Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pools and Role- (roll-?) playing
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 12:43:25 -0400
On Wed, 15 Jun 1994, Matthew McCormick wrote in response to Rob

> Agreed, "an EXTREMELY harsh world" indeed, thats why players
> should develop their roleplaying skills and tactics so that the characters
> can handle it and, not rely on a bunch of dice rolls in place of the role
> playing.
>
> The Grand Poobah: Prime Minister Of SWO
>


Yes. I have to agree. If you routinely put your characters through
situations where they would die, then they >should< die. I'm sorry, but
no matter how skilled or lucky you are, there comes a time when you get
hosed. And if you merely increase the threat of the NPC's to make them
able to challenge your players, you're following down that long downward
spiral that eventually ends in GM frustration as he has to send a corp
hit squad made up entirely of dracoforms to make a dent on the party.
Shadowrun is one of the best games for the realism of the >danger< of
combat. Most of the time, if someone hits you with an assault rifle, you
die. Ridiculously large Karma pools keep most of the threat out of the
game. In the game I'm a character in, I have over 200 total Karma (a
no-pool game) with about seven to ten free most of the time to save my
ass. I am a Grade 3 initiate Combat magician. Personally, I have this
thing against snipers, because I >know< that they are dangerous, so I
safeguard accordingly. But in a game where I have a ridiculuous amount
of Karma pool dice to spend that will refresh at some later time, several
things happen.

1. I will never be surprised. I can buy all the Reaction dice I
need to defeat any foe, no matter how he or she is wired.

2. I will never be hit. As above, I can buy hundreds of dodge dice.

3. In the remotest chance that I am hit, I will never be damaged, as
I can buy dice for my body succes test. I may need to buy alot, but hey,
I have alot to buy with.

Therefore, I have no fear. No sniper ould ever touch me, regardless of
how careless or stupid I was. There is no threat that can make me
tremble, cause I can buy >hundreds< of dice.

To me, this takes away most of the fun of the game. Not that getting
wasted by a SWAT sniper or greased by a Mafia hitman is fun, but worrying
about it is. That's part of the character. He knows that the Mob is
after him, so he's always lookin' over his shoulder. Paranoia is one of
the best parts about SR.

Marc
Message no. 2
From: Claudia Mohr <claudia@*****.PHYS.ND.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pools and Role (roll?) playing
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 19:22:42 EST
Thursday Marc wrote:
To me, this takes away most of the fun of the game. Not that getting
wasted by a SWAT sniper or greased by a Mafia hitman is fun, but worrying
about it is. That's part of the character. He knows that the Mob is
after him, so he's always lookin' over his shoulder. Paranoia is one of
the best parts about SR.

Yeah chummer - that's the best argument I've heard during that whole karmapool-
discussion during the last days. Although I hate it to loose a character it is
more realistic that you don't survive some things (like running into
concentrated fire of a Vindicator). And if karma pools save you from all this
it must be no fun at all for the GM to create new situations.
Thanks for that comment it was really necessaray.
Claudia
Message no. 3
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pools and Role- (roll-?) playing
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 16:21:55 -0700
On Thu, 16 Jun 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> Therefore, I have no fear. No sniper ould ever touch me, regardless of
> how careless or stupid I was. There is no threat that can make me
> tremble, cause I can buy >hundreds< of dice.

*Sigh*
Repeat:
You can only buy as many dice as you have attribute or skills.
Last time I checked, Combat Pool maxed ~20, so that's the most you can
buy, if you're really disgusting.
Got it?

> Marc
>

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 4
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Karma pools and Role- (roll-?) playing
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 12:48:32 +1000
Marc writes:


> 1. I will never be surprised. I can buy all the Reaction dice I
> need to defeat any foe, no matter how he or she is wired.

Can you buy reaction dice, I only thought you could buy extra dice for
tests, and reaction isnt a test.

> 2. I will never be hit. As above, I can buy hundreds of dodge dice.

they're combat pool dice, not dodge dice. Nowhere does it say you dodge out
of the road (although is is implied by the fact that the attack misses if
you acheive sufficent successes), this was a 1st ed thing. Anyway, as
someone pointed out earlier, you can only buy extra dice up to a maximum
equal to the original dice you used, come to think of it, in a damage
resistance test you can only buy extra dice equal to your body. You cannot
augement your combat pool dic, only re-roll.

> 3. In the remotest chance that I am hit, I will never be damaged, as
> I can buy dice for my body succes test. I may need to buy alot, but hey,
> I have alot to buy with.

As above, but if you need more successes than your body and extra dice equal
to your body can generate, they permanatly burn off karma, even if I had 350
karma pool, I would consider before buring it off permanatly

> Therefore, I have no fear. No sniper ould ever touch me, regardless of
> how careless or stupid I was. There is no threat that can make me
> tremble, cause I can buy >hundreds< of dice.

Hundreds sure, but not hundreds for one roll.

> To me, this takes away most of the fun of the game. Not that getting
> wasted by a SWAT sniper or greased by a Mafia hitman is fun, but worrying
> about it is. That's part of the character. He knows that the Mob is
> after him, so he's always lookin' over his shoulder. Paranoia is one of
> the best parts about SR.
>
Even though it may not seem like it, I agree with your sentiment, too many
karma dice _can_ be a problem. But only if GMed incorrectly, I assume Ivy
has sussed out the pros and cons and worked out a happy medium.

Damion
Message no. 5
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Karma pools and Role (roll?) playing
Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 23:03:35 -0400
On Thu, 16 Jun 1994, Claudia Mohr wrote:
......Although I hate it to loose a character it is
> more realistic

It is fantasy after all...

that you don't survive some things (like running into
> concentrated fire of a Vindicator).

I used one of those before..I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with
it..all those rounds add up to some outragous recoil modifiers...

And if karma pools save you from all this
> it must be no fun at all for the GM to create new situations.

The fun of GMing is supposed to be creating a world for others to play
inand creating a good enough story to keep everyone involved and satisfied...
>
-------------------GRANITE
Message no. 6
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pools and Role (roll?) playing
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 10:50:54 -0400
And thank you for the compliment.

Marc
Message no. 7
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Karma pools and Role- (roll-?) playing
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 10:52:35 -0400
On Thu, 16 Jun 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> *Sigh*
> Repeat:
> You can only buy as many dice as you have attribute or skills.
> Last time I checked, Combat Pool maxed ~20, so that's the most you can
> buy, if you're really disgusting.
> Got it?
>
>
> +-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
> Adam Getchell


Are you sure? I thought it said you could purchase more dice than you
had. Or is it that you can purchase more autosuccesses than you have
dice? I'll have to look again.

Marc
Message no. 8
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Karma pools and Role (roll?) playing
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 1994 02:02:26 -0400
On Fri, 17 Jun 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> And thank you for the compliment.
>
> Marc
>
What are you referring to? There've been a lot of messages with
this Subject header over the past few days.
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Karma pools and Role- (roll-?) playing
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 01:47:37 +0930
>
> On Thu, 16 Jun 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:
>
> > Therefore, I have no fear. No sniper ould ever touch me, regardless of
> > how careless or stupid I was. There is no threat that can make me
> > tremble, cause I can buy >hundreds< of dice.
>
> *Sigh*
> Repeat:
> You can only buy as many dice as you have attribute or skills.
> Last time I checked, Combat Pool maxed ~20, so that's the most you can
> buy, if you're really disgusting.
> Got it?
>
But I can re-roll ALL my failures for 1 KP. If I still don't have enough,
I can do it again for 2KP. And I'm so tough that the only way the GM can
hurt me is to eliminate any chance of success (ie, throw more dice in than
I can get success), then I'm a munchkin, by definition.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers are around at 9 am,
it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 10
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Karma pools and Role- (roll-?) playing
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 12:48:29 -0700
On Sun, 19 Jun 1994, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >
> > On Thu, 16 Jun 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:
> >
> > > Therefore, I have no fear. No sniper ould ever touch me, regardless of
> >
> > *Sigh*
> > Repeat:
> > You can only buy as many dice as you have attribute or skills.
> > Last time I checked, Combat Pool maxed ~20, so that's the most you can
> >
> But I can re-roll ALL my failures for 1 KP. If I still don't have enough,
> I can do it again for 2KP. And I'm so tough that the only way the GM can
> hurt me is to eliminate any chance of success (ie, throw more dice in than
> I can get success), then I'm a munchkin, by definition.
>
Yup, you sure can. And up against a reasonable Target Number, like 18D
with only 1/2 of your Ballistic Armor counting, you can burn those 350
points on rerolls real quick.

Munchkin? Not even. Just an honest GM playing an honest game with
realistic Target Numbers at a reasonable poler level. Munchkin, chummer,
is when there isn't any challenge.

Ok, 22 lines of fire deleted.

Munchkin is really any game that has surviving characters without a full,
game legal, Karma Pool. Because if the characters are surviving, then
the GM isn't using honest TNs and realistic situations. Do all of you
have the Sprawl Scenes Book? Ok, those mini-adventures are there for the
characters with less than 25 Karma in their Pool. So are the
out-of-the-box, straight from FASA adventures, in the most part. And
even they aren't that easy, with a honest GM in fact, most of them will
kill entire parties. With an honest GM.

Slightly bent Crone here,

Ivy

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Karma pools and Role- (roll-?) playing, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!