fully armed and operational" web pages at:
http://ursula.uoregon.edu/~jkoke
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:32:39 -0700
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bull - in - the - box
In-Reply-To: <199801021653.JAA07250@******.carl.org> from "John E
Pederson" at
Jan 2, 98 11:42:34 am
Content-Type: text

John E Pederson wrote:
/
/ On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 02:59:36 -0500 "Steven A. Tinner"
/ <bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
/
/ <<I'll spare the details, but it basically comes down to this. Bull wants
/ to upload his brain to online storage - essentially place his mind inside
/ a computer.>>
/
/ I think David Buehrer mentioned that most 'storage' within the brain is
/ done symbolically; seems to me that the Matrix is ideally suited for such
/ a purpose (hey Bull: you just became an AI:)

The matrix is presented as icons and symbols to the decker by his
deck. All that information is still 1s and 0s. The matrix does not
store information symbolicly (AFAIK).

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes.
Art is knowing which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:41:24 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion

From:	Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:08:04 -0500

Message no. 10 What men creates can be broken by men ... Nothing is really safe.

Stefan
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:17:11 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: Tin Roses
Subject: Re: Haley's Comet
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> Hmmmm, interesting. And some of it very similar to projects planned for
> Shadowrun in 1999. Haley's Comet is definitely making its first appearance in
> the Sixth World. But is it a harbinger of good news or of doom? Or perhaps of
> both?

> We shall see...

Hey, Steve, now's the chance! Big comet, a couple other astronomical
phenomena -- all the celestial signs for having the Ordo enact the "Slay
Immortal Elves" ritual and get rid of em all! :)

-Mb
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:04:13 -0800
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
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From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Haley's Comet
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Steve Kenson wrote:

> [talk about the comet snipped]
>
> Hmmmm, interesting. And some of it very similar to projects planned for
> Shadowrun in 1999. Haley's Comet is definitely making its first appearance in
> the Sixth World. But is it a harbinger of good news or of doom? Or perhaps of
> both?
>
> We shall see...
>
> Steve K.

I hate it when he does that!

--

Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
Ile drewna moglby nalupac swistak, jezeli swistak moglby lupac drewno?
FAQ Flunky of the SRcard and ShadowRN Mailing Lists
http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/shadowrn/srnfaq1.html <= Get it. Memorize!
Required Reading => http://coastnet.com/~dvixen/srtcg/tcgfaq1.html
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:49:28 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crash of 29
In-Reply-To: <199801022144.WAA21448@******.passagen.se>; from Stefan on Fri,
Jan 02, 1998 at 10:44:39PM +0000
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On Fri, Jan 02, 1998 at 10:44:39PM +0000, Stefan wrote:
> > And verily, did David Buehrer hastily scribble thusly...
> > |If you use a hardwired encryption device it doesn't matter. The only
> > |way to decrypt the data files is to get that piece of hardware, or to
> > |grunt the decryption.
>
> Bruteforce hacking works now and it will work in the future too ..
> and hardware encryption ain't that much harder to crack compared to
> some really long software key .. and as noted there is always the
> possiblity that you creat an emulator to emulate the hardware.
>
> What men creates can be broken by men ... Nothing is really safe.
>
Very true. But bruteforce may take years, or 100s of years etc.
Therefore its not and will remain, an inelegant solution, used when
other possibilities are exhausted. An emulator would possibly work.
The trick would be keeping the encryption scheme secret.
(Much easier to work on the "wetware" end, then on the computer
end, saves time)

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
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Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all of its students.
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Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 17:32:01 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Maskig Adept
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> From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
> Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 1:44 PM

> On 1 Jan 98 at 9:22, Matb wrote:

> > > > ...Until you get people (Keith?) who'll argue that if an adept can
do
> > > > it, and a mage can do everything an adept can and more, then a full
> > > > blown mage should be able to out of. In simpler terms: Cat. Bag.
Out.

> > > Hmm...physads can do stuff mages can't.

> > Phys-mages.

> ....are optional. Besi

From:	losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:36:42 -0500

Message no. 11 > > > And verily, did David Buehrer hastily scribble thusly...
> > > |If you use a hardwired encryption device it doesn't matter. The only
> > > |way to decrypt the data files is to get that piece of hardware, or to
> > > |grunt the decryption.
> >
> > Bruteforce hacking works now and it will work in the future too ..
> > and hardware encryption ain't that much harder to crack compared to
> > some really long software key .. and as noted there is always the
> > possiblity that you creat an emulator to emulate the hardware.
> >

From:	Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 01:38:09 +0100

Message no. 12 At 30-Dez-97 wrote Andy Gardner:

>And in theory a Grade 8 initiate shapechanger (scary thought)
>could hide their aura since it's effectively astrally active points
>(like foci) with a force equal to their essence.

hehehe :) Only grade 3 atm :)

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
Did you know what a rhinoceros is?
All that is left from the unicorn.

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:21:50 -0500
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Walker Drones

You guys might be interested in the stuff that got bounced around about a
year ago on 'Meat Drones' in the list archives...

--
John Pederson Canthros, the shapeshifter-mage
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
<<-------------------------------------------------------------->>
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pe

From:	"Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 04:30:18 +0000

Message no. 13 In a message dated 98-01-02 14:55:30 EST, losthalo@********.COM writes:

> >Missing to see how you, or others like you, would respond...
> >
> The next time you're running your own little psych experiment, count me
> out. We're not guinea pigs, eh? It's rude.
>
Sorry to say, we are all experiments on some level. GM's practice on their
players and vice-versa (Mike says "victimized" is a better term). And I have
witnessed you guys do similar things to us before, and yes, I mean -you- guys.
It wasn't a "psych experiment", it was a curiosity of how other players/gms
would treat the situation.

-K
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:02:07 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Hey LOOK!!! A NEW GUY!!!!
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Hey Look, a Newbie Guy.... ;)

In a message dated 98-01-02 20:27:09 EST, shaman@*******.COM writes:
> Rendar, the educated Ork Street Samurai.
>
> "The Shadows are your friend. Intelligence, your ally. Negotiation, your
> companion. Violence, your lover...but frag, chaos is your wife!"
> -Summary of the run's results to a Johnson.
>
I had to do this, as he didn't say any of the funny "bull-bot" words....Nice
to see you've joined us Rendar....(waves, cheers, shouts, cat-calls)...

-K
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:03:35 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>

From:	westln@***.EDU
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:22:30 -0500

Message no. 14 In a message dated 98-01-02 12:47:46 EST, t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE
writes:

> > Also, you're talking about masking, something that's well within the
> > purview of a full mage.
>
> Not that kind of masking. The masking adept (to make him worth something)
> can also get kind of invisible in astral space (illusion)....
>
Sorry, the missing "n" was just getting to me after a bit ... and I have to
agree with Tobias on this. Masking is, like all the other magical material,
due for a review. A "Masking Adept" opens up some interesting aspects. The
majority of the ideas that I have read in this thread seem to pivot around the
"No Illusions In Astral Space" type of argument. Here's a thought guys...

Masking might not be an Illusion. It might be a Mental Manipulation. Ever
considered redesigning "Disregard" for example from the Mental Manipulation
POV? It could easily strike-out targets in the Astral and make them "ignore
me" (me being the MaskAdept of course ;).

Here is another thought...how about Transformation Manipulations that are
transforming the "leading edge of the aura" or "superficial aura" into
something that is simply harder to see in the astral?

Yes, I know many will say I'm "designing my way around something", but it
changes the pervue in the SR system. Manipulations are NOT Illusions,
therefore they are subject to slightly different laws...

-K
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 00:21:36 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Haley's Comet
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-01-02 16:57:31 EST, TalonMail@***.COM writes:

> Hmmmm, interesting. And some of it very similar to projects planned for
> Shadowrun in 1999. Haley's Comet is definitely making its first appearance
> in
> the Sixth World. But is it a harbinger of good news or of doom? Or perhaps
> of
> both?
> We shall see...
> Steve K.

Interesting indeed Steve. That makes two writer-types for FASA that have said
basically the same thing...yep, torture will definitely be at hand...

-K
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 00:23:10 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Haley's Comet
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-01-02 16:50:37 EST, mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM writes:

> Hey, Steve, now's the chance! Big comet, a couple other astronomical
> phenomena -- all the celestial signs for having the Ordo enact the "Slay
> Immortal Elves" ritual and get rid of em all! :)
> -Mb

Sorry folks, I have to say this. Matt, you are so close the truth of things
that you don't even WANT to know...as a comparison...anyone remember the "Time
of Troubles" from AD&D a few years back? Came up with a HUGE excuse to make
sweeping changes...well, let's just say that SR has a "valid" excuse this
time.

-K
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 00:28:06 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Maskig Adept
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-01-02 17:53:32 EST, vanyel@*******.NET writes:

> That is incorrect. Physical Magicians have full access to astral
> perception and projection per the canon rules. Thus, they aren't expanded
> physical adepts, per se. They are a jack of all magical trades.

WHOA!!! Applying the brakes here...page 119 of the Awakenings, right hand
column, thrid paragraph from the bottom..."Because they focus so much of their
talent on the physical aspect of magic, physical magicians begins without
access to astral space. They may purchase and use the adept power of astral
perception normally, but can never use astral projection."

Damn, that felt good for some reason...

> IMO, illusions don't work in astral space, but you know my opinion on this
> already.

And hopefully by now, you've considered that "Masking" is a Metamagical
Ability and subject to other development that Illusion Spells may or may not
be...(Beware the Comet!!!)

> > Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther
> physad.
> Justin :)

-and K
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 00:20:22 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Living Walker Drones
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-01-02 16:22:22 EST, A.Gardner@******.COM writes:

<snipped ideas on Skillwires, Encephalon, Commsuite, etc...>

> I though of this one a while back and almost did it to one of my
> players. In the end I didn't because it took away control of his
> character from him without any chance of defence. The idea was very
> tempting though and the circumstances entirely self inflicted.
> Fox on the Net

Have you ever done this to a particular NPC that a character (or group of
characters) has several attachments to, like a fave fixer or fan type? BTW, I
still think this stuff sounds familiar...

-K
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 00:31:09 EST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Halley's Comet
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-01-02 19:32:58 EST, barbie@**********.COM writes:

> Yes I can say that, speaking as a phoenix shaman :) Maybe a good day to
> summon an ally spirit.
>
A good day?!?!? Barbie, I don't know about you, but Hale-Bopp was the lord
and master of the skies here last year for over a month (and it was
AWESOME!!!). My mother used to sit in her jacuzi at the edge of Scottsdale
and watch it over the desert nights or from the cabin in Prescott.

Half the town turned off it's lights one night here just to get a really good
view...

And Hal(l)eys' has a greater reputation...only could only imagine...

-K
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 00:34:01 -0600
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Haley's Comet
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On 01/02/98 15:54:49 you wrote:
>
>[talk about the comet snipped]
>
>Hmmmm, interesting. And some of it very similar to projects planned for
>Shadowrun

From:	Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool Query
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:19:54 +0000

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Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:46:47 +0100
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Organization: Plastic Warriors
Subject: Re: Halley's Comet
In-Reply-To: <34AD3B21.7B91@*****.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Wyrmy said on 13:08/ 2 Jan 98...

> BTW visit my new webpage. The url is in my sig.

You have to turn on the .sig for us to be able to read it :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <

From:	Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 05:09:37 PST

Message no. 16 I agree that it's true that all FASA sources say a possessed
person is unrecoverable EXCEPT for 2XS. In there Montgomery's sister
is in a hive and is connected up, effectively cocooned. IIRC there
are even things going through the connection to the 'aura'.

OK, FASA say that the novels aren't canon but the entire process of
insect possession is a little nebulous.
Do people get cocooned first, the possessed or the way round ?

I'm currently involved in a run in Bug City.
Very early on we came across somebody who was cornered and the Insect
Shaman had just, in the previous action, invested the person.
Since the investation tak

From:	Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:06:22 +0100

Message no. 17 > >One-Shot ......... This would be one of the more fascinating options to
> apply
> >to a spell ... a spell that is useful only once and then mage would have
> to go
> >about relearning the spell all over again, which would also include
> >redesigning it again also. For this spell, the karma cost for the spell
is
> >reduced to 25% of the normal cost for the same spell normally.
>
> This reminds me of the mention of one-shot enchanments in the Grimoire, and
> I like it. "We need this spell to do X. We only have three days to get
> this done, or the evil vampire awakens from his sleep, calls his minions to
> him, and sets about devouring Seattle!"

Perhaps another idea with regards to one-shot is that the one-shot is part of
the spell design in the first place, and this would of course drop the drain
of the spell .. but it does not mean that once the spell is cast it is
forgotten forever ... what it could mean is that the mage needs to go about
redesigning and relearning the spell, but does not need to respend the karma
to relearn the spell ... if a spell were done this way, I could see a -2
(maybe even -3) to Drain Category for the spell ...

> >Penetration (+2 Drain Category) ... This option reduces the effectiveness
> of
> >Spell Defense and Initiate Shielding, and cuts their effectiveness by 50%.
>
> Ehhhh.. Again, I don't like this. This is like having a higher force,
> "only different". It's basically free successes in overcoming a resisting
> defender.

No, this does not add additional successes to the success test ... this option
is basically APDS for spells ...

> >Spell Intelligence ... here is where the fun begins ...
>
> I don't think blurring the lines so much between Sorcery and Conjuring is a
> good idea, unless you want to approach Mage: The Ascension in your games...
> Sorcery is Enchanting is Conjuring, if they're pushed too far, and then
> why have *types* of magic? Look at how blurred magicians and physads are
> getting, when powers one has are always given an equivalent in the other,
> things begin to lose their unique character.

Something I was thinking of, and is reinforced by what I have read from this
post is that Conjuring is one of the least explored but potentially more
beneficial to Sorcery in a huge way. Whenever a mage summons a spirit or
casts a spell, astral energies are shaped to fulfill

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:21:36 +0000

Message no. 18 I am going to ponder this some more ...

Mike

"When all else fails, don't Hellblast the postman ..."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 06:10:40 PST
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Mindlink / senslink spell design
Content-Type: text/plain

I have some questions about the mindlink and senselink spells.

The only time these were used in our game, I played an Air adept who had
the mindlink spell, designed to link the target to his own mind- he
would cast it on others to link mentally. Is this the propper use of
the spell?

This lead to the interesting pardox that once, he was captured after
doing so. There was NOTHING the captors could do to him that would
affect the spell- he wasn't even sustaining it, one of his elemntals
was, assigned to do so for days as its final task. (well, ok, when
knocked out, the elemntal might go away, but he wasn't knocked out.
IMO, such use is like a remote service). They could not see the spell,
he could go through a barrier and it would still work, etc.He could also
have used a lock on the target of the

From:	Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:36:19 -0500

Message no. 19 Now, here's were it gets ill. Having been released, he figures on
designing a senselink (insert captors name here) spell, getting in a
sensory deprivation tank, and casting it on himself. Nice little way to
spy on somebody without ever casting a spell on them or doing any astral
scouting, eh?

Just what am I doing wrong- the fact that this MIGHT be possible gave me
and my fellow players the heebee jebee's. Obviously, I might not know
enough about my captor to do this, but they might know enough about me
to do so. Mindlink lets you try to NOT send thoughs (good for spying,
sense you don't want the person your linking to / designing the spell
"for" to hear your thoughts). Senselink has NO such thing, which is
also good for spying- no way to block it. None. Can't sheild or use
any other magical defense- you are not the spells target, just part of
its design. Talk about a spell with your name on it !

Now, just what is REALLY required to design and use such spells?
The suddenly seem VERY powerful if usable for spying this way.

I'd expect something like, you need the "link-ee's" co-operation to
design the spell.
That is still mighty powerful- that somebody you design the spell to
link to could then be anywhere in the world, even maybe in orbit or the
meta planes, as you are casting the spell on

From:	James Paul Morgan <jpmorgan@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:59:52 -0700

Message no. 20 > And IIRC, the rules state that only combat pool equal to the SKILL in
> armed/unarmed combat can be used in this way.

True. Plus, you can add no Combat Pool to the Body test to resist damage,
if you got hit.

> So, if someone totally unskilled in combat was attacked, they could used
> their combat pool only to dodge, NOT counter attack.
>
> [Or am I getting mixed up with 1st Ed again.... GURTH!]

Not sure... I'll pull out one of my first ed rulebooks and look it up
there, hang on...

Page 70 in a second printing hardback: "The defender uses his Defense
Pool, which is based on the character's Armed Combat Rating if a melee
weapon is ready or on his Unarmed Combat Rating if not." Note that
characters with no skill had a Defense Pool equal to their Strength minus
4 (with a minimum of 1).

This, though, appears to apply only to situations where more than two
people are involved in the melee (SR1 rules are very vague on the subject
of melee combat). Also it seems that if you're trying to avoid combat
altogether, you only got a Body test to reduce the damage, not another
test to see if you can dodge the attack as well.

I think you're mixing 1st and 2nd edition again, yes...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Salsa shark
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:35:58 +0000
Reply-To: dave@********.ml.org
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: "David E. Smith" <dave@********.ML.ORG>
Organization: Bureau 42 Enterprises
Subject: Re: Crash of 29
In-Reply-To: <199801022310.AAA03101@******.passagen.se>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Yea verily was it written upon the shadowrn@********.itribe.net...

> > The trick would be keeping the encryption scheme secret.
> > (Much easier to work on the "wetware" end, then on the computer
> > end, saves time)
Sorry, but that first sentence really irks me. "Security through
obscurity" doesn't work well, and is just about universally despised by RL
cryptographers/cryptanalysts. More or less, keeping the encryption
algorithm secret is saying "just trust us." And who's going to trust any
megacorp, and/or the government?

For some really nifty insights, skim through the documentation that comes
with PGP. The abridged version: PGP uses the RSA pubkey algorithm, which
has been subject to professional and public scrutiny for almost 20 years
now, and there's still no more elegant way to break it than brute-force.
(Fellow deckers-in-training: I know exactly what's wrong with that
sentence, so don't remind me. :)

> It is true that bruteforce takes alot of time ... ALOT ... and I
> recon it will do so in the future to even thou computers gets faster
> and should be able to crack more the codes and encryption will be
> harder and require more time ... But it will work ... a few Fairlight
> Exacliburs and your in business :)
It balances out, though. Today, a 2048-bit key or so is thought to be
fairly secure. But as computers get faster, the numbers scale upwards for
both sides. Just start tacking zeroes on until everyone's happy. :)

And generally, barring certain mathematical breakthroughs that are getting
more and more off topic for this list (for RSA, what's needed is a better
way to factor insanely large numbers), just scaling up the key sizes
should be sufficient.

> The best possible way of hacking ... Social Engineering ... People
> talk it is as easy as that and some of them are really really stupid
> to and that helps ... :)
Yep. Those pesky humans are still the weak link in the system.

dave
>

From:	Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:28:21 +0100

Message no. 21 I realize you have some interesting ideas that you want to use this for.
That's not a problem for me, I'm just asking you to think about what it
might do for other spells. Yes I'm talking game-balance, but game-balance
is the reason a lot of things prolly don't make it into published SR books.
Being able to just program a spell with some details about the target and
tell it to "sic 'im, boy" seems too easy, and hard to defend against. It
isn't ritual sorcery, which is both time-consuming and vulnerable to
interruption. That's why ritual sendings can be so scary, in game terms,
is that they are limited in usefulness.

>> But... why does he forget it each time? This smacks of AD&D spell
>> memorization, which is usually a complaint of people that dislike

From:	Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:30:41 +0100

Message no. 22 I'm sure they would. Players would also like all kinds of things, but that
doesn't mean they should be written into the rules. Hellblast is nasty, it
shouldn't get easy to cast.

Taking a big penalty to get a big break somewhere else is, unfortunately,
also the things of which munchkins dream (no I'm not calling you one, and
no we can't write munching out've the game, but this could play into their
wicked little hands). Slay Human, for instance, seems just a little munchy
to me nowadays... too many opponents are humans for this to be the
downside that it is for, say, Slay Dwarf or Slay Elf (there are far too
many humans for it to be a big limitation).

>Perhaps something that would be eventually be developed is spells that are
>built with a Very Restricted Target involved and combined with Single Shot, a
>spell could be designed had that affec

From:	Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Sun, 4 Jan 1998 20:05:05 -0500

Message no. 23 Say, have yuo ever read the initial post?
Because willpower helps you to fight fatigue, but what helps you to defed
against, say, an acid bomb (except for armor) ro a powerbolt?
Besides, the TN for mana-spell's is equal to the willpower of the victim...

> >> Personally, I think magic should have a decent chance to fail if you
> use the wrong spell on the wrong target. DON'T target trolls with
> powerbolt or fireball, use manabolt or sleep.
> >
> >Hmmm...with body+7 boxes, the troll can take quite a lof of powerbolts.
> Besides, his armor saves him from those (as they use elemental
> effects/physical attacks)
> >
>
> Yes, but most trolls CAN'T take several Manabolts. OTOH, what about the
> dwarf with the pain editor and active adrenal pump- his 10 willpower
> should let him take manabolts all day, despite his 4 body. Not by your
> rules. By yours he uses... Armor?!?

Errrmmm....se above. How many succsesses do you get when targeting a
willpower 10 dwarf with a manabolt. That's a nice TN of 10. Compared to TN
2 for the troll. See the diference?

> By magics description, armor has NO effect on combat magic- the damage
> is pumped through the aura! Thats both a useful game effect, and an
> important shadowrun "fact" of magic.

For mana-spells, yes. But a powerbolt of fireball is resisted with armor. I
don't know why they wrote in the Grimoire that armor doesn't help, but a
fireball hardly comes from the inside of a target.

> >> Also, no resisting attribute means no real use for sheilding...
> >
> >Hmmm...resist with you shielding dice....
>
> Yes, but the effect of sheilding is to "add to the resisting attribute"-
> you can of course change that to "add to target number", but again, your
> changing magic, not the damage system, at that point.

So what? I'm reworking a rather essential part of the system. Everxthing
that effects this is going to be changed, of course.

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:50:54 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Organization: Virtual Poetry
Subject: Re: Maskig Adept
In-Reply-To: <77e21516.34adcc68@***.com>

On 3 Jan 98 at 0:28, Ereskanti wrote:

> In a message dated 98-01-02 17:53:32 EST, vanyel@*******.NET writes:
>
> > That is incorrect. Physical Magicians have full access to astral
> > perception and projection per the canon rules. Thus, they aren't expanded
> > physical adepts, per se. They are a jack of all magical trades.
>
> WHOA!!! Applying the brakes here...page 119 of the Awakenings, right hand
> column, thrid paragraph from the bottom..."Because they focus so much of their
> talent on the physical aspect of magic, physical magicians begins without
> access to astral space. They may purchase and use the adept power of astral
> perception normally, but can never use astral projection."

HA! I feel really good right now. I haven't read Awakenings for half a year
but still, I could quote most of the passage from memory (I replaced
'begins without' with 'have no'...:)))

> Damn, that felt good for some reason...

Thanks for proofing my point! :)

> > IMO, illusions don't work in astral space, but you know my opinion on this
> > already.
>
> And hopefully by now, you've considered that "Masking" is a Metamagical
> Ability and subject to other development that Illusion Spells may or may not
> be...(Beware the Comet!!!)

Besides, masking is a metamagic, or magic applyed to magic. Now astral
space is 'simple' magic, so a masking adept - useing metamagic- can
theoretically cast any form of normal magic in astral space. Now, real
spell-based metamagic is a bit tough, but as the masking is more a reflex,
than an actual action (like when raising your arm, you don't think about
what happens in the muscles. You just do it (Nike!))
Theoratically, a normal magician could do that masking, but as he's more on
a muscle-cell level, it's a lot too complex for him...sounds good?

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:50:54 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Organization: Virtual Poetry
Subject: Re: Sniper rifles
In-Reply-To: <199801031146.MAA00987@*****.xs4all.nl>

On 3 Jan 98 at 12:46, Gurth wrote:

> Zixx said on 20:50/ 2 Jan 98...
>
> > > I don't see why it should be impossible to make LP ammo into a belt -- all
> > > you need are belt links that fit the cartridge cases. Now I grant you that
> > > it'll be very unlikely you'll find those, since I know of no pistol (RL or
> > > SR) that uses belted ammo, but it's nonetheless possible to make such a
> > > belt.
> >
> > Guess you got that wrong.
>
> In what way am I "wrong" here? You can make any modern ammo into a belt,
> given belt links of the right size.

Easy Gurth. I wasn't talking abou that being impossible, but about hating a
gun-nut to buy, say "assault rifle-ammo", cause IRL you don't go into a
gun-shop and buy "assault rifle-ammo" or "heavy pistol-ammo", you get
"5.56
NATO FMJs" or ".45ACP JHP" or whatever....

> > Just imagine a drek-hot Sammy ask his fixer about "light pistol ammo".
> > ".22 FMJs", would be nice. It's just a matter of realsim and
detail....
>
> Even though the player is asking for "light pistol ammo", the character is
> asking for ".22 FMJ". FASA deliberately didn't include calibers, probably
> so that it wouldn't overwhelm people with little knowledge of firearms.
> That way, putting it all under "light pistols" is much handier (if a bit
> unrealistic) than assigning a caliber to each and every weapon.
>
> There's nothing to stop you from adding calibers to the game if you want
> to...

That's why I did it!

Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

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t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:53:33 +0000
Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Sender: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <trrkt@*****.onet.pl>
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Datajacks and VCR
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hmmm...

Is it possible to drive a VCR-only vehicle (no manual control) using
only a datajack? I have always assumed it's not possible, but since
Adam J thought this could be done... well... I'm not sure anymore.

(The other way it has to be possible, though, since datajack-driven
vehicle can be driven using just the datajack, with VCR cyberware
"off"...)

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Sch

From:	Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Mon, 5 Jan 1998 04:23:29 +0000

Message no. 24 At 23:53 04/01/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Is it possible to drive a VCR-only vehicle (no manual control) using
>only a datajack? I have always assumed it's not possible, but since
>Adam J thought this could be done... well... I'm not sure anymore.

<grin> Bring my name into it, why don't ya!

It may have been in a piece of fiction, but I swear I remember someone
jacking in to drive, without a VCR.

>(The other way it has to be possible, though, since datajack-driven
>vehicle can be driven using just the datajack, with VCR cyberware

From:	westln@***.EDU
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:00:54 -0500

Message no. 25 >Let me start by saying we are all victims of the rules. The rules
>specifically state that the Karma Pool can be used to buy extra dice
>or reroll failures. It is a logical thing for a Mage to assume that
>this rule applies to spell casting, whether or not a given spell is
>going to be locked or quickened. It is also logical to assume that
>the Karma used in this case will refresh. There is nothing in the
>rules to indicate otherwise.

>
>Unfortunately, using the full KP during downtime can give a
>SIGNIFICANT boost to certain locked or quickened spells. As such,
>many people are looking for ways to prevent this. I'll admit that
>it can mess up the game balance to allow it. But I'll also admit
>that most of the solutions I've heard go too far trying to prevent
>it.
>
>IMHO, a character should be able to use KP to lock spells without
>penalty (like permanent reduction of KP) at the same level they
>normally use KP to cast spells. My mage regularly uses 1 KP to
>reroll failures on most of the spells where the number of successes
>determines the effect of the spell. It should be reasonable to do
>the same when locking or quickening spells during downtime.
>
>If you're looking for a way to stop mages from abusing certain spell
>locks, then put a general limit on KP used on a single action. After
>all, it seems reasonable to create a general rule that applies to all
>cases and has a logical explanation. Don't limit Mages just because
>they have the biggest potential for abuse, limit all characters to
>prevent any abuse. And if you don't think other characters can
>abuse downtime KP spending, see the Decker reference below.
>
>westln@***.EDU said:
>>
>> For clarification, I'm the Gm Brian is refereing to.
>> >Brian Moore ssiad:
>> >>Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM> said:
>> >> ...
>> >> If somebody has used KP for re-rolling a spell success test they get
>> >> those points back.
>> >> What happens if they locked the spell ?
>> >...
>> The way I had been viewing it, Brian, was that the karma became part of the
>> spell. While the spell is active the karma is in use. As soon as the spell
>> is no longer active, The spell & the karma dissipate back into astral or
>> meta space. Then over time the karma finds it way back to it's true host
>> (namely the person who invested it in the spell). I sort of view the karma
>> as tuned to the person who it belonged to. The longer the karma is away
>> from the person the longer it will take to recover it, since things may
>> have gotten out of tune either with the karma or the original person may be
>> out of tune with the old karma. Who knows maybe someone else will have
>> become better tuned to the karma and aquire it.
>
>Nowhere in any of the sections on spellcasting or Karma is this view
>mentioned. The section on the Karma Pool states that it is used for
>short-term butt-saving. The KP is a game mechanic to give the game some
>flavor, to allow heroic deeds and miracle saves. Aside from buying
>successes, the KP is never premanently used. It is supposed to refresh
>so the characters can perform more heroic deeds in the next scene.
>
>The section on giving Karma to Free Spirits is the only place that might
>give you the impression that Karma actually exists in some form. In that
>reference, Karma represents the (meta)human spirit, life experience, or
>whatever. It does not leave your body except when you give it to a
>free spirit. I've never seen any sort of reference to Karma being
>sucked out of a mages body when he casts a spell.
>
>What's so special about Magic that doesn't apply to other things? If a
>character uses KP on a street etiquette roll to find a safehouse, is that
>KP tied up till he leaves? How come Karma can get tied up in spells, but
>not other things? What about a Rigger, who pours his heart and soul into
>tuning the engine on his Panzer (using KP on his Vehicle B/R)? What
>about a Rocker who writes a new song to express his hate of Mitsuhama
>because they geeked his parents (using KP on his Music Composition roll)?
>What about the Decker, who spends a dozen KP on all the rolls to make
>a drek-hot deck? As long as the safehouse exists, or the Panzer keeps
>running, or the song is on the charts, or the deck exists, those
>characters have something with invested Karma. Why is it that only the
>Mage should lose his karma?
>
>If you think a spell lock with extra KP dice and rerolls is bad for game
>balance, wait till you see a deck done the same way. A decker working
>on a separate component between each adventure can get one amazing deck.
>Sure it takes longer than a Mage locking a single spell, but it is
>probably far worse for game balance.
>
>> So while the B/R activity is going on the Karma is invested in the person
>> doing the repair. He is constantly mulling over the problem in the back of
>> his mind. I see the karma allocated to the person not the vehicle. This is
>> namely because I see no way a mundane can invest karma like a mage would.
>> The mechanism should be different. Once the B/R is acomplished the tech
>> will still be mulling over it for a while but gradually he'll recover his
>> perspective and get the karma back. This is more a case of burning karma
>> for extra mental energy on a problem.
>
>A mundane can't invest Karma like a mage? Why not? If you view it as
>life energy (perhaps based on the karma rules for free spirits), then
>you're wrong. Mundanes can give Karma to free spirits, just not as well
>as Mages. Mundanes can learn skills and increase their attributes like
>Mages, by spending Karma. Mages learn spells with Karma, but that's
>equivalent to learning skills. Mundanes can buy extra dice, rerolls,
>or extra successes using Karma, like Mages. The only thing that Mages
>can do with Karma that mundanes can't is bond foci and Initiate.
>
>Actually I find your whole argument above somewhat lacking... A mage
>using KP to cast a spell is a mage using EXPERIENCE to perhaps increase
>concentration and better manipulate the flow of mana used to cast the
>spell. He is not adding his Karma directly to Mana to get a better
>effect. Your view that karma is "thrown to the winds" when a spell is
>cast seems to be rather unique. Can you give any reference to any SR
>material that supports this, or even hints at it?
>
>> > If you use
>> >KP on conjuring, does the KP stay 'used' till whatever you conjured
>> >goes away? If you use KP on Enchanting, does it ever come back?
>> This I'm not sure on. Is the karma invested in the skill of conjuring or in
>> some sort of spell involved in conjuring. I'm leaning to saying the Karma
>> dissapates once the conjuring is completed. For the enchanting I'd say it's
>> locked in the iteam until it's destroyed.
>
>Why? What's the difference between enchanting and conjuring? You seem
>to feel that Magic has the ability to suck up Karma with it, due to the
>metaphysics involved. The KP is supposed to represent EXPERIENCE, not
>some special life force that ONLY mages can consciously direct. When
>a character used their KP, they are using experience to do something
>better or faster.
>
>A mage enchanting an item is using the equivalent of a magical B/R
>skill. The enchanting mage does NOT spend any karma creating a focus,
>only the eventual recipient does in the process of bonding it. The KP
>used represents the mages EXPERIENCE, and his ability to enchant things
>more quickly or more powerfully than less experienced mages. So how
>does the karma get sucked into the focus? And why doesn't it get
>sucked into a Panzer engine or cyberdeck as well?
>
>My mage knows Invisibility at a low force level. But he knows that if
>he really concentrates on it (using all his Magic Pool for successes,
>and rerolling failures once using KP), he can cast it very well (6 or
>more successes). And he ALWAYS casts it that way. Why is it that he
>can't do that when he wants to lock it, without (almost) permanently
>losing part of his KP?
>
>--
>Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
>First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
>standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-

From:	Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:56:54 +1000

Message no. 26 westln writes:
[Big debate about Karma Pools snipped. What was your query, BTW, westln?]

Anyway, here's my personal solution to the dilemma about magicians using
Karma to get oodles of successes with spell locks:

I do not allow the use of Karma to improve quality of a test without some
sort of pressure factor. I do allow the use of Karma to reduce the time
spent on a task.

This works well with many skill-tests, where the successes have to be
divided between the quality and the time spent (you just say that any
re-rolled successes have to be allocated to the time spent side). It also
gives rise to the situation where people do their best work under pressure
(apparently, anyway... certainly my old boss used to think so).

And it nicely stops the problem of magicians using Karma to get oodles of
successes, without unfairly discriminating against them. (I'd originally
brought in the rule to stop my players trying to spend Karma to re-roll
their attempts to find items with high Availability, that I didn't
particularly want them to have yet).

I've used this rule almost since the first game session I GM'd of second
edition (it was a carryover from the first edition rules, actually), and
I've never had a complaint about it.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons robert.watkins@******.com

From:	westln@***.EDU
Subject:	Re: Karma Pool query
Date:	Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:33:05 -0500

Message no. 27 >westln writes:
>[Big debate about Karma Pools snipped. What was your query, BTW, westln?]

Sorry , mailer glich or my own not sure which. It wasn't supposed to
be sent.

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