Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Karma Pool (was Re: Companion and Math)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:51:53 -0700
Brett Barksdale wrote:
|
| Beginning shadowrun GMs, take my advice: DON'T USE KARMA POOLS. Just give
| it all to your players as good karma (i.e. "experience points") and take
| the time to carefully develop your world and adventures so you /don't/
| need karma pools to make everything "all right". If they screw up, let the
| dice fall where they may. A shadowrun game without the very real chance of
| death - even when the character(s) /don't/ screw-up - is a waste, in my
| opinion. No tension = lame cyberpunk genre.

I sorta agree with you. However, I feel that KP is part of
the character of SR. I've played the James Bond RPG and it
had something similar called Hero Points. But that was
part of James Bond, being able to do miraculous things off
hand.

If you're like me and you like KP, but find that it gets
unruley for experienced players, think about this
*option*. Treat KP like a skill in terms of advancement.
Players can increase their KP by spending good karma to
increase it. Use the same rules for increasing skills.
This give's players the option of increasing their KP or
not, and makes it more realistic (and falls in line with
the standard rules for increasing stats).

You might want to take away the option of burning KP... or
not.

Criticisms?

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 2
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool (was Re: Companion and Math)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:54:24 -0500
David Buehrer wrote,
>If you're like me and you like KP, but find that it gets
>unruley for experienced players, think about this
>*option*. Treat KP like a skill in terms of advancement.
>Players can increase their KP by spending good karma to
>increase it. Use the same rules for increasing skills.
>This give's players the option of increasing their KP or
>not, and makes it more realistic (and falls in line with
>the standard rules for increasing stats).
>
>You might want to take away the option of burning KP... or
>not.
>
>Criticisms?
>
I'll try that constuctive thing I've heard about here <grin>. I was
thinking about the same option last night. Being skimpy apparantly on
Karma awards and trading off between a few friends games I never had the
problem of an excessive amount of Karma pool. At this time I'm not sure
what would be a good cost for it. As far as burning karma. If the cost
of buying the karma is low then I would let the standard rules apply. I
run game with stages, so to speak, in them where I award small amounts of
karma so I would consider a higher cost for Karma with 'burned' points
returned after the larger goal is completed or possible returned like
force points are from WEG's Star Wars. Another option would be for Karma
Pools being a special award as the GM sees fit (no suggestions for a
guide rule there, sorry). All of these options (including the earning
ratio from the Companion or varients there of) have merits for avoiding
Karma Pool buildup.
I'm wondering what those of you with long term ongoing campaigns
(with the large Karma build up) have as far as ideas on the subject
matter.

- MC23, sinking his teeth into a new chew toy -
"Happy, happy, joy, joy!"
Message no. 3
From: Brett Barksdale <brett@***.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Karma Pool (was Re: Companion and Math)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:58:37 -0800
>From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@**: .ORG>
>
>Brett Barksdale wrote:
>|
>| Beginning shadowrun GMs, take my advice: DON'T USE KARMA POOLS. Just give
>| it all to your players as good karma (i.e. "experience points") and take
>| the time to carefully develop your world and adventures so you /don't/
>| need karma pools to make everything "all right". If they screw up, let the
>| dice fall where they may. A shadowrun game without the very real chance of
>| death - even when the character(s) /don't/ screw-up - is a waste, in my
>| opinion. No tension = lame cyberpunk genre.
>
>I sorta agree with you. However, I feel that KP is part of
>the character of SR. I've played the James Bond RPG and it
>had something similar called Hero Points. But that was
>hand of James Bond, being able to do miraculous things off
>hand.
>
>If you're like me and you like KP, but find that it gets
>*option*. Treat KP like a skill in terms of advancement.
>Players can increase their KP by spending good karma to
>increase it. Use the same rules for increasing skills.
>This give's players the option of increasing their KP or
>not, and makes it more realistic (and falls in line with
>the standard rules for increasing stats).

>You might want to take away the option of burning KP... or
>not.
>Criticisms?

None, really, at least from a technical sense. This mostly falls under
the category of "feel" and "flavor" - which is pretty subjective.

My (subjective) problem with it is - pretty much no matter /how/
one brings Karma Pool into it, it allows the players to skew the
probabilties at certain key times in an adventure. When players know
that they will be able to get extra dice (or however you implement
KP) when they face the "big baddie" - or whenever it hits the fan -
it leaks a lot of the tension out of the game. While I agree that
the "karma" concept (Bond fate points, etc.) fits into the genre from
a "literary" standpoint, It just doesn't work for me as a game mechanic.

The "real" James Bond doesn't know (or does he? :-) that he's just a fictional
character fated to win and get the babe every time. And so, when he's in
the thick of it, he's riding that adreniline high of not knowing what fate
has in store for him. But the /player/ playing the game (be it Bond with
fate points or Shadowrun with a karma pool) /knows/ about the karma/fate
mechanic and /knows/ that they have a great(er) chance of surviving because
of that one fact alone. I'm not saying anyone's game is like this, but at
the worst level of KP, who wants to play a game where they /know/, for a fact,
that they are going to win/survive all of the time? Unmodified KP rules,
after a certain amount of adventures, can pretty much offer that protection
to any character who doesn't decide to play mailbox golf in the Rekraku
arcology. :-) Even modified KP rules usually get to that point eventually.
Rather than futz around and try to find the "perfect" application of KP
rules, I've found that the simple solution of removing them completely
solved all of the problems.

The lack of a safety net gets my players to plan better and use more "shadow"
tactics and contacts and bribery etc. - rather than Rambo (TM) style tactics.
All dice are rolled out in the open. This way, they know there won't be any
"fudging" any hidden rolls by me to save their hide(s). It's up to their good
plans
and good ole' probability to keep them alive. (And good plans can usually
keep them from facing a stiation where any single catastrophic roll can kill one of
them.)

Don't get me wrong. Not by any stretch of the imagination would I
ever be categorized as a "killer GM". (The only time in recent history
that a character in my shadowrun game has died was a new player - who
decided to try and cross sectors in Denver with a bag of illegal weaponry,
got caught, came up with a story of "visiting his sick mother" - and when
that didn't fly (who knew?), proceded to pull out SMGs and "go for it".
The border guards won... :-) He has a new character and he plans much
better for things now - Darwin in action.

I tend to put it all "out there" for the players to learn in a (mostly)
game-safe environment. Then, with good research and reconnaissance, they
put together a mostly good plan and execute it. No KP necessary. And the
lack of KP keeps the tension level nice and sharp - even on "milk runs".
I don't a legion of Red Samurai to give my players pause. :-)

- Brett
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Karma Pool (was Re: Companion and Math)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:42:00 -0700
MC23 wrote:
|
| I'll try that constuctive thing I've heard about here <grin>. I was
| thinking about the same option last night. Being skimpy apparantly on
| Karma awards and trading off between a few friends games I never had the
| problem of an excessive amount of Karma pool. At this time I'm not sure
| what would be a good cost for it.

I was think of setting the increase multiplier at x1 (same as a specialized
skill or attribute). If my player with 36 KP were to convert it to good
Karma, and then purchase KP as a skill (x1) he would have a KP of 7.

| As far as burning karma. If the cost
| of buying the karma is low then I would let the standard rules apply. I
| run game with stages, so to speak, in them where I award small amounts of
| karma so I would consider a higher cost for Karma with 'burned' points
| returned after the larger goal is completed or possible returned like
| force points are from WEG's Star Wars. Another option would be for Karma
| Pools being a special award as the GM sees fit (no suggestions for a
| guide rule there, sorry). All of these options (including the earning
| ratio from the Companion or varients there of) have merits for avoiding
| Karma Pool buildup.

The only games I've played with something similar to KP are
James Bond (Hero Points) and Star Wars (Force Points).

In James Bond HPs are gained by getting lucky with success
tests (luck breeds luck). And its spent (burned) at a high
enough rate (JB never wears armor, only carries a pistol,
spends a lot of HP :) that it never becomes a problem.
It's also an major part of the game.

In Star Wars FPs are granted by the GM, and the game has
pretty narrow definition of what is required so it doesn't
become a problem (my character only ever gained *one* FP).
And again, it's part of the game.

| I'm wondering what those of you with long term ongoing campaigns
| (with the large Karma build up) have as far as ideas on the subject
| matter.

(Fresh Meat! :) This is one of my main gripes.

First, I'll relate the problems I ran into.

Adventures become hard to balance, and the narrow line
between a challenging adventure and a deadly adventure
becomes pretty thin.

The amount of re-rolling starts to bog down the game.

What I did was to start refreshing the KP at the *end* of a
scene. I also abolished using KP to re-roll failures. And
I now allow characters to spend KP on automatic successes
without burning it (at a cost per success equal to the TN
of the test divided by 6 (round up)).

That certainly sped up the game, and my players are
thinking a lot more when they spend karma. My games also
have acquired a cinematic feel to them (character walks
around the corner into a sentry gun as it opens fire on
full-auto, PC spends 14 KP as he dives for cover and
screams for help).

Some people wait till the end of a session, or the end of
an adventure before refreshing the KP.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Karma Pool (was Re: Companion and Math), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!