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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Killing Hands
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 11:33:55 +0100
Benjamin said on 19:53/28 Dec 96...

> >As I recall, the way it was worded seemed to suggest that you buy it at
> >Light in creation and upgrade by paying the difference in cost as more
> >magic points became available. Since you had then paid for each level at
> >once, you could use Killing Hands at any Damage level you wished. But
> >then, since I don't have the SRII book, I'm A) working from memory, and
> >B) quite possibly mis-quoting.

You can pay extra Magic Points to upgrade the power, but that would only
allow you to use Killing Hands at the highest level you bought: take it at
M during character generation, then upgrade it to S by initiating, and you
can hit someone for (str)S Physical or (str)M Stun [=normal HtH damage],
but not (str)M Physical.

> To do that would cost:(I don't have the book either)
> L cost+M cost+S cost+D cost
> making it much more expensive than D.

Doing it this way, though, _does_ give you the ability to hit someone for
(str)L Physical, (str)S Physical, or whatever you choose. It would cost
7.5 Magic Points, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 2
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Killing Hands
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:39:04 -0800
I'm having trouble finding the specific rules: does Killing Hands work on
Astral Entities?

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'

ICQ UIN: 5719591 iCHAT Pager Name: lucifer3

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/9563
Message no. 3
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:09:22 PST
>I'm having trouble finding the specific rules: does Killing Hands work
on
>Astral Entities?

I don't remember if it's mana or physical. If the target resists
with Willpower(which I think it does) then I would say yes. If they
resist w/ body, then that would it's a physical spell, and so that would
be a 'no'.



-Vagabond (nomad74@*******.com)
¹vag·a·bond \va-ge-bänd\ adj. 1: wandering, homeless
2: of, characteristic of, or leading the life of a vagrant
or tramp 3: leading an unsettled or irresponsible life

²vagabond n: one leading a vagabond life; esp : tramp


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Message no. 4
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:12:17 +0000
On 9 Jan 98, lucifer disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> I'm having trouble finding the specific rules: does Killing Hands
> work on Astral Entities?

Yep. Like hot knife on butter... Errr... through butter... Nevermind.

Anyway, why did you think physads are referred to as "astral cleaning
squad"?

(Now, if only Mystic Armor would work on Astral... <grin>)


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars fan and Amber junkie; ICQ UIN 6947998; FIAWOL; WTF TKD TOO;
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
I know my mind. And it's around here someplace.
Message no. 5
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 20:56:38 -0600
>I'm having trouble finding the specific rules: does Killing Hands work on
>Astral Entities?

Sure does. Very well in fact, although you will also need to be Astrally
Perceiving at the time IIRC. Physical Adepts arent usually fast enough to
hit astrally projecting things, however they are darned good on smashing
wards, foci, and whatnot.

Hope this helped!
Message no. 6
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:56:46 PST
>I'm having trouble finding the specific rules: does Killing Hands >work
on Astral Entities?

In what way?

Yes, it is effective against creatureswith immunity to normal wepons, so
manifest spirits or vampiric pawns can be attacked with it and the
immunity defense won't apply. This is noted in the Killing Hands
description.

If using astral sight to attack a purely astral entity, conduct astral
combat as normal- no effect is noted for astral combat. In fact, it is
only described asapplyingto Unarmed Combat attacks. I'd say itis a
power of the adepts physical being only. I think many do let it apply
in astral combat- does it ever say in a book it does? I don't think so.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


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Message no. 7
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:12:09 PST
>> I'm having trouble finding the specific rules: does Killing Hands
>> work on Astral Entities?
>
>Yep. Like hot knife on butter... Errr... through butter... Nevermind.

The only way to attack a purely astral entity is astral combat. Does it
ever say that Killing hands can be used in astral combat ? Would damage
bebased on strenght, or charisma? Killing hands is NOT on the chart for
damage in astral combat!


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Message no. 8
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:13:36 -0600
>The only way to attack a purely astral entity is astral combat. Does it
>ever say that Killing hands can be used in astral combat ? Would damage
>bebased on strenght, or charisma? Killing hands is NOT on the chart for
>damage in astral combat!

Pg147 BBB: "Note that a physical adept is able to use killing hands ability
to full effect on the astral plane. Remember also that physical adepts can
only astrally perceive; they cannot project."

Physical adepts cannot project, therefore their stats while perceiving are
identical to their normal stats. You only have astral stats while astrally
projecting.

Basically, all of this means that a physical adept with Killing Hands and
Astral Perception is darned effective when fighting wards, spells, foci,
and astral stuff that cant move around too fast.

For more info, check out pgs145-150 BBB.

Hope this helped!

-John
Message no. 9
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:54:36 -0500
Mon goose once dared to write,

>>> I'm having trouble finding the specific rules: does Killing Hands
>>> work on Astral Entities?
>>
>>Yep. Like hot knife on butter... Errr... through butter... Nevermind.
>
>The only way to attack a purely astral entity is astral combat. Does it
>ever say that Killing hands can be used in astral combat ? Would damage
>bebased on strenght, or charisma? Killing hands is NOT on the chart for
>damage in astral combat!

With Astral Perception a PhysAd can attack astral entities using
their unarmed combat skill as per astral combat. Damage is based on
strength since the act of astral perceiving makes one a dual natured
being for the duration. Dual natured beings do use their physical
attributes in astral space and not their mental counterparts. That means
even in astral space you still do not want to fight a dragon.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"When _I_ use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful
tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
-Through the Looking Glass

I am MC23
Message no. 10
From: Scott Roberts <shayd@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 03:00:43 -0500
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, John Dukes wrote:

> Pg147 BBB: "Note that a physical adept is able to use killing hands ability
> to full effect on the astral plane. Remember also that physical adepts can
> only astrally perceive; they cannot project."
>
> Physical adepts cannot project, therefore their stats while perceiving are
> identical to their normal stats. You only have astral stats while astrally
> projecting.

So....what if I'm a physical magician with killing hands? :)

>
> Basically, all of this means that a physical adept with Killing Hands and
> Astral Perception is darned effective when fighting wards, spells, foci,
> and astral stuff that cant move around too fast.
>
> For more info, check out pgs145-150 BBB.
>
> Hope this helped!
>
> -John
>

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You Don't Like My Point Of View, You Think That I'm Insane..."
Scott "Shayd" Roberts
shayd@**.cybernex.net ** http://www.cybernex.net/shayd
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:30:30 -0600
>So....what if I'm a physical magician with killing hands? :)


Pg119 Awakenings: "Because they focus so much of their talent on the
physical aspect of magic, physical magicians begin without access to astral
space. They may purchase and use the adept power of astral perception
normally, but can never use astral projection."

Physical mages cant project. It works the same as for physical adepts.

Take Care!

-John
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:15:06 +0100
Scott Roberts said on 3:00/10 Jan 98...

> > Physical adepts cannot project, therefore their stats while perceiving are
> > identical to their normal stats. You only have astral stats while astrally
> > projecting.
>
> So....what if I'm a physical magician with killing hands? :)

Then you cannot astrally project, and can only astrally perceive if you've
bought the relevant physad power, so you still follow the standard rules
as per SRII. Next question.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
In the garden.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 13
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:33:33 -0800
At 2:12 AM 1/10/98, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
>> I'm having trouble finding the specific rules: does Killing Hands
>> work on Astral Entities?
>
>Yep. Like hot knife on butter... Errr... through butter... Nevermind.

BBB p. 147:

"Ša physical adept is able to use killing hands ability to full effect on
the astral place."

Of course unless he can astrally perceive or somehow see the target some
other way, he'll be striking blindly.

>(Now, if only Mystic Armor would work on Astral... <grin>)
>

Living crystal armor in SR? I like it!

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@*********.com)
Photography/Design

Hey, there's a URL in my sig file now!
Check it out at: www.lowephoto.com.

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Message no. 14
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:41:53 -0500
On Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 02:12:17AM +0000, Leszek Karlik, aka Mike wrote:
> On 9 Jan 98, lucifer disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
> writing:
>
> > I'm having trouble finding the specific rules: does Killing Hands
> > work on Astral Entities?
>
> Yep. Like hot knife on butter... Errr... through butter... Nevermind.
>
> Anyway, why did you think physads are referred to as "astral cleaning
> squad"?
>
> (Now, if only Mystic Armor would work on Astral... <grin>)
>
>
Interesting thought. I might be willing to give half the rating.
Makes a good house rule nevertheless. Gives you one more reason
to play one and would add even more fule to the PA vs samurai debate. :)



--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 15
From: William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:04:28 +0100
>Interesting thought. I might be willing to give half the rating.
>Makes a good house rule nevertheless. Gives you one more reason
>to play one and would add even more fule to the PA vs samurai debate. :)

I always considered it worked. For the PA vs Sams, I don't see how a street
sam could fight in astral so there's no debate.


Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"
Message no. 16
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:58:56 -0500
On Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 04:04:28PM +0100, William Gallas wrote:
> >Interesting thought. I might be willing to give half the rating.
> >Makes a good house rule nevertheless. Gives you one more reason
> >to play one and would add even more fule to the PA vs samurai debate. :)
>
> I always considered it worked. For the PA vs Sams, I don't see how a street
> sam could fight in astral so there's no debate.
>
>
I like the idea, and I'm off to add it to my house rules.
Heh..we seem to infrequently argue which is better a sam or
a PA. Over time, it seems PA's have their own unique nitch.
Later.


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 17
From: Wildfire <thierryt@*********.CA>
Subject: Killing Hands
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:07:03 -0500
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Well ... ive been on this list for about 2 years now and i never really =
posted anything. Better late than never i guess. =)

Here's a little retake i did on the Killing hands powers for adepts. Id =
like your guys opinion on it before i propose it to my GM. Is it to =
powerful or whatever. Your opinion would be greatly appreciated.

Killing Hands

Killing Hands gives the adept the ability to turn his unarmed combat =
attacks into deadly physical damage. When unarmed combat, an adept with =
killing hands may choose to do either the normal stun damage or the =
improved physical damage, as purchased. See the table below for the =
costs for each of the four different levels of Killing hands available. =
Additionally, the Killing hands powers adds 1/3 of the adept’s =
strength (rounded evenly) to the power of his attacks.

Ghost the adept has a strength of 6 and the Killing Hands power at level =
M. When he uses his unarmed combat skill, He can either choose to do =
either stun damage at his regular strength, meaning 6M (stun) in this =
case. Or he can choose to do the improved physical damage, meaning 8M. =
(Strength 6, 6/3=2, 6+2=8). If he later increased his strength to =
7,whether through Karma or the increased Strength power, his Killing =
Hands attacks would now be 9M. (Str 7, 7/3=2.3 rounded to 2, 7+2=9). =
If he again increased his strength to 8, the power of his unarmed combat =
attacks would now be 11. (Str 8, 8/3=2.6 rounded to 3, 8+3=11). And =
so on.

Wildfire




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3509.100"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
color=#000000 =
face=Arial size=2>Well
... ive been on this list for about 2 years now and i never really =
posted
anything.&nbsp; Better late than never i guess. =)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Here's a little retake i did on the =
Killing hands
powers for adepts.&nbsp; Id like your guys opinion on it before i =
propose it to
my GM.&nbsp; Is it to powerful or whatever.&nbsp; Your opinion would be =
greatly
appreciated. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><U><FONT face="Comic
Sans MS" =
size=3>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Killing
Hands</FONT></P></U>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Killing Hands gives the adept the ability
=
to turn his
unarmed combat attacks into deadly physical damage. When unarmed combat, =
an
adept with killing hands may choose to do either the normal stun damage =
or the
improved physical damage, as purchased. See the table below for the =
costs for
each of the four different levels of Killing hands available. =
Additionally, the
Killing hands powers adds 1/3 of the adept&rsquo;s strength (rounded =
evenly) to
the power of his attacks. </FONT></P>
<P><I><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ghost the adept has a strength
of 6 =
and the
Killing Hands power at level M.&nbsp; </FONT><FONT face=Arial =
size=2>When he
uses his unarmed combat skill, He can either choose to do either stun =
damage at
his regular strength, meaning 6M (stun) in this case. Or he can choose =
to do the
improved physical damage, meaning 8M. (Strength 6, 6/3=2, 6+2=8). If =
he later
increased his strength to 7,whether through Karma or the increased =
Strength
power, his Killing Hands attacks would now be 9M. (Str 7, 7/3=2.3 =
rounded to 2,
7+2=9). If he again increased his strength to 8, the power of his =
unarmed combat
attacks would now be 11. (Str 8, 8/3=2.6 rounded to 3, 8+3=11). And =
so
on.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial =
size=2>Wildfire </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</P></I></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Message no. 18
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:41:18 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Wildfire <thierryt@*********.CA>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 20 November 1998 09:13
Subject: Killing Hands



Killing Hands

Killing Hands gives the adept the ability to turn his unarmed combat
attacks into deadly physical damage. When unarmed combat, an adept
with killing hands may choose to do either the normal stun damage or
the improved physical damage, as purchased. See the table below for
the costs for each of the four different levels of Killing hands
available. Additionally, the Killing hands powers adds 1/3 of the
adept’s strength (rounded evenly) to the power of his attacks.

<snip example>

In reply

I dont see where this diverges in a meaningful way from the standard
rules.
You've added the strength bonus thing. I dont see a logic behind it or
an explanation for it.
You've neglected to mention that you can attack Astral critters or
folks if you have APerception.

IMHO, stich with SR3 rules unless you have something really NEW you
want to do.

Thanks for listening

BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Yo soy un disco quebrado
Yo tengo chicle en cerebro
sm:)e
Message no. 19
From: westln@***.EDU
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:16:19 -0500
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Wildfire <thierryt@*********.CA>
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
>Date: 20 November 1998 09:13
>Subject: Killing Hands
>
>
>
>Killing Hands
>
>Killing Hands gives the adept the ability to turn his unarmed combat
>attacks into deadly physical damage. When unarmed combat, an adept
>with killing hands may choose to do either the normal stun damage or
>the improved physical damage, as purchased. See the table below for
>the costs for each of the four different levels of Killing hands
>available. Additionally, the Killing hands powers adds 1/3 of the
>adept’s strength (rounded evenly) to the power of his attacks.
>
><snip example>
>
>In reply
>
>I dont see where this diverges in a meaningful way from the standard
>rules.
>You've added the strength bonus thing. I dont see a logic behind it or
>an explanation for it.
>You've neglected to mention that you can attack Astral critters or
>folks if you have APerception.
>
>IMHO, stich with SR3 rules unless you have something really NEW you
>want to do.
>
>Thanks for listening
>
> BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
>*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
> Yo soy un disco quebrado
> Yo tengo chicle en cerebro
> sm:)e

I agree with Bruce. The only thing you have added is a strength bonus for
unarmed combat. You could make that a seperate Physad power. It would be
cheaper than the normal atribute improvement cost because it's only usefull
in unarm combat.

Did anyone else notice that mages in astral combat in SR3 now do a base
damage of M verses L. They basically moved it up one level. Now that might
be a reason to stage killing hands up a level aswell in astral combat only.
In astral unarm combat the damage is already physical strength. That makes
the first level of killings hands worse than the default in astral combat.
And the second level equivalent to the default.

-
Lorden
Message no. 20
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:02:58 -0600
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:16:19 -0500 westln@***.EDU writes:
<SNIP>
>Did anyone else notice that mages in astral combat in SR3 now do a base
>damage of M verses L. They basically moved it up one level. Now that
might
>be a reason to stage killing hands up a level aswell in astral combat
only.
>In astral unarm combat the damage is already physical strength. That
makes
>the first level of killings hands worse than the default in astral
combat.
>And the second level equivalent to the default.

What about revising Killing hands to do [str] (Killing Hands level) in
addition to normal attacks just like the Shock Glove (See SR3 page 122)
... of course that could get silly ... imagine a physical adept with
Killing Hands M, a shock glove, and a strength of 6. S/He'd do 5M Stun +
7S Stun + 6M Physical per strike...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Simon and Fiona)
Subject: Killing Hands
Date: Thu Apr 5 00:05:09 2001
Is it true that in the 3rd edition there is no penalty for the Killing
Hands/Distance Strike combo? If it definitely states that this is not
possible, could you please quote the page and section so that I can send it
along to a friend.
Thanks.
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Peter Kristiansen)
Subject: Killing Hands
Date: Thu Apr 5 02:50:01 2001
> Is it true that in the 3rd edition there is no penalty for the
Killing
> Hands/Distance Strike combo? If it definitely states that this is
not
> possible, could you please quote the page and section so that I can
send it
> along to a friend.
> Thanks.
>
It seems that they removed the price increase from SRII. Such that you
just pay for killing hands and then for distance strike (or vice
versa)..

Peter

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Killing Hands, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!