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Message no. 1
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Killing hands / Shape Shifter
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:29:35 PST
>> Yes, and if using astral combat, isn't strength equal to charisma?
>> So killing hands does (charisma)(level) in astral combat?
>
>Well, no, I don't think so. It's Str, like in Attribute name... Not
>(normal unarmed combat power level, namely Strength, unless using
>Astral combat) (level).
>(Hmmm... That might not fit in the table... Naah.)
>

The Issue is pretty settled by Steve's saying that folks using astral
perception does NOT get astral attributes (although, then, what damage
do they do in astral combat, Steve? Can they use regular unarmed
"physical form" damage or, shudder, implant weapons?)

I like the idea that perception phases your "spirit" into the astral
while your still in your body and you opperate there as a purely astral
being with some movement limits. Steve doesn't- he says your dual
natured, but with a penalty for purely physical actions. We will try to
play by Steve's rules : I'm neither GM nor a mage player currently.

>> projecting shapeshifters are pretty scary...
>>
>> Well, not that scary, IMO- thier reaction is a lot lower than an
>> astral mages astral reaction (Twice Intellegence!), and they can
>> only project in HUMAN form. And how much better are thier physical
>> stats than a mages mental stats, really? And where do they get
>> Armor? Everyone says they would get it, but none of them have
>> natural armor!
>
>Oh. What a stupid rule. Well, I think I'll just kinda ignore it.
>Shapeshifter's TRUE form is that of an Animal, so in astral space,
>where everybody looks like an idealized image of himself, he looks
>lik a human? I don't think so...

Yes, but if its true form is ALWAYS animal, that gives its human form
differnt astral stats (the animals) than the physical (the humans)...
Which goes against the whole point of a dual natured critter.
It would make more sense they can only project as ANIMAL, but then
they'd regenerate while on astral quests...Maybe no regeneration ifnot
in animal body?

>As for Armor, it's only possible for a Bear shapeshifter, IIRC...
>(But think about tiger's Reach and natural damage... Ouch.)

MM, yeah, but its not all that. Projecting Elf with a weapon focus, say
a staff or pole-ax? Pricey, yes, but so is being a shapeshifter, and
its a bit less conspicuos, IMO.


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Message no. 2
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Killing hands / Shape Shifter
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:07:43 +0000
On 12 Jan 98, Mon goose disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip>
> >Oh. What a stupid rule. Well, I think I'll just kinda ignore it.
> >Shapeshifter's TRUE form is that of an Animal, so in astral space,
> >where everybody looks like an idealized image of himself, he looks
> >lik a human? I don't think so...
>
> Yes, but if its true form is ALWAYS animal, that gives its human
> form differnt astral stats (the animals) than the physical (the
> humans)... Which goes against the whole point of a dual natured
> critter. It would make more sense they can only project as ANIMAL,
> but then they'd regenerate while on astral quests...Maybe no
> regeneration ifnot in animal body?

Well, I'd say that when astrally perceiving, it has the same
attributes as its current form (and it looks like a humanoid
animal...), but when projecting, he always looks like an animal.

Although no, IMO no astral regeneration is allowed when projecting,
since it involves interaction of the astral and physical part...
(Just like flame projection of a hellhound)

> >As for Armor, it's only possible for a Bear shapeshifter, IIRC...
> >(But think about tiger's Reach and natural damage... Ouch.)
>
> MM, yeah, but its not all that. Projecting Elf with a weapon focus,
> say a staff or pole-ax? Pricey, yes, but so is being a
> shapeshifter, and its a bit less conspicuos, IMO.

Heh. Well, definitively pricey... Hmmm... Could a shapeshifter use a
weapon focus? What about a specially made "glove" for his animal form
(more like a bracer with a built-in spur)?


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/HSP
Since using your shampoo, my hair has come alive. Signed: Medusa.
Message no. 3
From: Andy Gardner <A.Gardner@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing hands / Shape Shifter
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:20:32 +0000
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:07:43 +0000 "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" wrote

> On 12 Jan 98, Mon goose disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
> writing:
>
> <snip>
> > >Oh. What a stupid rule. Well, I think I'll just kinda ignore it.
> > >Shapeshifter's TRUE form is that of an Animal, so in astral space,
> > >where everybody looks like an idealized image of himself, he looks
> > >lik a human? I don't think so...
> >
> > Yes, but if its true form is ALWAYS animal, that gives its human
> > form differnt astral stats (the animals) than the physical (the
> > humans)... Which goes against the whole point of a dual natured
> > critter. It would make more sense they can only project as ANIMAL,
> > but then they'd regenerate while on astral quests...Maybe no
> > regeneration ifnot in animal body?
>
> Well, I'd say that when astrally perceiving, it has the same
> attributes as its current form (and it looks like a humanoid
> animal...), but when projecting, he always looks like an animal.
>
> Although no, IMO no astral regeneration is allowed when projecting,
> since it involves interaction of the astral and physical part...
> (Just like flame projection of a hellhound)

That makes sense and balances in game as well. It's what I've been
using.

> > >As for Armor, it's only possible for a Bear shapeshifter, IIRC...
> > >(But think about tiger's Reach and natural damage... Ouch.)
> >
> > MM, yeah, but its not all that. Projecting Elf with a weapon focus,
> > say a staff or pole-ax? Pricey, yes, but so is being a
> > shapeshifter, and its a bit less conspicuos, IMO.
>
> Heh. Well, definitively pricey... Hmmm... Could a shapeshifter use a
> weapon focus? What about a specially made "glove" for his animal form
> (more like a bracer with a built-in spur)?

If they pay for the access to magic they get the foci as well.
Of course, sliver is a standard material, is decorative and doesn't
tarnish much :)
I personally force everybody who plays 'shifters to get custom-made
foci which exclude silver from their construction.

My character is designing a set of fighting spurs to strap to the
back of the paw/hand. The small set of straps is part of the focus
construction and will project together with the focus.
The large set of straps will be used in human form or staped on
backwards when in physical animal form.
That's if I can't somehow combine the fashion spell with the focus
straps. My character knows the spell and uses a modified involuntary
version as well.


Fox on the Net
ICQ UIN - 5239612
Message no. 4
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Killing hands / Shape Shifter
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:06:53 PST
>> > Yes, but if its true form is ALWAYS animal, that gives its human
>> > form differnt astral stats (the animals) than the physical (the
>> > humans)... Which goes against the whole point of a dual natured
>> > critter. It would make more sense they can only project as ANIMAL,
>> > but then they'd regenerate while on astral quests...Maybe no
>> > regeneration ifnot in animal body?
>>
>> Well, I'd say that when astrally perceiving, it has the same
>> attributes as its current form (and it looks like a humanoid
>> animal...), but when projecting, he always looks like an animal.

Why would a shape shifter mage EVER useastral perception? No, he's
walking around in human form, dual natured, and his aura is some sort of
animal with the same stats as- the Human? Yup, guess so.

>> > >As for Armor, it's only possible for a Bear shapeshifter,
IIRC...(But think about tiger's Reach and natural damage... Ouch.)
>> >

>> > MM, yeah, but its not all that. Projecting Elf with a weapon
focus, say a staff or pole-ax? Pricey, yes, but so is being a
>> > shapeshifter, and its a bit less conspicuos, IMO.
>>
>> Heh. Well, definitively pricey... Hmmm... Could a shapeshifter use a
weapon focus? What about a specially made "glove" for his animal form
(more like a bracer with a built-in spur)?
>

Rating 1, reach 2 weapon focus is ~300KY, and worth every freaking penny
when shit gets nasty on astral patrol. Iplayed a troll who had a staff
weapon focus (less damage, but he could go in public with it). Reach 3
ASTRAL?!


>I personally force everybody who plays 'shifters to get custom-made
>foci which exclude silver from their construction.

Possibly valid. I'd just up availibilty. A staff, for exampl,is mostly
wood- the only reason to usesilver is as a rare-arcanum. Its not hard
enough for inlay on a wooden weapon.

>
>My character is designing a set of fighting spurs to strap to the
>back of the paw/hand. The small set of straps is part of the focus
>construction and will project together with the focus.
>The large set of straps will be used in human form or staped on
>backwards when in physical animal form.
>That's if I can't somehow combine the fashion spell with the focus
>straps. My character knows the spell and uses a modified involuntary
>version as well.

My first reaction is that that is really cheasy.
But, Barding for warhourse and dogs was in fact soemtimes designed to
integrate some "weapons"- probably more for intimidation and looks than
function.
Putting these on in animal form might be tough, but once on,it could
work. I wouldn't expect any spetacular damage codes, or reach, though.
The dice could be nice, however. IMO, being a shapeshifter Kinda
precludes the need for stuff- spend the karma on strenngth and unarmed
combat skills, for very similar effect. I'm sure theres some advantage,
though.

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Message no. 5
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Killing hands / Shape Shifter
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:49:46 -0500
> From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
> Date: Monday, January 12, 1998 6:06 PM

> Rating 1, reach 2 weapon focus is ~300KY, and worth every freaking penny
> when shit gets nasty on astral patrol. Iplayed a troll who had a staff
> weapon focus (less damage, but he could go in public with it). Reach 3
> ASTRAL?!

I may be incorrect (I can't look it up at the moment without my books), but
I don't think reach applies on the Astral. Anyone else know about this?

Justin :)

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