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Message no. 1
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Killing Hands / astral combat
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:55:23 PST
Does it ever say that Killing hands can be used in astral combat ?
Would damage be based on strenght, or charisma? Killing hands is NOT on
the chart for damage in astral combat!
>
>Pg147 BBB: "Note that a physical adept is able to use killing hands
>ability to full effect on the astral plane. Remember also that
>physical adepts can only astrally perceive; they cannot project."
>

Thanks, Jhon, I'd forgoten that bit- I knew there was some reason people
played it that way ! (never came up in our games- weird, because every
othe magical mutation DOES).

>Physical adepts cannot project, therefore their stats while >perceiving
are identical to their normal stats. You only have astral >stats while
astrally projecting.
>

Now, there I differ:

The only thing "Astral Perception" says is that "The magicial is also
vulnerable to astral combat, p. 147".
(Gee, "is also vulnerable too?" How's about "can kick ass in"? Wish
they had made that clearer!)

Aside from the constraints on peception mentioned in that section, the
section on Astral Combat makes no differentiation between those using
astral peception and those projecting, so I always assumed both used the
astal stats and damage codes for astral combat, as per that section.
The one exception being, as you noted, killing hands.

Otherwise, a troll mage would attack quite well in astral combat if only
astrally percieving, not projecting, and physical adepts would indead
clean up in astral combat, even without killing hands.

Remember, a person using astral perception is not actually a dual being.
Astral combat is astral combat- you can use sorcery, even if only
percieving, so I'd say you use all the other rules for astral combat, as
well.



Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
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Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands / astral combat
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:35:23 -0500
> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
> Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 9:55 PM

> >Physical adepts cannot project, therefore their stats while >perceiving
> are identical to their normal stats. You only have astral >stats while
> astrally projecting.

> Now, there I differ:

And I differ with you. ;)

> The only thing "Astral Perception" says is that "The magicial is also
> vulnerable to astral combat, p. 147".
> (Gee, "is also vulnerable too?" How's about "can kick ass in"?
Wish
> they had made that clearer!)

> Aside from the constraints on peception mentioned in that section, the
> section on Astral Combat makes no differentiation between those using
> astral peception and those projecting, so I always assumed both used the
> astal stats and damage codes for astral combat, as per that section.
> The one exception being, as you noted, killing hands.

I disagree. :) The astral attributes are listed under Astral Projection,
not under the Astral Perception section. Since the Astral Perception
section comes first, it would make sense to list the astral attributes
there if they applied.

> Otherwise, a troll mage would attack quite well in astral combat if only
> astrally percieving, not projecting, and physical adepts would indead
> clean up in astral combat, even without killing hands.

Only if they could reach their opponent. Keep in mind that astral entities
can move several thousand kilometers an hour. If they want to be out of
reach of the perceiving being, they will be....almost instantly.

> Remember, a person using astral perception is not actually a dual being.
> Astral combat is astral combat- you can use sorcery, even if only
> percieving, so I'd say you use all the other rules for astral combat, as
> well.

I agree, except where astral stats are concerned.

> Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
> of a psychotic - Einstein

Justin :)
Message no. 3
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands / astral combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:01:06 PST
>> Aside from the constraints on peception mentioned in that section,
the section on Astral Combat makes no differentiation between those
using astral peception and those projecting, so I always assumed both
used the astal stats and damage codes for astral combat, as per that
section.
>> The one exception being, as you noted, killing hands.
>
>I disagree. :) The astral attributes are listed under Astral
Projection, not under the Astral Perception section. Since the Astral
Perception section comes first, it would make sense to list the astral
attributes there if they applied.
>

A valid point, but not a decisive one. It obviously could have been
more clearly stated. Inb fact, it never explicitely says there that a
person using astral perception can ATTACK using astral combat!

>> Remember, a person using astral perception is not actually a dual
being.
>> Astral combat is astral combat- you can use sorcery, even if only
>> percieving, so I'd say you use all the other rules for astral combat,
as well.
>
>I agree, except where astral stats are concerned.
>

It may be valid not to give astral stats for those percieving, but then
howdo they fight in astralcombat? Do they get no astral pool? Can they
use normal combat pool.

"Astral combat is Astral combat" seemed the simplest answer, and jibes
with how I veiw using Astral perception: It is like a limited form of
projection that allows you access to the astral plane, but your "sprit"
does not move seperately from your body. Full astral projection is
basically advanced astral perception: you body goes into a comma /
trance, and your spirit roams free, seperated from the body.

Doing it a little differently isn't any cause for flying fur, and it may
well have been left open as an intentional judgement call. In fact, its
part of why I asked such a detailed question.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
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Message no. 4
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands / astral combat
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:08:15 +0000
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:01:06 PST Mon goose wrote

[SNIP]
> >> Remember, a person using astral perception is not actually a dual
> being.
> >> Astral combat is astral combat- you can use sorcery, even if only
> >> percieving, so I'd say you use all the other rules for astral combat,
> as well.
> >
> >I agree, except where astral stats are concerned.
> >
>
> It may be valid not to give astral stats for those percieving, but then
> howdo they fight in astralcombat? Do they get no astral pool? Can they
> use normal combat pool.
>
> "Astral combat is Astral combat" seemed the simplest answer, and jibes
> with how I veiw using Astral perception: It is like a limited form of
> projection that allows you access to the astral plane, but your "sprit"
> does not move seperately from your body. Full astral projection is
> basically advanced astral perception: you body goes into a comma /
> trance, and your spirit roams free, seperated from the body.

Um, apart from the +2 penalty to purely real world actions who will
that differ from dual nature ? I still think that a perceiving
person will have his normal physical stats. If you are projecting
and tied to your body then you are astrally active abd tied to your
body. That meshes with the description of dual nature.
Just wondering because my view of perception if the same as yours.


Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 5
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing Hands / astral combat
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:24:08 PST
>> "Astral combat is Astral combat" seemed the simplest answer, and
jibes with how I veiw using Astral perception: It is like a limited
form of projection that allows you access to the astral plane, but your
"sprit" does not move seperately from your body. Full astral projection
is basically advanced astral perception: you body goes into a comma /
trance, and your spirit roams free, seperated from the body.
>>
>Um, apart from the +2 penalty to purely real world actions how will
>that differ from dual nature ? I still think that a perceiving
>person will have his normal physical stats. If you are projecting
>and tied to your body then you are astrally active abd tied to your
>body. That meshes with the description of dual nature.
>Just wondering because my view of perception if the same as yours.
>

It differs in several ways. Being temporarily dual natured means you
use all your physical stats IN ASTRAL SPACE. I would say a percieving
mage resists astral attacks with willpower instead of body. OF course,
for physical attacks, he still uses Body.

Thats the most signifigant stat change, since movement is restricted by
the physical body. However, I might allow astral reaction to be used
for suprise tests that occur purely on that plane. Not for intiative,
just suprise tests.

Charisma L is a mages normal astral combat damage code (this maybe true
by the "dual nature" interprtation, as well, if you can only use astral
combat).
A dual natured "mage" would benifit from any implanted cyberware, like
spurs, orthoskin, or a dermal sheath- that makes getting nasty wepons
and armor on the astral to easy. He could even just use his nomal(str)M
stun fists. If he's partially projected, thats not the case. Well,
maybe the orthoskin would come along- it's his living tissue. Its
admitedly, a split hair, but this shit actually comes up in play.

With all deference to Steve's statement that astral perception is like a
crappier form of dual nature, Astral Projection is described as "The
next step beyond astral perception...". So, IMO, astral perception
should be as much like projection as possible. Making it equivalent to
being dual natured takes it in a different direction.

True Dual nature might be a cool physad or Initiate power, though! Even
with the rules as they stand,it would rock not to have that +2 real
world penalty and all your body's shit goes dual (mystic armor, cyber,
regular unarmed damage, the whole enchilada!) If you could THEN project-
well, lets not allow that, eh?
I'd say 2 magic points for a physad, or make it available as a masking
varient, perhaps requiring you to do an instantanious astral quest to
do it. Quest rating would be... HMM, maybe highest physical attribute
minus magic rating? You must already be perceiving astraly to kick in
this power.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


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