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Message no. 1
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 00:00:10 -0700 (PDT)
A couple of weeks ago, (in the middle of the Sammie & mage
discussion), I said I was going to bring something up I had been thinking
about for a while. Well, here it is...

Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
there kill casually? I mean, think about it, people generally don't go
around offing people... usually there is some extreme emotion involved.
In SRII, it seems like alot of chars just say "He's there, so I'll kill
him." Most of my chars are relatively opposed to killing... in champions
terms, my SRII chars have 5-15 pt CAKs (codes against killing). Are
there other characters out there who are like this, or am I the only one?

---Tom---


--The ex-double parethesis guy--
Message no. 2
From: HALOWEEN JACK <sbc3kcb@*******.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:56:34 GMT
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>

In SRII, it seems like alot of chars just say "He's there, so I'll
kill him." Most of my chars are relatively opposed to killing... in
champions terms, my SRII chars have 5-15 pt CAKs (codes against
killing). Are there other characters out there who are like this, or am
I the only one?

If you think that is bad, in the campaign I am currently we have a
player with absolutely no concern for other people. If he is in his
car and people cross the road in front of his car, he will try to run
them over. Even my character Haloween Jack who started of as a
physical adept hitman has more morels.

Anyway, soon the ultimate setup is about to fall into place. I have
been planning this with the GM for about 8 months it one of the
characters in the group. One of the characters in the group is really
obnoxious and has cased the group some major hassle, like killing the
johnson because he stopped the character from smoking and in another
run killing the woman we were hired to guard because she turned down
his advances. The character was a real arrogant Son of a Bitch how
thought that he was team leader and more important than anybody else
in the group.
Anyway back to the plot I have been slowly turning my character into
a Mantis Physical adept and doing very well, initiate grade 10,
killing hands D, increased reflexes +3, astral perception etc. and
seeing that my character was getting more powerful he started
threaten my character because he could see he had lost his position
of power. So it was set up that the last session in University for me
will be the conclusion of the plot.

I have set up extensive contacts with the Desolation Angels in
Chicago using starting contacts so you can see this plot has
been hatched from the begining of about 3 years of IRL game play.
I know that the Desolation Angels comprise solely of Mantis spirits
so have thought as a way to have a climatic conclusion the best way
for this to happen is my character becoming a host. So it has all
been setup my character through his contacts has dug into the
background of the obnoxious player and found a contract for 500,000
put on him by MCT. Which I have ascepted and told they the exact
location of the hit and the date. It is in the CCZ and is on my
younger sisters Birthday, she is trapped in the CCZ and is being
protected by the Desolation Angels (DA). It has been setup so that
the team gets offered the contract to extract a girl form the CCZ
(Jacks sister) the money is 500,000 nuyen. It has been set up so that
the group knows that the DA have her and the location her they are
keeping her is also known.

All that needs to occur now is for the run to occur and Haloween Jack
to kill the other character (Easy when he doesn't know thatr he is
the target) and the get my sister to the rest of the group and
finally turn myself over to the Mantis spirits.

Has anyone else setup the deaths of there own characters like this
and do you think this is a fitting end.



Love is the fine line between pleasure and pain

Except when you're into S&M when it's just pain! pain! pain!

Haloween Jack
Message no. 3
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 11:44:19 EDT
Tom Pendergrast writes:
>
>
> A couple of weeks ago, (in the middle of the Sammie & mage
> discussion), I said I was going to bring something up I had been thinking
> about for a while. Well, here it is...
>
> Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
> there kill casually? I mean, think about it, people generally don't go
> around offing people... usually there is some extreme emotion involved.
> In SRII, it seems like alot of chars just say "He's there, so I'll kill
> him." Most of my chars are relatively opposed to killing... in champions
> terms, my SRII chars have 5-15 pt CAKs (codes against killing). Are
> there other characters out there who are like this, or am I the only one?
>

My present group doesn't do wetwork, we don't kill casually, we have
killed cyborgs, and some guys who were wacked out on combat drugs. We
killed them because we couldn't knock them down, knock them out, or other
wise incapacitate them. The gaurd doing his job usually doesn't know
we're there, if he does, he usually goes 'nite-nite', and wakes up with a
slight headache. (via stunbolt, sleep spell, or a good old fashioned thump
to the back of the head)

We're actually proud not to have left a trail of bodies where ever we go.


Pete

Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:11:37 +0200
At 9:00 Uhr 17.05.96, Tom Pendergrast wrote:
> Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
>there kill casually? I mean, think about it, people generally don't go
>around offing people... usually there is some extreme emotion involved.
>In SRII, it seems like alot of chars just say "He's there, so I'll kill
>him." Most of my chars are relatively opposed to killing... in champions
>terms, my SRII chars have 5-15 pt CAKs (codes against killing). Are
>there other characters out there who are like this, or am I the only one?

As far as I remember, many people here on the list said their characters
avoid killing.
And it has much backing, since once you have established a reputaion as
a runner who's NOT killing any SecGrunt on sight, the opposition tends
to use non-lethal reaction, too. Especially if you are known to react to
lethal threats with unleashed, destructive, all-consuming, and of course,
lethal power.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 5
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 17:32:02 +0100
In message <Pine.PMDF.3.91.960516234915.543225442B-
100000@*******.cwu.edu>, Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU> writes
> Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
>there kill casually? I mean, think about it, people generally don't go
>around offing people... usually there is some extreme emotion involved.
>In SRII, it seems like alot of chars just say "He's there, so I'll kill
>him." Most of my chars are relatively opposed to killing... in champions
>terms, my SRII chars have 5-15 pt CAKs (codes against killing). Are
>there other characters out there who are like this, or am I the only one?

Varies by character. Lynch kills calmly, though without delight and with
some regrets afterward, and tries to find non-lethal methods when he can
(gel rounds and tasers): but if he has to, he does without hesitation.

Quinn prefers to leave people alive to realise how thoroughly she scored
a joke at their expense: humour only works with an audience.

Easy is a homicidal psychopath: she doesn't look for opportunities, but
she's killed people because they were coughing in the seat behind her at
the cinema before... She just doesn't see the problem.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 6
From: Ken <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:04:47 -0700 (PDT)
On Fri, 17 May 1996, Tom Pendergrast wrote:

>
> Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
> there kill casually? I mean, think about it, people generally don't go
> around offing people... usually there is some extreme emotion involved.
> In SRII, it seems like alot of chars just say "He's there, so I'll kill
> him." Most of my chars are relatively opposed to killing... in champions
> terms, my SRII chars have 5-15 pt CAKs (codes against killing). Are
> there other characters out there who are like this, or am I the only one?
>
Usually I don't, nor most of my friends. However, it can get annoying
when _no one_ wants to kill. I ended up with a group with my mage, 2
deckers and a sammie, and no one wanted to kill! The other guys were
running around with Narcojets and since they don't work well against
armor, I ended up constantly pulling the teams rear out of the fire, I
ened up being a little more lethal than usual because they would rather
sacrifice the team than kill....uggghhh!

Nutcracker
Message no. 7
From: melchar@****.darkside.com (Melchar)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 12:02:16 PDT
> Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
> there kill casually? I mean, think about it, people generally don't go
> around offing people... usually there is some extreme emotion involved.
> In SRII, it seems like alot of chars just say "He's there, so I'll kill
> him." Most of my chars are relatively opposed to killing... in champions
> terms, my SRII chars have 5-15 pt CAKs (codes against killing). Are
> there other characters out there who are like this, or am I the only one?

Well my character is very opposed to killing, even if she's pretty
certain she'll suffer for it later. She just doesn't like to see people
die. (Just recently, she had the chance to save the life of a Yakuza and
did so, even though she learned almost immediately that the Mafia was
after him {& she's Mafia-related herself}. She still saved the guy and
got him magical healing.)
Message no. 8
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 20:17 MET DST
At 19:04 Uhr 17.5.1996, Ken wrote:
>Usually I don't, nor most of my friends. However, it can get annoying
>when _no one_ wants to kill. I ended up with a group with my mage, 2
>deckers and a sammie, and no one wanted to kill! The other guys were
>running around with Narcojets and since they don't work well against
>armor, I ended up constantly pulling the teams rear out of the fire, I
>ened up being a little more lethal than usual because they would rather
>sacrifice the team than kill....uggghhh!
Point 'em to the uses of gel ammo, tasers, the Ares ELD-AR from CorpSec
p.69, net guns, Neurostun grenades,... Narcojects are fine, but don't
try and bother a Guard with security armor with it...
Btw, using mixed ammo in a shotgun works wonder: One Gel, one Live
ammo, usually raises TN for victim faster then anything else.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 9
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:32:23 -0500
>As far as I remember, many people here on the list said their characters
>avoid killing.
>And it has much backing, since once you have established a reputaion as
>a runner who's NOT killing any SecGrunt on sight, the opposition tends
>to use non-lethal reaction, too. Especially if you are known to react to
>lethal threats with unleashed, destructive, all-consuming, and of course,
>lethal power.

Any SecGrunt who doesn't do whatever it takes to take down a terrorist (who
is attacking the corp) with every resource he has should be fired
immediately, if not shot for aiding the terrorist. SecGuards could care
less if it's a fluffy terrorist with stunballs and overstim, to them the
guy's a terrorist. And who's to say that fluffy guy doesn't have a manabolt
waiting for the first guard to underestimate him?

As far as the shadows go, you'll get a rep for always leaving behind
witnesses. Sure, you didn't kill them, which is nice to those morally
conscious Mr. Johnsons out there who don't mind their operatives being
identified. Which team do you go with as a Johnson? The nice guys who
don't kill anyone, but leave witnesses or the tough guys who put all targets
down? Both will get the job done. Both'll probably get the same pay.
Witnesses or no witnesses, that is the question.

Don't think for a minute that a corp that knows what you look like isn't
going to send a hit-team with real bullets and real attitudes after you in a
hurry. That'd be silly.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 10
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 13:32:16 -0500
> Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
>there kill casually? I mean, think about it, people generally don't go
>around offing people... usually there is some extreme emotion involved.

Depends on the setting in your campaign. If you go onto corporate grounds
with the intent to harm employees in any way, shape, or form (or more
importantly, harm the corp) you will be shot at and probably killed. If
you're lucky, it'll be a bullet. If not, it'll be the "tell us this and you
get a quick death" situation. Terrorist activities (shadowruns) demand that
sort of reaction from a corp.

Now that's for NPC's. For PC's (in our campaigns) you do whatever it takes
to get the job done. If that means loading up on APDS and piling up bodies
like bales of hay, then that's what'll happen. If it requires Cascades
loaded with Narcoject, then that's what'll happen. It is always better to
overkill than underkill, though.

TopCat killed, but didn't really understand what was going on. He still
doesn't. Vagabond went through a VERY nasty stage where he killed people
because he thought he needed a change of clothes to elude pursuit (the
infamous wino-slayings). Brutal killed and didn't care one bit. Vagabond
and Brutal both came from gang backgrounds where death is an everyday thing.
TopCat just kinda threw himself into the shadows and did what he felt he had
to. Eventually, Vagabond mellowed (right before he started college) and
he's now lost the bloodthirsty edge he had for a while.

So I guess my characters have been casual in their killings. One knows it
isn't right anymore, another still hasn't fully realized what he's doing,
while the third kills without remorse. Our campaign style breeds this,
though. Lone Star doesn't think much of bodies unless they're important
ones and bodies turn up often.

>In SRII, it seems like alot of chars just say "He's there, so I'll kill
>him." Most of my chars are relatively opposed to killing... in champions
>terms, my SRII chars have 5-15 pt CAKs (codes against killing). Are
>there other characters out there who are like this, or am I the only one?

We've never done the "He's there. I kill him" bit, but if the "he"
was
armed and ready, he'd die or get KO'd. A code against killing is a nice
thing in some games/campaigns, but in a cyberpunk campaign it can be a major
detriment. Champions is a super-hero roleplaying game and sort of lends
itself to more "heroic" play where killing is an extremely bad thing (and
hard to do, too). Closest Champions equivalent to our Shadowrun campaigns
is Dark Champions (which is a pretty cool game). Morals come into question
often, and aren't always answered the way we'd like them to be in a perfect
world. SR is not a perfect world. But I babble...

...anyway, you aren't the only one. There've been a few characters that I
knew that steadfastly refused to kill or tried as hard as they could not to.
It's all up to the player, the character, and the setting.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 11
From: "Jacob Hart" <rookie@*******.phoenix.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 14:32:25 +0000
> Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 00:00:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
> To: shadowrn@********.itribe.net
> Reply-to: shadowrn@********.itribe.net

>
> A couple of weeks ago, (in the middle of the Sammie & mage
> discussion), I said I was going to bring something up I had been thinking
> about for a while. Well, here it is...
>
> Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
> there kill casually? I mean, think about it, people generally don't go
> around offing people... usually there is some extreme emotion involved.
> In SRII, it seems like alot of chars just say "He's there, so I'll kill
> him." Most of my chars are relatively opposed to killing... in champions
> terms, my SRII chars have 5-15 pt CAKs (codes against killing). Are
> there other characters out there who are like this, or am I the only one?
>
> ---Tom---
>
>
> --The ex-double parethesis guy--
>
>
>

My character dutifully does his best not to kill people. It is
against his will to hurt anybody, unless they try to hurt him. When
That happens he usually tries to knock them out (but sometimes gets a
little out of hand)
Message no. 12
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 21:10:45 -0400 (EDT)
At 01:32 PM 5/18/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Don't think for a minute that a corp that knows what you look like isn't
>going to send a hit-team with real bullets and real attitudes after you in a
>hurry. That'd be silly.

That all depends, of course, on just what the team did. After all, revenge
does not show up on the bottom line. After all, if corps went after every
single 'runner who extracted one of their employees, they'd go out of
business, not to mention have no one to perform extractions for them.
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 11:13:44 +1030
>Any SecGrunt who doesn't do whatever it takes to take down a terrorist (who
>is attacking the corp) with every resource he has should be fired
>immediately, if not shot for aiding the terrorist. SecGuards could care
>less if it's a fluffy terrorist with stunballs and overstim, to them the
>guy's a terrorist. And who's to say that fluffy guy doesn't have a manabolt
>waiting for the first guard to underestimate him?

Runners aren't terrorists, though... they are part of the corporate
system, and a corp that always eliminates runners with extreme force
won't be able to hire runners, either.

--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 14
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 01:15:06 -0500
>>Don't think for a minute that a corp that knows what you look like isn't
>>going to send a hit-team with real bullets and real attitudes after you in a
>>hurry. That'd be silly.

>That all depends, of course, on just what the team did. After all, revenge
>does not show up on the bottom line. After all, if corps went after every
>single 'runner who extracted one of their employees, they'd go out of
>business, not to mention have no one to perform extractions for them.

What the team did is cost them a very valuable commodity. Whether that is
an employee, money, information, time, security or whatever else the runners
managed to do is inconsequential. They now represent a security breach,
which means lowered stock and less nuyen all around, which means something
will have to be done. When that's taken care of, confidence is built in the
corp and stock raises.

If a corp didn't go after every team that performed an extraction, they'd go
broke. If they at least make an effort to nail every team, then they might
catch some and get the job done. Which is a lot better than never doing
anything, especially in the eyes of the stockholders. And those eyes are
the ones that matter.

Because team X nailed corp Y by stealing a noted physicist, it cost corp Y
two points in the market by lowering stockholder confidence in the ability
of the corp to retain it's assets. Do you realize how much money that
represents? A lot more than it would take to send a small army after team X
to exact a little vengeance.

So, realistically speaking, a corp damn well better send a team out there to
take care of anyone who has cost them anything or they could end up losing
major market share fast. Would you want to own stock in a company that
loses valuable assets on a daily basis or would you want to own stock in the
company that eradicated a terrorist threat to their facility with minimal
losses? Easy answer there...

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 15
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 01:15:03 -0500
>>Any SecGrunt who doesn't do whatever it takes to take down a terrorist (who
>>is attacking the corp) with every resource he has should be fired
>>immediately, if not shot for aiding the terrorist. SecGuards could care
>>less if it's a fluffy terrorist with stunballs and overstim, to them the
>>guy's a terrorist. And who's to say that fluffy guy doesn't have a manabolt
>>waiting for the first guard to underestimate him?

>Runners aren't terrorists, though... they are part of the corporate
>system, and a corp that always eliminates runners with extreme force
>won't be able to hire runners, either.

One man's terrorist is another man's holy warrior. What it boils down to
though is that they perform terorrist acts against corps. Would it be smart
to take a job with a corp that you just nailed a month ago? No. This is
why successful runners end up working for one faction mainly with maybe a
side job or two for others. You don't kill off a perfectly good cash cow
unless there's a bigger one waiting for you.

A corp that always eliminates attackers will have the highest number of
investors as well as a healthy stock of shadow assets of their own. Just
because they kill those who attack them doesn't mean that shadowrunners
won't work for them. It's a dog eat dog world out there and you take your
money where you can find it. I find it ludicrous that a corp that kills
runners wouldn't hire runners. Corps do both on a daily basis.

This is what I'm talking about when I describe unrealistic gaming. Morals
are a non-factor and the bottom line is top nuyen. Welcome to cyberpunk.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 16
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 11:33:13 +0100
TopCat said on 13:32/18 May 96...

> >And it has much backing, since once you have established a reputaion as
> >a runner who's NOT killing any SecGrunt on sight, the opposition tends
> >to use non-lethal reaction, too. Especially if you are known to react to
> >lethal threats with unleashed, destructive, all-consuming, and of course,
> >lethal power.
>
> Any SecGrunt who doesn't do whatever it takes to take down a terrorist (who
> is attacking the corp) with every resource he has should be fired
> immediately, if not shot for aiding the terrorist. SecGuards could care
> less if it's a fluffy terrorist with stunballs and overstim, to them the
> guy's a terrorist. And who's to say that fluffy guy doesn't have a manabolt
> waiting for the first guard to underestimate him?

The first problem for the sec guards is that they don't know whether the
mage trying to get into their corp is casting Stun Bolt or Mana Bolt
spells, if you ask me. The sec mages would be able to notice, but that
would also mean they have to expose themselves to the runners' fire to see
the enemy mage cast his spells.
For a mundane guard, it's easy to recognize Ares Cascades or SuperSquirts
if a team of runners decides to use those, but someone waving his hands
through the air and seeing your buddies fall to the ground can be just as
easily interpreted as "He's trying to kill us" as "He's just trying to
knock us out." I know which one I'd assume... always expect the worst,
things can only get better from there.

> As far as the shadows go, you'll get a rep for always leaving behind
> witnesses. Sure, you didn't kill them, which is nice to those morally
> conscious Mr. Johnsons out there who don't mind their operatives being
> identified. Which team do you go with as a Johnson? The nice guys who
> don't kill anyone, but leave witnesses or the tough guys who put all targets
> down? Both will get the job done. Both'll probably get the same pay.
> Witnesses or no witnesses, that is the question.

That's not the only concern of a Johnson. They work in mysterious ways, so
maybe they *want* to leave witnesses behind, or thy don't want the
negative publicity that a heap of dead bodies automatically attracts. It's
all a matter of what exactly the Johnson is looking for.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can feel it coming back again.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 20:56:09 +1030
>Because team X nailed corp Y by stealing a noted physicist, it cost corp Y
>two points in the market by lowering stockholder confidence in the ability
>of the corp to retain it's assets. Do you realize how much money that
>represents? A lot more than it would take to send a small army after team X
>to exact a little vengeance.

Who is going to know? Corp Z (the employers of Team X) aren't going to
advertise. Corp Y isn't going to advertise. Team X isn't going to brag
about it too much. So no-one knows. Meanwhile, while Corp Y is looking
the other way, Corp Z might be planning another move. If Corp Y is too
concerned about a revenge that won't get the noted physicist back anyway,
then they're going to be blindsided. And it still won't put the stock
back up.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 20:56:28 +1030
>This is what I'm talking about when I describe unrealistic gaming. Morals
>are a non-factor and the bottom line is top nuyen. Welcome to cyberpunk.

Which is exactly why a corp doesn't go out of it's way to fry runners...
Unpenetrable security is impossible. Even extremely hard-to-penetrate
costs a fortune, and what's the point of spending more money to protect
something than the thing is worth? And there's no beans in revenge.

Why wouldn't a corp hire a team that fragged them over the month before?
Hey, they know the team is competent, right.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 19
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 18:22:01 +0100
In message <9605190615.AC01487@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>What the team did is cost them a very valuable commodity. Whether that is
>an employee, money, information, time, security or whatever else the runners
>managed to do is inconsequential. They now represent a security breach,
>which means lowered stock and less nuyen all around, which means something
>will have to be done. When that's taken care of, confidence is built in the
>corp and stock raises.

You are, of course, assuming that this news breaks in order that the
market can react to it. What the investors don't know won't hurt the
share price :)

>If a corp didn't go after every team that performed an extraction, they'd go
>broke. If they at least make an effort to nail every team, then they might
>catch some and get the job done. Which is a lot better than never doing
>anything, especially in the eyes of the stockholders. And those eyes are
>the ones that matter.

There is the corollary, as it tends to game out. "This runner stole our
molecular biologist. Then you sent an eight-man team after him, net
worth of about three million including training and cyber, and none of
them came back. Then you spend another two million in intelligence
gathering and shadow teams, with no reported result. And you're saying
you want *another* budgetary extension to continue the pursuit?"

Now, if they continue the hunt, this runner is still going to go down...
eventually. But work out how much it tends to cost a corporation per
runner. Do you get the scientist back? Do you get any return at all?
You're throwing good money after bad.

On the other hand... this guy broke *your* security. You have some idea
who he is. You'll call it quits... if he returns the favour for you,
against your competitors, for a lower price than he'd usually accept.

>Because team X nailed corp Y by stealing a noted physicist, it cost corp Y
>two points in the market by lowering stockholder confidence in the ability
>of the corp to retain it's assets. Do you realize how much money that
>represents? A lot more than it would take to send a small army after team X
>to exact a little vengeance.

Depends, again. There are only so many key assets whose loss would mean
much to investors. And see my other post: a neat, precise extraction
with no collateral damage can be covered up. No news = no market
reaction. Runners with nothing to lose tend to use louder, less
discriminating methods, and there's much less chance of hiding that.

>So, realistically speaking, a corp damn well better send a team out there to
>take care of anyone who has cost them anything or they could end up losing
>major market share fast. Would you want to own stock in a company that
>loses valuable assets on a daily basis or would you want to own stock in the
>company that eradicated a terrorist threat to their facility with minimal
>losses? Easy answer there...

Depends. There's the middle ground, too: slide the scale of response on
(a) the cost to the company and (b) the noise and damage done. It gives
runners hitting you an incentive to minimise collateral damage and keep
the noise down.

And if you keep losing those teams... It's an effect we've had in our
game. Lynch doesn't worry much about being assassinated: because his rep
is such that many won't take the job; those that will do it for a low
price are inexperienced and can be avoided or killed; and if he *really*
annoys someone, the guy they'll hire and send he couldn't get away from
anyway. So, why worry? You can't *stop* people coming after you: but you
can raise the price. That has consequences of its own, of course... the
team you hire for *that* price will be a real problem...

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 12:01:36 +0100
In message <9605190615.AB01487@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>One man's terrorist is another man's holy warrior. What it boils down to
>though is that they perform terorrist acts against corps. Would it be smart
>to take a job with a corp that you just nailed a month ago? No. This is
>why successful runners end up working for one faction mainly with maybe a
>side job or two for others. You don't kill off a perfectly good cash cow
>unless there's a bigger one waiting for you.

This, of course, loses the "deniable" aspect of shadowrunners. Why not
just go formally on the payroll and wear a uniform? The idea is that
there are no traceable links between the corporation and the runner: if
linking the corp to the op was acceptable, the corporation would use its
own assets rather than hiring some dubious thugs off the street.

>A corp that always eliminates attackers will have the highest number of
>investors as well as a healthy stock of shadow assets of their own. Just
>because they kill those who attack them doesn't mean that shadowrunners
>won't work for them. It's a dog eat dog world out there and you take your
>money where you can find it. I find it ludicrous that a corp that kills
>runners wouldn't hire runners. Corps do both on a daily basis.

There is a side issue here. Let's say Lynch is planning a hit. Now, he
has a choice of going in with heavy weapons, explosives, and gas -
killing everyone in the building, removing the target, then destroying
the building; or going in low-profile and quiet, doing minimum
collateral damage and inflicting minimum casualties.

If the corporation will go all-out to kill you either way, guess which
is safer and leaves less evidence and fewer witnesses?

On the other hand, for a relatively minor run, the collateral cost of a
dozen or so guards, fifty or sixty employees, the computer facility,
*all* the work-in-progress in that building, the two helicopters shot
down as they came to bring backup (plus the backup itself), the building
itself... this adds up to *big* money.

The corporation might find it worthwhile to avoid that sort of carnage
by encouraging a quiet quid pro quo: the level of pursuit scales to (a)
the importance of your target, and (b) the collateral damage inflicted.

>This is what I'm talking about when I describe unrealistic gaming. Morals
>are a non-factor and the bottom line is top nuyen. Welcome to cyberpunk.

Exactly: see above for why "bottom line" does not necessarily mean "hunt
forever". It's the age-old problem that once you're sentenced to death,
what else matters? Killing every corporate guard, trashing every asset,
doing the maximum damage to the enemy, becomes a sensible means of
prolonging your life. Avoiding that might make economic sense.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 21
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 18:05:57 -0500
>>Because team X nailed corp Y by stealing a noted physicist, it cost corp Y
>>two points in the market by lowering stockholder confidence in the ability
>>of the corp to retain it's assets. Do you realize how much money that
>>represents? A lot more than it would take to send a small army after team X
>>to exact a little vengeance.

>Who is going to know? Corp Z (the employers of Team X) aren't going to
>advertise. Corp Y isn't going to advertise. Team X isn't going to brag
>about it too much. So no-one knows. Meanwhile, while Corp Y is looking
>the other way, Corp Z might be planning another move. If Corp Y is too
>concerned about a revenge that won't get the noted physicist back anyway,
>then they're going to be blindsided. And it still won't put the stock
>back up.

If corp Y is so small that sending out a small group after a single runner
team will open them up from all other directions, then corp Z will certainly
be able to capitalize. Corps aren't tiny little mom & pop stores just off
the freeway, they're multinational organizations with as much manpower as
some countries. Some even are countries. They also control a huge percent
of the world's economy. So I think they can afford to nail down a
shadowrunner team without finding themselves open in any way.

And nobody has to brag about anything. Word will get out that a physicist
disappeared from corp Y and ended up in corp Z. Corp Y employees will be
awfully bitter about it, while corp Z employees might be suspicious of how
this happened. The shadows are built on information and someone somewhere
will know what the runners did and they'll try to dump off the info for what
the market will pay for it. All in all, the information may not come out
immediately, but it will come out.

Why wouldn't it build the stock of a corporation to show that they won't
take attacks on their assets lying down? That's worth at least the cost of
the shareholders finding out that they did get attacked. Confidence is the
most important thing in the stock market, if you don't build it, you get
eaten up. If you do build it and solidify your stances,you will be rewarded
by a higher market share.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 22
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 18:06:03 -0500
>>This is what I'm talking about when I describe unrealistic gaming. Morals
>>are a non-factor and the bottom line is top nuyen. Welcome to cyberpunk.

>Which is exactly why a corp doesn't go out of it's way to fry runners...
>Unpenetrable security is impossible. Even extremely hard-to-penetrate
>costs a fortune, and what's the point of spending more money to protect
>something than the thing is worth? And there's no beans in revenge.

Impressive security measures are much cheaper than you think. Especially to
a megacorp which can throw off a few million without any real care. Plus,
you can never have enough security in the eyes of the shareholders.
Skimping there could cost you without the defenses ever having been tried.

>Why wouldn't a corp hire a team that fragged them over the month before?
>Hey, they know the team is competent, right.

If I ran a corp and I knew of a team that nailed my corp, I'd hire them, set
them up, and kill them. Since it is 2057 and not 1057, I couldn't put their
heads on poles outside the office complex, but I could get some nice
pictures taken and set up a story for the papers. The more of those stories
that show up, the less likely subsequent attacks will be on the corp.
Ruling through fear is much easier than ruling through trust and far less
likely to hurt you in the end.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 23
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 18:06:06 -0500
At 12:01 PM 5/19/96 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>This, of course, loses the "deniable" aspect of shadowrunners. Why not
>just go formally on the payroll and wear a uniform? The idea is that
>there are no traceable links between the corporation and the runner: if
>linking the corp to the op was acceptable, the corporation would use its
>own assets rather than hiring some dubious thugs off the street.

Because you can't be formally on the payroll and attack another corp without
starting a nasty war in a very public manner. You can, however, retain a
group of shadowrunners to do work for you when needed and they can't be
traced back to you, anyway.

>>A corp that always eliminates attackers will have the highest number of
>>investors as well as a healthy stock of shadow assets of their own. Just
>>because they kill those who attack them doesn't mean that shadowrunners
>>won't work for them. It's a dog eat dog world out there and you take your
>>money where you can find it. I find it ludicrous that a corp that kills
>>runners wouldn't hire runners. Corps do both on a daily basis.

>There is a side issue here. Let's say Lynch is planning a hit. Now, he
>has a choice of going in with heavy weapons, explosives, and gas -
>killing everyone in the building, removing the target, then destroying
>the building; or going in low-profile and quiet, doing minimum
>collateral damage and inflicting minimum casualties.

You'e missed the point of my statement. I was speaking in regards to people
using non-lethal means to accomplish a job as opposed to lethal means.
Which translates to a lot of knocked out personnel who did see you and your
team and will be able to describe them to their superiors or a lot of bodies
that can't say a thing about you. I'm not talking about stealth missions
vs. mad bombings. Even on the stealthiest of entries, you'll end up meeting
someone somewhere sometime. If you choose to knock them out, then they'll
know things about you. If you kill them, "dead men tell no tales".

>The corporation might find it worthwhile to avoid that sort of carnage
>by encouraging a quiet quid pro quo: the level of pursuit scales to (a)
>the importance of your target, and (b) the collateral damage inflicted.

Of course it does. But there's also (c) current situations. If the corp
feels like it needs a confidence booster and knows of a shadowrun team that
managed to get some useless info from them, they'd probably do well to nail
that team hard and fast. Why? Because it shows that even the slightest of
attacks is met with brute force. Shareholders will be happy, stock will
rise, and the corp draws the bottom line a little higher. If the corp
doesn't need that confidence booster, then they will probably let them slide.

If the info was worth anything, wouldn't you want to know who got it? I
know I would. How do you find out? Trace the runners, bag as many as
possible and try out the latest techniques of security advisor Torquemada.
Then you can choose to kill them or let them live with the reps of runners
who gave out their Johnson. Either way, they're out of your hair.

>>This is what I'm talking about when I describe unrealistic gaming. Morals
>>are a non-factor and the bottom line is top nuyen. Welcome to cyberpunk.

>Exactly: see above for why "bottom line" does not necessarily mean
"hunt
>forever".

No, but it does mean hunt. The runners may not even know that they are
being hunted or even by who. It could be that other shadowrunner team
across the bar. Or that gang of trolls hanging out at the corner. Or it
could be your own fixer setting you up for a fall. All of those are
deniable assets. The public probbaly won't even know those runners died,
but the shadows will know that they did, why they did, and who did it.


-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 24
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 18:06:10 -0500
>>What the team did is cost them a very valuable commodity. Whether that is
>>an employee, money, information, time, security or whatever else the runners
>>managed to do is inconsequential. They now represent a security breach,
>>which means lowered stock and less nuyen all around, which means something
>>will have to be done. When that's taken care of, confidence is built in the
>>corp and stock raises.

>You are, of course, assuming that this news breaks in order that the
>market can react to it. What the investors don't know won't hurt the
>share price :)

True, but news like that will be known by someone, who knows someone else,
who knows these people, who tell their friends at a party that corp Y just
lost out, who tell their friends that maybe corp Z would be the better buy.
It'll go through the shadows the same way. It may not happen immediately,
but sooner or later, the news will come out.

>>If a corp didn't go after every team that performed an extraction, they'd go
>>broke. If they at least make an effort to nail every team, then they might
>>catch some and get the job done. Which is a lot better than never doing
>>anything, especially in the eyes of the stockholders. And those eyes are
>>the ones that matter.

>There is the corollary, as it tends to game out. "This runner stole our
>molecular biologist. Then you sent an eight-man team after him, net
>worth of about three million including training and cyber, and none of
>them came back. Then you spend another two million in intelligence
>gathering and shadow teams, with no reported result. And you're saying
>you want *another* budgetary extension to continue the pursuit?"

They sent the wrong team for the job then. You could dump nuyen directly
into shadowrunners and have that team wiped out before they knew what hit
them. Maybe even pay them off in your own product (which you make for 5% of
what the market bears). Cost is minimal, shadow-assets are deniable, and
the shareholders know that it got taken care of, and quietly.

Corps will also gauge the abilities of the team based on the extraction.
With the way secsystems are now, you have to be damned good to get in and
out with minimal casualties and the biologist. So the corp will put out a
team that is better than damned good to do the job. They might not do it
immediately, but they might do it a week from now or later.

>Now, if they continue the hunt, this runner is still going to go down...
>eventually. But work out how much it tends to cost a corporation per
>runner. Do you get the scientist back? Do you get any return at all?
>You're throwing good money after bad.

It might be cheap, it might be expensive. It all depends on when the corp
does what it does and what the corp does it with. Three guys with sniper
rifles can take out a team in less than 10 seconds and may never be noticed
by anyone. Cheap. Ten cyberzombies loaded to the gills with guns blazing
will take out the runners, but there'll be a hefty price. Corps aren't
stupid and won't throw away anything. They will min/max a situation and
come out with the best solution for the price.

>On the other hand... this guy broke *your* security. You have some idea
>who he is. You'll call it quits... if he returns the favour for you,
>against your competitors, for a lower price than he'd usually accept.

TopCat's first story had that in it. That is a particular favorite of mine.

>And if you keep losing those teams... It's an effect we've had in our
>game. Lynch doesn't worry much about being assassinated: because his rep
>is such that many won't take the job; those that will do it for a low
>price are inexperienced and can be avoided or killed; and if he *really*
>annoys someone, the guy they'll hire and send he couldn't get away from
>anyway. So, why worry? You can't *stop* people coming after you: but you
>can raise the price. That has consequences of its own, of course... the
>team you hire for *that* price will be a real problem...

;)

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 25
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 16:05:21 -0700 (PDT)
> > Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
> > there kill casually?

<snip>
> We're actually proud not to have left a trail of bodies where ever we go.


Yay!


---Tom---
Message no. 26
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 19:23:00 -0400 (EDT)
At 06:06 PM 5/19/96 -0500, you wrote:

>If I ran a corp and I knew of a team that nailed my corp, I'd hire them, set
>them up, and kill them. Since it is 2057 and not 1057, I couldn't put their
>heads on poles outside the office complex, but I could get some nice
>pictures taken and set up a story for the papers. The more of those stories
>that show up, the less likely subsequent attacks will be on the corp.
>Ruling through fear is much easier than ruling through trust and far less
>likely to hurt you in the end.

I don't think so, Bob.

Your corporation won't be able to hire runners because you got a rep in the
streets for screwing them over. If you can't hire runners to do your dirty
work, you're fucked, especially if you waste money "getting even" with every
runner on the street that may have crossed your path.
Message no. 27
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 22:54:57 -0700
TopCat wrote:
> <snip the why not>
<snip TC's why>

If the big bad corp can positively finger the team that fragged 'em ....
well, the team is screwed anyway. A successful run is one where the
target is not able to ID perpetrators.
Message no. 28
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 17:21:17 +1030
>Of course it does. But there's also (c) current situations. If the corp
>feels like it needs a confidence booster and knows of a shadowrun team that
>managed to get some useless info from them, they'd probably do well to nail
>that team hard and fast. Why? Because it shows that even the slightest of
>attacks is met with brute force. Shareholders will be happy, stock will
>rise, and the corp draws the bottom line a little higher. If the corp
>doesn't need that confidence booster, then they will probably let them slide.

And the shareholders will know that the corp struck out at pawns, rather
than hitting the people who REALLY caused the trouble. What that would
tell me is that the corp is getting scared, is striking out at irrelevant
targets, AND can't defend itself.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 29
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 17:21:23 +1030
>If corp Y is so small that sending out a small group after a single runner
>team will open them up from all other directions, then corp Z will certainly
>be able to capitalize. Corps aren't tiny little mom & pop stores just off
>the freeway, they're multinational organizations with as much manpower as
>some countries. Some even are countries. They also control a huge percent
>of the world's economy. So I think they can afford to nail down a
>shadowrunner team without finding themselves open in any way.

Trying to hunt down a shadowrunning team is a costly endeavour. You're
talking some serious assets, both in the investigative side and the final
"elimination" phase. Now, if you go about doing this for EVERY hit
against you (and you said this is happening every day), then I don't care
if you are Ares Macrotechnology: you are consuming a hell of a lot of
funds, and you ARE going to have to cut corners elsewhere.

When you get right down to it, what is it worth? The other corp payed out
maybe 100K Y for the run, maybe more. Call it an operating budget of 250K
Y. The target in question was worth probably no more than about 3,4
million (gee, as if), and at THAT, it's probably only worth that much for
your corp and the other corp. Gee... ONE corp strike team, with magical
support, can cost that much. And you STILL won't get your asset back,
probably.

Sure, Ares might put several billion into security. However, they've got
THOUSANDS, maybe millions, of sites to protect. It's not worth the
expenditure.

And besides, there just aren't all that many top-level running teams. If
you eliminate a few, then the others aren't going to run against you, but
they won't run for you either. And if you start doing it, then your
competitors will too, and soon there won't be any running teams left.
Sounds good so far? But the corps DO want running teams out there. If
they didn't, they wouldn't hire them.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 30
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 17:21:40 +1030
>>Why wouldn't a corp hire a team that fragged them over the month before?
>>Hey, they know the team is competent, right.
>
>If I ran a corp and I knew of a team that nailed my corp, I'd hire them, set
>them up, and kill them. Since it is 2057 and not 1057, I couldn't put their
>heads on poles outside the office complex, but I could get some nice
>pictures taken and set up a story for the papers. The more of those stories
>that show up, the less likely subsequent attacks will be on the corp.
>Ruling through fear is much easier than ruling through trust and far less
>likely to hurt you in the end.

What this means is that the next time one of your competitors wants
something, instead of sending in some plausibly deniable and expendible
assets, they'll send in enough firepower to A) Get what they want, and B)
Make sure no-one can pin it to them. THAT gets expensive faster than
letting the runners slide.

Aztechnology tries this stuff, BTW... it doesn't work all that well.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 31
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:49:46 +0100
At 0:06 Uhr 20.5.1996, TopCat wrote:
>Because you can't be formally on the payroll and attack another corp without
>starting a nasty war in a very public manner. You can, however, retain a
>group of shadowrunners to do work for you when needed and they can't be
>traced back to you, anyway.
Following your own argumentation, you can't. They'll be on another corps
payroll. (I disagree with the whole "Shadowrunners will bind themselves
to one corp" thingy, but with your argument, this will happen)

>You'e missed the point of my statement. I was speaking in regards to people
>using non-lethal means to accomplish a job as opposed to lethal means.
>Which translates to a lot of knocked out personnel who did see you and your
>team and will be able to describe them to their superiors or a lot of bodies
>that can't say a thing about you. I'm not talking about stealth missions
>vs. mad bombings. Even on the stealthiest of entries, you'll end up meeting
>someone somewhere sometime. If you choose to knock them out, then they'll
>know things about you. If you kill them, "dead men tell no tales".
Yeah, sure. People knocked out can always describe you. Things like
"...and the third guy had 'Topcat' on his nameplate, was about 1.89 m tall,
and a slight [insert place here] accent. His business card says he's
reachable at...". While going around shooting people will just tell
the corp what kind of weapon you are carring (with nonlethal weapons the
same, OK) and you are willing to inflict whatever damage you can.

>Of course it does. But there's also (c) current situations. If the corp
>feels like it needs a confidence booster and knows of a shadowrun team that
>managed to get some useless info from them, they'd probably do well to nail
>that team hard and fast. Why? Because it shows that even the slightest of
>attacks is met with brute force. Shareholders will be happy, stock will
>rise, and the corp draws the bottom line a little higher. If the corp
>doesn't need that confidence booster, then they will probably let them slide.
Yo, now THAT convinces me. Confidence. See what we did, we sent out a
team (which cost us just about [insert whatever you like]) and just TRASHED
four civilians, err, Shadowrunners, err, terrorists. See how strong we are?
They resisted being shot, that proves they are criminals. Do you like me
now? *sigh*

>If the info was worth anything, wouldn't you want to know who got it? I
>know I would. How do you find out? Trace the runners, bag as many as
>possible and try out the latest techniques of security advisor Torquemada.
>Then you can choose to kill them or let them live with the reps of runners
>who gave out their Johnson. Either way, they're out of your hair.
...and building up such a rep will ensure no runner will work for
you when you need 'em. Maybe some will even lower their prices AGAINST
you, since runners are people. Corps are not.

>No, but it does mean hunt. The runners may not even know that they are
>being hunted or even by who. It could be that other shadowrunner team
>across the bar. Or that gang of trolls hanging out at the corner. Or it
>could be your own fixer setting you up for a fall. All of those are
>deniable assets. The public probbaly won't even know those runners died,
>but the shadows will know that they did, why they did, and who did it.
...but you said "thrust in confidence" and "shareholder know", didn't
you?
In this same mail? Hello? Read what you write, will you?

Sascha
Message no. 32
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:48:23 +0100
At 0:06 Uhr 20.5.1996, TopCat wrote:
>Cost is minimal, shadow-assets are deniable, and
>the shareholders know that it got taken care of, and quietly.
If it's done quietly, how should the shareholders know?
And if announced: Why use deniable assets, ie. Shadowrunners?
No, you still do not convince me...

>Corps aren't
>stupid and won't throw away anything. They will min/max a situation and
>come out with the best solution for the price.
Which still doesn't explain why they should send a team after the runners.
They wont get back their lost goodies. They wont frighten away other
runners. They will have to pay for the revenge. It would sure be more
productive to hire Runner themselves and get back the info/personel
to regain their losses. From whoever has it then.

Sascha
Message no. 33
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 10:50:05 +0100
At 0:06 Uhr 20.5.1996, TopCat wrote:
>If I ran a corp and I knew of a team that nailed my corp, [...]
That's the first problem: Corps are no persons. Maybe people IN a corp
have nasty feelings toward a Runnerteam, but the corp as whole would
look after the bottom line, which means: Don't throw money out if you
can't regain it. And to counter your favourite answer to the bottom
line statement: What would be more sensible: To gain 0.000001 pts
increase in stockmarket because "we wasted 4 people iwth our whole
corp" or risking massive damage to your goods because every runnerteam
will try not to be recognized and waste anything around 'em to
obscure their trails?

>I'd hire them, set
>them up, and kill them.
(Some) Persons do that. Gives you that fuzzy feeling in the ... wherever.
But it does not pay out. So better use that team to gain something
("Hey, we know you did [whatever] to us, so what if you give us a 10%
bonus when taking this run?") then spend money and still have to find at
least one new team.

>Ruling through fear is much easier than ruling through trust and far less
>likely to hurt you in the end.
...and much more expensive, but you seem to think corps grow through losses,
you may have your point. Somewhere. Maybe.
<font size=-3>Maybe not.</font>
Sascha
Message no. 34
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:57:11 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes

[using this as a general thread reply as well as specifics]

> At 0:06 Uhr 20.5.1996, TopCat wrote:
> >If I ran a corp and I knew of a team that nailed my corp, [...]
> That's the first problem: Corps are no persons. Maybe people IN a corp
> have nasty feelings toward a Runnerteam,
The time you are really in trouble is if you annoy a specific person.
If your run cost the sec manager a promotion or kills the VP's
daughter (some stray attack blew up the nursery for instnace) you can
be in big time trouble, though the person using corp assets for
personal vendettas is really in drek if his/her boss finds out.

> but the corp as whole would
> look after the bottom line, which means: Don't throw money out if you
> can't regain it.
It is probably well worth pursing the team off site directly if you
can foll the sounds of heavy gunfire, while they still have what they
stole (ie before they hand it over) you can fix the leak/get your
employee back etc, that you try will look good. Once the team has got
away from you however it becomes a different tale. If the team is
professional, hits different folks and does not cause unessecary
damage it is basically not worth chasing them, you are better trying
to hire them as competent when you need some deniable assets.
If a team hits you several times though and keeps over doind it
(throwing grenades into places just because it would go bang etc)
'revenge' becomes weel worth while, not because of what they did but
to 'nail them before it happens again!', and hope the next team hired
against you is more discrete.

> And to counter your favourite answer to the bottom
> line statement: What would be more sensible: To gain 0.000001 pts
> increase in stockmarket because "we wasted 4 people iwth our whole
> corp" or risking massive damage to your goods because every runnerteam
> will try not to be recognized and waste anything around 'em to
> obscure their trails?
>
Yeah. The SR literature shows various methods, the runners that try
to avoid unrequired mess (ie you sneak and use stun as long as you
can, after all it helps the rep and if the guy never saw you because
he was unconcious first it does no harm) will get some benefit in a
rep as professional. Runners that won't use leathal force when needed
(ie if the corp catches them and pulls out the big guns, also it can
be necessary to kill any guards that you didn't do in cleanly (ie
before they saw you, scared scientist are maybe best left to describe
you as the chances of the details beyond 'oh shit he had a gun' being
very accurate are low and may help confusion))

> >I'd hire them, set
> >them up, and kill them.
Effective but the chance of a backfire if anyone knows you did it is
dangerous.

> (Some) Persons do that. Gives you that fuzzy feeling in the ... wherever.
> But it does not pay out. So better use that team to gain something
> ("Hey, we know you did [whatever] to us, so what if you give us a 10%
> bonus when taking this run?") then spend money and still have to find at
> least one new team.
>
> >Ruling through fear is much easier than ruling through trust and far less
> >likely to hurt you in the end.
Assuming you get away with it, if the result is a backfire it could
get very costly. As long as you have the upper hand its fine. Trust
has the problem that you could well lose something all the time but
as long as you are carefull (ie never forget the intelligence
department) it is less likely to go disasterously wrong though it
will probably cause more minor problems more regularly.

An assortment

Mark
Message no. 35
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 08:47:29 -0500
>>Any SecGrunt who doesn't do whatever it takes to take down a terrorist (who
>>is attacking the corp) with every resource he has should be fired
>>immediately, if not shot for aiding the terrorist. SecGuards could care
>>less if it's a fluffy terrorist with stunballs and overstim, to them the
>>guy's a terrorist. And who's to say that fluffy guy doesn't have a manabolt
>>waiting for the first guard to underestimate him?
>
>Runners aren't terrorists, though... they are part of the corporate
>system, and a corp that always eliminates runners with extreme force
>won't be able to hire runners, either.
>
"Don't kill him. Let him get away. We made need to hire him later."???? I
can't see this situation coming up.

Someone breaks into your corp, they're toast. If you can knock them out and
catch them, that is much better, but if you can't, they can't be allowed to
steal your information/plans/employee because it's all an asset. If the
competition gets it, they can make money from it with little to no cost to
themselves, which will hurt you. Corps are going to pull out all the stops
to try and keep a runner from getting their goods. Otherwise, they'll end
up with no good employees, and no product that the comptetion can't
replicate. Even if you destroy the runner and whatever they have of yours,
you might not have it, but neither does anyone else.
Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil Midnight
Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.
Message no. 36
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 09:10:59 -0500
>In message <9605190615.AC01487@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
><topcat@******.net> writes
>>What the team did is cost them a very valuable commodity. Whether that is
>>an employee, money, information, time, security or whatever else the runners
>>managed to do is inconsequential. They now represent a security breach,
>>which means lowered stock and less nuyen all around, which means something
>>will have to be done. When that's taken care of, confidence is built in the
>>corp and stock raises.
>
>You are, of course, assuming that this news breaks in order that the
>market can react to it. What the investors don't know won't hurt the
>share price :)

Except big investors (the ones that count at least) have a tendency to check
up on pet projects that the company is working on to see how things are
going. So the Big Investor comes by to see how things are doing. They ask
where the scientist working on this neat project he'd heard about at the
last stockholder meeting was, cause he was supposed to be a genius, and was
going making major breakthroughs. We'll, PR guy one says that he, um, left,
sir. "What do you mean, 'left'?" "He was the target of an extraction, but
we're working on getting a new guy to fill his spot. The project won't be
effected." The investors face goes pale, and he promptly calls his broker
and drops a million shares. Other people see someone selling a million
shares and say "hey, that person must know something about the stock going
down. I'm going to sell too." And over time, the stock starts to plummet.
Maybe fast, maybe not to fast, most likely only a point or three. But that
still means a lot of money. The stock market doesn't need hard facts, they
just need rumors.

(If anyone is wondering about the accuracy of a situation like this, when
the FCC froze the 900 MHz band range on pager systems, the stock of the
company I work for fell 4 in a day. However, this was extreme because of
how wide spread the knowledge was, and how important the band range is.
Another example, one of the higher up investors dropped a couple hundred
thousand shares of stock one day (normal trade volume for 1 day is about
400,000 shares) other investors saw this and decided he knew something they
didn't, and sold as well. In reality, the guy just sold because he wanted
to make some fast money before the stock had a chance to drop. In less than
a week, the stock price dropped from 57pts. to the mid 20's. The only
useful thing in all of the Corp Handbook is how stock will effect corps.
Unfortunately, it's to boring to read)

Anyway, never underestimate shareholders. They're fidgety little bastards.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil Midnight
Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.
Message no. 37
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 20:46:05 -0500 (CDT)
On Fri, 17 May 1996, Peter David Boddy wrote:

> Tom Pendergrast writes:
> >
> >
> > A couple of weeks ago, (in the middle of the Sammie & mage
> > discussion), I said I was going to bring something up I had been thinking
> > about for a while. Well, here it is...
> >
> > Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
> > there kill casually? I mean, think about it, people generally don't go
> > around offing people... usually there is some extreme emotion involved.
> > In SRII, it seems like alot of chars just say "He's there, so I'll kill
> > him." Most of my chars are relatively opposed to killing... in champions
> > terms, my SRII chars have 5-15 pt CAKs (codes against killing). Are
> > there other characters out there who are like this, or am I the only one?
> >
>
> My present group doesn't do wetwork, we don't kill casually, we have
> killed cyborgs, and some guys who were wacked out on combat drugs. We
> killed them because we couldn't knock them down, knock them out, or other
> wise incapacitate them. The gaurd doing his job usually doesn't know
> we're there, if he does, he usually goes 'nite-nite', and wakes up with a
> slight headache. (via stunbolt, sleep spell, or a good old fashioned thump
> to the back of the head)
>
> We're actually proud not to have left a trail of bodies where ever we go.


I'd have to say that our group represents the other side of the coin... I
suppose to say it's not our _whole_ group, mostly just our street
samurais. No, excuse me, just one of our street samurais. He stocks up
on plastic explosives and demolotions skills. We have a van, can't
remember what kind off the top of my head, known affectionately as the
Mystery Machine... where "special guests" are dragged off by this said
Samurai and tortured in the back of the van to gain information. most
people in our game don't know the person's character by name, but if you
mention the guy who pops peoples testicles because he can, they _know_
who you're talking about... The guy RL is kinda whacked in the head, I
think... kinda scares me seomtimes... He is definitely what you'd term a
"low profile" character...



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 38
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:50:10 +0100
In message <9605192306.AC28717@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>At 12:01 PM 5/19/96 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>>This, of course, loses the "deniable" aspect of shadowrunners. Why not
>>just go formally on the payroll and wear a uniform? The idea is that
>>there are no traceable links between the corporation and the runner: if
>>linking the corp to the op was acceptable, the corporation would use its
>>own assets rather than hiring some dubious thugs off the street.
>
>Because you can't be formally on the payroll and attack another corp without
>starting a nasty war in a very public manner. You can, however, retain a
>group of shadowrunners to do work for you when needed and they can't be
>traced back to you, anyway.

You have the same team working for you over and over and nobody's going
to notice? :)

>>There is a side issue here. Let's say Lynch is planning a hit. Now, he
>>has a choice of going in with heavy weapons, explosives, and gas -
>>killing everyone in the building, removing the target, then destroying
>>the building; or going in low-profile and quiet, doing minimum
>>collateral damage and inflicting minimum casualties.
>
>You'e missed the point of my statement. I was speaking in regards to people
>using non-lethal means to accomplish a job as opposed to lethal means.
>Which translates to a lot of knocked out personnel who did see you and your
>team and will be able to describe them to their superiors or a lot of bodies
>that can't say a thing about you. I'm not talking about stealth missions
>vs. mad bombings. Even on the stealthiest of entries, you'll end up meeting
>someone somewhere sometime. If you choose to knock them out, then they'll
>know things about you. If you kill them, "dead men tell no tales".

"Uh, the guy, he was, about six feet tall, and he had a gun, and he said
if I moved he'd kill me, I never really saw his face, I was really
scared..."

And it still comes back to whether you want runners to execute everyone
they meet, or use less destructive and lethal methods.

>Of course it does. But there's also (c) current situations. If the corp
>feels like it needs a confidence booster and knows of a shadowrun team that
>managed to get some useless info from them, they'd probably do well to nail
>that team hard and fast. Why? Because it shows that even the slightest of
>attacks is met with brute force. Shareholders will be happy, stock will
>rise, and the corp draws the bottom line a little higher. If the corp
>doesn't need that confidence booster, then they will probably let them slide.

Sounds more like killing ants with sledgehammers. And you better be sure
you got the right person, and that your assassins don't get caught.

Also, how are you putting this about? "Our strike team killed six
shadowrunners last night who had..."
"You murdered six civilians in UCAS jurisdiction?"
"No, we killed six fugitives-"
"You unlawfully executed six people without trial?"

If you don't publicise, your investors don't find out and you might as
well not have bothered. If you do, you have some very tricky explaining
to do. Extraterritoriality cuts both ways.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 39
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:42:54 +0100
In message <9605192306.AB28717@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>Impressive security measures are much cheaper than you think. Especially to
>a megacorp which can throw off a few million without any real care. Plus,
>you can never have enough security in the eyes of the shareholders.
>Skimping there could cost you without the defenses ever having been tried.

You *can* have too much security, just as you can have too much
management... it's an overhead that doesn't bring in a return.
Shareholders might start muttering about all that money sunk for no
tangible gain...

>If I ran a corp and I knew of a team that nailed my corp, I'd hire them, set
>them up, and kill them. Since it is 2057 and not 1057, I couldn't put their
>heads on poles outside the office complex, but I could get some nice
>pictures taken and set up a story for the papers. The more of those stories
>that show up, the less likely subsequent attacks will be on the corp.

It also means nobody will work for you.

Your competitors can hire runners and you can't. This is not a good
thing: they now have an advantage in the end.

>Ruling through fear is much easier than ruling through trust and far less
>likely to hurt you in the end.

That's questionable. A ruthless kill-em-all corporation is going to have
a lot of incidental losses: it becomes a matter of survival to damage it
as much as possible.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 40
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:03:47 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 20 May 1996, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> In message <9605192306.AC28717@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
> <topcat@******.net> writes
> >At 12:01 PM 5/19/96 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:
> >>This, of course, loses the "deniable" aspect of shadowrunners. Why
not
> >>just go formally on the payroll and wear a uniform? The idea is that
> >>there are no traceable links between the corporation and the runner: if
> >>linking the corp to the op was acceptable, the corporation would use its
> >>own assets rather than hiring some dubious thugs off the street.
> >
> >Because you can't be formally on the payroll and attack another corp without
> >starting a nasty war in a very public manner. You can, however, retain a
> >group of shadowrunners to do work for you when needed and they can't be
> >traced back to you, anyway.
>
> You have the same team working for you over and over and nobody's going
> to notice? :)

Okay, my first point has got to be why do your players know who they're
running for? The whole point of having Johnsons around is that you DON'T
know you're running for x Corp. only that you've got to go into y corp.
and extract Prof. Reinstein, delivering him to Johnson. Your not on a
Corp. payroll youre working a cash deal with a Mr. Johnson, no Corp.
involved.

>
> >>There is a side issue here. Let's say Lynch is planning a hit. Now, he
> >>has a choice of going in with heavy weapons, explosives, and gas -
> >>killing everyone in the building, removing the target, then destroying
> >>the building; or going in low-profile and quiet, doing minimum
> >>collateral damage and inflicting minimum casualties.
> >
> >You'e missed the point of my statement. I was speaking in regards to people
> >using non-lethal means to accomplish a job as opposed to lethal means.
> >Which translates to a lot of knocked out personnel who did see you and your
> >team and will be able to describe them to their superiors or a lot of bodies
> >that can't say a thing about you. I'm not talking about stealth missions
> >vs. mad bombings. Even on the stealthiest of entries, you'll end up meeting
> >someone somewhere sometime. If you choose to knock them out, then they'll
> >know things about you. If you kill them, "dead men tell no tales".
>
> "Uh, the guy, he was, about six feet tall, and he had a gun, and he said
> if I moved he'd kill me, I never really saw his face, I was really
> scared..."
>
Yeah, that sounds like a trained Corp.sec. guard to me, c'mon! Even today
the primary job for a security guard is to get descriptions of perps, can
you see a bank dick keeping his job long if he reacted like that every
time he had a gun stuck in his face? I didn't think so.
Then of course there's the small matter of the security cameras, but
we'll save that for another day.


> And it still comes back to whether you want runners to execute everyone
> they meet, or use less destructive and lethal methods.
>
> >Of course it does. But there's also (c) current situations. If the corp
> >feels like it needs a confidence booster and knows of a shadowrun team that
> >managed to get some useless info from them, they'd probably do well to nail
> >that team hard and fast. Why? Because it shows that even the slightest of
> >attacks is met with brute force. Shareholders will be happy, stock will
> >rise, and the corp draws the bottom line a little higher. If the corp
> >doesn't need that confidence booster, then they will probably let them slide.
>
> Sounds more like killing ants with sledgehammers. And you better be sure
> you got the right person, and that your assassins don't get caught.
>
> Also, how are you putting this about? "Our strike team killed six
> shadowrunners last night who had..."
> "You murdered six civilians in UCAS jurisdiction?"
> "No, we killed six fugitives-"
> "You unlawfully executed six people without trial?"
>
Unlawfully? Unlawfully??unlawfully??!? Thats the whole point of extra
teritoriality, isn't it? The corps are now a law unto themselves! They
can do just about anything they like and no-one can do anything about it.
Thats why Shadow runners exist.:-D

Cheers,
The ROO-MAN.
via his wife.
Message no. 41
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:19:00 -0500
>Unlawfully? Unlawfully??unlawfully??!? Thats the whole point of extra
>teritoriality, isn't it? The corps are now a law unto themselves! They
>can do just about anything they like and no-one can do anything about it.
>Thats why Shadow runners exist.:-D
>
>Cheers,
>The ROO-MAN.
>via his wife.
>
They can only do whatever they want within the own bounds of their grounds.
If they go out on Seattle streets and kill people, they're acting
unlawfully. Corps don't have diplomatic immunity.

A corp only has extraterritoriality if they
a). Are multinational
b). Have defined borders

and if they meet all that, they still have to obey the laws of their own
country (the one where their corp HQ is). That means that in Seattle, Ares
still falls under UCAS law, but LS can't come on to the property because
Ares is multinational, falls under the Shiawase Decision, has defined
borders, and therefore, extraterrioality (I'm so glad I can type this and
not have to say it:) So LS can't come on the grounds. Now, XYZ Inc., a
minor corp who has holdings throught the UCAS, but nowhere else, doesn't
have extraterrioality, and therefore, LS has jurisdiction. Multi-national
corps are basically like embassys who's agents don't have diplomatic
immunity outside of their grounds.

Something to remember for your players (this came up on ShadowTK), if a team
of runners breaks into a corp, does illegal stuff their, and then leaves and
hits the Seattle streets, still evading the security, they crossed
international lines and are now under the jurisdiction of Interpol, the
local police (LS in Seattle) _and_ the corp security if the corp and the
locals have an extridition treaty.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil Midnight
Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.
Message no. 42
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 23:37:52 +0200
At 20:19 Uhr 20.05.96, Mike Broadwater wrote:
>>Unlawfully? Unlawfully??unlawfully??!? Thats the whole point of extra
>>teritoriality, isn't it? The corps are now a law unto themselves! They
>>can do just about anything they like and no-one can do anything about it.
>>Thats why Shadow runners exist.:-D
>>The ROO-MAN.

>They can only do whatever they want within the own bounds of their grounds.
>If they go out on Seattle streets and kill people, they're acting
>unlawfully. Corps don't have diplomatic immunity.

>A corp only has extraterritoriality if they
>a). Are multinational
>b). Have defined borders
Absolutely correct, for those who are interested, it's in Corporate
Shadowfiles.

>and if they meet all that, they still have to obey the laws of their own
>country (the one where their corp HQ is). That means that in Seattle, Ares
>still falls under UCAS law, [...]
Hm... are you sure? As far as I understood it, Ares would have to make own
laws. OK, they'd copy large hunks of the UCAS Laws, but some interesting
facts would be changed...
These laws would define what is allowed (and what not) on Ares Grounds
'round the world.

>Multi-national
>corps are basically like embassys who's agents don't have diplomatic
>immunity outside of their grounds.
*nod* Yup.. now ... which laws do they fall under on their own ground?

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 43
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 22:01:41 +0100
In message <Pine.HPP.3.91.960520134819.19795D-100000@********>, Valerie
A Olson <volson@********.ca> writes
>On Mon, 20 May 1996, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> You have the same team working for you over and over and nobody's going
>> to notice? :)
>
>Okay, my first point has got to be why do your players know who they're
>running for? The whole point of having Johnsons around is that you DON'T
>know you're running for x Corp. only that you've got to go into y corp.
>and extract Prof. Reinstein, delivering him to Johnson. Your not on a
>Corp. payroll youre working a cash deal with a Mr. Johnson, no Corp.
>involved.

Kind of my point. This makes grabbing runners kind of irrelevant. "We
grabbed the Prof and we delivered him to the rendezvous. The guys there
took him away. They looked like <insert description>."

Real informative, no?

>> "Uh, the guy, he was, about six feet tall, and he had a gun, and he said
>> if I moved he'd kill me, I never really saw his face, I was really
>> scared..."
>>
>Yeah, that sounds like a trained Corp.sec. guard to me, c'mon! Even today
>the primary job for a security guard is to get descriptions of perps, can
>you see a bank dick keeping his job long if he reacted like that every
>time he had a gun stuck in his face? I didn't think so.
>Then of course there's the small matter of the security cameras, but
>we'll save that for another day.

The camera saw a blur and a muzzle flash. The shooter wore a full-face
helmet. The bullets recovered were fired from an Ares Predator.

And I was referring more to the majority of witnesses (employees, not
guards): guards are acting to protect the corporation and catch bullets,
or at the least tasers.

>> Sounds more like killing ants with sledgehammers. And you better be sure
>> you got the right person, and that your assassins don't get caught.
>>
>> Also, how are you putting this about? "Our strike team killed six
>> shadowrunners last night who had..."
>> "You murdered six civilians in UCAS jurisdiction?"
>> "No, we killed six fugitives-"
>> "You unlawfully executed six people without trial?"
>>
>Unlawfully? Unlawfully??unlawfully??!? Thats the whole point of extra
>teritoriality, isn't it? The corps are now a law unto themselves! They
>can do just about anything they like and no-one can do anything about it.
>Thats why Shadow runners exist.:-D

They can do anything they like _in their territory_. Outside that
territory, they break UCAS law and the UCAS, Lone Star and every other
corporation is gagging for a chance to leap on them. "Shocked! We are
shocked at the criminal behaviour of Corporation X!" The main law, off
their own territory, is "Thou Shalt Not Get Caught".


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 44
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 09:29:44 PDT
---------------Original Message---------------


Unlawfully? Unlawfully??unlawfully??!? Thats the whole point of extra
teritoriality, isn't it? The corps are now a law unto themselves! They
can do just about anything they like and no-one can do anything about it.
Thats why Shadow runners exist.:-D

Cheers,
The ROO-MAN.
via his wife.



----------End of Original Message----------
Corp law only applies within corporate territory. If a corp
steps outside there territory they have no force of law. If
corps break international law one of two things will happen.
They will get drag into a lot of corporate wars or dragged into
a lot of courts. This is not to say that corps have no power
outside there territory. To effect areas outside of your
territory requires covert action. This is why shadowrunners
exist.

Patrick
Message no. 45
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 21:50:05 -0400 (EDT)
At 02:03 PM 5/20/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Unlawfully? Unlawfully??unlawfully??!? That's the whole point of extra
>teritoriality, isn't it? The corps are now a law unto themselves! They
>can do just about anything they like and no-one can do anything about it.
>That's why Shadow runners exist.:-D

But as I recall (don't know the source now), but corps can do whatever they
want on their own property, but outside, they have to obey the local laws.




Naturally, this only applies if they get caught. *grin*

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer
Message no. 46
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:02:58 -0500
>And the shareholders will know that the corp struck out at pawns, rather
>than hitting the people who REALLY caused the trouble. What that would
>tell me is that the corp is getting scared, is striking out at irrelevant
>targets, AND can't defend itself.

"In the news today, Saeder-Krupp declared war on Fuchi over a physicist who
was 'liberated' from S-K earlier in the week".

Yep, that'll happen. Most likely the corp will attack it's rival in more
subtle means (e.g takeovers of subsidiaries, nailing the shadow assets --
your best team just died, now what do you do? --, sending runners to nullify
the benefits of what was stolen, etc.).

Take a look through Corporate Shadowfiles sometime (but make a lot of coffee
beforehand), it'll explain a great deal of what I'm trying to say in a
prettier and longer manner.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 47
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:03:05 -0500
>What this means is that the next time one of your competitors wants
>something, instead of sending in some plausibly deniable and expendible
>assets, they'll send in enough firepower to A) Get what they want, and B)
>Make sure no-one can pin it to them. THAT gets expensive faster than
>letting the runners slide.
>
>Aztechnology tries this stuff, BTW... it doesn't work all that well.

Runners are scared shitless to run against Aztechnology because they handle
things correctly. Runners by the horde work for Aztechnology though. Why?
The cash is there. Only the bravest/most foolhardy even attempt to hit
them. Most of them don't make it back. They pull in an enormous amount of
money, don't have public stock (so they don't have to answer to anyone in
that realm for their actions), and have perhaps the most devastating
security measures of any corp out there. Of course, they're also a country
so there's even more money.

Aztechnology rules through fear and the shadows do fear them.



-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 48
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:02:55 -0500
>>If I ran a corp and I knew of a team that nailed my corp, I'd hire them, set
>>them up, and kill them. Since it is 2057 and not 1057, I couldn't put their
>>heads on poles outside the office complex, but I could get some nice
>>pictures taken and set up a story for the papers. The more of those stories
>>that show up, the less likely subsequent attacks will be on the corp.
>>Ruling through fear is much easier than ruling through trust and far less
>>likely to hurt you in the end.

>I don't think so, Bob.

That's your opinion.

>Your corporation won't be able to hire runners because you got a rep in the
>streets for screwing them over. If you can't hire runners to do your dirty
>work, you're fucked, especially if you waste money "getting even" with every
>runner on the street that may have crossed your path.

Why would I get a rep for screwing runners over? They nailed me and I
nailed back, but I used a bigger hammer. That coupled with generously
rewarding services done would give me a rep as a great guy to work for and a
man who you didn't want to work against. See Aztechnology for a great example.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 49
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:03:07 -0500
>>Cost is minimal, shadow-assets are deniable, and
>>the shareholders know that it got taken care of, and quietly.
>If it's done quietly, how should the shareholders know?

Because shareholders are privvy to information that the general public is not.

>And if announced: Why use deniable assets, ie. Shadowrunners?

Announced doesn't have to mean plastered all over channel 22. It could mean
an anonymous post to a shadowland bbs or a watcher sent to someone who knew
what happened.

>>Corps aren't
>>stupid and won't throw away anything. They will min/max a situation and
>>come out with the best solution for the price.
>Which still doesn't explain why they should send a team after the runners.
>They wont get back their lost goodies.

Why not?

>They wont frighten away other runners.

You'd be surprised...

> They will have to pay for the revenge.

Sure, but the pay is a pittance to the corp and can be worth more than was
spent if handled right.

>It would sure be more
>productive to hire Runner themselves and get back the info/personel
>to regain their losses. From whoever has it then.

Which could and should happen as I mentioned before, but why not have those
runners (the ones who originally grabbed the info/personnel) killed too?
The runners have to hold onto the item(s) for a while after they nab 'em.
It probably wouldn't cost extra to have them killed, might even cost less
(it's a lot easier to take something from a corpse than to try and knowck
that someone out and then get it from them, so a "leave 'em alive" run would
cost a lot more).

If the Johnson has the item, then you can send a team back in to do harm to
the other corp, nullify the benefits of what they stole, grab more stuff, or
whatever else you want to do. But I'd pay the runners a visit anyway, just
so they'd know that I knew they did it (watcher spirit most likely).
Nothing like knowing that you got identified and that the corp can find you.
Would you go against them again?


-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 50
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:03:01 -0500
>>If corp Y is so small that sending out a small group after a single runner
>>team will open them up from all other directions, then corp Z will certainly
>>be able to capitalize. Corps aren't tiny little mom & pop stores just off
>>the freeway, they're multinational organizations with as much manpower as
>>some countries. Some even are countries. They also control a huge percent
>>of the world's economy. So I think they can afford to nail down a
>>shadowrunner team without finding themselves open in any way.

>Trying to hunt down a shadowrunning team is a costly endeavour. You're
>talking some serious assets, both in the investigative side and the final
>"elimination" phase.

Set up a run proposal, have snipers waiting, fire when ready. Cost? X
number of APDS rounds (where X represents the number of runners present).
Investigative work? The fixer handled that for you. Maybe drop a few
thousand his way to cover the burden on his cold black heart. Or hire
wetwork runners to get the team. Cost? Maybe 100,000 a head.

> Now, if you go about doing this for EVERY hit
>against you (and you said this is happening every day), then I don't care
>if you are Ares Macrotechnology: you are consuming a hell of a lot of
>funds, and you ARE going to have to cut corners elsewhere.

Like I mentioned, it's cheaper than you'd think. There aren't that many
runs on each facility over the course of a year and most of those are done
by deckers (who don't have it as easy as they used to). The few on-site
penetrations that do occur are usually snuffed. The ones that do get
through are lucky and good. I'm not talking about god-level security, just
the average. Anything worth hitting is going to be protected.

>When you get right down to it, what is it worth? The other corp payed out
>maybe 100K Y for the run, maybe more. Call it an operating budget of 250K
>Y. The target in question was worth probably no more than about 3,4
>million (gee, as if), and at THAT, it's probably only worth that much for
>your corp and the other corp. Gee... ONE corp strike team, with magical
>support, can cost that much. And you STILL won't get your asset back,
>probably.

One shadowrunner team worth 3-4 million will trash a shadowrunner team worth
250K in one round or less. Why pay your own guys to do it if runners will
kill runners for less and still remain deniable?

>Sure, Ares might put several billion into security. However, they've got
>THOUSANDS, maybe millions, of sites to protect. It's not worth the
>expenditure.

Many times it will be worth the expenditure, it's not like the runners broke
in to steal some paperclips and a legal pad.

>And besides, there just aren't all that many top-level running teams. If
>you eliminate a few, then the others aren't going to run against you, but
>they won't run for you either.

Why wouldn't they work for you? You're the toughest act in town and if
you've got the nuyen, you've got the team. Realistically anyway.

> And if you start doing it, then your
>competitors will too, and soon there won't be any running teams left.
>Sounds good so far? But the corps DO want running teams out there. If
>they didn't, they wouldn't hire them.

Only in an unrealistic campaign would this happen. A cyberpunk world is
what I play in and what SR is based on. Cash is king and he with the most
cash king above all. The fluffy usually end up dead, the smart get out
while they still can, the dumb are coffin filler waiting for their turn. It
isn't pretty or moral, it's dark and real. But this is how I play. You may
want a cuddly world of morals and honor. That's your choice and I'll
respect that.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 51
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:03:11 -0500
>Yeah, sure. People knocked out can always describe you. Things like
>"...and the third guy had 'Topcat' on his nameplate, was about 1.89 m tall,
>and a slight [insert place here] accent. His business card says he's
>reachable at...". While going around shooting people will just tell
>the corp what kind of weapon you are carring (with nonlethal weapons the
>same, OK) and you are willing to inflict whatever damage you can.

Many people replied along this line and I have the same exact answer for
each and every one of them. Mind Probe. Corps would be more than willing
to do this to find out the identity of the runners, don't you think? Cheap,
effective, and perhaps the best use of mages that corporations have. They'd
actually be seeing the runners as the guard saw them instead of listening to
his drivel. Also, why not put miniaturized cameras on sec-guards helmets.
We can do that today and I'd guess they've gotten smaller, cheaper, and more
durable by 2057. Smile for the camera, shadowboy.

>Yo, now THAT convinces me. Confidence. See what we did, we sent out a
>team (which cost us just about [insert whatever you like]) and just TRASHED
>four civilians, err, Shadowrunners, err, terrorists. See how strong we are?
>They resisted being shot, that proves they are criminals. Do you like me
>now? *sigh*

No, they'd say: "The terrorists who infiltrated our site last week have been
handled. Now, could we get some coffee over here?". It's all in a days
work. Never mention that they were civilians (they weren't, they lacked
SINs). As far as the world knows, they didn't exist. Just more
unregistered trash rotting in a dumpster somewhere.

>...and building up such a rep will ensure no runner will work for
>you when you need 'em. Maybe some will even lower their prices AGAINST
>you, since runners are people. Corps are not.

Runners do it for the money. There are a few groups of fluffy cuddly
Barnie-runners out there who'll take jobs for less or even for nothing
because they're against "the bad guys", but there are also groups of runners
out there who'd ace their mothers for a wad of nuyen. Then there's every
runner in between who'll take what the job is worth and do it as it needs to
be done. Runners aren't people to corps, they're weapons.

>>No, but it does mean hunt. The runners may not even know that they are
>>being hunted or even by who. It could be that other shadowrunner team
>>across the bar. Or that gang of trolls hanging out at the corner. Or it
>>could be your own fixer setting you up for a fall. All of those are
>>deniable assets. The public probbaly won't even know those runners died,
>>but the shadows will know that they did, why they did, and who did it.

>...but you said "thrust in confidence" and "shareholder know",
didn't you?
>In this same mail? Hello? Read what you write, will you?

Different things can happen for different situations. The runner community
is not the public. The shareholder community is not the public. The
corporate community is not the public. Any of those could find out what
happened through any variety of means. Just because it isn't plastered all
over every news channel doesn't mean that it is perfectly hidden. It might
even be hidden from all save a select few, if the situation would be best
handled that way.

I do read what I write. I would hope you would understand it, but sometimes
that doesn't happen.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 52
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:03:15 -0500
>>If I ran a corp and I knew of a team that nailed my corp, [...]
>That's the first problem: Corps are no persons. Maybe people IN a corp
>have nasty feelings toward a Runnerteam, but the corp as whole would
>look after the bottom line, which means: Don't throw money out if you
>can't regain it. And to counter your favourite answer to the bottom
>line statement: What would be more sensible: To gain 0.000001 pts
>increase in stockmarket because "we wasted 4 people iwth our whole
>corp" or risking massive damage to your goods because every runnerteam
>will try not to be recognized and waste anything around 'em to
>obscure their trails?

If a corp sent out everything it had against a runner team, there's would be
missing chunks of real estate the size of Alaska around the target area and
the runners wouldn't last one hour longer than the order went out. This
won't happen, of course.

0.000001 points is hundreds of millions of dollars.

Money lost to another corp is worse than cash spent. If you can nullify
their benefit, then it is worth a great deal of money. You, after all, have
the beginnings of the research to fall back on, they don't.

>>I'd hire them, set
>>them up, and kill them.
>(Some) Persons do that. Gives you that fuzzy feeling in the ... wherever.
>But it does not pay out.

Cost is X APDS rounds, where X equals the number of runners, as fired by
snipers. You never pay the runner team anything, maybe last respects. And
it would give any corp a warm fuzzy feeling to end a threat.

>>Ruling through fear is much easier than ruling through trust and far less
>>likely to hurt you in the end.
>...and much more expensive, but you seem to think corps grow through losses,
>you may have your point. Somewhere. Maybe.
><font size=-3>Maybe not.</font>

The corp lost no-one of their own. Spent a little pocket change, killed off
a threat that was working for another corp, solidified their stance on how
they deal with threats. All in a day's work.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 53
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:03:21 -0500
>>Impressive security measures are much cheaper than you think. Especially to
>>a megacorp which can throw off a few million without any real care. Plus,
>>you can never have enough security in the eyes of the shareholders.
>>Skimping there could cost you without the defenses ever having been tried.
>You *can* have too much security, just as you can have too much
>management... it's an overhead that doesn't bring in a return.
>Shareholders might start muttering about all that money sunk for no
>tangible gain...

Agreed, but all it takes is one threat to that security carried through and
shareholders will be screaming for the latest milspec technology.

>>[snipped my mean and nasty corp ideas]
>It also means nobody will work for you.

I disagree with this, see my previous postings for explanation.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 54
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:03:18 -0500
>>>If I ran a corp and I knew of a team that nailed my corp, [...]
>> That's the first problem: Corps are no persons. Maybe people IN a corp
>> have nasty feelings toward a Runnerteam,
>The time you are really in trouble is if you annoy a specific person.
>If your run cost the sec manager a promotion or kills the VP's
>daughter (some stray attack blew up the nursery for instnace) you can
>be in big time trouble, though the person using corp assets for
>personal vendettas is really in drek if his/her boss finds out.

But if that person can set it up as a corporate operation and not a personal
vendetta, then all's well. Which is what will happen more often than not.

>>>I'd hire them, set
>>>them up, and kill them.
>Effective but the chance of a backfire if anyone knows you did it is
>dangerous.

Depends on who exactly did it and who exactly knows. Chance of backfire
becomes zero after a bit of careful planning, and corps will plan carefully.

>>>Ruling through fear is much easier than ruling through trust and far less
>>>likely to hurt you in the end.
>Assuming you get away with it, if the result is a backfire it could
>get very costly. As long as you have the upper hand its fine. Trust
>has the problem that you could well lose something all the time but
>as long as you are carefull (ie never forget the intelligence
>department) it is less likely to go disasterously wrong though it
>will probably cause more minor problems more regularly.

How can you lose trust if you reward your own shadowrunners well and
eliminate the opposition's runners? I know that I'd want to work for a corp
that did that. I would not want to work for one that would let a team hit
them, then pay them to hit someone else. The chance is way too great that
they're still working for their previous corp and would screw you over.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 55
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:03:24 -0500
>You have the same team working for you over and over and nobody's going
>to notice? :)

Sure they'll notice. But they'd also notice that you work for corp X, corp
Y, and corp Z. If any of those finds out that you've done runs on
themselves, you're in big trouble.

>>Even on the stealthiest of entries, you'll end up meeting
>>someone somewhere sometime. If you choose to knock them out, then they'll
>>know things about you. If you kill them, "dead men tell no tales".
>"Uh, the guy, he was, about six feet tall, and he had a gun, and he said
>if I moved he'd kill me, I never really saw his face, I was really
>scared..."

Mind Probe gives all the little details.

>Also, how are you putting this about? "Our strike team killed six
>shadowrunners last night who had..."
>"You murdered six civilians in UCAS jurisdiction?"
>"No, we killed six fugitives-"
>"You unlawfully executed six people without trial?"

Anonymous Shadowland BBS posting: The team that did job X was wiped out to
the last man last night.

Watcher spirit to any surviving team members: We're watching you.

Board meeting: The problem we had last week was taken care of.

Lone Star: We were minding our own business when these ruffians tried to
attack us. Lucky for us, some unknown benefactor shot them all before they
could hurt us. They also had this big bag of credsticks with them...

Also, runners are rarely citizens. You have to have a SIN to be a citizen.
They're just a bunch of corpses rotting in a dumpster out in the barrens
that nobody ever saw get put there and nobody is going to go near.

>If you don't publicise, your investors don't find out and you might as
>well not have bothered. If you do, you have some very tricky explaining
>to do. Extraterritoriality cuts both ways.

They have more confidence without ever knowing what happened. They find out
that the top-level owners are buying up more, so the little guys buy more
too on the assumption that the big guys know something that they don't.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 56
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:03:28 -0500
>Okay, my first point has got to be why do your players know who they're
>running for? The whole point of having Johnsons around is that you DON'T
>know you're running for x Corp. only that you've got to go into y corp.
>and extract Prof. Reinstein, delivering him to Johnson. Your not on a
>Corp. payroll youre working a cash deal with a Mr. Johnson, no Corp.
>involved.

You don't know who you're working for, but the people who hired you know.
Also, when you see that the physicist that you liberated last week is now
working for a Fuchi subsidiary, then you kinda get an idea. It doesn't ever
matter that the runners know.

>Yeah, that sounds like a trained Corp.sec. guard to me, c'mon! Even today
>the primary job for a security guard is to get descriptions of perps, can
>you see a bank dick keeping his job long if he reacted like that every
>time he had a gun stuck in his face? I didn't think so.
>Then of course there's the small matter of the security cameras, but
>we'll save that for another day.

I love security cameras. And I love Mind Probe more.

>Unlawfully? Unlawfully??unlawfully??!? Thats the whole point of extra
>teritoriality, isn't it? The corps are now a law unto themselves! They
>can do just about anything they like and no-one can do anything about it.
>Thats why Shadow runners exist.:-D

I think Mike posted a bit along these lines so I won't go into detail on it.
But extraterritorialty gives a huge amount of benefits at zero cost.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 57
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 01:03:30 -0500
[snipped all of Mike Broadwater's posts on the subject]

Good to see someone's with me on this. Even if it is my old mortal enemy,
the nefarious Mr. Broadwater ;)

Thanks for the support, chief :)

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 58
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 17:44:45 +1030
>"Don't kill him. Let him get away. We made need to hire him later."???? I
>can't see this situation coming up.
>
>Someone breaks into your corp, they're toast. If you can knock them out and
>catch them, that is much better, but if you can't, they can't be allowed to
>steal your information/plans/employee because it's all an asset. If the
>competition gets it, they can make money from it with little to no cost to
>themselves, which will hurt you. Corps are going to pull out all the stops
>to try and keep a runner from getting their goods.

Trying to stop the runner is one thing. Making a protracted effort to
hunt them down AFTER they hand over the goods to their employers is
something else.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 59
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 10:17:26 GMT + 2:00
@ > > A couple of weeks ago, (in the middle of the Sammie & mage
@ > > discussion), I said I was going to bring something up I had been thinking
@
@ > > about for a while. Well, here it is...
@ > >
@ > > Is it my imagination, or do 98.2% of the Shadowrun chars out
@ > > there kill casually? I mean, think about it, people generally don't go
@ > > around offing people... usually there is some extreme emotion involved.

No. Our characters have a sort indirect moto, do what has to
be done. In most cases we rarely kill unless it is nessessary or in
character. It is a case we will do what we have to do to survive.

For example my character has little or no qualms about
offing an invisible mage, after if he's invisible, hes up to no good.
Or take another of our characters, he hates all forms of dogs after a
particularly nasty incident, most of the dogs that we saw after that
where jellied poodle. Almost made headlines.

One thing that we do play, is that the lower your essence, the less
your emotions impact on you. For instance our shamen won't kill but
would run away. Our street sam doesn't give a damn about killing
legitimate targets such as corp goons firing at us, but on one run
he couldn't bring himself to shoot a pair of farmers that where
calling in the groups location to some military base.

@ > My present group doesn't do wetwork, we don't kill casually, we
have
@ > killed cyborgs, and some guys who were wacked out on combat drugs. We
@ > killed them because we couldn't knock them down, knock them out, or other
@ > wise incapacitate them. The gaurd doing his job usually doesn't know
@ > we're there, if he does, he usually goes 'nite-nite', and wakes up with a
@ > slight headache. (via stunbolt, sleep spell, or a good old fashioned thump
@ > to the back of the head)
@ >
@ > We're actually proud not to have left a trail of bodies where ever we go.

We tried on wetwork mission, hated it and haven't done any since.

We found that subtlty works the best. One of the better runs ended up
with us stealing the data, with no one the wiser about what happened.
The cameras showed nothing, and a guard woke up the next morning with
a headache from sleeping in the wrongposition.

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 60
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 18:05:34 +1030
>Unlawfully? Unlawfully??unlawfully??!? Thats the whole point of extra
>teritoriality, isn't it? The corps are now a law unto themselves! They
>can do just about anything they like and no-one can do anything about it.
>Thats why Shadow runners exist.:-D

Bzzzzt!!!! Sorry, but thanks for playing!

Extraterritoriality is exactly that. It exists today, in the case of
embassies (and some consulates, but not all). It means that some
designated area of land is under your nation's (or corporation's) laws.
If you cross the line dividing the UCAS from "Renraku-land", then you
become liable to that country's laws, and your operatives are not
protected. In addition, if you shield your operatives after the fact, the
corporation is liable. The corp can face punitive fines on a large scale,
and the government DOES act on these cases. The government doesn't like
the corps walking all over them, you know, and they DO still have the
bigger and better armies.

About the only corp which could face off to a nation-state would be
Aztechnology... and that's only because they ARE a nation-state.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 61
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 18:05:46 +1030
>Something to remember for your players (this came up on ShadowTK), if a team
>of runners breaks into a corp, does illegal stuff their, and then leaves and
>hits the Seattle streets, still evading the security, they crossed
>international lines and are now under the jurisdiction of Interpol, the
>local police (LS in Seattle) _and_ the corp security if the corp and the
>locals have an extridition treaty.

Um, no... :) Sorry. If you do a hit in corp town, and hit the streets,
you have NOT committed an offence in the UCAS (well, probably some
speeding & possession violations). Interpol doesn't come into it, unless
the corp is part of the Interpol organisation. That is unlikely, as then
they'd be subject to international law as well (instead of just the Corp.
Council). And no corp signs extradition treaties, because such treaties
are two-way.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 62
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 18:05:20 +1030
>A corp only has extraterritoriality if they
>a). Are multinational
>b). Have defined borders
>and if they meet all that, they still have to obey the laws of their own
>country (the one where their corp HQ is).

Umm... no, to that last. A truly extraterritorial corp is a nation in
it's own rights, with legislative powers of it's own right. Enter the
Arcology, and you're not in Japan, you're in "Renraku Land".


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 63
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 18:05:27 +1030
>"Uh, the guy, he was, about six feet tall, and he had a gun, and he said
>if I moved he'd kill me, I never really saw his face, I was really
>scared..."

"I never really saw his face, he had a helmet on".
"I don't know how tall he was, as I got shot with Narcoject from hiding"

Etc, etc... witnesses don't always have a story to tell. And if you
disguise your identity, as you should (hey, maybe that security camera is
recording after all), then a witness isn't too much of a concern.

>Also, how are you putting this about? "Our strike team killed six
>shadowrunners last night who had..."
>"You murdered six civilians in UCAS jurisdiction?"
>"No, we killed six fugitives-"
>"You unlawfully executed six people without trial?"

Good point... Megacorps are laws unto themselves until they step outside
their corp territory. On the other side of the wire, they break the law
doing that kind of stuff and they ARE accountable for it.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 64
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 18:05:08 +1030
>Yep, that'll happen. Most likely the corp will attack it's rival in more
>subtle means (e.g takeovers of subsidiaries, nailing the shadow assets --
>your best team just died, now what do you do?

Your best team just died? Big deal, they are shadowrunners! They are
expendable. That's what they are for.

Now, if you were a corp-sponsored hit team, that's something else. Doing
a pay-back strike at such a team would be worthwhile. But hitting the
runners is like wanting to hit the gun that shot you, not the person who
pulled the trigger.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 65
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 11:36:36 +0100
TopCat said on 1:03/21 May 96...

> Good to see someone's with me on this. Even if it is my old mortal enemy,
> the nefarious Mr. Broadwater ;)

It's not your enemies, but your friends you have to watch out for, isn't
it? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I want it back, a wanted man
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 66
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 11:36:36 +0100
Robert Watkins said on 18:05/21 May 96...

> "I never really saw his face, he had a helmet on".
> "I don't know how tall he was, as I got shot with Narcoject from hiding"
>
> Etc, etc... witnesses don't always have a story to tell. And if you
> disguise your identity, as you should (hey, maybe that security camera is
> recording after all), then a witness isn't too much of a concern.

And they give contradicting statements:
"He was about a meter 75 tall, officer. Yeah, and rail-thin. And he had a
red jacket on."
"About one-eighty, one-eighty-five. And at least a hundred kilos.
Positive. And wearing a blue jacket with yellow on it."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I want it back, a wanted man
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 67
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 11:36:36 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 23:37/20 May 96...

> >and if they meet all that, they still have to obey the laws of their own
> >country (the one where their corp HQ is). That means that in Seattle, Ares
> >still falls under UCAS law, [...]
> Hm... are you sure? As far as I understood it, Ares would have to make own
> laws. OK, they'd copy large hunks of the UCAS Laws, but some interesting
> facts would be changed...
> These laws would define what is allowed (and what not) on Ares Grounds
> 'round the world.

Plus they can get changed in a second depending on the situation --
nobody ever said they need to stick to their own laws if it doesn't suit
them. Take the sec guard who shoots a civilian, on his corporations'
terrain. The guard will likely face charges for killing someone under the
law of the corp, but he'll get off much lighter than a civilian shooting a
guard. The reason here is PR -- if the public thinks the corp doesn't care
about them, they won't buy the corp's products.

Now replace the civilian by a burglar. The guard shoots him, and gets
commended for "eliminating a dangerous fellon posing a threat to the
community as a whole." If the burglar shoots the guard, probably the only
trial he'll get (assuming he gets caught) is administered by a company man
with a gun. After they've made sure he was working alone and has no
buddies that also need to be rooted out.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I want it back, a wanted man
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 68
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 12:15:32 +0200
At 8:03 Uhr 21.05.96, TopCat wrote:
[Hunting Runners too expensive]
>Set up a run proposal, have snipers waiting, fire when ready. Cost? X
>number of APDS rounds (where X represents the number of runners present).
>Investigative work? The fixer handled that for you. Maybe drop a few
>thousand his way to cover the burden on his cold black heart. Or hire
>wetwork runners to get the team. Cost? Maybe 100,000 a head.
Benefits? Null. Great, "We just paid 100 KY and killed 25% of the criminals
who stole >whatever<. Alas, we didn't get it back... maybe if we spend
another few hunderd thousands..." (You wouldn't go to a meeting in full
force, now, would you?)
Yes, I can really imagine that on a shareholder meeting... :-)

>Like I mentioned, it's cheaper than you'd think.
Maybe. But you gotta explain why you spend ANY money, and why there is no
visible benefit, to the revisors (I don't know if that's the right word,
someone who checks the income/expenses).

>There aren't that many
>runs on each facility over the course of a year and most of those are done
>by deckers (who don't have it as easy as they used to). The few on-site
>penetrations that do occur are usually snuffed.
I think we have a generally different view of how corps react and what they
have to do... and what they will do to you.

>>Sure, Ares might put several billion into security. However, they've got
>>THOUSANDS, maybe millions, of sites to protect. It's not worth the
>>expenditure.
>Many times it will be worth the expenditure, it's not like the runners broke
>in to steal some paperclips and a legal pad.
But YOU have to pay ALL the time, while the runners just have to break security
once...

>Only in an unrealistic campaign would this happen. A cyberpunk world is
>what I play in and what SR is based on. Cash is king and he with the most
>cash king above all.
You have explained over and over that in _YOUR_ game "Cash is king". OK,
but don't forget that he who throws away resources is the fool.
And don't try and tell us that just because YOU handle something this
way or that, we all gotta follow or are awfully wrong.

>The fluffy usually end up dead, the smart get out
>while they still can, the dumb are coffin filler waiting for their turn.
The real smart ones wouldn't become Shadowrunners in a world where each Corps
sets out strike teams against each and any runner who penetrates their
security. They'd join the Mafia or become a Squatter - better poor & alive
then hunted by each MegaCorp in the world.

>It
>isn't pretty or moral, it's dark and real. But this is how I play. You may
>want a cuddly world of morals and honor. That's your choice and I'll
>respect that.
Even the second level drug dealers I know have more sense of honor/moral/
ethic then you display here. And they have to, if they wouldn't care for the
Street Level Dealers, the chance of being compromised whenever one of those
is arrested would be too great.
On a personal level, in a dark world you have to have "morals" or
"honor".
But maybe that's all too soft for you...

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 69
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 12:15:51 +0200
At 8:03 Uhr 21.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>If a corp sent out everything it had against a runner team, there's would be
>missing chunks of real estate the size of Alaska around the target area and
>the runners wouldn't last one hour longer than the order went out. This
>won't happen, of course.
If a corps sends out even a single strike team after the runners (the only
way to gain back their goodies), they'll pay through the nose. Any damage
done will have to be paid when not on their own territory, they'll sure as
hell pay for "civil unrest", injured or dead civilians...
Remember, once off their extraterritorial domain, they have no special
rights if there isn't someone who gave them an "operation permission"
(how fast can you say "bribe"? :-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 70
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 12:15:39 +0200
At 8:02 Uhr 21.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>Why would I get a rep for screwing runners over? They nailed me and I
>nailed back, but I used a bigger hammer. That coupled with generously
>rewarding services done would give me a rep as a great guy to work for and a
>man who you didn't want to work against. See Aztechnology for a great example.
Read that paragraph:
"I", "me", "I", "I", "me"... and so on.
Wrong, chummer.
As long as you didn't really get it on a personal level ("They always attack
MY projects, why don't these *** attack the projects of Mr. Hubba from next
office?") There is no "I" or "me" in a Corp. It is: "Would
the corp benefit?",
more to "How can the corp get cash from this?".

You talk about revenge, most of the other talk about making cash. We have
different opinions if a Shadowrunner could be in it for other reasons then
the holly nuyen, but on the only point where we could agree, you back down.
So, to have it translated, "Shadowrunners are just after money, Corps have
a sense of honor that forces them to take revenge."
Yeah, sure.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 71
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 12:15:45 +0200
At 8:03 Uhr 21.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>>>Cost is minimal, shadow-assets are deniable, and
>>>the shareholders know that it got taken care of, and quietly.
>>If it's done quietly, how should the shareholders know?
>Because shareholders are privvy to information that the general public is not.
Hey! My character /is/ a shareholder in more then oppne false identities!
I am really interested in the official statements of a corp, pet projects
etc that come with holding (a few, OK) shares.

>>They wont get back their lost goodies.
>Why not?
I think it was you who pointed out Runners act via middle men, aka Johnsons.
So a runner team wouldn't have what they stole too long. So if you go after
'em and are not extremely fast (within an hour or two) there are good chances
your goodies are gone for good.
And YOUR plan it was to set up a meet with the runners to have 'em all executed
by snipers (to cut losses to a minimum). By THAT time, your goodies will have
grey hair :-)

>>They wont frighten away other runners.
>You'd be surprised...
I am with each new message from you :-(

>> They will have to pay for the revenge.
>Sure, but the pay is a pittance to the corp and can be worth more than was
>spent if handled right.
Nonsense. Not even a hundred or so nuyen are "a pittance". You have to explain
every single nuyen, ad why you spent it, and why you didn't turn it into
wins, and why you have /once again/ lived over your budget. Rich people are not
rich because they spend their money, Corps even less so.

Sascha (I start to hate this threat)

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 72
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 21:48:42 +1030
>>The time you are really in trouble is if you annoy a specific person.
>>If your run cost the sec manager a promotion or kills the VP's
>>daughter (some stray attack blew up the nursery for instnace) you can
>>be in big time trouble, though the person using corp assets for
>>personal vendettas is really in drek if his/her boss finds out.
>
>But if that person can set it up as a corporate operation and not a personal
>vendetta, then all's well. Which is what will happen more often than not.

Oh yeah... then one of that person's underlings reports to the bosses
upstairs that Gee, the VP is using corp assets for his or her own use.
Next thing you know, the VP is "retired", and the underling gets a
promotion. Corp politics at work.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 73
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 21:48:35 +1030
>No, they'd say: "The terrorists who infiltrated our site last week have been
>handled. Now, could we get some coffee over here?". It's all in a days
>work. Never mention that they were civilians (they weren't, they lacked
>SINs). As far as the world knows, they didn't exist. Just more
>unregistered trash rotting in a dumpster somewhere.

Who says they lack SINs? Every runner I've played has had a SIN... in
some cases, one of them was even real. In addition, even the SINless have
rights in the UCAS, and the UCAS government drools over the possiblity of
even a thin legal wedge to slam into the corps.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 74
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 21:48:57 +1030
>>When you get right down to it, what is it worth? The other corp payed out
>>maybe 100K Y for the run, maybe more. Call it an operating budget of 250K
>>Y. The target in question was worth probably no more than about 3,4
>>million (gee, as if), and at THAT, it's probably only worth that much for
>>your corp and the other corp. Gee... ONE corp strike team, with magical
>>support, can cost that much. And you STILL won't get your asset back,
>>probably.
>
>One shadowrunner team worth 3-4 million will trash a shadowrunner team worth
>250K in one round or less. Why pay your own guys to do it if runners will
>kill runners for less and still remain deniable?

Hold it... the RUN had a budget of 250K. Not the team. The run is a once
off. And a 3-4 million team might not have any more chance of success
either.

>>Sure, Ares might put several billion into security. However, they've got
>>THOUSANDS, maybe millions, of sites to protect. It's not worth the
>>expenditure.
>
>Many times it will be worth the expenditure, it's not like the runners broke
>in to steal some paperclips and a legal pad.

Did you read the above? Would you really spend 50 million protecting a
site that's worth 51 million?

>>Sounds good so far? But the corps DO want running teams out there. If
>>they didn't, they wouldn't hire them.
>
>Only in an unrealistic campaign would this happen. A cyberpunk world is
>what I play in and what SR is based on. Cash is king and he with the most
>cash king above all. The fluffy usually end up dead, the smart get out
>while they still can, the dumb are coffin filler waiting for their turn. It
>isn't pretty or moral, it's dark and real. But this is how I play. You may
>want a cuddly world of morals and honor. That's your choice and I'll
>respect that.

No, I don't play a cuddly world of morals and honour... but I _do_ play a
world that makes sense.

Look at some scenarios here...
Corp A starts nailing every runner in sight that hurts them. Okay, now if
this is a good tactic, every corp starts doing this. Soon, no more
runners. Nobody would enter the business. Simple? But the corps WANT
runners, amigo. They like nice expendable assets that don't appear on
ledger books and are totally deniable. After all, the shadowrunning
community only came about because the corps caused it to exist. So, logic
tells me that corps DON'T nail every runner in sight.

You want to play that way, fine, it's a valid way to play. But you can't
build a world like Shadowrun around it. All the runners would have to be
closely tied to a corp, just to survive, in which case they are not
deniable, and are just another form of a corp hit team.



--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 75
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 21:49:43 +1030
>Runners are scared shitless to run against Aztechnology because they handle
>things correctly. Runners by the horde work for Aztechnology though. Why?

No they don't... Aztechnology doesn't hire runners, by-and-large (some
individuals within Aztechnology do, though). According to "Aztlan
Sourcebook", Aztechnology hit runners hard, and don't hire them either.
They use their own assets.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 76
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 21:49:59 +1030
>Mind Probe gives all the little details.

No it doesn't... Mind Probe only give you what the subject KNOWS. If the
subject really didn't see enough to give any good information, then Mind
Probe won't help out.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 77
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 21:50:10 +1030
>Set up a run proposal, have snipers waiting, fire when ready. Cost? X
>number of APDS rounds (where X represents the number of runners present).
>Investigative work? The fixer handled that for you. Maybe drop a few
>thousand his way to cover the burden on his cold black heart. Or hire
>wetwork runners to get the team. Cost? Maybe 100,000 a head.

And it wouldn't work on my team. First: the fixer wouldn't be able to get
new clients (runners)... he double-crosses them. Second: my teams meet
only in public places by preference, such as clubs and what-not. Turf
they know. If they have to meet somewhere which could be an ambush, they
get there early and secure the site. Any team which falls for that
deserved it.

Oh, and besides, I've been trying to hit one of the mages in my team with
snipers for AGES... a strong enough barrier spell can stop damn near
anything.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 78
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 08:06:02 -0600 (MDT)
Robert Watkins wrote:
|
|>Mind Probe gives all the little details.
|
|No it doesn't... Mind Probe only give you what the subject KNOWS. If the
|subject really didn't see enough to give any good information, then Mind
|Probe won't help out.

Something else to keep in mind when using Mind Probe. People remember what
they want to remember (unconsciously). And, memories of details degrade
pretty quickly (unless the person has total recall, which is very, very
rare). And people who are able to memorize details usually have to
concentrate. If an event happens suddenly and they don't have time to
prepare then their recollection of it will be about as good as anyone
elses.

And you can have fun with people's memories. If an event happens and a
couple of people try to influence one person's memory of the event (Hey,
did you see what that guy in the _yellow cape_ did?) they can usually
succeed if the person is weak willed.

Mind Probe is as acurate as the person it's used on.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 79
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:32:25 GMT
TopCat writes

> >Aztechnology tries this stuff, BTW... it doesn't work all that well.
>
> Runners are scared shitless to run against Aztechnology because they handle
> things correctly.
You missed one problem.

> Runners by the horde work for Aztechnology though. Why?
> The cash is there. Only the bravest/most foolhardy even attempt to hit
> them. Most of them don't make it back. They pull in an enormous amount of
> money, don't have public stock (so they don't have to answer to anyone in
> that realm for their actions),
Yes they do actually. Have you checked the 'public relations' limit
in corp shadowfiles, a corporation is limited to a maximum of asset
rating equally double its public rating (although many people don't
care some customers do care what the company they buy off does)
Aztechnology is the smallest rating wise of the big 8 because its rep
is 4 (due to that rule by fear methodology) they do ok in some ways
but it does hurt them.

> and have perhaps the most devastating
> security measures of any corp out there. Of course, they're also a country
> so there's even more money.
>
Its also probably why they get away with so much, a lot of things can
be hidden simply because they have managed to pursuade the public
that Aztechnology is a corp and Atzlan is a nation, most folks assume
the two cannot be the same even if one is in the pocket of the other
which cover so many ills. That 'nationalisation' of corps in Atzlan
was the government not us pleads Aztechnology (as they did the
former!) the business world might not be fooled but they could not do
much about it.

> Aztechnology rules through fear and the shadows do fear them. >
>
Yeah, so what you go visiting you go prepared for them or you dont go
(or your silly in which case they have a nice alter or research lab
waiting)

Mark
Message no. 80
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 10:51:48 -0500
>>and if they meet all that, they still have to obey the laws of their own
>>country (the one where their corp HQ is). That means that in Seattle, Ares
>>still falls under UCAS law, [...]
>Hm... are you sure? As far as I understood it, Ares would have to make own
>laws. OK, they'd copy large hunks of the UCAS Laws, but some interesting
>facts would be changed...
Uh, actually, no I'm not sure. Thats how I thought it worked, but maybe
not. I figure since the UCAS gov't can't investigate what goes on inside an
Ares compound, it's mostly a moot point. But maybe not. Unfortunately, the
only way I can think to solve this is if I read "Corp. Shadowfiles" again.
I guess this is karma getting back at me.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil Midnight
Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.
Message no. 81
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:18:57 +0100
In message <9605210602.AB25157@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>Why would I get a rep for screwing runners over? They nailed me and I
>nailed back, but I used a bigger hammer. That coupled with generously
>rewarding services done would give me a rep as a great guy to work for and a
>man who you didn't want to work against. See Aztechnology for a great example.

Aztechnology doesn't hire runners: does its work in-house, according to
the Aztlan book. And sure, while you work for them they pay well. Until
they decide you know too much, your loyalty is questionable, or you're
too well known as working for Aztechnology, at which point you just...
vanish.

Good money? Gotta be alive to spend it.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 82
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:11:55 -0500
>>Mind Probe gives all the little details.

>No it doesn't... Mind Probe only give you what the subject KNOWS. If the
>subject really didn't see enough to give any good information, then Mind
>Probe won't help out.

"Three or more successes allow the magician to enter the target's
subconcious" (pg. 153, SRII)

Which will give you information on what really happened. The detection
spell table on pg. 152 states that with 4 successes you will get accurate
and detailed information. Now, let's make the subject voluntary. He
suppresses his willpower down to one, the mage casts his mind probe with @**
dice or more. He gets 8 successes. Wow. I'd say that'd give you pretty
much anything you'd want.

Next, I'll discuss cameras. With technology as advanced as it is in 2057,
from two camera angels you could create a three-dimensional to-scale replica
of the runners. Admittedly, if they are all wearing helmets and baggy
clothes, then it'll be hard to get exact info on them. If those helmets
have a faceplate, you can at least get eyes and skin tone, probably some
facial structure, nose, and maybe even mouth and chin. If the faceplate is
one-way, then you won't. If there is no faceplate, then things get easier.
If the clothing worn is tight-fitting or normal, then you can get an
accurate representation of height/weight/build. So from two camera angles
I've now produced approximate replicas of every one of the runners, I'll
know what weapons they used and what equip they carried. I might even know
what they look like or have some idea of what they look like.

The key to the cameras is the fact that the runners have covered themselves
up a great deal. Those runners that only have one armor jacket that they
wear all the time, don't own a helmet, and have a day-glo mohawk will be
spotted and easily identified. If your runners break into an installation
without doing everything they can to hide their identities, someone will do
everything they can to find them out.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 83
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:11:52 -0500
>>If a corp sent out everything it had against a runner team, there's would be
>>missing chunks of real estate the size of Alaska around the target area and
>>the runners wouldn't last one hour longer than the order went out. This
>>won't happen, of course.
>If a corps sends out even a single strike team after the runners (the only
>way to gain back their goodies), they'll pay through the nose. Any damage
>done will have to be paid when not on their own territory, they'll sure as
>hell pay for "civil unrest", injured or dead civilians...

All your corps and their operatives must be totally incompetent, then. To
me a corporate strike team would be at least at the level of a Desert Wars
fire team. I think they could handle a runner team pretty easily and very
quietly.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 84
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:11:42 -0500
Very few people seem to understand what I am trying to say on this subject,
so I am going to post all of my views and explanations of said views in this
single post. Hopefully this'll explain things better than dozens of
fractured posts have. If I missed anything, it's because I just woke up and
I'll answer it later.

First, megacorps are their own countries. They are extraterritorial.
Attacks made by one country's people on another's are considered acts of
war, espionage, or terrorism. If John Doe from Iraq sets off a bomb in
Central Park, then it's an act of terrorism. If he steals secrets from a
weapons designer, it's espionage. If he sends in a large group of heavily
armed soldiers, it's an act of war. Often acts of terrorism are really acts
of war, but they can't be proved as such.

Next, corps make billions of nuyen every day. They do have to account for
how said monies are spent, but they can be shuffled through the red tape
thoroughly enough to hide any evidence of wrongdoing. One million nuyen
would hardly be noticeable, let alone a few hundred thousand. And then they
would only be noticeable if the accountant was completely incompetent.
Hiding where money really goes is a tried and true tradition of governments
and corporations worldwide.

Next, as extraterritorial entities, megacorporations will have a viable
political presence in other extraterritorial entities (usually called
embassies). In case you haven't noticed, many countries bend over backwards
to bring a smile to even the tiniest of would-be allies. If the megacorps
want something, they can whisper a few sweet nothings in the UCAS's ear and
they'll get it. Guaranteed. Maybe it's that new painkiller that the UCAS
been wanting or the newest assault rifle in exchange for what the corp
wants, but that's the way business goes, it's not like you weren't going to
sell it to them anyway, it's just that you wanted to get everything possible
out of the deal.

Next, if you do commit a crime in one country, then flee to another, you are
under global jurisdiction, which means UN, Interpol, and/or the Corporate
Council (those guys up in space). If you are found, in any way, shape, or
form, you will be deported for trial. Why? Because nobody wants to upset
the balance of trade or mess up a perfectly good mexican stand-off. Who has
to find the criminal? Anyone can and since he's a wanted fugitive, he can
be held for bounty. So it isn't just Interpol or the country the criminal
ran to that looks, it could be any number of people.

Now, on why it is economically feasible to do everything within the corp's
means (and fitting the situation) if you are the subject of a terrorist act
("you" is _not_ used in a personal sense, so please stop seeing it as such,
it is used for the corp):

You will have lost something. Whether that is pride, information,
personnel, confidence, whatever, something will have been taken from you
during this act. So what do you do about it?

1) You can neutralize the use of whatever is stolen by an attack with your
own terrorists, perhaps doing damage along the way. Which creates a vicious
circle (which is pretty much the way things are).

2) You can put paid to the terrorists themselves. How this happens is up to
the corp (Aztechnology might do a public execution, while Lone Star might
put them in a maxsec prison for life). It may be public, it may be
completely hushed, it may be known by a certain group of people. The corp
will min/max the situation and use it to their best advantage based on
current circumstances.

3) You can forget about it and cut your losses. This will _ONLY_ happen if
whatever was lost is absolutely worthless to the corp and may not always
happen then.

Ok, now I know that these three things are the greater part of the debate,
so I'm going to go into more detail here on the how's and why's.

Is it worth it to a corp to pay a few hundred thousand to a deniable asset
to do #1 or #2? If the assets lost in the attack exceed the amount that
will be paid, then yes, it is worth it.

Is it worth it to publicize the fact that your rival corp got infiltrated?
You betcha. An anonymous phone call can cost your rival a huge amount of
money and most likely get you some in the deal. So not only did you nail
them with the run, but you also nailed them with bad publicity.

Is it worth it to send corporate assets (non-deniable) to perform #1 or #2?
Definitely not for #1. Possibly for #2. If you go through all the right
hoops, then you probably could send a strike team into another country for
the express purpose of ending that threat. Even better (and MUCH more
likely) is to "suggest" that the other entity use their resources to take
care of the problem. Nothing like a UN strike team to take care of a few
terrorists.

Now, I am going to talk about nuyen. Nuyen makes the SR-world go 'round.
Megacorps own most of that nuyen. So what exactly is the line where
benefits to you are going to cost more than they're worth?

Just because a runner team was paid 300K to nab a scientist from a rival
corp doesn't mean that scientist is worth 300K. He has been a member of the
rival corp, knows what they are working on, knows the project that he's been
working on, and he'll bring all of that knowledge to you while taking away
some of the ability to further that knowledge from the competitor. Corps
don't do projects for a few hundred thou. They deal in millions and
billions. The 300K run may well end up costing the corp billions of nuyen
while they try to continue the project without a key employee.

So is it worth it to bring back the employee? No, you know he's a traitor,
you know he'll probably try it again. Is it worth it to put a slug between
his ears or do that ritual sending from the "blood test" he had to take a
week ago? Definitely, the flow of nuyen will end on his last breath. Is it
worth it to take out the team that managed to get him out in the first
place? Quite possibly, yes.

Now why the last bit? Why is it worth it to "kill the messenger" instead of
going after the source? Because they know how to defeat your current
security measures. Because they can tell others. Because they might have
taken something extra along the way. Because they need to be taught a
lesson. If you let one go, they'll all think they can slide and your corp
will be the target of the month. If you nail them at your whim, then
they'll be a little more hesitant about taking a job to go after you. And
they'll want more pay, which means the rival will have to come up with more
to get the same job done.

Is it worth it to let this be known? It could be worth it to let the media
know that a prominent scientist was kidnapped from your facility and has
been spotted working in your rivals facility. May not have to lift a finger
after that, the authorities can handle it from there. It could be worth it
to make it known in some circles that the team that did the run was
eliminated, whether to scare off potential attacks or to build confidence
within the corp. It could be worth it to keep everything dead quiet, but
that's nearly impossible.

How exactly would one go about doing anything against a runner team? Get a
lock of hair from a member and do a ritual sending (all sorts of ways to do
this, could also get blood from a wound taken during the run). Sniper
bullet/arrow/spell from a rooftop/alley/window/vehicle/grassy-knoll works
well. Other runners work well. Set-ups are classic. Sabotage their
equipment/vehicles (a lot of runners like motorcycles which are easy to work
on). There are hundreds of different possibilities for this sort of action.
Maybe you just kill one and let the rest know. Or leave them all alive, but
scare them somehow (let them know that you collected blood or hair or
whatever and are watching them).

Corps need to be played like they are in 2057, not like they are in USA
1996. Many of the old restrictions are gone and that should be remembered.
The world has changed greatly, there's been plagues and wars like we've
never seen in our lives. Things have changed and the people changed with them.

You don't have to play this way, you don't have to care one bit about what
I've written. I do play this way, it is more realistic and gritty, less
heroic and earth-saving. It is what is fun to me. If it isn't fun for you
to worry about things that you've done in past runs, then that's your deal.
More power to you.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 85
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:11:58 -0500
>>>Sure, Ares might put several billion into security. However, they've got
>>>THOUSANDS, maybe millions, of sites to protect. It's not worth the
>>>expenditure.

>>Many times it will be worth the expenditure, it's not like the runners broke
>>in to steal some paperclips and a legal pad.

>Did you read the above? Would you really spend 50 million protecting a
>site that's worth 51 million?

Yes, I did. That's why I replied to it. If a site is worth 51 million,
then it is potentially worth 510 million or more. Is it worth it to have 50
million in security measures on a project potentially worth 10 times that?
Yes. Do you know what 50 million in security measures is? Would any runner
be stupid enough to try and get through 50 million nuyen worth of security?

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 86
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:12:01 -0500
>>No, they'd say: "The terrorists who infiltrated our site last week have been
>>handled. Now, could we get some coffee over here?". It's all in a days
>>work. Never mention that they were civilians (they weren't, they lacked
>>SINs). As far as the world knows, they didn't exist. Just more
>>unregistered trash rotting in a dumpster somewhere.

>Who says they lack SINs? Every runner I've played has had a SIN... in
>some cases, one of them was even real. In addition, even the SINless have
>rights in the UCAS, and the UCAS government drools over the possiblity of
>even a thin legal wedge to slam into the corps.

"Their ID's checked out fake. For all we know they could be French."

And do the SINless really have rights in the UCAS? They do in the USA, kind
of. This discussion came up before, I seem to remember and nobody could
point out that the SINless, officially nonexistant people in the UCAS had
any rights whatsoever aside from what the poster _thought_ they would have.
Which would be opinion. And I've made my stand on opinion plenty of times.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 87
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:12:07 -0500
>>>>Cost is minimal, shadow-assets are deniable, and
>>>>the shareholders know that it got taken care of, and quietly.
>>>If it's done quietly, how should the shareholders know?
>>Because shareholders are privvy to information that the general public is not.
>Hey! My character /is/ a shareholder in more then oppne false identities!
>I am really interested in the official statements of a corp, pet projects
>etc that come with holding (a few, OK) shares.

So you'll get info like "Our corp does many things. From building design to
pharmaceuticals. With our corp, you can't go wrong". Now if you buy up a
few hundred million in stock, you might be able to get some useful info. If
you can get a few hundred million worth of the stock from a current
stockholder (good luck).

>And YOUR plan it was to set up a meet with the runners to have 'em all executed
>by snipers (to cut losses to a minimum). By THAT time, your goodies will have
>grey hair :-)

I have thousands of plans, that's just one of them.

>>> They will have to pay for the revenge.
>>Sure, but the pay is a pittance to the corp and can be worth more than was
>>spent if handled right.
>Nonsense. Not even a hundred or so nuyen are "a pittance". You have to
explain
>every single nuyen, ad why you spent it, and why you didn't turn it into
>wins, and why you have /once again/ lived over your budget. Rich people are not
>rich because they spend their money, Corps even less so.

The art of burying expenses in reports is not lost on corporations or
governments. If you can't hide a few hundred thousand in a quarterly report
over hundreds of billions of nuyen, then you have no business doing any
accounting for the corporation. In fact, if you can't hide millions in the
shuffle somewhere, you're useless.

Rich people get rich by spending their money. They buy things that grow in
value and become worth more. Often it is stock they buy. If they don't buy
anything they are just street people with large, unused bank accounts. If
they leave their money in a "normal" account at a bank (CD's, savings,
checking, whatever) they won't make near as much on it as they would by
purchasing stock and it won't be insured for the full amount (FDIC insures
up to 100,000 dollars currently). Ask some fairly rich people that you know
sometime what they do with their money (if you know any well enough, of
course). Most will say they invest. In what? Real estate and stocks,
mostly. Any that say they leave it in the bank are usually pretty dim or
inherited the cash and don't know what to do with it and are afraid of being
taken for it.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 88
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:12:10 -0500
>>Yep, that'll happen. Most likely the corp will attack it's rival in more
>>subtle means (e.g takeovers of subsidiaries, nailing the shadow assets --
>>your best team just died, now what do you do?

>Your best team just died? Big deal, they are shadowrunners! They are
>expendable. That's what they are for.

"Now we have to build a working relationship with another team and hope
they'll be as good as that last one was, or actually better because the last
group got killed. What? Nobody wants to run against that corp that killed
the other team for what we were paying the other team? How about double
that? A few takers, but they're newbies? Triple? There's a few veterans
interested that just don't like the corp, so I say we go with them."

>Now, if you were a corp-sponsored hit team, that's something else. Doing
>a pay-back strike at such a team would be worthwhile. But hitting the
>runners is like wanting to hit the gun that shot you, not the person who
>pulled the trigger.

More like breaking that hand that slapped you. That hand won't slap you
again and the otehr hand will be pretty wary of the consequences of slapping
you. A corp-sponsored hit-team would make short work of nearly any runner
team in a quiet and efficient manner (Desert Wars is just training for these
guys after all). So would a good shadowrunner team, though.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 89
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 12:13:48 -0600 (MDT)
Paul J. Adam wrote:
|
|Aztechnology doesn't hire runners: does its work in-house, according to
|the Aztlan book.

This sparked an idea (I had the dryer on :). Who would an AZ VP hire to
take care of an "in house" job? ShadowRunners of course.

Wouldn't this make for a fun adventure. A Johnson hires you to make a
strike against AZT. He provides passports, visas and security codes. When
you ask how he got all this he just smiles and says, "I know the right
people." When in fact he is one of the "right people".

Which kinda brings up another subject. I've seen lots of traffic on this
list concerning corp vs corp, but haven't seen any comments about nefarious
and evil people who hire runners to mess with a competitor within the same
corporation (ala Robocop).

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 90
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 13:34:39 -0500
>>Set up a run proposal, have snipers waiting, fire when ready. Cost? X
>>number of APDS rounds (where X represents the number of runners present).
>>Investigative work? The fixer handled that for you. Maybe drop a few
>>thousand his way to cover the burden on his cold black heart. Or hire
>>wetwork runners to get the team. Cost? Maybe 100,000 a head.

>And it wouldn't work on my team. First: the fixer wouldn't be able to get
>new clients (runners)... he double-crosses them.

Fixer knew nothing about a set-up. He was contacted through the regular
means and the contact made it through all the right hoops. Sure he may end
up getting screwed in the backlash, but what's the corp care?

> Second: my teams meet
>only in public places by preference, such as clubs and what-not. Turf
>they know. If they have to meet somewhere which could be an ambush, they
>get there early and secure the site.

So you meet at a club: astral nasties handle your mage when his anchored
barrier kicks in, friends in melee (if possible troll friends) beat you to a
pulp. You meet at a restaurant: poisoned food/drink, wait a couple hours.
You meet at a park: probably wouldn't do that, it's a wide, open space and
sniper territory. You meet at a bar: see the first two. You meet at a
mall: lots of places for mages to hide, snipers won't be there, but there's
also a lot of people, have to watch out for those "mall police".

>Any team which falls for that deserved it.

Just have to set it up right and any team will fall. Admittedly, what I am
describing is along the lines of a "killer GM". Corps just shouldn't be
messed with and forgotten about. Especially the Japanese corps (nothing
like insulting the honor of a corporate entity to get a price on your head).

>Oh, and besides, I've been trying to hit one of the mages in my team with
>snipers for AGES... a strong enough barrier spell can stop damn near
>anything.

Use a mage sniper. Or elementals/spirits. If it's a bullet barrier, use
arrows. Poisoning is still a fave.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 91
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 12:37:29 -0600 (MDT)
TopCat wrote:
|
|>>Mind Probe gives all the little details.
|
|>No it doesn't... Mind Probe only give you what the subject KNOWS. If the
|>subject really didn't see enough to give any good information, then Mind
|>Probe won't help out.
|
|"Three or more successes allow the magician to enter the target's
|subconcious" (pg. 153, SRII)
|
|Which will give you information on what really happened. The detection
|spell table on pg. 152 states that with 4 successes you will get accurate
|and detailed information. Now, let's make the subject voluntary. He
|suppresses his willpower down to one, the mage casts his mind probe with @**
|dice or more. He gets 8 successes. Wow. I'd say that'd give you pretty
|much anything you'd want.

The human mind is not the greatest way to store information. Three or more
successes will allow access to everything that the target has remembered,
which is not necessarily what really happened.

First your eyes see something, then your brain perceives that information,
you react to that perception, and then you remember what's important to
you. It works just fine for survival, but sucks for retaining specific
information.

There is another philosophy of thought (which I do not subscribe to).
Your subconscious retains everything that has ever happened to you in your
life, in exquisite detail. Methods such as hypnosis, or in this case Mind
Probe, can bring out that stored information.

I can see this happening with traumatic events, but not everyday life. And
even then I believe that perception won't always equal reality (such as it
is :).

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 92
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:16:24 +0100
In message <9605210603.AC25157@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>Many people replied along this line and I have the same exact answer for
>each and every one of them. Mind Probe. Corps would be more than willing
>to do this to find out the identity of the runners, don't you think? Cheap,
>effective, and perhaps the best use of mages that corporations have. They'd
>actually be seeing the runners as the guard saw them instead of listening to
>his drivel. Also, why not put miniaturized cameras on sec-guards helmets.
>We can do that today and I'd guess they've gotten smaller, cheaper, and more
>durable by 2057. Smile for the camera, shadowboy.

Sure. The raider was blonde, tanned, blue-eyed, dressed like...

With those cameras and witnesses, you don't go there looking like
yourself, do you?

>No, they'd say: "The terrorists who infiltrated our site last week have been
>handled. Now, could we get some coffee over here?". It's all in a days
>work. Never mention that they were civilians (they weren't, they lacked
>SINs). As far as the world knows, they didn't exist. Just more
>unregistered trash rotting in a dumpster somewhere.

Are you sure they're SINless and unregistered? And even SINless people
are probationary citizens with some rights, like you don't casually kill
them without some consequences. And - the real kicker - you *are* sure
you killed the right people... "Buttle? Buttle? I'm sorry. The warrant
was issued in the name of *Tuttle*. There's been a slight mistake."

"Mr Chairman, can you confirm it is corporate policy to execute UCAS
citizens, in UCAS jurisdiction, without trial and without liaison with
the proper authorities?"

Could be an embarrasing AGM...

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 93
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:44:21 +0100
>>You have the same team working for you over and over and nobody's going
>>to notice? :)
>
>Sure they'll notice. But they'd also notice that you work for corp X, corp
>Y, and corp Z. If any of those finds out that you've done runs on
>themselves, you're in big trouble.

Facts of life. You work for your fixer: how the hell are you meant to
know, before the fact, who the job was for? You might be able to guess,
or you might guess wrong. The only way round this is to formally
affilate to one corporation, which rather destroys the point of using
deniable assets.

>Mind Probe gives all the little details.

That the target saw. Disguise, Fashion, Makeover, Physical Mask, False
Memory...

>>Also, how are you putting this about? "Our strike team killed six
>>shadowrunners last night who had..."
>>"You murdered six civilians in UCAS jurisdiction?"
>>"No, we killed six fugitives-"
>>"You unlawfully executed six people without trial?"
>
>Anonymous Shadowland BBS posting: The team that did job X was wiped out to
>the last man last night.

Right between "By Elvis Presley" and under "No we weren't". :)

>Watcher spirit to any surviving team members: We're watching you.

>Board meeting: The problem we had last week was taken care of.
>
>Lone Star: We were minding our own business when these ruffians tried to
>attack us. Lucky for us, some unknown benefactor shot them all before they
>could hurt us. They also had this big bag of credsticks with them...

>Also, runners are rarely citizens. You have to have a SIN to be a citizen.
>They're just a bunch of corpses rotting in a dumpster out in the barrens
>that nobody ever saw get put there and nobody is going to go near.

'Scuse me? Why would runners not have SINs, at least excellent fake
ones? You want to be able to move relatively freely, you need a SIN. You
need to be able to blend in uptown, you need a SIN that can stand some
scrutiny.

That means your body is a citizen's corpse and the corporation has to be
a little careful. And a lot of people - the UCAS and all the other
corporations - are just begging for you to slip once, because then you
are sponsoring terrorism outside your jurisdiction.


Get your assasins caught and you're in big trouble.
Hit the wrong target and you're in enormous trouble.
Miss the target, and they may start hitting you hard to even the score.
Van bombs work well in these situations. Indiscriminate, expensive
damage to the corporation, accompanied by messages to the Board "Try and
kill me again, and it gets even more expensive".

Slot a chemistry chip and start cooking nerve agent, then use that on
your runs: flood the air conditioning with VX, permanently contaminate
the entire building and kill everyone inside. What's to lose? The corp
will hunt and kill you anyway, better make sure there are no witnesses.

Corporations have large numbers of fixed assets and lots of people.
Shadowrunners make good terrorists when the mood takes them. Terrorism
is very hard to stop: it's much harder to deal with someone who merely
wants destruction, than it is someone who's come to extract an item or
person intact. It pays to avoid pushing your enemies into that corner.

>>If you don't publicise, your investors don't find out and you might as
>>well not have bothered. If you do, you have some very tricky explaining
>>to do. Extraterritoriality cuts both ways.
>
>They have more confidence without ever knowing what happened. They find out
>that the top-level owners are buying up more, so the little guys buy more
>too on the assumption that the big guys know something that they don't.

Why would killing a couple of small-time runners reach the ears of the
top-level investors? Even if it did... "We killed those runners, sir."
"Have we managed to improve security?"
"Uh... well, another team penetrated the Green Lake site... but we're
going to kill them too. Could you authorise another quarter-million for
the intel gathering and a hundred grand for the assassins?"

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted doesn't earn a
return. It doesn't even stop people running against you, because some
will get away. It costs you money for no profit.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 94
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:44:21 +0100
>>You have the same team working for you over and over and nobody's going
>>to notice? :)
>
>Sure they'll notice. But they'd also notice that you work for corp X, corp
>Y, and corp Z. If any of those finds out that you've done runs on
>themselves, you're in big trouble.

Facts of life. You work for your fixer: how the hell are you meant to
know, before the fact, who the job was for? You might be able to guess,
or you might guess wrong. The only way round this is to formally
affilate to one corporation, which rather destroys the point of using
deniable assets.

>Mind Probe gives all the little details.

That the target saw. Disguise, Fashion, Makeover, Physical Mask, False
Memory...

>>Also, how are you putting this about? "Our strike team killed six
>>shadowrunners last night who had..."
>>"You murdered six civilians in UCAS jurisdiction?"
>>"No, we killed six fugitives-"
>>"You unlawfully executed six people without trial?"
>
>Anonymous Shadowland BBS posting: The team that did job X was wiped out to
>the last man last night.

Right between "By Elvis Presley" and under "No we weren't". :)

>Watcher spirit to any surviving team members: We're watching you.

>Board meeting: The problem we had last week was taken care of.
>
>Lone Star: We were minding our own business when these ruffians tried to
>attack us. Lucky for us, some unknown benefactor shot them all before they
>could hurt us. They also had this big bag of credsticks with them...

>Also, runners are rarely citizens. You have to have a SIN to be a citizen.
>They're just a bunch of corpses rotting in a dumpster out in the barrens
>that nobody ever saw get put there and nobody is going to go near.

'Scuse me? Why would runners not have SINs, at least excellent fake
ones? You want to be able to move relatively freely, you need a SIN. You
need to be able to blend in uptown, you need a SIN that can stand some
scrutiny.

That means your body is a citizen's corpse and the corporation has to be
a little careful. And a lot of people - the UCAS and all the other
corporations - are just begging for you to slip once, because then you
are sponsoring terrorism outside your jurisdiction.


Get your assasins caught and you're in big trouble.
Hit the wrong target and you're in enormous trouble.
Miss the target, and they may start hitting you hard to even the score.
Van bombs work well in these situations. Indiscriminate, expensive
damage to the corporation, accompanied by messages to the Board "Try and
kill me again, and it gets even more expensive".

Slot a chemistry chip and start cooking nerve agent, then use that on
your runs: flood the air conditioning with VX, permanently contaminate
the entire building and kill everyone inside. What's to lose? The corp
will hunt and kill you anyway, better make sure there are no witnesses.

Corporations have large numbers of fixed assets and lots of people.
Shadowrunners make good terrorists when the mood takes them. Terrorism
is very hard to stop: it's much harder to deal with someone who merely
wants destruction, than it is someone who's come to extract an item or
person intact. It pays to avoid pushing your enemies into that corner.

>>If you don't publicise, your investors don't find out and you might as
>>well not have bothered. If you do, you have some very tricky explaining
>>to do. Extraterritoriality cuts both ways.
>
>They have more confidence without ever knowing what happened. They find out
>that the top-level owners are buying up more, so the little guys buy more
>too on the assumption that the big guys know something that they don't.

Why would killing a couple of small-time runners reach the ears of the
top-level investors? Even if it did... "We killed those runners, sir."
"Have we managed to improve security?"
"Uh... well, another team penetrated the Green Lake site... but we're
going to kill them too. Could you authorise another quarter-million for
the intel gathering and a hundred grand for the assassins?"

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted doesn't earn a
return. It doesn't even stop people running against you, because some
will get away. It costs you money for no profit.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 95
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:29:58 +0100
In message <9605210603.AB25157@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>Set up a run proposal, have snipers waiting, fire when ready. Cost? X
>number of APDS rounds (where X represents the number of runners present).
>Investigative work? The fixer handled that for you. Maybe drop a few
>thousand his way to cover the burden on his cold black heart. Or hire
>wetwork runners to get the team. Cost? Maybe 100,000 a head.

You have snipers outside Takuri's? Boy, that's going to make you
popular. "No, no, we're Fuchi Security. No, I can't show you any ID, I'm
here to execute a shadowrunner - erm, carry out a training exercise. Uh,
I left the permit for the rifle at home. No, Officer, they aren't cop-
killer bullets. Well, they are, but they're not for cops..."

There's a reason to hold meets at a quality place.

Also, who sets up this run? There's a fixer who is not going to be
happy. That fixer now has a rep of setting runners up to be killed. That
fixer may spread the word not to accept jobs from your corporation,
because fixers with repuations like that don't last long.

>Why wouldn't they work for you? You're the toughest act in town and if
>you've got the nuyen, you've got the team. Realistically anyway.

No, you don't. Your corp puts out word that it's hiring people, then
they get .308 headaches at the initial meeting. Not a safe prospect to w

>Only in an unrealistic campaign would this happen. A cyberpunk world is
>what I play in and what SR is based on. Cash is king and he with the most
>cash king above all. The fluffy usually end up dead, the smart get out
>while they still can, the dumb are coffin filler waiting for their turn. It
>isn't pretty or moral, it's dark and real. But this is how I play. You may
>want a cuddly world of morals and honor. That's your choice and I'll
>respect that.

What's one of the biggest problems trying to crack organisations like
the Mafia? Omerta. The old code of honour, "nobody talks". Having a code
of honour can help you a lot. Doing good deeds helps you a lot: those
squatters you buy food for make handy scouts. "Hey, Jase, these two
suits were scoping for you."

When one guy helps you out when he can and has a rep for honesty, and
someone else comes to you offering cash to sell your friend out, you ask
a few questions. Cash is king: but you need to eat tomorrow too. And
this new guy is a real hard-case. Is he really going to let you keep the
money, or will he kill you and take it back?

Ruthlessness is not always the best policy, especially long-term: if you
screw over everyone as hard as you can, they'll screw back: and there
are more of them than there are of you.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 96
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 23:38:01 +0100
In message <9605211811.AB22997@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>All your corps and their operatives must be totally incompetent, then. To
>me a corporate strike team would be at least at the level of a Desert Wars
>fire team. I think they could handle a runner team pretty easily and very
>quietly.

The skills involved in hunting a team of shadowrunners in "foreign turf"
in a city are very different from those you need for Desert Wars,
combined arms warfare in open desert.

Imagine the scene. "El-Tee, we got a sighting!"
"Roger that. Redleg, Redleg, this is Charlie Three Six, fire mission,
over..."

Well, you got those runners all right. Between the artillery and the
airstrike, there wasn't much left... of the runners, of the elementary
school, of the orphanage, of the hospital...

Very different skill sets. Also, you're exposing your elite troops to a
real high-risk environment. In this setting, isn't any runner or
wannabee with a shot at their backs going to take it? They could be
after *you*... if not today, then tomorrow. Kill them now, not later.

Can the British Army expect to send the SAS into corporate turf at whim?
Somehow I doubt it. Would we let them do that here? Not on your life.


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 97
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:27:27 +0100
In message <9605211811.AA22997@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>Very few people seem to understand what I am trying to say on this subject,
>so I am going to post all of my views and explanations of said views in this
>single post. Hopefully this'll explain things better than dozens of
>fractured posts have. If I missed anything, it's because I just woke up and
>I'll answer it later.
>
>Next, corps make billions of nuyen every day. They do have to account for
>how said monies are spent, but they can be shuffled through the red tape
>thoroughly enough to hide any evidence of wrongdoing. One million nuyen
>would hardly be noticeable, let alone a few hundred thousand. And then they
>would only be noticeable if the accountant was completely incompetent.
>Hiding where money really goes is a tried and true tradition of governments
>and corporations worldwide.

There is still the hard fact that money secreted in accounts is money
lost, not earning a return or paid as dividends. Efficiency pays off. A
company that doesn't do this makes more profit than one who does: for
every newyen silted away to boost security or earn extra money, there
will be dozens gone into personal accounts, "travel expenses",
"miscellaneous disbursements"...

>Next, as extraterritorial entities, megacorporations will have a viable
>political presence in other extraterritorial entities (usually called
>embassies). In case you haven't noticed, many countries bend over backwards
>to bring a smile to even the tiniest of would-be allies. If the megacorps
>want something, they can whisper a few sweet nothings in the UCAS's ear and
>they'll get it. Guaranteed. Maybe it's that new painkiller that the UCAS
>been wanting or the newest assault rifle in exchange for what the corp
>wants, but that's the way business goes, it's not like you weren't going to
>sell it to them anyway, it's just that you wanted to get everything possible
>out of the deal.

Cuts both ways, of course. And Corp Y is offering better terms this
time. There are a lot of corporations, and they all compete rather hard,
and the UCAS has some leverage too. Governments are weak: not supine.
"You want *what*? I'm sorry, your competitor has a similar product and
is much less demanding..."

>Next, if you do commit a crime in one country, then flee to another, you are
>under global jurisdiction, which means UN, Interpol, and/or the Corporate
>Council (those guys up in space). If you are found, in any way, shape, or
>form, you will be deported for trial. Why? Because nobody wants to upset
>the balance of trade or mess up a perfectly good mexican stand-off. Who has
>to find the criminal? Anyone can and since he's a wanted fugitive, he can
>be held for bounty. So it isn't just Interpol or the country the criminal
>ran to that looks, it could be any number of people.

Not true at all. Read Corporate Shadowfiles. Corps hide their criminals
routinely. "Insufficient evidence for extradition." "Trial would be
prejudiced by publicity". "We say he's not guilty."

>Is it worth it to publicize the fact that your rival corp got infiltrated?
>You betcha. An anonymous phone call can cost your rival a huge amount of
>money and most likely get you some in the deal. So not only did you nail
>them with the run, but you also nailed them with bad publicity.

All depends. "We leaked a story about the "theft" of a key project a
while ago. Played the bear market on the shares, sold long when they
dropped and made a *fortune*, but it was justified under "security
considerations" - because the stock recovered when we proved the story
false. Of course we warned our major investors. The small guys? Too bad,
them's the breaks."

Now you make an anonymous call. The reporter says "Sorry, pal, we ran
that two months ago and looked stupid. We ain't going to go with it
unless you have some proof." Okay, the National Enquirer will run it,
between this week's Elvis sightings and the woman who gave birth to an
aubergine. Credible, sure.

News management is a key issue. Besides... "Eddie? That story about the
Roehampton kidnap. Eddie, my boss doesn't think that story is hard data.
We do have a big news release coming, a major exclusive, but we would
only want to give it to a friend. Are you our friend, Eddie? You
wouldn't run a big story based on an anonymous tipoff..."

>Is it worth it to send corporate assets (non-deniable) to perform #1 or #2?
>Definitely not for #1. Possibly for #2. If you go through all the right
>hoops, then you probably could send a strike team into another country for
>the express purpose of ending that threat. Even better (and MUCH more
>likely) is to "suggest" that the other entity use their resources to take
>care of the problem. Nothing like a UN strike team to take care of a few
>terrorists.

Why would the UN want to? Would a corporation even be a member? This,
given the way most corps behave, is like Iraq asking the UN to seize
"American terrorists" starting with Colin Powell :)

As for "other organisations", Lone Star maybe. The UCAS? Why the hell
would the UCAS have any net interest in helping a corporation? No votes,
no tax revenue, lots of problems with toxic emissions and labour laws,
and their security squads occasionally murdering people. Yep, just the
guys we want to help.

Okay, we offer concessions. That means money. More money, more costs,
either short-term or long-term.

>Now why the last bit? Why is it worth it to "kill the messenger" instead of
>going after the source? Because they know how to defeat your current
>security measures. Because they can tell others. Because they might have
>taken something extra along the way. Because they need to be taught a
>lesson. If you let one go, they'll all think they can slide and your corp
>will be the target of the month. If you nail them at your whim, then
>they'll be a little more hesitant about taking a job to go after you. And
>they'll want more pay, which means the rival will have to come up with more
>to get the same job done.

You're assuming you can identify the runners, and further assuming that
(a) you can take them out and (b) do so without further complication.

What if I plant evidence, a few days after the run, that a rival runner
did my hit? I might even get paid twice: once for the job, again to take
the patsy out :) The corporation doesn't get vengeance, the runners who
actually did the job are still free, and you just made a set of enemies.

Trying to find "the runner who hit us last week" is neither cheap nor
easy. There's cost one. Then you send a team out to get them: that needs
time, and your elite teams are expensive. You have to insert them
quietly enough that the target isn't spooked and nobody in his
neighbourhood tips him or her off (a hint - every gang member or
squatter is a potential sentry), make the hit - easy if everything
works, very hard if your target is alerted - and extract.

Lose one man, and your cost goes right up.

Miss, hit the wrong person, or get team-members captured, and you have a
lot of explaining to do. Why are your heavily-armed soldiers in the UCAS
without permission? "Corporate death squads roam city!" bellow the
screamsheets. Yes, it happens all the time, but nobody gets proof.

And if your target escapes the first attempt - as PC runners are prone
to do - then you may run into *big* problems. Terrorism is relatively
easy when you're a runner. The corp has an airline? A few fully-loaded
929s crash, and a terrorist claims responsibility. There goes that
airline's profitability, here come some massive lawsuits from the
famililes of the dead.

Vengeance is poor business. Sending your elite troops out into hostile
territory means your competitors have a cast-iron opportunity to
eliminate your crack soldiers. "Aztechnology send out two squads of
Leopards. Take them out."

Sending out runners... they go out and don't come back. Someone claims
their target killed them all. Others say your company had them executed.
Someone else says it was an ambush and they never had a chance.

Next time you want to hire, it's more expensive. Cuts both ways, doesn't
it?

>Is it worth it to let this be known? It could be worth it to let the media
>know that a prominent scientist was kidnapped from your facility and has
>been spotted working in your rivals facility. May not have to lift a finger
>after that, the authorities can handle it from there. It could be worth it
>to make it known in some circles that the team that did the run was
>eliminated, whether to scare off potential attacks or to build confidence
>within the corp. It could be worth it to keep everything dead quiet, but
>that's nearly impossible.

Why would "the authorities" do anything? "The authorities" for that
jurisdiction are the people who paid to "renegotiate his contract of
employment". The runners are in an area outside your control and all you
can do is issue a request for their extradition, which will be used to
trade for any outstanding warrants for your people.

>Corps need to be played like they are in 2057, not like they are in USA
>1996. Many of the old restrictions are gone and that should be remembered.
>The world has changed greatly, there's been plagues and wars like we've
>never seen in our lives. Things have changed and the people changed with them.

Some corps do this... It makes it more expensive to run against them. It
means there's a cachet to having done so and survived: it's a fast
ticket to reputatiton. The hottest youngsters want to play on
Aztechnology's lawn :) That can be a problem. You evolve runners fast,
and you are dealing with those who have talent, little to lose, no
reason for any restraint, and a loose grasp on reality. Pretty
dangerous.

Other corporations keep their security inside the fence. It's very hard
to carry out a run against them, and they go all-out to stop you.
Succeed and get away, and unless you were careless, brutal or messy, you
walk. This time. No wasted effort hunting down shadow assets: you even
employ them, so you can build a file on them, so if you *do* need to
reel them in you can do so. But because, for the same amout of money,
you have more men manning the walls, the runners get in less often.
*That* is the aim of security.

You then have a lot of people who know they're walking around on a
degree of sufferance. When you say, quietly and firmly, that a certain
team has crossed the line and you will pay to have them delivered for
questioning, you'll get a much more positive response. "This clears us,
right?" says the guy who delivers your quarry. If your rep is for
killing runners left, right and centre, runners worry about living long
enough to spend the paycheck and decide to give this one a miss.

>You don't have to play this way, you don't have to care one bit about what
>I've written. I do play this way, it is more realistic and gritty, less
>heroic and earth-saving. It is what is fun to me. If it isn't fun for you
>to worry about things that you've done in past runs, then that's your deal.
>More power to you.

We prefer it being a little unusual for the past to leap out at you.
Otherwise, paranoia becomes routine and boring. In playing terms, having
death squads in the woodwork as the epilogue to two out of three runs
gets kind of dull.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 98
From: cobaltblue@********.net
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 21:03:28 PDT
On Tue, 21 May 1996 10:51:48 -0500 Mike Broadwater wrote:

(snipped buncha stuff)
>Uh, actually, no I'm not sure. Thats how I thought it worked, but maybe
>not. I figure since the UCAS gov't can't investigate what goes on inside an
>Ares compound, it's mostly a moot point. But maybe not. Unfortunately, the
>only way I can think to solve this is if I read "Corp. Shadowfiles" again.
>I guess this is karma getting back at me.


In Corp Profiles, pgs. 20-21, it does say pretty specifically that LS or reps from any
other corp cannot enter grounds of another corp which has extra-t status, and may not
attempt to arrest or capture them in any legal sense. They must apply for extradition, as
though the perps had fled to their embassy.Pg 22 also talks about extra-t physical
limits.

cobaltblue@********.net

Rod Schmidt
Ft. Bragg, NC
Message no. 99
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:39:39 +0100
>>There is the corollary, as it tends to game out. "This runner stole our
>>molecular biologist. Then you sent an eight-man team after him, net
>>worth of about three million including training and cyber, and none of
>>them came back. Then you spend another two million in intelligence
>>gathering and shadow teams, with no reported result. And you're saying
>>you want *another* budgetary extension to continue the pursuit?"
>
>They sent the wrong team for the job then. You could dump nuyen directly
>into shadowrunners and have that team wiped out before they knew what hit
>them. Maybe even pay them off in your own product (which you make for 5% of
>what the market bears). Cost is minimal, shadow-assets are deniable, and
>the shareholders know that it got taken care of, and quietly.

A 95% markup? In a competitive market? You jest, surely. And taking out
a properly cautious shadowrunner, while far from impossible, is still
far from a trivial operation, because this is an occupational hazard.

>Corps will also gauge the abilities of the team based on the extraction.
>With the way secsystems are now, you have to be damned good to get in and
>out with minimal casualties and the biologist. So the corp will put out a
>team that is better than damned good to do the job. They might not do it
>immediately, but they might do it a week from now or later.

More like months. How many teams of that calibre are around? You have to
hire carefully enough the quarry doesn't hear. Handle it in-house? You
want a section of troops at least. Your military is typically only a
company or battalion: nine or twenty-seven sections, of whom only half
to a third will be available: your men need leave, your men need to
train. You just tied up twenty per cent or more of your corporation's
military might. Better hope that's a short hunt and you don't take any
losses.

Aztlan has the resources. Not many other corporations do. Remember, this
is a pure infantry work, operating with none of the usual support. Can't
call up mortar fire on someone else's urban area, unless you want the
Metroplex Guard practicing FIBUA in your headquarters before sundown.

>It might be cheap, it might be expensive. It all depends on when the corp
>does what it does and what the corp does it with. Three guys with sniper
>rifles can take out a team in less than 10 seconds and may never be noticed
>by anyone. Cheap. Ten cyberzombies loaded to the gills with guns blazing
>will take out the runners, but there'll be a hefty price. Corps aren't
>stupid and won't throw away anything. They will min/max a situation and
>come out with the best solution for the price.

Three guys with sniper rifles attract attention. Sniper rifles are
expensive and highly illegal, and the cops will shoot first and ask
questions later. The three guys have to find a spot and wait for their
targets, and if the target follows a detectable and predictable routine
either they're stupid, or it's a trap. Meanwhile there's an increasing
risk you'll be spotted, detected, compromised, attacked... "Hey!" says a
local gang member to his boss. "I saw these three snipers on the roof of
1630, they had some real wizzer gear, we could go get it!" Win or lose,
you're compromised, and your target may be alerted.

I don't cut runners much slack on the street, but it's a very hard place
for corporate operations too.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 100
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:01:39 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 22 May 1996, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> A 95% markup? In a competitive market?

Ummm, Paul? Do you know much about buisiness? Do you know what kind of
markup there is on most of the products you buy today? You buy a pair of
Nike shoes for about $100, right? Do you know what it costs Nike to build
said shoes? Yes, about $5. On most of your clothing you haveabout 150%
mark up, on jewellery closer to 250%. Is the afore mentioned 95%
unrealistic? Yes,but on the conservative side.

My 2 bob.
The ROO-MAN.
Via his wife.
Message no. 101
From: Joe Atkins <joe@****.internetwis.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 23:42:15 -0500
Pretty soon I beleive that every message posted to ShadowRN
will have the subject Re:Killing in Shadowrun...
Message no. 102
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:50:13 +0200
At 20:11 Uhr 21.05.96, TopCat wrote:
>All your corps and their operatives must be totally incompetent, then. To
>me a corporate strike team would be at least at the level of a Desert Wars
>fire team. I think they could handle a runner team pretty easily and very
>quietly.
Nonsense.

You don't have Corp War veterans in each and any facility, you can't let
such values rot in guard duty.
And of course you'll be fined for the colleteral damage, even when the criminals,
err, Shadowrunners shot a civilian, the corp'll pay. They were off their
(extraterritorial) grounds.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 103
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:50:29 +0200
At 20:11 Uhr 21.05.96, TopCat wrote:
[snip and due to TC's policy of not telling us I don't know who wrote
this:]
>>Did you read the above? Would you really spend 50 million protecting a
>>site that's worth 51 million?

>Yes, I did. That's why I replied to it. If a site is worth 51 million,
>then it is potentially worth 510 million or more. Is it worth it to have 50
>million in security measures on a project potentially worth 10 times that?
>Yes. Do you know what 50 million in security measures is? Would any runner
>be stupid enough to try and get through 50 million nuyen worth of security?
I'd like to agree or discuss, but gotta admit: I don't understand.
Would you please explain what you mean, in more easy words, for us not-quite-so-
elaborate-in-english ? Thanx.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 104
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:50:24 +0200
At 20:11 Uhr 21.05.96, TopCat wrote:
[snip]
>Next, I'll discuss cameras. With technology as advanced as it is in 2057,
>from two camera angels you could create a three-dimensional to-scale replica
>of the runners. Admittedly, if they are all wearing helmets and baggy
>clothes, then it'll be hard to get exact info on them.
Right so far, on both points.

>If those helmets
>have a faceplate, you can at least get eyes and skin tone, probably some
>facial structure, nose, and maybe even mouth and chin. If the faceplate is
>one-way, then you won't.
It need not to be one way. Have you ever seen a helmet with faceplate
from, say, about 2 meters away? You can't make out details because the
plate will refect... and "Yes, the intruder DID have a nose" isn't what
I'd call informative... :-)

>If there is no faceplate, then things get easier.
Ah, if a runner doesn't use face masks (like these motorcycle masks you
can see on almost all demonstrations nowadays :-( ) they're hosed, and
deserve it!
We agree (again... huh?)

>If the clothing worn is tight-fitting or normal, then you can get an
>accurate representation of height/weight/build.
But the runners will surely use armored clothing? With lots of pockets?
For the ammo?

>So from two camera angles
>I've now produced approximate replicas of every one of the runners, I'll
>know what weapons they used and what equip they carried. I might even know
>what they look like or have some idea of what they look like.
... erm ... you have? Maybe you _could_ have an idea... with stupid runners.

>If your runners break into an installation
>without doing everything they can to hide their identities, someone will do
>everything they can to find them out.
If you say "someone COULD do everything..." we could agree again.
When I started wondering why I kept agreeing to you all of a sudden,
I noticed: This was NOT what we were discussing about.
Noone ever discussud or disputed it could be possible to identify stupid runners
via security cameras. You can do this when all people on site are alive, or when
they're dead.
This has NOTHING to do with the threa{d|t} "Killing as neccessary to hide
one from detection"... stop, it has... it shows there is no reason to kill,
since you can't hop to detect each and any mini-sized camera...
Shot ya own foot, eh? :-)

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 105
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 18:07:09 +1030
>Which will give you information on what really happened. The detection
>spell table on pg. 152 states that with 4 successes you will get accurate
>and detailed information. Now, let's make the subject voluntary. He
>suppresses his willpower down to one, the mage casts his mind probe with @**
>dice or more. He gets 8 successes. Wow. I'd say that'd give you pretty
>much anything you'd want.

Interesting study on hypnotic recall... This guy put someone under
hypnosis, and got a recollection of the subject's eighth birthday (which
happened 30 odd years before). But he couldn't get a recollection of the
day afterwards. Why? Because human memory is NOT like a camera. You do
not get automatic recall of events. There is strong evidence to suggest
that if an event is stored in long-term memory, then it will not go away
(subject to damage), but there's that limit of only 7-9 items in
short-term memory, remember.

Sheesh... suppressing your Willpower if you're voluntary? I might go
around casting Control Thoughts before the Mana bolts, next time. That's
not possible.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 106
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 18:07:22 +1030
>And do the SINless really have rights in the UCAS? They do in the USA, kind
>of. This discussion came up before, I seem to remember and nobody could
>point out that the SINless, officially nonexistant people in the UCAS had
>any rights whatsoever aside from what the poster _thought_ they would have.
>Which would be opinion. And I've made my stand on opinion plenty of times.

*shrug* The UCAS and CAS have constitions based on the old US and
Canadian constitutions. This means the SINless have legal rights. Now,
the guv'mint doesn't usually give a frag about those rights, but they DO
look for any excuse to frag the corps over.

Besides, it doesn't look good in the media, and it's an election year.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 107
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 18:07:29 +1030
>The key to the cameras is the fact that the runners have covered themselves
>up a great deal. Those runners that only have one armor jacket that they
>wear all the time, don't own a helmet, and have a day-glo mohawk will be
>spotted and easily identified. If your runners break into an installation
>without doing everything they can to hide their identities, someone will do
>everything they can to find them out.

Of course... but such a team is NOT a quality runner team. It's second
string at best, and aren't going to live long, anyway.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 108
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 18:07:35 +1030
>"Now we have to build a working relationship with another team and hope
>they'll be as good as that last one was, or actually better because the last
>group got killed. What? Nobody wants to run against that corp that killed
>the other team for what we were paying the other team? How about double
>that? A few takers, but they're newbies? Triple? There's a few veterans
>interested that just don't like the corp, so I say we go with them."

But the corps DON'T build working relationships... for long term,
reliable teams, they have their own, superior, forces. For short term
stuff, they hire runners. The whole point of using runners isn't just
"plausible deniability", it's about not leaving a trail. If a running
team regularly works for the same corp, they have that trail behind them.
So what's the point?


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 109
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 18:07:42 +1030
>Yes, I did. That's why I replied to it. If a site is worth 51 million,
>then it is potentially worth 510 million or more. Is it worth it to have 50
>million in security measures on a project potentially worth 10 times that?
>Yes. Do you know what 50 million in security measures is? Would any runner
>be stupid enough to try and get through 50 million nuyen worth of security?

I costed this in "Corp Security Handbook" one day... consider these
things:

Solid magical security can cost upwards over 150,000 Y a _week_. That's
only a handful of decent strength wards, BTW, let alone the cost of the
mages, and the elemental backup. Matrix security is upwards of 20
million. A guard force of about 20 people will cost you, in equipment,
salaries, and training, over 10 million a year. Heck, we haven't even hit
the cost of the walls, gates, sensors, and drones, yet.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 110
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 18:07:49 +1030
>First, megacorps are their own countries. They are extraterritorial.
>Attacks made by one country's people on another's are considered acts of
>war, espionage, or terrorism. If John Doe from Iraq sets off a bomb in
>Central Park, then it's an act of terrorism. If he steals secrets from a
>weapons designer, it's espionage. If he sends in a large group of heavily
>armed soldiers, it's an act of war. Often acts of terrorism are really acts
>of war, but they can't be proved as such.

Yeah, of course... Now, ask yourself this: A country sends a fighter
strike in at you. AFTER the fighters get away, what do you do? Hit the
country back, or go down and destroy the fighters that went into your
territory?

>Next, corps make billions of nuyen every day. They do have to account for
>how said monies are spent, but they can be shuffled through the red tape
>thoroughly enough to hide any evidence of wrongdoing. One million nuyen
>would hardly be noticeable, let alone a few hundred thousand. And then they
>would only be noticeable if the accountant was completely incompetent.
>Hiding where money really goes is a tried and true tradition of governments
>and corporations worldwide.

Yeah, but it's not hidden from everyone... I can guarrentee you that if
you, a high-ranking member of a megacorp, started shuffling the odd
hundred-thou to the side without the higher-up's knowledge, you are
looking at early retirement with a 9mm redundancy package.

>Next, if you do commit a crime in one country, then flee to another, you are
>under global jurisdiction, which means UN, Interpol, and/or the Corporate
>Council (those guys up in space). If you are found, in any way, shape, or
>form, you will be deported for trial. Why? Because nobody wants to upset
>the balance of trade or mess up a perfectly good mexican stand-off. Who has
>to find the criminal? Anyone can and since he's a wanted fugitive, he can
>be held for bounty. So it isn't just Interpol or the country the criminal
>ran to that looks, it could be any number of people.

Umm... BZZZZZTTTTT!!!!!! :)
Interpol works under a treaty organisation. It only has jurisdiciton over
crimes committed within treaty countries, by treaty country citizens, and
IF the alleged perpertrator is in a treaty country. The UN doesn't have a
criminal-law enforcement branch, relying instead on Interpol. And the
Corporate Council is concerned only with how the corps behave, and they
do NOT sanction the destruction of assets. No corp has a deadlock on the
CC, and the other corps like to frag each other over to much to ignore it.

Basically, if you commit a crime in corp-town, then the only people you
have to worry about is that corp. No-one else is going to worry about you
for that incident.



--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 111
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 18:08:03 +1030
>>If a corps sends out even a single strike team after the runners (the only
>>way to gain back their goodies), they'll pay through the nose. Any damage
>>done will have to be paid when not on their own territory, they'll sure as
>>hell pay for "civil unrest", injured or dead civilians...
>All your corps and their operatives must be totally incompetent, then. To
>me a corporate strike team would be at least at the level of a Desert Wars
>fire team. I think they could handle a runner team pretty easily and very
>quietly.

Desert War strike teams? Including the armour and artillery support? Too
right you'll pay through the nose... Sure, they could handle a runner
team (but I think a competent team could get away), but they 'll do so
much incidental damage that the bill will be through the roof!


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 112
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 18:21:04 +1030
>Ummm, Paul? Do you know much about buisiness? Do you know what kind of
>markup there is on most of the products you buy today? You buy a pair of
>Nike shoes for about $100, right? Do you know what it costs Nike to build
>said shoes? Yes, about $5. On most of your clothing you haveabout 150%
>mark up, on jewellery closer to 250%. Is the afore mentioned 95%
>unrealistic? Yes,but on the conservative side.

Yeah, but that's consumer goods... at the high-end scale, competition is
a lot tougher. You're paying for the brand name with Nike. With Wired 2,
you're paying for quality, and if you put a massive markup on your goods,
then someone will produce a better product, sell it for less, and take
your market share.

Consumers are idiots about buying things. But when you're buying dozens
or hundreds of items at 200K each, you do your market research, and get
value for your money.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 113
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 18:20:48 +1030
>>And it wouldn't work on my team. First: the fixer wouldn't be able to get
>>new clients (runners)... he double-crosses them.
>
>Fixer knew nothing about a set-up. He was contacted through the regular
>means and the contact made it through all the right hoops. Sure he may end
>up getting screwed in the backlash, but what's the corp care?

But that's even worse... the fixer will know he got fragged over, and
he'll pass the word around. Soon, NO fixer will take the case. Not out of
solidarity... out of fear that they'll be fragged over as well.

>> Second: my teams meet
>>only in public places by preference, such as clubs and what-not. Turf
>>they know. If they have to meet somewhere which could be an ambush, they
>>get there early and secure the site.
>
>So you meet at a club: astral nasties handle your mage when his anchored
>barrier kicks in, friends in melee (if possible troll friends) beat you to a
>pulp.

Not bloody likely... any obvious presence like that, and you wouldn't
turn up. And twenty big heavy guys in a club in a low-use time count as
obvious, you know.

> You meet at a restaurant: poisoned food/drink, wait a couple hours.

Oh yeah... restaurants will just LOVE you going around poisoning their
food. What if there's a mixup in the orders? Not too smart... it'd be
better to release a slow-spreading, short-lived aerosol toxin.

>You meet at a park: probably wouldn't do that, it's a wide, open space and
>sniper territory. You meet at a bar: see the first two. You meet at a
>mall: lots of places for mages to hide, snipers won't be there, but there's
>also a lot of people, have to watch out for those "mall police".

Yeah... but odds are you'd lose the strike team to the local security and
the cops.

>Use a mage sniper. Or elementals/spirits. If it's a bullet barrier, use
>arrows. Poisoning is still a fave.

A mage can't bash through a sustained spell. Spirits aren't too much of a
problem for a prepared team. There's other types of barriers besides
bullets. An astral overwatch warns you of astral nasties. Poisoning takes
too long, and besides, there's those broad-spectrum immunties, don't you
know? And finally... No corp, not even Aztechnology, has all that many
magically active hit teams. And a corp mage isn't likely to be any more
powerful than a runner mage. Magic's the great leveler, after all. You
might end up losing your strike mage, whose training cost you in excess
of 5 million nuyen.



--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 114
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:19:52 +0100
TopCat said on 13:12/21 May 96...

> And do the SINless really have rights in the UCAS? They do in the USA, kind
> of. This discussion came up before, I seem to remember and nobody could
> point out that the SINless, officially nonexistant people in the UCAS had
> any rights whatsoever aside from what the poster _thought_ they would have.
> Which would be opinion. And I've made my stand on opinion plenty of times.

Anyone -- with a SIN or without one -- in the UCAS would have basic human
rights, such as the right not to be killed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kids, do try this at home!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 115
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:19:52 +0100
TopCat said on 13:34/21 May 96...

> >And it wouldn't work on my team. First: the fixer wouldn't be able to get
> >new clients (runners)... he double-crosses them.
>
> Fixer knew nothing about a set-up. He was contacted through the regular
> means and the contact made it through all the right hoops. Sure he may end
> up getting screwed in the backlash, but what's the corp care?

That wasn't the point. The point (as I understand it) was that the fixer
will now have a bad rep, and so will try to warn others of the corp in
question, in order to make people trust him again. The corp won't care if
the fixer's rep goes down the drain.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kids, do try this at home!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 116
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:59:36 -0500
>> Runners by the horde work for Aztechnology though. Why?
>> The cash is there. Only the bravest/most foolhardy even attempt to hit
>> them. Most of them don't make it back. They pull in an enormous amount of
>> money, don't have public stock (so they don't have to answer to anyone in
>> that realm for their actions),

>Yes they do actually. Have you checked the 'public relations' limit
>in corp shadowfiles, a corporation is limited to a maximum of asset
>rating equally double its public rating (although many people don't
>care some customers do care what the company they buy off does)
>Aztechnology is the smallest rating wise of the big 8 because its rep
>is 4 (due to that rule by fear methodology) they do ok in some ways
>but it does hurt them.

I don't own Corp Shadowfiles so I can't look that up. I only read through
it once and it was torture to make it all the way through.

On pg. 59 in the Aztlan book it says that "[Aztechnology] is a private
corporation, which means that it's shares don't trade on any stock markets".
It also says that shares of many of Aztechnology's subsidiaries are traded
on stock markets. So perhaps this low rating in CS is mainly due to the
fact that Aztechnology shares simply are not available for public purchase.
That would certainly keep the overall viewed value of Aztechnology low while
obscuring the actual net worth.

>Its also probably why they get away with so much, a lot of things can
>be hidden simply because they have managed to pursuade the public
>that Aztechnology is a corp and Atzlan is a nation, most folks assume
>the two cannot be the same even if one is in the pocket of the other
>which cover so many ills. That 'nationalisation' of corps in Atzlan
>was the government not us pleads Aztechnology (as they did the
>former!) the business world might not be fooled but they could not do
>much about it.

The nationalization of the other corps was the work of Aztechnology, they
did it blatantly and without regard to the wishes of the Corporate Court.
Eventually this (and other things) led to Operation Reciprocity. It almost
led to all-out war, but Aztechnology backed down and signed the Veracruz treaty.

>> Aztechnology rules through fear and the shadows do fear them.
>Yeah, so what you go visiting you go prepared for them or you dont go
>(or your silly in which case they have a nice alter or research lab
>waiting)

Which is kind of my point, few runners ever really are prepared to hit an
installation the likes of one of Aztechnology's holdings. If the players
don't actively describe to me what they do to cover their tracks during a
run, then I assume they do nothing of the sort. If they want to cast
physmask and other spells, then they better cast them and I better know
about it. If they want to alter their appearances heavily, then they better
tell me how they do so. If the players were to write down a standard set of
procedures that they do before every run, then I'd use those as the basis
(and it'd cut the time spent telling me everything they do at the start of a
run considerably). In short, I'll not "give" the players benefit of the
doubt. If you forgot that guns aren't allowed into the nightclub, but you
always carry yours, you won't be let in. If you don't wear a mask of some
sort, security will know exactly what you look like when you break in. If
you don't have a stealth skill, you aren't going to be real sneaky, no
matter how much you try to convince me you are. Mean gamemaster or realistic?

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 117
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:59:43 -0500
>>Many people replied along this line and I have the same exact answer for
>>each and every one of them. Mind Probe. Corps would be more than willing
>>to do this to find out the identity of the runners, don't you think? Cheap,
>>effective, and perhaps the best use of mages that corporations have. They'd
>>actually be seeing the runners as the guard saw them instead of listening to
>>his drivel. Also, why not put miniaturized cameras on sec-guards helmets.
>>We can do that today and I'd guess they've gotten smaller, cheaper, and more
>>durable by 2057. Smile for the camera, shadowboy.
>
>Sure. The raider was blonde, tanned, blue-eyed, dressed like...
>With those cameras and witnesses, you don't go there looking like
>yourself, do you?

You better tell the GM exactly what you do before the run or it's as good as
never having done anything at all. If I were the GM that'd be the case
anyway. Any single slip-up can hurt you and players are more than willing
to make a dozen or so over the course of a night ranging from tiny to
cataclysmic.

Personally, I hated performing runs on any installation. It was as good as
suicide and never once was it worth the pay.

>>No, they'd say: "The terrorists who infiltrated our site last week have been
>>handled. Now, could we get some coffee over here?". It's all in a days
>>work. Never mention that they were civilians (they weren't, they lacked
>>SINs). As far as the world knows, they didn't exist. Just more
>>unregistered trash rotting in a dumpster somewhere.

>Are you sure they're SINless and unregistered? And even SINless people
>are probationary citizens with some rights, like you don't casually kill
>them without some consequences. And - the real kicker - you *are* sure
>you killed the right people... "Buttle? Buttle? I'm sorry. The warrant
>was issued in the name of *Tuttle*. There's been a slight mistake."

You and others still seem to be thinking that I'd send in a team of
terminators to a packed restaurant, step up to the runners, say "In the name
of Fuchi you will now pay for your crimes", and mow them down with
supermachineguns. If I've come across that way, then I've been remiss in my
writing. Subtlety works wonders for runners, it works just as well for corps.

Who is smarter and more capable: a corporate team born and bred to do a job
or a shadowrunner team that's lived the dark side? Coin flip there. Now
remember that the corp has a solid 1K times the personnel that the runner
team does, that they have access to things that runners would drool just at
the mention of, and that they've got resources like no runner has ever seen.
Now who's got the upper hand? One cyber logician can set up the death of
any runner team easily. He never even has to set foot on the battleground
to do it, either. Joe Don the data entry clerk isn't going to be organizing
a strike. Nor is Benny the VP. It'll be the people who get paid to do
those things.

You, and many others, need to give the corps a LOT more credit than you are.
They run the shadows. They know what's going on. They'll know they've got
the right targets or they won't pull the trigger. If the percentages play
right, then it's over for the runners. Guaranteed. Unless they do some
serious bootlicking to make it worth the corp's while to keep them around.

>"Mr Chairman, can you confirm it is corporate policy to execute UCAS
>citizens, in UCAS jurisdiction, without trial and without liaison with
>the proper authorities?"

"I cannot confirm that as it clearly is not corporate policy to do so. This
has never happened and will never happen. You're with the Enquirer, aren't
you?". Corps wouldn't be held accountable for their actions because they're
smart enough not to be accountable (at least in any court of law).

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 118
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:59:33 -0500
>>Runners are scared shitless to run against Aztechnology because they handle
>>things correctly. Runners by the horde work for Aztechnology though. Why?

>No they don't... Aztechnology doesn't hire runners, by-and-large (some
>individuals within Aztechnology do, though). According to "Aztlan
>Sourcebook", Aztechnology hit runners hard, and don't hire them either.
>They use their own assets.

Both Robert and Paul stated that in the Aztlan book there was mention taht
Aztechnology didn't hire runners. I couldn't find this info anywhere in the
book, mind pointing me to a page or section?

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 119
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:59:47 -0500
>>Also, runners are rarely citizens. You have to have a SIN to be a citizen.
>>They're just a bunch of corpses rotting in a dumpster out in the barrens
>>that nobody ever saw get put there and nobody is going to go near.

>'Scuse me? Why would runners not have SINs, at least excellent fake
>ones? You want to be able to move relatively freely, you need a SIN. You
>need to be able to blend in uptown, you need a SIN that can stand some
>scrutiny.

And a corp can put any fake identity down in seconds. They don't even have
to try hard. Your favorite Italian restaurant might think your id is solid,
but any corp worth the name is going to scan that easily. If they have rela
SINs then they are too easy to find. Any runner with a real SIN is as good
as dead if he continues running. It'll take maybe a month, give or take 4
weeks.

>That means your body is a citizen's corpse and the corporation has to be
>a little careful. And a lot of people - the UCAS and all the other
>corporations - are just begging for you to slip once, because then you
>are sponsoring terrorism outside your jurisdiction.

Only if it's traceable back to you: "they were rogue elements, missing for
weeks from the corp, obviosuly shadowrunning trash" or they really were
shadowrunners, either way you're not at fault. Blaming things on a policlub
is almost too easy, hell, half the time they'll take credit for it anyway.

>Get your assasins caught and you're in big trouble.
>Hit the wrong target and you're in enormous trouble.
>Miss the target, and they may start hitting you hard to even the score.
>Van bombs work well in these situations. Indiscriminate, expensive
>damage to the corporation, accompanied by messages to the Board "Try and
>kill me again, and it gets even more expensive".

Which is my whole argument: you get the right targets, you hit them clean
and quick, your people get out, and there's no-one left to do anything to
you. Just like a shadowrun is supposed to be only now it's run by people
who eat, sleep, and breathe the corporate line. People who are trained by
the best personnel money can buy and equipped with top-of-the-line
merchandise. I doubt the runners would stand a chance of even knowing what
happened, let alone know who did it to them. Or you use shadowrunners,
which are cheaper and will do the job almost as nicely (send a dog to do a
dog's job and such).

>Why would killing a couple of small-time runners reach the ears of the
>top-level investors? Even if it did... "We killed those runners, sir."
>"Have we managed to improve security?"

"Did we make sure that what they did take from us is useless to them now?"
"Yes".
"Did we put the fear of megacorp into their hearts?"
"Yes".
"Did we take out one of our opponent's assets?"
"Yes".
"Did we scare off any other attempts?"
"Yes, the average price for runs against us doubled".
"Did we regain our honor by putting down the dogs that would attack us?"
"Hai".

etc...

>Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted doesn't earn a
>return. It doesn't even stop people running against you, because some
>will get away. It costs you money for no profit.

Why can nobody here see the profit in destroying a rival's assets, striking
fear into the hearts of those who would attack you (which WILL cut down the
number of runs on your facilities or make it much more expensive for
opposition to pay for them), or managing to enull the loss that you took
instead of watching it grow as the rival continues your work?

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 120
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:59:40 -0500
>The human mind is not the greatest way to store information. Three or more
>successes will allow access to everything that the target has remembered,
>which is not necessarily what really happened.

The human mind stores information extremely well. It just doesn't access
information well. The subconscious mind will have all the juicy tidbits for
a well-performed mind probe to look at.

>There is another philosophy of thought (which I do not subscribe to).
>Your subconscious retains everything that has ever happened to you in your
>life, in exquisite detail. Methods such as hypnosis, or in this case Mind
>Probe, can bring out that stored information.

I do subscribe to that, as do a hefty percentage of the members of the
scientific community. It can't really be proved either way as of yet (which
is very unfortunate) so we are all entitled to our opinions on the matter.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 121
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:59:51 -0500
>>Set up a run proposal, have snipers waiting, fire when ready. Cost? X
>>number of APDS rounds (where X represents the number of runners present).
>>Investigative work? The fixer handled that for you. Maybe drop a few
>>thousand his way to cover the burden on his cold black heart. Or hire
>>wetwork runners to get the team. Cost? Maybe 100,000 a head.

>You have snipers outside Takuri's? Boy, that's going to make you
>popular. "No, no, we're Fuchi Security. No, I can't show you any ID, I'm
>here to execute a shadowrunner - erm, carry out a training exercise. Uh,
>I left the permit for the rifle at home. No, Officer, they aren't cop-
>killer bullets. Well, they are, but they're not for cops..."

"They aren't my snipers, I'm just a guy out for his lunch break. I'd guess
that they're just disgruntled postal workers or moody loners who decided to
open up in a crowd, just managing to hit these people. Do I know any of
them. No, but the blonde over there was cute before her face ended up in my
sushi."
-- as said by a restaurant patron

It's not like the snipers will be carrying a Fuchi banner around with them
or use corp logo bullets. After about oh say, a day, the authorities will
know that the bodies had no legal identities and were thought to be criminal
elements responsible for several terrorist acts. Another vigilante act:
justice or criminal in itself?

>There's a reason to hold meets at a quality place.

Sure and who is going to have mroe influece at such places? A runner team
or a corp?

>Also, who sets up this run? There's a fixer who is not going to be
>happy. That fixer now has a rep of setting runners up to be killed. That
>fixer may spread the word not to accept jobs from your corporation,
>because fixers with repuations like that don't last long.

Sorry the fixer got killed in revenge by the little brother of one of the
runners. And who's to say he even really knows exactly who set them up?
Corps can fake that kind of stuff really easily. Easier than runners can.

>What's one of the biggest problems trying to crack organisations like
>the Mafia? Omerta. The old code of honour, "nobody talks". Having a code
>of honour can help you a lot. Doing good deeds helps you a lot: those
>squatters you buy food for make handy scouts. "Hey, Jase, these two
>suits were scoping for you."

Organizations like the Mafia (in unrealistic worlds) have things like
Omerta. Realistically speaking that's a romanticized idea that never really
existed. The Yakuza and Triads are a different story, it's a part of a
culture that dates back thousands of years. And we know that neither of
those have corporate ties, right?

(pause for sarcasm to kick in).

Having a code of honor is a nice thing, but it's hardly followed by all and
rarely followed except by a few. Even today the Mafia gets nailed by
informants. They've been getting nailed like this for @*** years now. It
is nice to think that Omerta really means something to some people but it
doesn't mean much to others (especially when they're facing jail).

>When one guy helps you out when he can and has a rep for honesty, and
>someone else comes to you offering cash to sell your friend out, you ask
>a few questions. Cash is king: but you need to eat tomorrow too. And
>this new guy is a real hard-case. Is he really going to let you keep the
>money, or will he kill you and take it back?

I probably wouldn't take the cash to kill my friend. But I would take it to
ace some other runner who I hardly knew. No big deal there. Cash up front.

>Ruthlessness is not always the best policy, especially long-term: if you
>screw over everyone as hard as you can, they'll screw back: and there
>are more of them than there are of you.

Not even close. Shadowrunners are hideously outnumbered by corporate
personnel of all types. One team isn't going to unite all the others under
the banner of "they're going to kill us, would you die with us?". Most
likely they'll find themselves alone and waiting for everything to go dark.
Know how many top-level runners there are in Seattle? Guess. Fifty. Now,
how many mercenaries and Desert Wars personnel and security personnel of the
same class can a corp round up on short notice? Guess. I'll be generous to
the runners and say around 200. Four to one odds aren't acceptable to
anyone when you're outclassed all around. Especially since most of those 50
won't join up because they don't want to lose their favorite cash cows and
they know that once the fluff of the shadows is gone, they'll get more work
at higher prices.

If you're a fixer would you rather cut off a runner team or a corp contact?
Runner team in a heartbeat, there'll always be new talent out there but
there won't always be the money to buy it.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 122
From: "Paolo Falco" <Falco@****.it>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:42:10 +0000
On 22 May 96, Somebody :) wrote:
>The key to the cameras is the fact that the runners have
>covered themselves up a great deal.

My characters used to wear Donald Duck masks :) And they had as
a front for their "team" (they were more than a mere
"shadowrunning team" at the time), a kindergarten ruled by
an-iron fist nun called "Sister Barbarian", which was named
"The happy duck bunch Institute". Do you think that it was too
nice on my part not to let the corps notice this dead giveaway? :)

Yours with gagas

Paolo Falco [Falco@****.it] Ironbound Section (Near Avenue L)
-------------------------------------------------------------
FREEDOM IS THE ANSWER TO A QUESTION WE DON'T HAVE TO ASK
*****> SKATERS!!! Check this site for THE contact game! <****
HTTP://WWW.POLITO.IT/~walter/RollerBrawl/rollerbrawl.html
Message no. 123
From: "Paolo Falco" <Falco@****.it>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:54:12 +0000
On 22 May 96, TopCat wrote:

> >What's one of the biggest problems trying to crack
> >organisations like the Mafia? Omerta. The old code of honour,
> >"nobody talks".
>
> Organizations like the Mafia (in unrealistic worlds) have
> things like Omerta. Realistically speaking that's a
> romanticized idea that never really existed.

You tell that to the people who die every day in the middle of
the streets in Palermo or Corleone and, when the Police arrives,
normal people who OBVIOUSLY WERE in the middle of that same
street AND WHO ARE NOT part of the Mafia (in the strict sense)
say "I have seen nothing".

Just to rectify, you know. People DIE in Italy because they try
to talk... NORMAL people... Priests, businessmen, people who
refuse to adhere to the so called "CODE OF HONOUR" and to pay
the rackets... It's a trend that is just starting to reverse...

Paolo Falco [Falco@****.it] Ironbound Section (Near Avenue L)
-------------------------------------------------------------
FREEDOM IS THE ANSWER TO A QUESTION WE DON'T HAVE TO ASK
*****> SKATERS!!! Check this site for THE contact game! <****
HTTP://WWW.POLITO.IT/~walter/RollerBrawl/rollerbrawl.html
Message no. 124
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:03:50 +0200
At 0:38 Uhr 22.05.96, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>TopCat <topcat@******.net> writes
>>All your corps and their operatives must be totally incompetent, then. To
>>me a corporate strike team would be at least at the level of a Desert Wars
>>fire team. I think they could handle a runner team pretty easily and very
>>quietly.
[snip]
>Very different skill sets. Also, you're exposing your elite troops to a
>real high-risk environment. In this setting, isn't any runner or
>wannabee with a shot at their backs going to take it? They could be
>after *you*... if not today, then tomorrow. Kill them now, not later.

>Can the British Army expect to send the SAS into corporate turf at whim?
>Somehow I doubt it. Would we let them do that here? Not on your life.

Best example may be the British Army in North Ireland/Eire. Heck, I suppose
they ARE well trained, so there should be no problem at all to take out those
IRA 'terrorists', right? Following TopCat's argumentaion, at least.
Go, tell 'em.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 125
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:03:56 +0200
At 1:27 Uhr 22.05.96, Paul J. Adam wrote:
[snip snip snip... very long statement just cut]
Paul, I am very angry.

Yes, indeed. You wrote this great statement while I was just starting to sort
out what I'd had to write, took what I wanted to say, and put it in better
words then I would have or could.
*sigh* You were faster and better, and there's no way I ever can forgive
you :-)

Thanx, it was a great answer!

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 126
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:25:47 +0100
In message <Pine.HPP.3.91.960521214342.13966A-100000@********>, Valerie
A Olson <volson@********.ca> writes
>Ummm, Paul? Do you know much about buisiness? Do you know what kind of
>markup there is on most of the products you buy today? You buy a pair of
>Nike shoes for about $100, right? Do you know what it costs Nike to build
>said shoes? Yes, about $5. On most of your clothing you haveabout 150%
>mark up, on jewellery closer to 250%. Is the afore mentioned 95%
>unrealistic? Yes,but on the conservative side.

You're talking high-value consumer goods, where the markup is accounted
for by the brand name. I wear Hi-Tec shoes, because they're a third of
the price of Nike and I don't care about brand name :)

I build lightweight torpedoes for the Royal Navy and RAF, and our
margins - on cost, on support - are set by the Ministry and verified by
PQS inspection. Selling for export, we're competing against Honeywell,
Whitehead and Eurotorp before we even start, and I promise you that the
margin is the first thing to go. Military hardware is priced much closer
to the line than running shoes.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 127
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:43:40 -0500
>On 22 May 96, TopCat wrote:
>
>> >What's one of the biggest problems trying to crack
>> >organisations like the Mafia? Omerta. The old code of honour,
>> >"nobody talks".
>>
>> Organizations like the Mafia (in unrealistic worlds) have
>> things like Omerta. Realistically speaking that's a
>> romanticized idea that never really existed.
[snip of Paolo telling it like it is]

<applause>

When Paul Castellano was killed (back in 1986 I believe) the only
information the police got was that there were three men in trenchcoats and
suits who walked up to Paul and his bodygaurd, pulled out SMG's, and shot
him. One then bent down and shot Paul in the head. No descriptions other
than this were available, and this was in front of a busy restaurant.
People keep their mouths shut. So does the Mafia. If you think that Omerta
is romanticized, then take note that until the late 70's early 80's, there
had never been a confirmed report that the Mafia exsisted, much less a
mention of La Cosa Nostra.

BTW: Paul Castellano was The Boss of Bosses.
Message no. 128
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:28:03 +0200
At 18:59 Uhr 22.05.96, TopCat wrote:
[Aztlan/Aztechnology]
>The nationalization of the other corps was the work of Aztechnology, they
>did it blatantly and without regard to the wishes of the Corporate Court.
>Eventually this (and other things) led to Operation Reciprocity. It almost
>led to all-out war, but Aztechnology backed down and signed the Veracruz treaty.
errm... after being Thor-Hammered. Not much of a choice...

>[snip] In short, I'll not "give" the players benefit of the
>doubt. If you forgot that guns aren't allowed into the nightclub, but you
>always carry yours, you won't be let in. If you don't wear a mask of some
>sort, security will know exactly what you look like when you break in. If
>you don't have a stealth skill, you aren't going to be real sneaky, no
>matter how much you try to convince me you are. Mean gamemaster or realistic?

SOP, I'd say.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 129
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:09:15 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 22 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

>
> Which is kind of my point, few runners ever really are prepared to hit an
> installation the likes of one of Aztechnology's holdings. If the players
> don't actively describe to me what they do to cover their tracks during a
> run, then I assume they do nothing of the sort. If they want to cast
> physmask and other spells, then they better cast them and I better know
> about it. If they want to alter their appearances heavily, then they better
> tell me how they do so. If the players were to write down a standard set of
> procedures that they do before every run, then I'd use those as the basis
> (and it'd cut the time spent telling me everything they do at the start of a
> run considerably). In short, I'll not "give" the players benefit of the
> doubt. If you forgot that guns aren't allowed into the nightclub, but you
> always carry yours, you won't be let in. If you don't wear a mask of some
> sort, security will know exactly what you look like when you break in. If
> you don't have a stealth skill, you aren't going to be real sneaky, no
> matter how much you try to convince me you are. Mean gamemaster or realistic?
>
T.C. you have no idea how much I would love to play in one of your games!

The ROO-MAN.
via his wife.
Message no. 130
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:18:45 -0700 (PDT)
On Tue, 21 May 1996, Joe Atkins wrote:

> Pretty soon I beleive that every message posted to ShadowRN
> will have the subject Re:Killing in Shadowrun...

I had no idea that I would start such a popular thread!

---Tom---
Message no. 131
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:49:35 -0500
At 11:19 AM 5/22/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>TopCat said on 13:34/21 May 96...
>
>> >And it wouldn't work on my team. First: the fixer wouldn't be able to get
>> >new clients (runners)... he double-crosses them.
>>
>> Fixer knew nothing about a set-up. He was contacted through the regular
>> means and the contact made it through all the right hoops. Sure he may end
>> up getting screwed in the backlash, but what's the corp care?
>
>That wasn't the point. The point (as I understand it) was that the fixer
>will now have a bad rep, and so will try to warn others of the corp in
>question, in order to make people trust him again. The corp won't care if
>the fixer's rep goes down the drain.

As far as the fixer knows it was some Johnson from Saeder-Krupp who ordered
the run. It was really an Ares rep. So now S-K can't get shadow work done
and they're wondering why. Two birds with one stone.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 132
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:49:37 -0500
At 11:19 AM 5/22/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>TopCat said on 13:12/21 May 96...
>
>> And do the SINless really have rights in the UCAS? They do in the USA, kind
>> of. This discussion came up before, I seem to remember and nobody could
>> point out that the SINless, officially nonexistant people in the UCAS had
>> any rights whatsoever aside from what the poster _thought_ they would have.
>> Which would be opinion. And I've made my stand on opinion plenty of times.
>
>Anyone -- with a SIN or without one -- in the UCAS would have basic human
>rights, such as the right not to be killed.

"That rotting corpse we found in the dumpster didn't have a SIN. Poor
bastard had been shot twice in the face. Didn't anyone know he had the
right not to be killed too?"

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 133
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:49:29 -0500
>>All your corps and their operatives must be totally incompetent, then. To
>>me a corporate strike team would be at least at the level of a Desert Wars
>>fire team. I think they could handle a runner team pretty easily and very
>>quietly.

>Desert War strike teams? Including the armour and artillery support? Too
>right you'll pay through the nose... Sure, they could handle a runner
>team (but I think a competent team could get away), but they 'll do so
>much incidental damage that the bill will be through the roof!

Now, how about a team around the level of Rangers or SEALs? Nice and quiet
when they need to be. Top-level equipment and training. I'm not talking
about sending tanks through Seattle, here. To do that would be insane. But
a team like I am talking about would most likely do the job without a trace
and come back all in one piece. Cost? You pay their salaries to do just
what they did, but maybe you could throw them a bonus for a job well done.
Incidental damage will be in the unnoticeable to minimal range.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 134
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:49:47 -0500
>There is still the hard fact that money secreted in accounts is money
>lost, not earning a return or paid as dividends. Efficiency pays off. A
>company that doesn't do this makes more profit than one who does: for
>every newyen silted away to boost security or earn extra money, there
>will be dozens gone into personal accounts, "travel expenses",
>"miscellaneous disbursements"...

This is where we differ and greatly so. Money that doesn't pay directly to
the corp immediately is not necessarily money lost. Money spent on a team
to kill a runner team will pay off in the long run by making it more
expensive to your rivals to hire runners to hit you. In the Aztlan
sourcebook (and I'm sure that Corp Shadowfiles has this too) they mention
such practices, but on a different scale. Aztechnology, when it wished to
buy a corp, began a process that cost them 200 million nuyen without
immediate return before they actually got the corp. Years later, corps fear
being beaten to death in the market like that corp was and they fold much
easier when Aztechnology comes knocking. That 200 million "lost" has paid
off in the long run in big ways.

Corps, even today, drop hundreds of thousands (millions aren't uncommon)
into things that won't ever pay off in a direct manner. Like vacation time
for employees, retirement accounts, travel expenses, security, and dozens of
other things. They do pay off, just not in a direct "cash in my hands now"
kind of way.

>>Is it worth it to publicize the fact that your rival corp got infiltrated?
>>You betcha. An anonymous phone call can cost your rival a huge amount of
>>money and most likely get you some in the deal. So not only did you nail
>>them with the run, but you also nailed them with bad publicity.

>All depends. "We leaked a story about the "theft" of a key project a
>while ago. Played the bear market on the shares, sold long when they
>dropped and made a *fortune*, but it was justified under "security
>considerations" - because the stock recovered when we proved the story
>false. Of course we warned our major investors. The small guys? Too bad,
>them's the breaks."

"Then why is your former top researcher known to be working for the other
corp now? That was the story that was 'leaked'. You're saying it isn't
true? Oh, you've decided to change your mind now? The employee just left,
huh? And you let him? Ok, yep, gotcha. I'll get right on publicizing that..."

Next day in the paper: Researcher switches corps, former corp tries to
cover up it's loss by saying it didn't happen and that they had fabricated
the whole thing, then that it did, but that the guy left on his own and they
let him. Meanwhile the new employer just shakes his head and pities the
incompetence of the other corp. From the researcher himself: "Working for
them was sheer hell, I never got to do all that I could, but with this corp
my abilities are shining and great new things are sure to come. I mean,
just look at how they're handling this, they're totally incompetent". I can
hear the sound of falling market value from way over here.

>What if I plant evidence, a few days after the run, that a rival runner
>did my hit? I might even get paid twice: once for the job, again to take
>the patsy out :) The corporation doesn't get vengeance, the runners who
>actually did the job are still free, and you just made a set of enemies.

And so did you, the patsy's friends will remember that your actions led to
his death. You did cover your tracks with the corp though (assuming that
you did so well enough that they can't figure it out, which is assuming a
lot). If you didn't cover them well enough, then you're back to square one.

>Miss, hit the wrong person, or get team-members captured, and you have a
>lot of explaining to do. Why are your heavily-armed soldiers in the UCAS
>without permission? "Corporate death squads roam city!" bellow the
>screamsheets. Yes, it happens all the time, but nobody gets proof.

Are my heavily armed soldiers connected in any way to my corp? No. Do they
fly the corporate colors and sing the company song as they shoot the town to
pieces? No. Corps are not that stupid.

>And if your target escapes the first attempt - as PC runners are prone
>to do - then you may run into *big* problems. Terrorism is relatively
>easy when you're a runner. The corp has an airline? A few fully-loaded
>929s crash, and a terrorist claims responsibility. There goes that
>airline's profitability, here come some massive lawsuits from the
>famililes of the dead.

Once again, thing shave changed in 2057. It isn't as easy to sneak a bomb
aboard a plane now, nor is it easy to sabotage a plane. Chem-sniffers and
scanners of all sorts from cyberware to magical handle former threats like
bombs and terrorism much easier than we can today. Good luck trying to
break through THAT security to get a job done.

>>Is it worth it to let this be known? It could be worth it to let the media
>>know that a prominent scientist was kidnapped from your facility and has
>>been spotted working in your rivals facility. May not have to lift a finger
>>after that, the authorities can handle it from there. It could be worth it
>>to make it known in some circles that the team that did the run was
>>eliminated, whether to scare off potential attacks or to build confidence
>>within the corp. It could be worth it to keep everything dead quiet, but
>>that's nearly impossible.

>Why would "the authorities" do anything? "The authorities" for
that
>jurisdiction are the people who paid to "renegotiate his contract of
>employment". The runners are in an area outside your control and all you
>can do is issue a request for their extradition, which will be used to
>trade for any outstanding warrants for your people.

Runner commits crime in Arcology (somehow he managed). He escapes to UCAS
territory. Corp asks UCAS for the criminal. UCAS says we can't find him.
Corp puts a bounty on the runner's head. Within two weeks he is dumped on
the corp's doorstep. Bounty paid, problem solved.

>>Corps need to be played like they are in 2057, not like they are in USA
>>1996. Many of the old restrictions are gone and that should be remembered.
>>The world has changed greatly, there's been plagues and wars like we've
>>never seen in our lives. Things have changed and the people changed with
them.

>Some corps do this... It makes it more expensive to run against them. It
>means there's a cachet to having done so and survived: it's a fast
>ticket to reputatiton. The hottest youngsters want to play on
>Aztechnology's lawn :) That can be a problem. You evolve runners fast,
>and you are dealing with those who have talent, little to lose, no
>reason for any restraint, and a loose grasp on reality. Pretty
>dangerous.

Reputation can and will get you dead. Either by you slipping up and
bragging or by the gunslinger mentality runner who says he's hotter drek
than you are and he wants to prove it. If the runner has that loose of a
grip on reality, then he won't live to see his second run.

>Other corporations keep their security inside the fence. It's very hard
>to carry out a run against them, and they go all-out to stop you.
>Succeed and get away, and unless you were careless, brutal or messy, you
>walk. This time. No wasted effort hunting down shadow assets: you even
>employ them, so you can build a file on them, so if you *do* need to
>reel them in you can do so. But because, for the same amout of money,
>you have more men manning the walls, the runners get in less often.
>*That* is the aim of security.

All corps keep security of that level (usually more than enough) inside
their fences. The one's who go the extra yard do so both inside and out.
As I mentioned before, corps seem pretty incompetent in your game.

>[snipped "You kill runners so I won't work for you because I'm afraid
you'll kill me"]

Only if they're working for the other guy do they worry about you killing
them. If they work for you, they know that you treat your people well and
pay well and they won't have a worry in their mind.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 135
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:59:48 -0500
>>The nationalization of the other corps was the work of Aztechnology, they
>>did it blatantly and without regard to the wishes of the Corporate Court.
>>Eventually this (and other things) led to Operation Reciprocity. It almost
>>led to all-out war, but Aztechnology backed down and signed the Veracruz
treaty.

>errm... after being Thor-Hammered. Not much of a choice...

Never happened. It was speculated that a thor-shot attack might have nearly
happened in the shadow-postings in the sections.

>>[snip] In short, I'll not "give" the players benefit of the
>>doubt. If you forgot that guns aren't allowed into the nightclub, but you
>>always carry yours, you won't be let in. If you don't wear a mask of some
>>sort, security will know exactly what you look like when you break in. If
>>you don't have a stealth skill, you aren't going to be real sneaky, no
>>matter how much you try to convince me you are. Mean gamemaster or realistic?

>SOP, I'd say.

Good deal, we agree on something!

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 136
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:06:33 +0100
In message <v01540b02adc87f49dedb@[134.106.1.81]>, Sascha Pabst
<Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE> writes
>At 0:38 Uhr 22.05.96, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>>Can the British Army expect to send the SAS into corporate turf at whim?
>>Somehow I doubt it. Would we let them do that here? Not on your life.
>
>Best example may be the British Army in North Ireland/Eire. Heck, I suppose
>they ARE well trained, so there should be no problem at all to take out those
>IRA 'terrorists', right? Following TopCat's argumentaion, at least.
>Go, tell 'em.

Spot on, Sasha, I should have thought of that: it's an almost exact
parallel.

It's not as bad as it was, but it used to reach the point that, in
certain areas, if anyone spotted a soldier or policeman, everyone living
there would be outside beating dustbin lids, making as much noise as
humanly possible to warn "our boys" to make like good little terrorists,
or get out of Dodge.

Undercover work? In areas like that? Not a hope. You want a passable
example of what it was like in the 1970s, read "Harry's Game" by Gerald
Seymour: the story is of a British intelligence officer sent undercover
to assassinate a key player. Another very appropriate Seymour is "At
Close Quarters", where an Israeli sniper and his assistant have to kill
a Palestinian terrorist in the Bekaa Valley. Shows the flip side of
operating in hostile territory, where you may individually outgun and
out-skill every opponent... but your mission depends on not alerting the
target.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 137
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:38:39 -0500
At 09:50 AM 5/22/96 +0200, Sascha wrote:
>>>Did you read the above? Would you really spend 50 million protecting a
>>>site that's worth 51 million?

>>Yes, I did. That's why I replied to it. If a site is worth 51 million,
>>then it is potentially worth 510 million or more. Is it worth it to have 50
>>million in security measures on a project potentially worth 10 times that?
>>Yes. Do you know what 50 million in security measures is? Would any runner
>>be stupid enough to try and get through 50 million nuyen worth of security?

>I'd like to agree or discuss, but gotta admit: I don't understand.
>Would you please explain what you mean, in more easy words, for us
not-quite-so-
>elaborate-in-english ? Thanx.

If a project alone is worth 51 million nuyen, it will have a projected worth
of @** times that in the long run. So it's actual worth would be around 510
million nuyen. Which is definitely worth 50 million nuyen in security
measures. Sure the area itself is only worth maybe 51 million, but in the
long run it'll be worth much more.

Still kinda ugly around the edges, but I don't know how to make it less so.
It's times like these I wish I knew another language well enough to type
messages in...

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 138
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:38:36 -0500
>A 95% markup? In a competitive market? You jest, surely.

Would be nice to think so, but I'm not. Especially when there's this wonder
of the totally free market of SR (not even the US or Japan has this) called
"collusion" whereby organizations can get together and set a higher price
for an item or service across the board. Raising profits all around at only
the cost of the consumer. It is so easy to tool automated lines to produce
products in 2057 that almost all of the cost is wrapped up in design.


>Your military is typically only a company or battalion

The figure of a company or battalion is hideously low compared to the actual
military might of a megacorporation. It's more in the league of what most
countries have. You might have, on hand, a company to play with. With more
available should it really be needed. Plus, these people have better toys
than most militaries could ever hope to have, as well as better training.

>Three guys with sniper rifles attract attention. Sniper rifles are
>expensive and highly illegal, and the cops will shoot first and ask
>questions later.

The cops are going to see three snipers, especially experienced
corporate-equipped snipers? How? Ruthenium fiber tech is cheap and very
useful. Or maybe they just use a city spirit for concealment. Easy solutions.

>I don't cut runners much slack on the street, but it's a very hard place
>for corporate operations too.

I don't doubt that it is as hard on corps as it is on runners, but corps
still have deeper pockets and more impressive resources than any runner team
out there.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 139
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:38:42 -0500
At 06:07 PM 5/22/96 +1030, Robert wrote:
>>Yes, I did. That's why I replied to it. If a site is worth 51 million,
>>then it is potentially worth 510 million or more. Is it worth it to have 50
>>million in security measures on a project potentially worth 10 times that?
>>Yes. Do you know what 50 million in security measures is? Would any runner
>>be stupid enough to try and get through 50 million nuyen worth of security?
>
>I costed this in "Corp Security Handbook" one day... consider these
>things:
>
>Solid magical security can cost upwards over 150,000 Y a _week_. That's
>only a handful of decent strength wards, BTW, let alone the cost of the
>mages, and the elemental backup. Matrix security is upwards of 20
>million. A guard force of about 20 people will cost you, in equipment,
>salaries, and training, over 10 million a year. Heck, we haven't even hit
>the cost of the walls, gates, sensors, and drones, yet.

Mind dropping the page numbers for this, I'd be very interested in finding
them. (I couldn't find them myself in a quick scan of the book and find most
of those estimates to be way out of realistic ranges). Plus, all the toys
built into the facility were costs figured into it at the time of building.
So those don't ever need to be paid for again. Then there's Matrix
security, but you've got deckers all over the system that you hired straight
from college (why buy from KE when you can get them at cost?). Then there's
magic security, which follows the same lines as matrix. Rigged security
system? Nice to have, not too expensive to set up and worth every penny, I
say go with it, but don't buy from KE, build it yourself and use your
personnel. Savings galore.

Many items only need to be paid for once. Then you need repair people
(which are pretty standard fare) and personnell to run the items. If you're
smart, you won't hire outside help in any of these areas unless absolutely
necessary. You'll go with your own homegrown people. Far more loyal and
they answer to you, not to you through their boss. So KE's estimates for
what they'd charge for security are going to be considerably larger than
what you'd be able to do with your own personnel. Why the hell would I use
them?

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 140
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:38:45 -0500
>Yeah, of course... Now, ask yourself this: A country sends a fighter
>strike in at you. AFTER the fighters get away, what do you do? Hit the
>country back, or go down and destroy the fighters that went into your
>territory?

Both.

>Yeah, but it's not hidden from everyone... I can guarrentee you that if
>you, a high-ranking member of a megacorp, started shuffling the odd
>hundred-thou to the side without the higher-up's knowledge, you are
>looking at early retirement with a 9mm redundancy package.

So let them know. No big deal. They'll give the orders and your neck's off
the chopping block. Worst case, they make the mistake and you get to move
up. Best case, things go as planned and you're commended on your actions
and suggestions.

>Basically, if you commit a crime in corp-town, then the only people you
>have to worry about is that corp. No-one else is going to worry about you
>for that incident.

Except for those that the corp pays or has connections to. Stole that from
Mitsuhama, eh? Got some friends with full-body tattoos and crysanthemums
who'd like to speak with you. Nailed Ares for some designs? That was going
to be a new toy of the UCAS army, still might be if they can get to you fast
enough.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 141
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:38:48 -0500
At 06:07 PM 5/22/96 +1030, Robert wrote:
>>Which will give you information on what really happened. The detection
>>spell table on pg. 152 states that with 4 successes you will get accurate
>>and detailed information. Now, let's make the subject voluntary. He
>>suppresses his willpower down to one, the mage casts his mind probe with @**
>>dice or more. He gets 8 successes. Wow. I'd say that'd give you pretty
>>much anything you'd want.

>Interesting study on hypnotic recall... This guy put someone under
>hypnosis, and got a recollection of the subject's eighth birthday (which
>happened 30 odd years before). But he couldn't get a recollection of the
>day afterwards. Why? Because human memory is NOT like a camera. You do
>not get automatic recall of events. There is strong evidence to suggest
>that if an event is stored in long-term memory, then it will not go away
>(subject to damage), but there's that limit of only 7-9 items in
>short-term memory, remember.

I'm not talking about 30 years old information I'm looking for through a
Mind Probe, I'm talking about information that's an hour or less old. Easy.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 142
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:38:52 -0500
At 06:20 PM 5/22/96 +1030, Robert wrote:
>>>And it wouldn't work on my team. First: the fixer wouldn't be able to get
>>>new clients (runners)... he double-crosses them.
>>Fixer knew nothing about a set-up. He was contacted through the regular
>>means and the contact made it through all the right hoops. Sure he may end
>>up getting screwed in the backlash, but what's the corp care?
>But that's even worse... the fixer will know he got fragged over, and
>he'll pass the word around. Soon, NO fixer will take the case. Not out of
>solidarity... out of fear that they'll be fragged over as well.

So as far as the Fixer knows it was Mitsuhama who pulled the setup. It was
really Renraku, but the set Mitsuhama for the fall. Now Mitsuhama can't get
any shadowrunenrs and they can't figure out why. All they ever get is nasty
looks.

>>So you meet at a club: astral nasties handle your mage when his anchored
>>barrier kicks in, friends in melee (if possible troll friends) beat you to a
>>pulp.
>Not bloody likely... any obvious presence like that, and you wouldn't
>turn up. And twenty big heavy guys in a club in a low-use time count as
>obvious, you know.

What obvious presence? It's a big club with a lot of rooms and a basement.
It also could be owned by the corp, nightclubs come real cheap compared to
businesses. All sorts of thing sthat you can do to screw over runners who
don't do every single thing possible. And corps would know exactly what
every single one of those things were.

>> You meet at a restaurant: poisoned food/drink, wait a couple hours.
>Oh yeah... restaurants will just LOVE you going around poisoning their
>food. What if there's a mixup in the orders? Not too smart... it'd be
>better to release a slow-spreading, short-lived aerosol toxin.

What if the corp owns the restaurant? Paid the chef for a favor? Passer-by
sprays a pump of breath-freshener/cyanide before the plate/drink ever makes
it to the runner. Better yet, use time-release poisons. Then you can make
them do things before they die, or be nice and let them live knowing that
they can be nailed now.

>A mage can't bash through a sustained spell.

They can't?

>Spirits aren't too much of a problem for a prepared team.

They aren't?

>And finally... No corp, not even Aztechnology, has all that many
>magically active hit teams. And a corp mage isn't likely to be any more
>powerful than a runner mage. Magic's the great leveler, after all. You
>might end up losing your strike mage, whose training cost you in excess
>of 5 million nuyen.

Only takes one magically active hit team to do the job. A corp mage is more
likely to be more powerful than a runner mage (resources matter to mages
too). If you do things right (which any worthwhile corp team will) then you
won't lose anyone. Shadowrunners do this all the time, the corps are better
at it, they'll be able to do it just fine.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 143
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:38:59 -0500
>You're talking high-value consumer goods, where the markup is accounted
>for by the brand name. I wear Hi-Tec shoes, because they're a third of
>the price of Nike and I don't care about brand name :)

But the brand names of Renraku and Fuchi are worth big cash just the same as
Nike, actually more so in many areas. You may feel comfortable getting a
cyberarm from Bubba's Bargain Bunker, but I'll stick with the pro's.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 144
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:38:56 -0500
>>>What's one of the biggest problems trying to crack
>>>organisations like the Mafia? Omerta. The old code of honour,
>>>"nobody talks".
>> Organizations like the Mafia (in unrealistic worlds) have
>> things like Omerta. Realistically speaking that's a
>> romanticized idea that never really existed.
>You tell that to the people who die every day in the middle of
>the streets in Palermo or Corleone and, when the Police arrives,
>normal people who OBVIOUSLY WERE in the middle of that same
>street AND WHO ARE NOT part of the Mafia (in the strict sense)
>say "I have seen nothing".

I'm telling you that even today (in the US, not Italy, which is VERY
different) everyone from caporegimas to the lowliest number runner end up in
jail. How? They get informed on. Now Italy is different because
(supposedly, and I believe it) the Mafia has a presence there like the drug
cartels have in South America. The own the country. Things are very
different in the US where that is not the case. They are still influential
in certain circles today, but not nearly to the extreme they are in Italy.
And in SR, the Yakuza has infiltrated a hefty percentage of their former
footholds. Then there's the Triads and Posses and outlaw biker gangs and
every other organization who has taken a bite out of what could've been
Mafia run. So they have nowhere near the influence in the US as they do in
Italy and that's why they get nailed.

>Just to rectify, you know. People DIE in Italy because they try
>to talk... NORMAL people... Priests, businessmen, people who
>refuse to adhere to the so called "CODE OF HONOUR" and to pay
>the rackets... It's a trend that is just starting to reverse...

In Italy, exactly. I wholeheartedly agree with you. I wouldn't ever dream
of messing with the Mafia in Italy. The Mafia in the US is very different
than the Italian Mafia, and that's just the way things are.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 145
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:39:01 -0500
>When Paul Castellano was killed (back in 1986 I believe) the only
>information the police got was that there were three men in trenchcoats and
>suits who walked up to Paul and his bodygaurd, pulled out SMG's, and shot
>him. One then bent down and shot Paul in the head. No descriptions other
>than this were available, and this was in front of a busy restaurant.
>People keep their mouths shut. So does the Mafia. If you think that Omerta
>is romanticized, then take note that until the late 70's early 80's, there
>had never been a confirmed report that the Mafia exsisted, much less a
>mention of La Cosa Nostra.

Funny, those terms were present back at least to the 1920's (I'm thinking
more along the lines of the mid-late 1800's). Fifty or sixty years apart
from what you describe. And the infamous Untouchables were created solely
to stamp out the Mafia presence in Chicago by several prominent businessmen
in the area. So I'd say that there were official reports containing those
words LONG before the 70's and 80's. Would be nice to think that there
weren't, but there were. Maybe not an official report to some schmoe on the
street, but people knew and the right people knew better.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 146
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:39:04 -0500
> T.C. you have no idea how much I would love to play in one of your games!
>
>The ROO-MAN.
>via his wife.

I get this feeling that you aren't from Central Illinois though. Maybe I'll
run into you at a con sometime. :)

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 147
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 20:50:55 -0400 (EDT)
At 11:59 AM 5/22/96 -0500, you wrote:
Someone wrote:
>>No they don't... Aztechnology doesn't hire runners, by-and-large (some
>>individuals within Aztechnology do, though). According to "Aztlan
>>Sourcebook", Aztechnology hit runners hard, and don't hire them either.
>>They use their own assets.
>
>Both Robert and Paul stated that in the Aztlan book there was mention taht
>Aztechnology didn't hire runners. I couldn't find this info anywhere in the
>book, mind pointing me to a page or section?

Aren't the DragonKnights (from Maria Mercurial and another one about the
Brawl Bowl) the in-house Aztecnology goons?


--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer
Message no. 148
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:13:49 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 22 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> > T.C. you have no idea how much I would love to play in one of your games!
> >
> >The ROO-MAN.
> >via his wife.
>
> I get this feeling that you aren't from Central Illinois though. Maybe I'll
> run into you at a con sometime. :)
>
A long ways from it in fact, I'm in southern Ontario. If I bump into you
I'd be a happy little Chrome jockey :-D

The ROO-MAN,
Via his wife.
Message no. 149
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:15:51 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 22 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> >You're talking high-value consumer goods, where the markup is accounted
> >for by the brand name. I wear Hi-Tec shoes, because they're a third of
> >the price of Nike and I don't care about brand name :)
>
> But the brand names of Renraku and Fuchi are worth big cash just the same as
> Nike, actually more so in many areas. You may feel comfortable getting a
> cyberarm from Bubba's Bargain Bunker, but I'll stick with the pro's.
>
Dudeth thou tookest the words right out of my mouth!

The ROO-MAN,
Via his wife.
Message no. 150
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 12:41:27 +1030
>>Your military is typically only a company or battalion
>
>The figure of a company or battalion is hideously low compared to the actual
>military might of a megacorporation. It's more in the league of what most
>countries have. You might have, on hand, a company to play with. With more
>available should it really be needed. Plus, these people have better toys
>than most militaries could ever hope to have, as well as better training.

*sigh* In "Corporate Shadowfiles" and "Aztlan Sourcebook", it is
_stressed_ that the heavy security assets of even a Big 8 corp is only
about a division or so of mechanised troops. Desert War encounters are at
the company size, and at THAT, most megacorps have to commit almost all
their heavy security to play the game. The only corporation that is an
exception is Aztechnology, because they have the Aztlan army to play
with. OTH, the "elite core" is of the same quality as the typical corp
unit, and about the same size.

If every megacorp in the world pooled ALL their heavy security assets,
they'd give, say, the UCAS a run for their money. But they'd be smaller
by a long way then the US army today. Oh, and those corp divisions
mentioned above are roughly equivalent to a standard UCAS armoured
division.

The corps DO NOT go in for heavy duty destruction. The whole point of
Desert Wars was to give corps a way to settle arguements like this whilst
keeping the damage bill low.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 151
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 12:42:09 +1030
>The cops are going to see three snipers, especially experienced
>corporate-equipped snipers? How? Ruthenium fiber tech is cheap and very
>useful. Or maybe they just use a city spirit for concealment. Easy
>solutions.

Astral survailence spots both, TC... :) A watcher spirt on Astral
overwatch will notice 'em. If you're worried about the astral overwatch
being knocked out, use a nature spirit or elemental or ally... the
conjurer knows when they are attacked.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 152
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 23:17:54 -0400 (EDT)
At 01:11 PM 5/21/96 -0500, ScatCat wrote:

>Very few people seem to understand what I am trying to say on this subject,
>so I am going to post all of my views and explanations of said views in this
>single post.

Gee, thanks.
You shouldn't have.

Really.
You shouldn't have.
*yawn*

[9 KB flushed]

--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer
Message no. 153
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 13:04:02 +1030
>>Solid magical security can cost upwards over 150,000 Y a _week_. That's
>>only a handful of decent strength wards, BTW, let alone the cost of the
>>mages, and the elemental backup. Matrix security is upwards of 20
>>million. A guard force of about 20 people will cost you, in equipment,
>>salaries, and training, over 10 million a year. Heck, we haven't even hit
>>the cost of the walls, gates, sensors, and drones, yet.
>
>Mind dropping the page numbers for this, I'd be very interested in finding
>them. (I couldn't find them myself in a quick scan of the book and find most
>of those estimates to be way out of realistic ranges). Plus, all the toys
>built into the facility were costs figured into it at the time of building.
>So those don't ever need to be paid for again. Then there's Matrix

Okay... A ward costs 1000Y/unit. One unit gives one force point. So a
rating 6 ward costs 6000. Now, a ward will only last a few days... call
it 3, on average. So, you're spending 12,000 a week, per rating 6 ward.
Higher strength wards cost more, and last for a shorter time.

Okay, now look at how much you want to ward. If we're talking about a
decent size complex, you'll need several wards. For a warehouse sized
complex, one ward will do one floor. Given a ten story building, you've
got ten wards. Ooops, 120,000 a week. And a rating 6 ward isn't that
strong anyway. Then you've got to pay the salaries of the mages and
shamans for those elementals and spirits...

Matrix security requires a mainframe at least. Mainframes run in the
hundreds of millions, but that's a more-or-less once-off cost. Then
you've got the _regular_ cost of upgrading the IC. Corps are subject to
SOTA rules as well, you know. And then there's the security deckers as
well.

Say a guard gets paid 40K a year. Well paid, but it's a dangerous job.
Their gear probably cost around another 20K, and needs reasonably regular
replacement. You train them, making them more effective. Giving that they
probably use virtual environments to train in, well, from the LS book,
those virtual environments have a per-session cost of about 3,000 per
person, if I remember right. If they do ONE training session a month
each, that's 36,000.

So far that's about a hundred thou a year EACH. Now, to maintain a
round-the-clock force of 20 guards, you need at least 70 available, three
shifts a day, allow for some to be unavailable right now. That's 7
million nuyen. (Okay, I'm not sure exactly how I got 10... it made sense
at the time)

And if you build a security system, and don't change it fairly often, it
might as well not be there. Sooner or later your plans are going to be
compromised, and you won't know about it. The only way to defeat that is
to upgrade and change the system moderately often. And it's NOT just a
once-off expensive... those toys do break down, you know.

THAT's how I get my figures.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 154
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 23:38:50 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 23 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >The cops are going to see three snipers, especially experienced
> >corporate-equipped snipers? How? Ruthenium fiber tech is cheap and very
> >useful. Or maybe they just use a city spirit for concealment. Easy
> >solutions.
>
> Astral survailence spots both, TC... :) A watcher spirt on Astral
> overwatch will notice 'em. If you're worried about the astral overwatch
> being knocked out, use a nature spirit or elemental or ally... the
> conjurer knows when they are attacked.
>
So you're saying that every street, store, restaurant, or nightclub, has
astral security????? Man thats a shit load of mages, conjuring a shitload
of spirits neh?


The ROO-MAN.
via his wife.
Message no. 155
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:28:20 -0500
>>The cops are going to see three snipers, especially experienced
>>corporate-equipped snipers? How? Ruthenium fiber tech is cheap and very
>>useful. Or maybe they just use a city spirit for concealment. Easy
>>solutions.

>Astral survailence spots both, TC... :) A watcher spirt on Astral
>overwatch will notice 'em. If you're worried about the astral overwatch
>being knocked out, use a nature spirit or elemental or ally... the
>conjurer knows when they are attacked.

Any Johnson that'll go to a meet without his own astral security is insane.
You think the corp will let you stand an ally spirit or a horde of
elementals around their man for even a second? That's as good as having a
gun drawn and pointed at him. Not conducive to a working relationship.

Also, what is your astral surveillance looking for? People with guns? Mean
people with guns? You'll find more than a couple of those on the streets.
People with guns thinking about killing you? That's a tall order even for
the most dedicated of allies or watchers. Probably won't be filled. People
with ruthenium fiber technology? Yep, a watcher'll know what that is.
Won't be able to see it from the astral, but that's ok. How about the limo
with one-way glass in front of the restaurant or cruising around the block
with the othre limos awaiting their passengers? Windows go down a hair,
there's a few whispers, and there's a few bodies. Windows go back up and
the limo drives off casually. Where'd the shots come from? Dunno. Astral
surveillance is fairly worthless unless it is a mage or a very powerful ally
doing it.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 156
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:28:23 -0500
>>Mind dropping the page numbers for this, I'd be very interested in finding
>>them. (I couldn't find them myself in a quick scan of the book and find most
>>of those estimates to be way out of realistic ranges). Plus, all the toys
>>built into the facility were costs figured into it at the time of building.
>>So those don't ever need to be paid for again. Then there's Matrix

>[snipped how Robert got his numbers]

First off, you guessed based on what the books make characters pay. Which
is a way to go about it. But lets look at this from a corporate perspective...

You make magical supplies, so you don't need to pay retail for them.
You have mages on salary so you don't have to pay them extra to handle their
wards.
You make all sorts of equipment so that comes really cheap.
You pay people a salary to do a job, not on a per job basis. Unless they're
hired for a specific job, but that's a rare circumstance.
You built your building with all your security toys, walls, doors, and
everything else. You don't have to pay for that again.
You have repair people on salary too, so that isn't as expensive as outside
contracting.
Your security guards are well-trained and well-equipped, most if not all
were brought up inside the corp. They come MUCH cheaper than contract
security (like KE), training and equipment is handled by the corp at little
to no cost. If you want your people trained by outside groups and equipped
by outside sources, then it'll cost you a ton.

This can go on for a ways. Your estimate would be correct for a corp that
contracted every single security bit out to another corp. I'll agree with
that. But no megacorp would do that, so that possibility is moot.


-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 157
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:28:26 -0500
>> Astral survailence spots both, TC... :) A watcher spirt on Astral
>> overwatch will notice 'em. If you're worried about the astral overwatch
>> being knocked out, use a nature spirit or elemental or ally... the
>> conjurer knows when they are attacked.

>So you're saying that every street, store, restaurant, or nightclub, has
>astral security????? Man thats a shit load of mages, conjuring a shitload
>of spirits neh?

Nah, he was saying that the corp wouldn't have astral security, would let
the runners have astral superiority without question when going into a meet,
and that the runner's astral security would be good enough to detect the
snipers. There's too much info for spirits to handle and too many things
that they couldn't see through. Limos would routinely have wards on them
besides the one-way glass. People with limos would routinely have
bodyguards with guns ready to kill anyone if they deemed it necessary.
People on the streets carry guns and are ready to protect themselves with
them if need be, some may be out to kill anyone. There's people all over
the place. Some are mad, some happy, most armed somehow. How's a watcher
spirit going to know which one's the sniper? Or which ones are? Will it
know by the weapon? A sniper can use a pistol as easily as a rifle. Will
he know it by the aura of the person? Nope. How will he know it? He
won't. At least until the first shots are fired.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 158
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 17:02:08 +1030
>Funny, those terms were present back at least to the 1920's (I'm thinking
>more along the lines of the mid-late 1800's). Fifty or sixty years apart
>from what you describe. And the infamous Untouchables were created solely
>to stamp out the Mafia presence in Chicago by several prominent businessmen
>in the area.

In Prohibition, they were aware of organised crime rackets, and they
SUSPECTED that it was a national organisation. But they never found any
connections between the groups in different cities.

There's a difference between believing all those organised rackets of
Italians out there are part of the Mafia, and proving it. (No offence,
Paolo)


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 159
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 17:02:20 +1030
>I'm telling you that even today (in the US, not Italy, which is VERY
>different) everyone from caporegimas to the lowliest number runner end up in
>jail. How? They get informed on.

Oh, yeah, I can remember a whole 3 cases of high-up Mafia types going to
trial for anything more than tax-evasion in the last decade. :) And
remember, they couldn't prove that the Mafia even EXISITED before the
late '70s. Up until that time, it was just 'The Mob'. It wasn't until the
'70s that they proved it was an international organisation.

And the exisitence of the Yakuza and the top-tier Triads has never been
PROVED, either... they've NEVER caught a top-rank Yak for being a
top-rank Yak.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 160
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 17:02:28 +1030
>> But the brand names of Renraku and Fuchi are worth big cash just the same as
>> Nike, actually more so in many areas. You may feel comfortable getting a
>> cyberarm from Bubba's Bargain Bunker, but I'll stick with the pro's.
>>
>Dudeth thou tookest the words right out of my mouth!

Ah... But Renraku and Fuchi don't make cyberarms. Renraku Cybernetics (a
wholly owned division of Renraku) do, but so do Suriyama, also a wholly
owned division of Renraku. Both compete against each other. In addition,
besides the 4 or 5 other cybernetic specialists out there in Renraku's
division, Ares, Fuchi, and Yametsu have lots of interest in it. And then
there's all the smaller-line companies... still megacorps, but not owned
by the Big 8. Some of these have vertical market reps bigger than any of
the Big 8. It happens. There's just too much competition around for
massive markups in most things, unless you go into price collusion. But
price collusion doesn't work with lots of suppliers... sooner or later,
someone's going to stop the collusion.



--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 161
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 17:02:40 +1030
>I'm not talking about 30 years old information I'm looking for through a
>Mind Probe, I'm talking about information that's an hour or less old. Easy.

Short term memory lasts minutes, not hours... and something not recorded
in mid-to-long term memory is gone forever. That's why people have
trouble remebering things after a night on the town... alcohol is one of
many drugs that inhibit that transfer correctly.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 162
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 17:02:54 +1030
>What obvious presence? It's a big club with a lot of rooms and a basement.
>It also could be owned by the corp, nightclubs come real cheap compared to
>businesses. All sorts of thing sthat you can do to screw over runners who
>don't do every single thing possible. And corps would know exactly what
>every single one of those things were.

The whole point of meeting in regular grounds are that you know the
typical patterns of people there at that time of day. Lots of rooms in a
nightclub?? *boggle*

>What if the corp owns the restaurant? Paid the chef for a favor? Passer-by
>sprays a pump of breath-freshener/cyanide before the plate/drink ever makes
>it to the runner. Better yet, use time-release poisons. Then you can make
>them do things before they die, or be nice and let them live knowing that
>they can be nailed now.

Oh yeah, and they can find a cure in that time too. And what if the
drinks get mixed up? Passer-by trips, cyanide freshner goes off in some
guy's face? You know, stuff-ups?

>>A mage can't bash through a sustained spell.
>They can't?

No. You can NOT ground through a sustained spell. Nor does sustaining a
spell open you up to the Astral plane. Go read your rules.

>>Spirits aren't too much of a problem for a prepared team.
>They aren't?

Nope.

>>And finally... No corp, not even Aztechnology, has all that many
>>magically active hit teams. And a corp mage isn't likely to be any more
>>powerful than a runner mage. Magic's the great leveler, after all. You
>>might end up losing your strike mage, whose training cost you in excess
>>of 5 million nuyen.
>
>Only takes one magically active hit team to do the job. A corp mage is more
>likely to be more powerful than a runner mage (resources matter to mages
>too). If you do things right (which any worthwhile corp team will) then you
>won't lose anyone. Shadowrunners do this all the time, the corps are better
>at it, they'll be able to do it just fine.

Jeez... Go read your rules, TC. In Awakenings, for example... Magic is
THE great leveler. Not many mages are fond of being on strike teams. They
don't like doing it, 'cause it's DANGEROUS. A corp mage is not likely to
be significantly more powerful than a runner mage.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 163
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 17:03:08 +1030
>>Basically, if you commit a crime in corp-town, then the only people you
>>have to worry about is that corp. No-one else is going to worry about you
>>for that incident.
>
>Except for those that the corp pays or has connections to. Stole that from
>Mitsuhama, eh? Got some friends with full-body tattoos and crysanthemums
>who'd like to speak with you.

No, they won't... they might want the item back, but you don't have it
anymore. And the Yakuza has a long tradition of not striking, ah,
intermedaries.

> Nailed Ares for some designs? That was going
>to be a new toy of the UCAS army, still might be if they can get to you fast
>enough.

Assuming Ares tell the UCAS about it. Not too likely, they'd rather get
it back themselves. But if they don't find you in about a day (not too
likely), then you won't have it any more... you'd have passed it on to
your Johnson. So what's Ares margin in coming after you?


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 164
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 17:13:10 +1030
>So you're saying that every street, store, restaurant, or nightclub, has
>astral security????? Man thats a shit load of mages, conjuring a shitload
>of spirits neh?

Nope... but every competent runner team would have some astral security.
Think next time, Roo Man.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 165
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 17:30:18 +1030
>You make magical supplies, so you don't need to pay retail for them.

No corp makes magical supplies... Mages make their own, or get
talismongers (which are basically mom-and-pop stores). And making it is
most of the cost, anyway.

>You have mages on salary so you don't have to pay them extra to handle their
>wards.
Mage salaries COST... :)

>You make all sorts of equipment so that comes really cheap.
Nope... If you make it, and don't sell it, you've effectively bought it
yourself. Even if you make it yourself, it represents the same amount of
money, through a combination of expenditure & lost income.

>You pay people a salary to do a job, not on a per job basis. Unless they're
>hired for a specific job, but that's a rare circumstance.
>You built your building with all your security toys, walls, doors, and
>everything else. You don't have to pay for that again.
>You have repair people on salary too, so that isn't as expensive as outside
>contracting.
You still have to repair and replace... see the above. Sure, your
expenditure might be 50%, but your lost income makes up the other 50%.

>Your security guards are well-trained and well-equipped, most if not all
>were brought up inside the corp. They come MUCH cheaper than contract
>security (like KE), training and equipment is handled by the corp at little
>to no cost. If you want your people trained by outside groups and equipped
>by outside sources, then it'll cost you a ton.

Training costs a fortune, TC... For example, training a US Air Force or
Navy pilot is estimated at a million dollars a pop. And infantry grunts
are about $400,000... It's an expensive thing.

The argument between outsourcing and in-house stuff revolves around all
these "hidden" costs. Trust me, it's not just what you pay out that
counts towards the bottom line.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 166
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:30:34 +0100
Not TopCat said on 19:38/22 May 96...

> >Three guys with sniper rifles attract attention. Sniper rifles are
> >expensive and highly illegal, and the cops will shoot first and ask
> >questions later.

Sniper rifles are illegal, yes, but on what grounds is the question that
popped up in my head... What is the *real* difference between a rifle for
long-range target shooting, and a sniper rifle? Nothing much, at least not
IRL...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Think about the times and places you've never known.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 167
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:30:34 +0100
TopCat said on 17:49/22 May 96...

> >Anyone -- with a SIN or without one -- in the UCAS would have basic human
> >rights, such as the right not to be killed.
>
> "That rotting corpse we found in the dumpster didn't have a SIN. Poor
> bastard had been shot twice in the face. Didn't anyone know he had the
> right not to be killed too?"

Sure, that's what would happen in isloated incidents. But you're not
telling me that, if loads of SINless people get killed every day just
because they are SINless, nobody is going to notice and take action.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Think about the times and places you've never known.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 168
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:43:39 +0100
In message <9605230038.AC25320@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>>You're talking high-value consumer goods, where the markup is accounted
>>for by the brand name. I wear Hi-Tec shoes, because they're a third of
>>the price of Nike and I don't care about brand name :)
>
>But the brand names of Renraku and Fuchi are worth big cash just the same as
>Nike, actually more so in many areas. You may feel comfortable getting a
>cyberarm from Bubba's Bargain Bunker, but I'll stick with the pro's.

Cartels have a nasty habit of falling apart. Not Fuchi's turn to bid on
that contract? Well, we got stiffed there: Ares got the UCAS, Renraku
the CAS, and Fuchi got Quebec. We could throw in a late bid and get the
UCAS contract...

Also, who designed the good old Sidewinder missile? Naval Ordnance Labs.
The US government. Used to be the military designed and built its own
toys. You start talking that kind of markup on a weapon system with a
cost price of a quarter-million sterling, and I guarantee it becomes
cost-effective for the UCAS to go in-house.

For consumer goods, maybe. For weapon systems, no. Too small a market,
*way* too sensitive an issue. In fact, many UCAS weapons would *have* to
be designed in-house: those Ares aircraft are great, until Ares decides
to cut off spares. Look at Israel/France in 1967 for a perfect example.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 169
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:14:45 +0100
In message <9605230628.AB14228@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>>[snipped how Robert got his numbers]
>
>First off, you guessed based on what the books make characters pay. Which
>is a way to go about it. But lets look at this from a corporate perspective...
>
>You make magical supplies, so you don't need to pay retail for them.
>You have mages on salary so you don't have to pay them extra to handle their
>wards.

You have mages on salary earning you money. While they're throwing up
wards they're not earning money. It's not a cost of handing over cash,
it's a cost of lost opportunity.

>You make all sorts of equipment so that comes really cheap.

Except you could have sold it at a very high markup, by your statements,
so again you have an opportunity cost.

>You pay people a salary to do a job, not on a per job basis. Unless they're
>hired for a specific job, but that's a rare circumstance.

And while they're doing this work, they aren't doing other jobs, aren't
subcontracting and pulling in cash, aren't training... Opportunity cost.

>You built your building with all your security toys, walls, doors, and
>everything else. You don't have to pay for that again.

And it depreciates year on year, needs maintenance, regular updates
(that computer system is two years old! It's an antique! I thought this
was meant to be a secure site!).

>You have repair people on salary too, so that isn't as expensive as outside
>contracting.

But then you can't supply them to others and earn that contract money.

>Your security guards are well-trained and well-equipped, most if not all
>were brought up inside the corp. They come MUCH cheaper than contract
>security (like KE), training and equipment is handled by the corp at little
>to no cost. If you want your people trained by outside groups and equipped
>by outside sources, then it'll cost you a ton.

No, not "little to no" cost. The cost is what you could have sold it
for. Training is *expensive* no matter how you handle it. British Army
basic training reputedly costs over a hundred thousand pounds per
recruit, and this is to produce a soldier with basic infantry skills and
military discipline but no real experience, not a highly-trained
SAS/Para/Commando type warrior. Add in cyber to that... then equipment,
barracks, pay and rations, and the fact that for every man on station
you need many more on the payroll, and suddenly Robert's figures look
downright reasonable.

>This can go on for a ways. Your estimate would be correct for a corp that
>contracted every single security bit out to another corp. I'll agree with
>that. But no megacorp would do that, so that possibility is moot.

On the other hand, you forget the opportunity costs, and that means his
estimate isn't as far adrift as you think. On manpower I think he's
being excessively conservative.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 170
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:40:23 +0100
In message <9605222249.AB18889@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>This is where we differ and greatly so. Money that doesn't pay directly to
>the corp immediately is not necessarily money lost. Money spent on a team
>to kill a runner team will pay off in the long run by making it more
>expensive to your rivals to hire runners to hit you. In the Aztlan
>sourcebook (and I'm sure that Corp Shadowfiles has this too) they mention
>such practices, but on a different scale. Aztechnology, when it wished to
>buy a corp, began a process that cost them 200 million nuyen without
>immediate return before they actually got the corp. Years later, corps fear
>being beaten to death in the market like that corp was and they fold much
>easier when Aztechnology comes knocking. That 200 million "lost" has paid
>off in the long run in big ways.

There you have a difference. Drop 200 million to acquire an asset, then
milk it: as against dropping pretty hefty sums to pile up corpses.

>Corps, even today, drop hundreds of thousands (millions aren't uncommon)
>into things that won't ever pay off in a direct manner. Like vacation time
>for employees, retirement accounts, travel expenses, security, and dozens of
>other things. They do pay off, just not in a direct "cash in my hands now"
>kind of way.

And that is exactly my point. Killing shadowrunners is (a) just not as
easy or as cheap as you seem to think, or they would all be dead: (b) I
still disagree strongly that this would have an enormous effect, unless
you have a very tight shadowrunner network. Realistically, how many of a
given city's runners would know that Team X had run against you, and you
had killed them for it? Unless you want to start providing details, and
then you start having press problems about "corporate murder teams"

>>All depends. "We leaked a story about the "theft" of a key project
a
>>while ago. Played the bear market on the shares, sold long when they
>>dropped and made a *fortune*, but it was justified under "security
>>considerations" - because the stock recovered when we proved the story
>>false. Of course we warned our major investors. The small guys? Too bad,
>>them's the breaks."
>
>"Then why is your former top researcher known to be working for the other
>corp now? That was the story that was 'leaked'. You're saying it isn't
>true? Oh, you've decided to change your mind now? The employee just left,
>huh? And you let him? Ok, yep, gotcha. I'll get right on publicizing that..."

"Here's Professor Brown in person, to make a statement."
(Magically-altered double of scientist makes speech praising his
company's security).
"Are there any further questions?"

>>What if I plant evidence, a few days after the run, that a rival runner
>>did my hit? I might even get paid twice: once for the job, again to take
>>the patsy out :) The corporation doesn't get vengeance, the runners who
>>actually did the job are still free, and you just made a set of enemies.
>
>And so did you, the patsy's friends will remember that your actions led to
>his death. You did cover your tracks with the corp though (assuming that
>you did so well enough that they can't figure it out, which is assuming a
>lot). If you didn't cover them well enough, then you're back to square one.

Well, gee, but a while ago you were saying how they would all sell me
out and accept the job to kill me anyway. TopCat, you have to back off a
little and think things through.

Either there is a close-linked shadow community or there is not. If
there is not, assassinating one team has no effect because almost nobody
else hears about it. "These guys died." "Why?" "I dunno, someone
shot
them. Must have annoyed someone." Without knowing who they had hit,
killing them sends no clear message. If there is no clear community,
setting up patsies is also a low-risk activity.

If there is, and they resent a runner setting up others to take a fall
enough to act on it, then why would they take money to kill other
runners? Him today, me tomorrow. If they do take jobs to hit other
runners, then why should they care overmuch about detail? "But it wasn't
me, I swear it!" "Sure, sure, Charlie. Nothing personal, Charlie."
<BLAM!>

Besides, how does the patsy - or his friends - ever find out it was
*you* who set him up?

>>Miss, hit the wrong person, or get team-members captured, and you have a
>>lot of explaining to do. Why are your heavily-armed soldiers in the UCAS
>>without permission? "Corporate death squads roam city!" bellow the
>>screamsheets. Yes, it happens all the time, but nobody gets proof.
>
>Are my heavily armed soldiers connected in any way to my corp? No. Do they
>fly the corporate colors and sing the company song as they shoot the town to
>pieces? No. Corps are not that stupid.

Let's see. Cyberware, all of Ares manufacture.
Genetic and fingerprint ID, subject is a registered Ares citizen: if you
have a usable credstick, you have your ID on file, and a nation can
break a fake SIN as easily as a corp.
Mindprobe, he's Ares. Okay, we never mindprobed him, everyone.

Then there's unit tattoos, personal effects, you name it. Yes you can
"clean" the unit before they go out, but Murphy guarantees you'll miss
something.

If you want deniability, hire shadowrunners.

>Once again, thing shave changed in 2057. It isn't as easy to sneak a bomb
>aboard a plane now, nor is it easy to sabotage a plane. Chem-sniffers and
>scanners of all sorts from cyberware to magical handle former threats like
>bombs and terrorism much easier than we can today. Good luck trying to
>break through THAT security to get a job done.

And the explosives are better, too: get some Composition 13 and have
fun. Get a job as maintenance crew long enough to do the job. It's
easier to buy SAMs on the black market, hell, you can buy *fighter
aircraft* today complete with armament if you wave enough dollars at
China or Russia. Then there's the whole happy field of magical
terrorism.

One 929 = hundreds of millions of newyen, hundreds of liability suits,
big loss of confidence.

>>Why would "the authorities" do anything? "The authorities" for
that
>>jurisdiction are the people who paid to "renegotiate his contract of
>>employment". The runners are in an area outside your control and all you
>>can do is issue a request for their extradition, which will be used to
>>trade for any outstanding warrants for your people.
>
>Runner commits crime in Arcology (somehow he managed). He escapes to UCAS
>territory. Corp asks UCAS for the criminal. UCAS says we can't find him.
>Corp puts a bounty on the runner's head. Within two weeks he is dumped on
>the corp's doorstep. Bounty paid, problem solved.

Assuming they know who to ask for. Assuming the bounty hunters take the
job. Assuming they can find the targets. Kill the first couple of bounty
hunters, and by your reasoning you're safe...

Also, one wonders about the legality of bounty-hunting outside the
jurisdiction in which you're wanted. "But, Officer, he's a wanted man in
Ares!" "Put the weapon down, sir, and let's see some ID!" By this token,
reciprocity demands that corporate citizens wanted for any offence in
the UCAS can be kidnapped and delivered, legally.

>>Some corps do this... It makes it more expensive to run against them. It
>>means there's a cachet to having done so and survived: it's a fast
>>ticket to reputatiton. The hottest youngsters want to play on
>>Aztechnology's lawn :) That can be a problem. You evolve runners fast,
>>and you are dealing with those who have talent, little to lose, no
>>reason for any restraint, and a loose grasp on reality. Pretty
>>dangerous.
>
>Reputation can and will get you dead. Either by you slipping up and
>bragging or by the gunslinger mentality runner who says he's hotter drek
>than you are and he wants to prove it. If the runner has that loose of a
>grip on reality, then he won't live to see his second run.

Reputation gets you the work, though: it's a two-edged sword. If nobody
knows what you can do, your chances of work go right down, as does your
pay.

And your entire case rests on most people in the shadows knowing who did
what to whom anyway, remember?

>>Other corporations keep their security inside the fence. It's very hard
>>to carry out a run against them, and they go all-out to stop you.
>>Succeed and get away, and unless you were careless, brutal or messy, you
>>walk. This time. No wasted effort hunting down shadow assets: you even
>>employ them, so you can build a file on them, so if you *do* need to
>>reel them in you can do so. But because, for the same amout of money,
>>you have more men manning the walls, the runners get in less often.
>>*That* is the aim of security.
>
>All corps keep security of that level (usually more than enough) inside
>their fences. The one's who go the extra yard do so both inside and out.
>As I mentioned before, corps seem pretty incompetent in your game.

No, they don't. They just aren't wasteful. You do need to review the
costs of security-type personnel and equipment, though, as well as gain
a little military experience. I might counterpoint that in your game,
you seem to neglect a lot of the checks and balances that smart runners
exploit in order to survive, and allow corporations far too much power.

You especially seem to forget that individuals who wish to exploit the
situations created will do so, in rather inventive ways, that the
corporation may not be able to control.

>>[snipped "You kill runners so I won't work for you because I'm afraid
>you'll kill me"]
>
>Only if they're working for the other guy do they worry about you killing
>them. If they work for you, they know that you treat your people well and
>pay well and they won't have a worry in their mind.

No, they don't. You kill runners. Period. Besides, now every assassin
who wants to muddy the trail leaves your calling card at the scene, and
you're being credited with rather more than you did. Including the
deaths of the last team who worked for you. Buzz is you had them killed
because one of them wore a pink shirt to a meeting.

And most runners *do not* know who they work for, or often what the
purpose of their run was. The job comes in, you do your utmost to figure
it out, and three months later you read a news article that makes you
think "Whafuck? *That* was what the job was about!"

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 171
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:40:23 +0100
In message <9605222249.AB18889@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>As far as the fixer knows it was some Johnson from Saeder-Krupp who ordered
>the run. It was really an Ares rep. So now S-K can't get shadow work done
>and they're wondering why. Two birds with one stone.

You'd just work on trust in a case like that?

Not back-check, find out who your Johnson was, verify what you were
being asked to do?

Your fixers must have a life expectancy measured in hours :) Even
shorter than their runners. After all, if you kill the runners, you get
a further effect by killing the fixer. "No, massa, I ain't setting up no
job 'gainst Aztechnology, they done killed three fixers who worked
'gainst them and I a scared fixer now..."

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 172
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 09:56:32 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 23 May 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >> But the brand names of Renraku and Fuchi are worth big cash just the same as
> >> Nike, actually more so in many areas. You may feel comfortable getting a
> >> cyberarm from Bubba's Bargain Bunker, but I'll stick with the pro's.
> >>
> >Dudeth thou tookest the words right out of my mouth!
>
> Ah... But Renraku and Fuchi don't make cyberarms. Renraku Cybernetics (a
> wholly owned division of Renraku) do, but so do Suriyama, also a wholly
> owned division of Renraku. Both compete against each other. In addition,
> besides the 4 or 5 other cybernetic specialists out there in Renraku's
> division, Ares, Fuchi, and Yametsu have lots of interest in it. And then
> there's all the smaller-line companies... still megacorps, but not owned
> by the Big 8. Some of these have vertical market reps bigger than any of
> the Big 8. It happens. There's just too much competition around for
> massive markups in most things, unless you go into price collusion. But
> price collusion doesn't work with lots of suppliers... sooner or later,
> someone's going to stop the collusion.
>
>
The only person who would drop their price would be the "no-name brand"
Cyberware, and you expect that. Well big shock that Renraku is in
competition with it's self! I can give you the example of Coca-cola in
australia, they own 90% of the market, who is their biggest competitor?
Kirks soft drinks, who owns Kirks? Coke! In fact the products are bottled
in the same factory, side by side. There are numerous cases identicle to
this, Where a corp. will spend a small fortune advertising against
itself, if your major opposition is almost as popular as you, and you own
your competition, then....... You make more money!!!! Geez, wake up and
smell the coffee! Price collusion happens now, lets be realistic, noones
going to burst the corp. bubble, everyone makes too much money as it
stands, only Cyril's Cyberware would try to underpin the biggies by more
than a couple of bucks, and do YOU want Cyril's 'ware?



The ROO-MAN,
via his wife.
Message no. 173
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 08:09:36 -0600 (MDT)
Robert Watkins wrote:
|
|*sigh* In "Corporate Shadowfiles" and "Aztlan Sourcebook", it is
|_stressed_ that the heavy security assets of even a Big 8 corp is only
|about a division or so of mechanised troops. Desert War encounters are at
|the company size, and at THAT, most megacorps have to commit almost all
|their heavy security to play the game. The only corporation that is an
|exception is Aztechnology, because they have the Aztlan army to play
|with. OTH, the "elite core" is of the same quality as the typical corp
|unit, and about the same size.

So, a perfect time for terrorists to attack a corporation would be when
their assets are at Desert Wars (except for AZ). Just a thought.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 174
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:19:33 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 23 May 1996, Gurth wrote:

> TopCat said on 17:49/22 May 96...
>
> > >Anyone -- with a SIN or without one -- in the UCAS would have basic human
> > >rights, such as the right not to be killed.
> >
> > "That rotting corpse we found in the dumpster didn't have a SIN. Poor
> > bastard had been shot twice in the face. Didn't anyone know he had the
> > right not to be killed too?"
>
> Sure, that's what would happen in isloated incidents. But you're not
> telling me that, if loads of SINless people get killed every day just
> because they are SINless, nobody is going to notice and take action.
>
Yup, happens every day, gangers, runners, people end up dead every day
only those with SIN's will get investigated, the SINless aren't even a
statistic, just a corpse in a dumpster.
If you have a hard time beleiving this just look at the murder rate in
cities like Washington D.C. or New York, then look at the conviction
rate, you have a better chance of getting away with murder than tax evasion.

The ROO-MAN.
via his wife.
Message no. 175
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 09:21:21 -0500
>Funny, those terms were present back at least to the 1920's (I'm thinking
>more along the lines of the mid-late 1800's). Fifty or sixty years apart
>from what you describe. And the infamous Untouchables were created solely
>to stamp out the Mafia presence in Chicago by several prominent businessmen
>in the area.
That last sentence is wrong. They were created to stop bootleggers.

>So I'd say that there were official reports containing those
>words LONG before the 70's and 80's. Would be nice to think that there
>weren't, but there were. Maybe not an official report to some schmoe on the
>street, but people knew and the right people knew better.

I rechecked my references. Yes, there was mention of the Mafia in the
20-30's, however, not in the public. Yes, there were the untouchables, but
they weren't anti-mafia, they were anti-bootlegger (almost exactly the same,
but with some differences) They wouldn't have been around if it wasn't for
prohibition. Now, if you doubt my sources, go read "Boss of Bosses" its
about Paul Castellano, written by the two agents that caused his downfall in
the Mafia (one did a lot of footwork and information gathering, the other
managed to get a bug planted in his house.)

I admit, I was incorrect, there was official information, but there wasn't
any proof. None of the people convicted ever admitted, or were proven to
have, connections to the mob, until more recently (mostly do to Castellano's
and Gotti's leadership. One let things slide, and the other tried to
tighten things down, but was to flamboyant.) If the mafia is so easy to
find and so weak, why are they still out there, and why are the FBI still
looking for them? Don't cast aside the Mafia so easily.

The Mafia in SR isn't going to be the same as the Mafia today, which isn't
the same as the Mafia of the 20's. Things are different now than they were
them, and are even more different than they would be in 2050. The thing
that will remain the same is that a Mafioso might be arrested, but he won't
speak, cause the Mafia will have him killed, and you may get people on the
street on to the stand, but they won't testify, cause the Mafia will have
them killed, same goes for info on who broke who's legs. Thats how the
Mafia works. If they were as sloppy as you seem to think, they wouldn't
have made it out of the 20'.
Message no. 176
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 09:39:41 -0500
>>You make magical supplies, so you don't need to pay retail for them.
>
>No corp makes magical supplies... Mages make their own, or get
>talismongers (which are basically mom-and-pop stores). And making it is
>most of the cost, anyway.
Wrong. Read _California_Free_State_. Specifically the stuff about the
northern crescent and why the Tir felt it needed to "protect" it. Corps
come in and take the magical goodies in the area for their own purposes.
Expensive, but not as bad as buying from a talismonger I'm sure.
Message no. 177
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:07:21 +0100
In message <9605221659.AC26388@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>
>>You have snipers outside Takuri's? Boy, that's going to make you
>>popular. "No, no, we're Fuchi Security. No, I can't show you any ID, I'm
>>here to execute a shadowrunner - erm, carry out a training exercise. Uh,
>>I left the permit for the rifle at home. No, Officer, they aren't cop-
>>killer bullets. Well, they are, but they're not for cops..."
>
>It's not like the snipers will be carrying a Fuchi banner around with them
>or use corp logo bullets. After about oh say, a day, the authorities will
>know that the bodies had no legal identities and were thought to be criminal
>elements responsible for several terrorist acts. Another vigilante act:
>justice or criminal in itself?

Firstly, you're assuming a corporation can set up a team of shooters
where it wants in a city? In a AAA area? I really, really think you need
to do some reality checking. You have Lone Star, local rentacops, and
the personal security of the assorted great-and-good who dine at this
place, all ignoring a group of riflemen? It ain't just the runners who
are there, that's the whole point of using a good place to meet: all
that security protects you, too.

Plus, everyone is now a little more tense. Who were those snipers there
to kill? Nobody is going to wait for the bullets to start hitting before
they act.

2057 is a paranoid time to live. Exploit other people's paranoia and
shelter behind their protection.

>
>>There's a reason to hold meets at a quality place.
>
>Sure and who is going to have mroe influece at such places? A runner team
>or a corp?

Sure, sure, Mr Ares Representative, you can gun down four of our
patrons, we know you'll do it with taste and decency and none of our
other diners will mind...

You don't get into these places by advertising you're a shadowrunner
team. You're a rock group meeting your new agent. An author and his
publisher enjoying a meal. A group of businesspeople relaxing.

And you still forget all those other diners and their own personal
security arrangements, who may object vigorously to your plans.

>>Also, who sets up this run? There's a fixer who is not going to be
>>happy. That fixer now has a rep of setting runners up to be killed. That
>>fixer may spread the word not to accept jobs from your corporation,
>>because fixers with repuations like that don't last long.
>
>Sorry the fixer got killed in revenge by the little brother of one of the
>runners. And who's to say he even really knows exactly who set them up?
>Corps can fake that kind of stuff really easily. Easier than runners can.

You suggested I didn't make corporations very smart. I'd reply that you
underestimate (a) the effect of dozens of different factions - other
corporations, other countries, powerful private individuals, even that
greasy little creep who wants your office - and (b) the wit of the
people being set up for this.

You also don't seem to realise how hard it is to penetrate a closed
culture. Hell, where I live we had the "6:57 Crew" of football
hooligans, who only disbanded when they got too old to enjoy it. The
police were never able to infiltrate them or even do much worthwhile
undercover surveillance, because they lived on one estate and the police
were very much the enemy.

Now, extend that to 2057. Yes, you can buy locals. They were seen
talking to strangers and now they're a lot richer. Not a good situation:
they sold out and didn't share. Corporations would have real trouble
gathering worthwhile information at Barrens level.

>>What's one of the biggest problems trying to crack organisations like
>>the Mafia? Omerta. The old code of honour, "nobody talks". Having a code
>>of honour can help you a lot. Doing good deeds helps you a lot: those
>>squatters you buy food for make handy scouts. "Hey, Jase, these two
>>suits were scoping for you."
>
>Organizations like the Mafia (in unrealistic worlds) have things like
>Omerta. Realistically speaking that's a romanticized idea that never really
>existed. The Yakuza and Triads are a different story, it's a part of a
>culture that dates back thousands of years. And we know that neither of
>those have corporate ties, right?

Try dealing with the 6:57 Crew. Even at levels like that, it holds. Try
persuading people on the Falls Road that it's in their best interest to
say who has an AK-47 and some Semtex hidden away "for our brave boys".
This is a fact of life of most organisations: cell structure and a
desire to keep quiet.

We have a Triad problem in Portsmouth of some scale, though they're
careful to keep it from breaking the surface. Basically, it's damn near
impenetrable. As a soldier, the Provisional IRA is one of my concerns,
and they work on the same system. There are plenty of examples where it
works. When it fails, the system comes apart.

>Having a code of honor is a nice thing, but it's hardly followed by all and
>rarely followed except by a few. Even today the Mafia gets nailed by
>informants. They've been getting nailed like this for @*** years now. It
>is nice to think that Omerta really means something to some people but it
>doesn't mean much to others (especially when they're facing jail).

Part of it is support and help. Do your time and come out to friends and
a job, knowing your family are being looked after. Talk, and put that
same family at risk, quite apart from your own life.

For every IRA informer, there are ten people sitting in prison with
their mouths sealed shut.

>>Ruthlessness is not always the best policy, especially long-term: if you
>>screw over everyone as hard as you can, they'll screw back: and there
>>are more of them than there are of you.
>
>Not even close. Shadowrunners are hideously outnumbered by corporate
>personnel of all types. One team isn't going to unite all the others under
>the banner of "they're going to kill us, would you die with us?". Most
>likely they'll find themselves alone and waiting for everything to go dark.
>Know how many top-level runners there are in Seattle? Guess. Fifty. Now,
>how many mercenaries and Desert Wars personnel and security personnel of the
>same class can a corp round up on short notice? Guess. I'll be generous to
>the runners and say around 200. Four to one odds aren't acceptable to
>anyone when you're outclassed all around. Especially since most of those 50
>won't join up because they don't want to lose their favorite cash cows and
>they know that once the fluff of the shadows is gone, they'll get more work
>at higher prices.

You're forgetting that there are eight major corps and thousands of
lesser ones. If you weaken yourself, they'll be on you in an instant.
Runners are deniable, this runner is on an Aztechnology deathlist, let's
offer him some very covert assistance to keep some of their assets busy
- maybe destroy some, too. While they're distracted chasing him...

The runner couldn't get C-13, but the corp has some it 'acquired' from
Fuchi, still in the original wrappers. Would you like some? Choose a
worthwhile target...

It is not "the corp" and "the runners", and that is what you seem to
forget. It is how the runners interact with *all* the corporations, with
the government, with the forces on the street in their neighbourhood.
Corporations watch each other constantly for opportunities to exploit.

>If you're a fixer would you rather cut off a runner team or a corp contact?
>Runner team in a heartbeat, there'll always be new talent out there but
>there won't always be the money to buy it.

Plenty of fixers around, too. Who would you want to run for, someone who
kept 'losing' talent? And both sides can kill you pretty easily. Fixers
want to live to spend the money.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 178
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 02:01:24 +0100
>>Desert War strike teams? Including the armour and artillery support? Too
>>right you'll pay through the nose... Sure, they could handle a runner
>>team (but I think a competent team could get away), but they 'll do so
>>much incidental damage that the bill will be through the roof!
>
>Now, how about a team around the level of Rangers or SEALs? Nice and quiet
>when they need to be. Top-level equipment and training. I'm not talking
>about sending tanks through Seattle, here. To do that would be insane. But
>a team like I am talking about would most likely do the job without a trace
>and come back all in one piece. Cost? You pay their salaries to do just
>what they did, but maybe you could throw them a bonus for a job well done.
>Incidental damage will be in the unnoticeable to minimal range.

You want to bet on that? Try Bravo Two Zero for an example. Or, as Sasha
very rightly pointed out, study the stellar success of 22nd Regt (SAS)
and 14 Int Cdo in suppressing the assorted Irish terror groups. If the
corporations can come up with something better than that combo, I'll be
amazed, yet the Provisional IRA continue to be an ongoing threat.

And let's see the sizes of these military units, from Corporate
Shadowfiles...

Ares - a light regiment.
Aztechnology - the wild card.
Fuchi - one company.
Mitsuhama - one company.
Renraku - None reported.
Shiawase - None
Saeder-Krupp - a battalion
Yamaetsu - none reported.

There's only so many of your troops who can be the bleeding-edge elite,
and I'd suggest a single company of soldiers is a very small unit from
which to form an absolute top-flight group. One company of good troops
might give you eight elite soldiers.

Finally, remember this: the UCAS is not automatically friendly to these
corporations, and has resources of its own: there aren't many powers who
can crack the encryption on BattleTac, but then there aren't many people
using it either. If a Zircon or Hitchhiker intercept suggests a
corporate military unit is off corp turf, wouldn't it be useful to
apprehend them, or at least recover a body or two? See what the
corporation is arming its troops with these days? Get me SEAL Team Nine,
we have a job for you boys...

Ditto for any other corporation, too. "Sir? Ares just mobilised the
Special Strike Force. My source said undercover urban work and saw them
on a plane for Seattle." A golden opportunity to cost Ares a fortune by
eliminating their prime unit.

After all, what can the corp do? Those soldiers were never there in the
first place. How can they protest about someone disappearing from a
place he was never in? Even if they knew who was responsible?

Sending troops into hostile country to find someone who tries hard not
to be found is a very hard job indeed, much harder than you seem to
realise. Us in Northern Ireland, the Israelis in the Occupied
Territories, as examples - and that was "home turf" where police support
and uniformed backup could be counted on. Yes, there are successes: but
PIRA and Hamas don't seem to be notably suppressed.

Stop the runners at the fence, or cut your losses and ignore them. The
alternatives are just too damn expensive.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 179
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:11:13 +0100
In message <9605230038.AB25320@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>>A 95% markup? In a competitive market? You jest, surely.
>
>Would be nice to think so, but I'm not. Especially when there's this wond=
er
>of the totally free market of SR (not even the US or Japan has this) called
>"collusion" whereby organizations can get together and set a higher price
>for an item or service across the board. Raising profits all around at on=
ly
>the cost of the consumer. It is so easy to tool automated lines to produce
>products in 2057 that almost all of the cost is wrapped up in design.

When you want 2,000 lightweight torpedoes at a cost price of £250K each,=

and your supplier wants a 95% markup, you build them in-house. Believe
me, you do.

If we tried that sort of price fixing, we'd find Russia undercutting us,
France would sneak in a last-minute cut-price deal on Impact and swipe
the deal, the US would leap in offering reconditioned Mark 46s cheap...

>>Your military is typically only a company or battalion
>
>The figure of a company or battalion is hideously low compared to the actu=
al
>military might of a megacorporation. It's more in the league of what most
>countries have. You might have, on hand, a company to play with. With mo=
re
>available should it really be needed. Plus, these people have better toys
>than most militaries could ever hope to have, as well as better training.

'Scuse me? Exactly where does a military force of battalions generate
profit?

Wars destroy stuff, consume assets, tie up production lines making
things to be blown up rather than things to be sold at a profit.
Corporations and war don't mix.

Better toys? Why? How? Desert Wars is one thing, but I'll guarantee as
someone with personal experience that *no* corporation has a blue-water
navy capable of open-ocean ASW, nor a nuclear submarine capability. The
UCAS would, but then it's a nation. Look at - for instance - Iran. They
bought Kilo-class diesel subs, have spent three years in training, and
still can't operate the boats effectively. Nobody to train against, no
corps of experience, none of those little details.

And that means, bluntly, the UCAS can close the sea lanes whenever it
wants to.

>>Three guys with sniper rifles attract attention. Sniper rifles are
>>expensive and highly illegal, and the cops will shoot first and ask
>>questions later.
>
>The cops are going to see three snipers, especially experienced
>corporate-equipped snipers? How? Ruthenium fiber tech is cheap and very
>useful. Or maybe they just use a city spirit for concealment. Easy solut=
ions.

So how come none of this works when runners do it? Lurking around with
sniper rifles in an AA or AAA area is not my idea of a good time,
corporate or not. And it isn't just a case of getting the shot, it's
getting out of the area too.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 180
From: Alex van der Kleut <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:38:41 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 23 May 1996, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> Better toys? Why? How? Desert Wars is one thing, but I'll guarantee as
> someone with personal experience that *no* corporation has a blue-water
> navy capable of open-ocean ASW, nor a nuclear submarine capability. The
> UCAS would, but then it's a nation. Look at - for instance - Iran. They
> bought Kilo-class diesel subs, have spent three years in training, and
> still can't operate the boats effectively. Nobody to train against, no
> corps of experience, none of those little details.

Well, actually I remember something in the Seattle sourcebook about Ares
sending one of their warships into Saettle harbor (or whatever little
town serves as port). The city was generally unhappy about this little
incident, as it showed how much power the corps DID have.

>
> And that means, bluntly, the UCAS can close the sea lanes whenever it
> wants to.

Maybe not quite whenever they want, but they do have a larger group. It
IS the UCAS who has a small carrier group parked outside of Bug City. AS
an aside, they screwed up in there by naming a carrier Wolverine. As far
as I know, carriers are named after either
a) famous navy battles (U.S.S. Coral Sea)
b) admirals (Nimitz)
c) famous ships (Enterprise)
d) misc (America)

Definately not animals, fish, states, etc.

Alex
Message no. 181
From: brett@***.orst.edu (Brett Barksdale)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 13:54:27 PDT
>Any Johnson that'll go to a meet without his own astral security is insane.
>You think the corp will let you stand an ally spirit or a horde of
>elementals around their man for even a second? That's as good as having a
>gun drawn and pointed at him. Not conducive to a working relationship.

I like your postings a lot, TC. They tend to be interesting and full
of useful ideas for my game. But you do have a tendency to think in
absolutes.

"Any Johnson that'll go to a meet...."

"Any shadowrunner is a shadowrunner because they *have* to. No
one would choose it willingly."

I think ya gotta be a bit more flexible with these things. :-)

For example, why would any Johnson that'll go to a meet without his
own astral security insane? You can't envision all sorts of Johnsons
out there? Even in your world, there have got to be more than just
the archetypical bigtime company-man Johnson w/ Negotation 6 and
Psychology 8 and with the full protection of the corp at all times.

What's wrong with sending a patsy out there with only enough information
to conduct the negotations with the runners? If he dies, so what? The
corp's got lotsa guys to replace him. I mean, I'm not sure that, in
general, you'd want to send a guy *worth* full astral backup out
as your Mr. Johnson. With the tech of 2057, there are very simple
ways to have a expendible employee handle the "point" while the real
brains behind the deal relay information to him or have given him
a complete file to give the runners. Granted, there will be times where
they would want their best man doing a face-to-face with a group,
but I can't see it happening *all* the time.

And regarding your statement (that came from a different posting
of yours) that no would ever be a shadowrunner willingly. That's
nonsense. How about your basic thrillseeker archetype? Not all
character concepts are based on cold, hard rational decisions,
you know... :-)

- Brett
Message no. 182
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 11:04:12 PDT
---------------Original Message---------------
At 06:07 PM 5/22/96 +1030, Robert wrote:
>>Yes, I did. That's why I replied to it. If a site is worth 51 million,
>>then it is potentially worth 510 million or more. Is it worth it to have 50
>>million in security measures on a project potentially worth 10 times that?
Plus, all the toys
built into the facility were costs figured into it at the time of building.
So those don't ever need to be paid for again. Then there's Matrix
security, but you've got deckers all over the system that you hired straight
from college (why buy from KE when you can get them at cost?). Then there's
magic security, which follows the same lines as matrix. Rigged security
system? Nice to have, not too expensive to set up and worth every penny, I
say go with it, but don't buy from KE, build it yourself and use your
personnel. Savings galore.

Many items only need to be paid for once. Then you need repair people
(which are pretty standard fare) and personnell to run the items. If you're
smart, you won't hire outside help in any of these areas unless absolutely
necessary. You'll go with your own homegrown people. Far more loyal and
they answer to you, not to you through their boss. So KE's estimates for
what they'd charge for security are going to be considerably larger than
what you'd be able to do with your own personnel. Why the hell would I use
them?

TopCat at the bottom...


----------End of Original Message----------
How do you get this value of the site being ten times the value
of the investment? I don't think this is realistic or possible
given that depreciation and costs have to be considered.

Buliding costs only have to be paid once. That is correct.
However, you don't take into account any maintenance costs
anywhere. It costs something to maintain the site and it isn't
cheap. This goes for all portions of the site magical and
technological.

As for why you hire outside contractors, you are not comparing
the same quality of people. The KE guards are elite, has had
training, and the experience to back up that training. You
compared this KE guard to a college graduate. Which is fine
except all you compared was salary to the expense of the
guards. What you didn't consider was the cost the training
and the cost of the training facility.

Corporations are going to look at the bottom line. For any
expenditure, they are going to run a Cost Benefit Analysis. They are going to compare all
the costs to all the benefits.
I think all costs and benefits are being taken into account
in these examples.

Patrick
Message no. 183
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 12:17:30 +1030
>On the other hand, you forget the opportunity costs, and that means his
>estimate isn't as far adrift as you think. On manpower I think he's
>being excessively conservative.

I dunno... but the set-up I gave was overly heavy on magic (would you
really ward every floor?). It probably evens out. OTH, that's only _one_
site, and a relatively small site at that. And I think the Matrix cost
might be overly low also... at least for a top-notch system. Most corp
sites can't afford to have dedicated, non-Matrix access security, after
all.



--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 184
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 09:42:57 GMT + 2:00
<snip>
@ The only person who would drop their price would be the "no-name brand"
@ Cyberware, and you expect that. Well big shock that Renraku is in
@ competition with it's self! I can give you the example of Coca-cola in
@ australia, they own 90% of the market, who is their biggest competitor?
@ Kirks soft drinks, who owns Kirks? Coke! In fact the products are bottled
@ in the same factory, side by side. There are numerous cases identicle to
@ this, Where a corp. will spend a small fortune advertising against
@ itself, if your major opposition is almost as popular as you, and you own
@ your competition, then....... You make more money!!!! Geez, wake up and
@ smell the coffee! Price collusion happens now, lets be realistic, noones
@ going to burst the corp. bubble, everyone makes too much money as it
@ stands, only Cyril's Cyberware would try to underpin the biggies by more
@ than a couple of bucks, and do YOU want Cyril's 'ware?

Actually the logic is that each 'company' targets a different
segment of the market. For instance where I work there is a company
that is considered upmarket and 'posh' their mark up on goods is 250-
350%. Next door is another company, this company addresses the lower
segment of the market, its markup is from about 100% - 200%. Both
retialers stock almost identical stock. As you said surprize, surprize
both are owned by the same company.




Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 185
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:07:51 -0500
At 01:40 AM 5/23/96 +0100, Paul wrote:
>In message <9605222249.AB18889@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
><topcat@******.net> writes
>>As far as the fixer knows it was some Johnson from Saeder-Krupp who ordered
>>the run. It was really an Ares rep. So now S-K can't get shadow work done
>>and they're wondering why. Two birds with one stone.
>You'd just work on trust in a case like that?
>Not back-check, find out who your Johnson was, verify what you were
>being asked to do?

He verified as S-K through and through. Corps have the resources to pull
this off easily.

>Your fixers must have a life expectancy measured in hours :) Even
>shorter than their runners. After all, if you kill the runners, you get
>a further effect by killing the fixer. "No, massa, I ain't setting up no
>job 'gainst Aztechnology, they done killed three fixers who worked
>'gainst them and I a scared fixer now..."

Being a fixer is as dangerous or more so than being a runner. They are also
generally smarter, more resourceful, and better connected than runners and
that's how they became fixers. Doesn't mean that all of a sudden they're
untouchable. And yes, fixers have died in my campaigns on a few occasions.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 186
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:06 -0500
At 05:02 PM 5/23/96 +1030, you wrote:
>>I'm telling you that even today (in the US, not Italy, which is VERY
>>different) everyone from caporegimas to the lowliest number runner end up in
>>jail. How? They get informed on.

>Oh, yeah, I can remember a whole 3 cases of high-up Mafia types going to
>trial for anything more than tax-evasion in the last decade. :) And
>remember, they couldn't prove that the Mafia even EXISITED before the
>late '70s. Up until that time, it was just 'The Mob'. It wasn't until the
>'70s that they proved it was an international organisation.

So there's three cases (that you remember) of high (VERY high) ranking Mafia
figures being nailed in the last decade. Now how many piddly
numbers-runners went to jail? How many bagmen? How many thugs? How many
B&E types? Bookies? Loansharks?

>And the exisitence of the Yakuza and the top-tier Triads has never been
>PROVED, either... they've NEVER caught a top-rank Yak for being a
>top-rank Yak.

No top-tier member of the Triads or Yakuza has been nailed (in the US)
because they aren't in the US if they're top-tier. Just like top-tier Mafia
members are in Italy and top-tier drug cartel members are in Central/South
America. So how much contact are we going to have with any of these?
Little to none unless we go through the respective governments of the
countries involved. Why should they let us do anything? (South America has
let the US do quite a bit, but that's been under the threat economic
sanctions that are far more crippling than most wars ever turn out to be).
They don't want us meddling in their affairs and in most cases we have no
right to do so. So the top-tier exists outside our (US) reach & public
knowledge.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 187
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:09 -0500
>The whole point of meeting in regular grounds are that you know the
>typical patterns of people there at that time of day. Lots of rooms in a
>nightclub?? *boggle*

Bathrooms, basements, backrooms, bars, seperate dancefloors, seperate floors
(each with all of the above) add up to a lot of rooms for a decent nightclub
in 2057. Dante's is HUGE.

>>What if the corp owns the restaurant? Paid the chef for a favor? Passer-by
>>sprays a pump of breath-freshener/cyanide before the plate/drink ever makes
>>it to the runner. Better yet, use time-release poisons. Then you can make
>>them do things before they die, or be nice and let them live knowing that
>>they can be nailed now.
>Oh yeah, and they can find a cure in that time too. And what if the
>drinks get mixed up? Passer-by trips, cyanide freshner goes off in some
>guy's face? You know, stuff-ups?

If the corp is incompetent enough to make the mistake, then they'll pay for
it. But I don't play incompetent corps. Maybe I'd let a mistake go by if I
wanted to let the players know what was going on. I'd have to be feeling
really generous though or have a lot planned along those lines. The corp
will have the cure for any poison they use.

>>>A mage can't bash through a sustained spell.
>>They can't?
>No. You can NOT ground through a sustained spell. Nor does sustaining a
>spell open you up to the Astral plane. Go read your rules.

You didn't say ground. You said bash.

>>>Spirits aren't too much of a problem for a prepared team.
>>They aren't?
>Nope.

Alienation, Accident, and Concealment are three of my faves.

>>Only takes one magically active hit team to do the job. A corp mage is more
>>likely to be more powerful than a runner mage (resources matter to mages
>>too). If you do things right (which any worthwhile corp team will) then you
>>won't lose anyone. Shadowrunners do this all the time, the corps are better
>>at it, they'll be able to do it just fine.
>Jeez... Go read your rules, TC. In Awakenings, for example... Magic is
>THE great leveler. Not many mages are fond of being on strike teams. They
>don't like doing it, 'cause it's DANGEROUS. A corp mage is not likely to
>be significantly more powerful than a runner mage.

In Awakenings they also mention average magical security for Aztechnology,
Saeder-Krupp, and Lone Star. Admittedly, they are three of the biggies, but
MAN are they awesomely powerful. More powerful and prepared than
Joe-Average shadowrunner and his friends. More numerous as well if they
decide to be. Some mages won't be fond of being on strike teams. They'll
be happier working out new formulae in the corp's labs. But as I mentioned
before, I believe (and it's an opinion based on current corporate practices)
that the corps will tailor magical assets for whatever purpose they desire
as soon as they can (which means as soon as the corp knows the asset-to-be
is magically active). If they need more combat mages, they'll make more
combat mages from the ground up with tailored scholarships and training
programs.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 188
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:13 -0500
At 05:30 PM 5/23/96 +1030, Robert wrote:
>>You make magical supplies, so you don't need to pay retail for them.
>No corp makes magical supplies... Mages make their own, or get
>talismongers (which are basically mom-and-pop stores). And making it is
>most of the cost, anyway.

As I believe Mike already mentioned, corps do in fact make their own magical
supplies.

>>You have mages on salary so you don't have to pay them extra to handle their
>>wards.
>Mage salaries COST... :)

Sure they do, but the mage also owes you 10 years at X salary because you've
paid for his training and private schools and perks and his parents made him
sign a document when he was 13 that forces him to do at least 10 years of
corporate service to repay this debt while collecting your base salary.

>>You make all sorts of equipment so that comes really cheap.
>Nope... If you make it, and don't sell it, you've effectively bought it
>yourself. Even if you make it yourself, it represents the same amount of
>money, through a combination of expenditure & lost income.

Not exactly, because it also shifts that money "lost" to security assets
gained, so it balances, if not adds (500 nuyen item normally sells for 5000
nuyen, you give it to security guards and it is still a 500/5000 nuyen item,
only now it's working for you, cost you 500 and gives you the benefits of
anyone else's 5000 nuyen item because you made it in-house).

>>Your security guards are well-trained and well-equipped, most if not all
>>were brought up inside the corp. They come MUCH cheaper than contract
>>security (like KE), training and equipment is handled by the corp at little
>>to no cost. If you want your people trained by outside groups and equipped
>>by outside sources, then it'll cost you a ton.
>Training costs a fortune, TC... For example, training a US Air Force or
>Navy pilot is estimated at a million dollars a pop. And infantry grunts
>are about $400,000... It's an expensive thing.

The US Armed Forces are notorious for overspending. I should know, I was in
the Army and experienced this wonderful training first-hand (MP's). Didn't
stay long because the situation didn't exactly agree with me and I wanted
the minimal term anyway (figuring, and rightly so, that if it worked, I
could re-up). The various corporations that supply the US Armed Forces are
making money hand-over-fist and don't show any sign of ever letting go of
the stranglehold they have now. Not like we'd want them to let go, because
we like 'em (I'm fairly perplexed at the whole of the situation myself, but
I know enough to know that the motherload of job security rests in the
contracts that those corps have).

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 189
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:16 -0500
At 12:30 PM 5/23/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>Not TopCat said on 19:38/22 May 96...
>>>Three guys with sniper rifles attract attention. Sniper rifles are
>>>expensive and highly illegal, and the cops will shoot first and ask
>>>questions later.
>Sniper rifles are illegal, yes, but on what grounds is the question that
>popped up in my head... What is the *real* difference between a rifle for
>long-range target shooting, and a sniper rifle? Nothing much, at least not
>IRL...

Then there's the silenced light/heavy pistol with a smartlink II and a
shooter with rangefinder eye mods. If the shot is going to be fairly
close-up why bother using a weapon made for shots from a quarter of a klick
away? Gurth's got a hold of the idea here :)

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 190
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:19 -0500
At 12:43 PM 5/23/96 +0100, Paul wrote:
>In message <9605230038.AC25320@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
>>But the brand names of Renraku and Fuchi are worth big cash just the same as
>>Nike, actually more so in many areas. You may feel comfortable getting a
>>cyberarm from Bubba's Bargain Bunker, but I'll stick with the pro's.
>Cartels have a nasty habit of falling apart. Not Fuchi's turn to bid on
>that contract? Well, we got stiffed there: Ares got the UCAS, Renraku
>the CAS, and Fuchi got Quebec. We could throw in a late bid and get the
>UCAS contract...

If only it were that cut and dried, then this would work. Ares may have
aspect #1 of a UCAS contract locked up, while Mitsuhama might have 2-5, and
Aztechnology 6, with the others falling as they may. There's a lot of
things that megacorps make (I mean a LOT of things) and almsot all overlap
somewhere. Where I work, we have computers leased from one source and
computers leased from another source (and I think there's really a few
sources out there). We also get other office equipment from other sources
and we have our own in-house stuff. Consulting firms write programs for us
and we write programs of our own as well as modify theirs to fit ours as
things change and have them modify ours as well. It isn't as simple as "We
buy everything from place X". Would be nice if it was, but things don't
work that way.

>Also, who designed the good old Sidewinder missile? Naval Ordnance Labs.
>The US government. Used to be the military designed and built its own
>toys. You start talking that kind of markup on a weapon system with a
>cost price of a quarter-million sterling, and I guarantee it becomes
>cost-effective for the UCAS to go in-house.

I'm not talking Sidewinder missiles, I'm talking nearly everything under the
sun. Missiles have a limited market. Militaries want them. There are much
fewer militaries out there than there are people who want canned vegatables
or cybereyes. In a limited market, costs will be much closer to base, the
demand is lower. In high-volume markets, cost will soar above base value
because the demand is far greater.

>For consumer goods, maybe. For weapon systems, no. Too small a market,
>*way* too sensitive an issue. In fact, many UCAS weapons would *have* to
>be designed in-house: those Ares aircraft are great, until Ares decides
>to cut off spares. Look at Israel/France in 1967 for a perfect example.

Exactly, but I'm not talking strictly weapons systems.


-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 191
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:22 -0500
At 02:14 PM 5/23/96 +0100, Paul wrote:
>>You make magical supplies, so you don't need to pay retail for them.
>>You have mages on salary so you don't have to pay them extra to handle their
>>wards.
>You have mages on salary earning you money. While they're throwing up
>wards they're not earning money. It's not a cost of handing over cash,
>it's a cost of lost opportunity.

They aren't going to earn you money anyway other than by maybe putting on
shows for people, most likely. They will represent quality assets by
handling those wards for you as well as by doing astral recon and combat
if/when needed. There is no opportunity lost there, it's just a question of
one type of asset over another and which will be worth more to the corp in
the long run.

>>You make all sorts of equipment so that comes really cheap.
>Except you could have sold it at a very high markup, by your statements,
>so again you have an opportunity cost.

Yes, but it will still be an asset because it will represent a portion of
your security assets. Now if there's an item worth (market value) 5000
nuyen that you build for 500 nuyen and you give to your guards, it still
represents 5000 nuyen worth of equip (because that's what it'd cost if you
bought a competitor's version). It only cost you 500 nuyen. Assets are
raised considerably at little cost this way. Don't think in flat nuyen
amounts, think in assets. Like a corp.

>>You pay people a salary to do a job, not on a per job basis. Unless they're
>>hired for a specific job, but that's a rare circumstance.
>And while they're doing this work, they aren't doing other jobs, aren't
>subcontracting and pulling in cash, aren't training... Opportunity cost.

You do both. Some people sit around the site doing their bits and you hire
out consultants of your own. Easy to do and standard corporate practice
even today. The corps play every market out there, to limit one's reach is
to cripple the corp.

>>You built your building with all your security toys, walls, doors, and
>>everything else. You don't have to pay for that again.
>And it depreciates year on year, needs maintenance, regular updates
>(that computer system is two years old! It's an antique! I thought this
>was meant to be a secure site!).

But that's all handled and not as security costs. They go under MANY
different headings in a balance sheet. Everything balances in it's own
little way. Once again it isn't a matter of nuyen spent here so that
checking account is lower, it's a matter of debiting accounts and crediting
others, while a debit can be good in some and a credit can be bad in others.
Accounting makes sense if you really look into it, but at a glance it is
pretty confusing.

>>You have repair people on salary too, so that isn't as expensive as outside
>>contracting.
>But then you can't supply them to others and earn that contract money.

You've got the manpower to do both, you're a megacorp.

>>Your security guards are well-trained and well-equipped, most if not all
>>were brought up inside the corp. They come MUCH cheaper than contract
>>security (like KE), training and equipment is handled by the corp at little
>>to no cost. If you want your people trained by outside groups and equipped
>>by outside sources, then it'll cost you a ton.
>No, not "little to no" cost. The cost is what you could have sold it
>for.

The "cost" is nothing. It's a debit somewhere and a credit somewhere else.
Everything balances, the basis of accounting. It may not balance in a
checkbook balance way, but it will on a corporate balance sheet.

>>This can go on for a ways. Your estimate would be correct for a corp that
>>contracted every single security bit out to another corp. I'll agree with
>>that. But no megacorp would do that, so that possibility is moot.
>On the other hand, you forget the opportunity costs, and that means his
>estimate isn't as far adrift as you think. On manpower I think he's
>being excessively conservative.

There is no such thing as opportunity costs in accounting.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 192
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:26 -0500
At 01:40 PM 5/23/96 +0100, Paul wrote:
>In message <9605222249.AB18889@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
><topcat@******.net> writes
>>[snipped my description of pgs. 70-71 in the Aztlan sourcebook]
>There you have a difference. Drop 200 million to acquire an asset, then
>milk it: as against dropping pretty hefty sums to pile up corpses.

They lost 200 million, not bought the asset for 200 million. After buying
the asset, they still lost 200 million. Which led to a great deal more than
200 million saved when other corps folded under threat of similar "attack"
from Aztechnology.

>And that is exactly my point. Killing shadowrunners is (a) just not as
>easy or as cheap as you seem to think, or they would all be dead: (b) I
>still disagree strongly that this would have an enormous effect, unless
>you have a very tight shadowrunner network. Realistically, how many of a
>given city's runners would know that Team X had run against you, and you
>had killed them for it? Unless you want to start providing details, and
>then you start having press problems about "corporate murder teams"

As many runnres as you wanted to know would know. Including runners under
your regular employ and (one would hope) runners under your rival's regular
employ. The press only knows what the corp wants them to know.

>>>All depends. "We leaked a story about the "theft" of a key
project a
>>>while ago. Played the bear market on the shares, sold long when they
>>>dropped and made a *fortune*, but it was justified under "security
>>>considerations" - because the stock recovered when we proved the story
>>>false. Of course we warned our major investors. The small guys? Too bad,
>>>them's the breaks."
>>"Then why is your former top researcher known to be working for the other
>>corp now? That was the story that was 'leaked'. You're saying it isn't
>>true? Oh, you've decided to change your mind now? The employee just left,
>>huh? And you let him? Ok, yep, gotcha. I'll get right on publicizing
that..."
>"Here's Professor Brown in person, to make a statement."
>(Magically-altered double of scientist makes speech praising his
>company's security).
>"Are there any further questions?"

"Yes. Why are you using a spell on that man to make him look like a
scientist. A quick astral peek tells that easily enough. These guys do try
hard though, don't they?"

>>And so did you, the patsy's friends will remember that your actions led to
>>his death. You did cover your tracks with the corp though (assuming that
>>you did so well enough that they can't figure it out, which is assuming a
>>lot). If you didn't cover them well enough, then you're back to square one.
>Well, gee, but a while ago you were saying how they would all sell me
>out and accept the job to kill me anyway. TopCat, you have to back off a
>little and think things through.

I never said they all would, I said some would. And it only takes one if
it's done right. Would your runner team go after a runner who set them up,
leading to the deaths of one or more members of the team? I know they would
from how you've described them.

>Either there is a close-linked shadow community or there is not. If
>there is not, assassinating one team has no effect because almost nobody
>else hears about it. "These guys died." "Why?" "I dunno,
someone shot
>them. Must have annoyed someone." Without knowing who they had hit,
>killing them sends no clear message. If there is no clear community,
>setting up patsies is also a low-risk activity.

The shadow community knows what they know based on what the corps let them
have. They'll pick up info on runs and they'll pick up info straight from
their Johnson. As to whether or not that info is true or completely so is a
question, but that's the way things go. Better to believe a maybe than to
deny it's credibility completely. The shadow community also will know what
it tells itself. There is no such thing as a secret. Somebody always knows
and invariably they'll let someone else know. By the time it gets to the
end of the chain, it may not be exactly what the person who started this
knew, but it'll be close.

There is no absolute "all runners know each other and live with each other
and are one big happy family" just like tehre is no absolute "no runner has
any idea that there are even other runners in the world". There's something
somewhere inbetween and every runner will have his own view on where that
in-between lies.

>>>Miss, hit the wrong person, or get team-members captured, and you have a
>>>lot of explaining to do. Why are your heavily-armed soldiers in the UCAS
>>>without permission? "Corporate death squads roam city!" bellow the
>>>screamsheets. Yes, it happens all the time, but nobody gets proof.
>>Are my heavily armed soldiers connected in any way to my corp? No. Do they
>>fly the corporate colors and sing the company song as they shoot the town to
>>pieces? No. Corps are not that stupid.
>Let's see. Cyberware, all of Ares manufacture.
>Genetic and fingerprint ID, subject is a registered Ares citizen: if you
>have a usable credstick, you have your ID on file, and a nation can
>break a fake SIN as easily as a corp.
>Mindprobe, he's Ares. Okay, we never mindprobed him, everyone.

Once again, you assume the corp to be stupid. Cyberware of unknown
manufacture. No registered identities under genetic, fingerprint, dental,
or anything else. Subject carried cash. If he's dead, then there's no mind
probe. He also has to be caught. And if you were listening to me earlier,
it'll be easier to catch runners than corp agents.

>Then there's unit tattoos, personal effects, you name it. Yes you can
>"clean" the unit before they go out, but Murphy guarantees you'll miss
>something.

Not true. A corp will miss nothing. If you want the players to know who
did it, then you make them miss something. If not, then the corp missed
nothing (which is as it should be, corps are smarter than runners and have a
lot better idea of how the real world works).

>>Once again, things have changed in 2057. It isn't as easy to sneak a bomb
>>aboard a plane now, nor is it easy to sabotage a plane. Chem-sniffers and
>>scanners of all sorts from cyberware to magical handle former threats like
>>bombs and terrorism much easier than we can today. Good luck trying to
>>break through THAT security to get a job done.
>And the explosives are better, too: get some Composition 13 and have
>fun. Get a job as maintenance crew long enough to do the job. It's
>easier to buy SAMs on the black market, hell, you can buy *fighter
>aircraft* today complete with armament if you wave enough dollars at
>China or Russia. Then there's the whole happy field of magical
>terrorism.

So you buy a fighter plane, you think about flying it by an airport, but
realize that jets scrambled and have locked and fired on you already. You
still aren't in range yet because you bought outdated equipment. Life was
short and expensive, see you the next time around. Airports are defended
like airbases in 2057. You don't have a prayer of attacking one and living,
let alone attacking one and actually doing damage. You've got some great
explosives but you can't get within a mile of the airport itself because
scanners picked it up and you're currently being shot at by sentry guns.
Have some faith in the corporations and in improved security measures. See
the NAGRL for examples.

>One 929 = hundreds of millions of newyen, hundreds of liability suits,
>big loss of confidence.

Also equals unreachable target.

>>Runner commits crime in Arcology (somehow he managed). He escapes to UCAS
>>territory. Corp asks UCAS for the criminal. UCAS says we can't find him.
>>Corp puts a bounty on the runner's head. Within two weeks he is dumped on
>>the corp's doorstep. Bounty paid, problem solved.
>Assuming they know who to ask for. Assuming the bounty hunters take the
>job. Assuming they can find the targets.

Which was the whole premise of the argument in the first place.

>Also, one wonders about the legality of bounty-hunting outside the
>jurisdiction in which you're wanted. "But, Officer, he's a wanted man in
>Ares!" "Put the weapon down, sir, and let's see some ID!" By this
token,
>reciprocity demands that corporate citizens wanted for any offence in
>the UCAS can be kidnapped and delivered, legally.

ID has the man as a UCAS citizen bonded and insured for bounty-hunting in
the UCAS. So he's legal. Which is the way this would go.

>And your entire case rests on most people in the shadows knowing who did
>what to whom anyway, remember?

No, nothing goes in absolutes. Which is something that I've been trying to
get across, but doesn't seem to ever make it.

>You especially seem to forget that individuals who wish to exploit the
>situations created will do so, in rather inventive ways, that the
>corporation may not be able to control.

The corp with more resources and personnel is going to be nailed by any
single situation? Triple-redundancy is more often than not the rule. Plan
A goes awry, plan B picks up where it left off, Plan C kicks in if B goes
bad, if C goes bad there's a problem and it will be handled per SOP (which
will be hammering the problem fast and hard). Why design anything with a
flaw if you don't have to? Because the players need ways to get into corps.
I don't feel that under most circumstances this will happen. Most runners
die in the process of attacking corp facilities. Some make it out. Why?
Because they had a lot of luck, help, and skill. If they get out, they
still have to worry about aftershocks.

>>>[snipped "You kill runners so I won't work for you because I'm afraid
>>you'll kill me"]
>>Only if they're working for the other guy do they worry about you killing
>>them. If they work for you, they know that you treat your people well and
>>pay well and they won't have a worry in their mind.
>No, they don't. You kill runners. Period.

Every corp kills runners so no corp should be able to hire runners by your
logic. Corps still hire runners, runners still die, so there's a flaw there
and a big one. Also, if you only kill runners who run against you, then why
will your regular runners care one bit? They don't run against you, they
aren't that stupid.

>And most runners *do not* know who they work for, or often what the
>purpose of their run was. The job comes in, you do your utmost to figure
>it out, and three months later you read a news article that makes you
>think "Whafuck? *That* was what the job was about!"

Sometimes that will be the case. Does the corp you ran on know this? Nope.
What the runners don't know can still hurt them.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 193
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:36 -0500
>You want to bet on that? Try Bravo Two Zero for an example. Or, as Sasha
>very rightly pointed out, study the stellar success of 22nd Regt (SAS)
>and 14 Int Cdo in suppressing the assorted Irish terror groups. If the
>corporations can come up with something better than that combo, I'll be
>amazed, yet the Provisional IRA continue to be an ongoing threat.

Sending in commandos into another country (that generally hates them and
rightly so IMHO) to attack members of that country would be like me trying
to sneak around Iraq on a commando mission. I don't look like the natives,
I don't act like the natives, I don't speak like the natives. I'm going to
be watched and heavily so. If I've been stationed there for years, I'll be
a known commodity or someone will be and they will have been paid extremely
well to let little bits of info slip. Maybe one of the members has an Iraqi
grandmother or something. And it doesn't have to be a member, it could be a
file clerk hundreds of miles away who let the op slip. Now if I send in
operatives who are commonly seen in the area, known members of that
community, they speak the language, and they follow the customs, then
things'll run nice and smoothe.

>And let's see the sizes of these military units, from Corporate
>Shadowfiles...

In CS, they also state that these are very conservative estimates and that
many (if not all) corps keep extra military-level assets around under
different titles. What is listed there is official on-the-books military.

>Finally, remember this: the UCAS is not automatically friendly to these
>corporations, and has resources of its own: there aren't many powers who
>can crack the encryption on BattleTac, but then there aren't many people
>using it either. If a Zircon or Hitchhiker intercept suggests a
>corporate military unit is off corp turf, wouldn't it be useful to
>apprehend them, or at least recover a body or two? See what the
>corporation is arming its troops with these days? Get me SEAL Team Nine,
>we have a job for you boys...

Yep, and the UCAS gov't knows Renraku's special ops teams. Uh-huh. Does
our military know where the best strike teams of other militaries are at?
Not a chance in hell. We might have a general idea of a couple here or
there and most of what we do know will be friendly. Will the UCAS and it's
severely limited resources (compared to 1990 US anyway) be able to handle
this sort of thing when dealing with a megacorp? To repeat myself, not a
chance in hell.

>Ditto for any other corporation, too. "Sir? Ares just mobilised the
>Special Strike Force. My source said undercover urban work and saw them
>on a plane for Seattle." A golden opportunity to cost Ares a fortune by
>eliminating their prime unit.

Ditto my previous reply.

>Sending troops into hostile country to find someone who tries hard not
>to be found is a very hard job indeed, much harder than you seem to
>realise. Us in Northern Ireland, the Israelis in the Occupied
>Territories, as examples - and that was "home turf" where police support
>and uniformed backup could be counted on. Yes, there are successes: but
>PIRA and Hamas don't seem to be notably suppressed.

Sending unfriendlies into the other guy's territory is always a bad idea if
they can't fit in with the unfriendlies. In a society as mixed as the US,
this is MUCH easier than it is in societies such as Ireland/England and
Israel/Iraq. Which is why we're a lot easier target for terrorist attacks,
we can't spot a terrorist just by looking at him. We also can't spot one by
whether or not he speaks the language or has the right accent or by how he
behaves. Extreme behavior might give a possibility of knowing, but extreme
behavior of all sorts is very common here. The UCAS is still extremely
varied when it comes to ethnicity and beliefs. At least as much as the US
is today. Hiding a corp operative is going to be a lot easier there than it
will be hiding a corp operative somewhere that he doesn't fit in easily
(e.g. an occidental in an oriental society).

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 194
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:40 -0500
>>>Three guys with sniper rifles attract attention. Sniper rifles are
>>>expensive and highly illegal, and the cops will shoot first and ask
>>>questions later.
>>The cops are going to see three snipers, especially experienced
>>corporate-equipped snipers? How? Ruthenium fiber tech is cheap and very
>>useful. Or maybe they just use a city spirit for concealment. Easy
solutions.
>So how come none of this works when runners do it? Lurking around with
>sniper rifles in an AA or AAA area is not my idea of a good time,
>corporate or not. And it isn't just a case of getting the shot, it's
>getting out of the area too.

Doesn't have to be sniper rifles. Silenced pistols work just fine, so do a
good deal of spells. Sniper rifles are nice only if you want to be @***+
meters away from the target. The corps have better resources than the
runners as well as better training, they'll be able to do things that
runners normally can't do. Getting away is only difficult if you're seen in
the first place. And don't tell me your runners haven't ever picked off
anyone in a high-security area...

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 195
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:50 -0500
>>It's not like the snipers will be carrying a Fuchi banner around with them
>>or use corp logo bullets. After about oh say, a day, the authorities will
>>know that the bodies had no legal identities and were thought to be criminal
>>elements responsible for several terrorist acts. Another vigilante act:
>>justice or criminal in itself?
>Firstly, you're assuming a corporation can set up a team of shooters
>where it wants in a city? In a AAA area? I really, really think you need
>to do some reality checking. You have Lone Star, local rentacops, and
>the personal security of the assorted great-and-good who dine at this
>place, all ignoring a group of riflemen? It ain't just the runners who
>are there, that's the whole point of using a good place to meet: all
>that security protects you, too.

Once again, you assume "shooters" to be people carrying around assembled
weapons (and sniper rifles at that) blatantly in a city (especially a AAA
seczone). A silenced pistol does the job just fine. So will throwing
knives, poisons (narcojects don't have to be non-lethal), and dozens of
other weapons. Spells work really well for this. And if your runners are
comfortable having a meet in front of a group of LS cops or rentacops or
private security, then I probably don't want to go to any meet at all with
them. Nothing like laying out a criminal act in front of the law to ruin
your day. Even AAA zones don't have cops every ten feet scanning every
window of every building and checking the insides of every limo that passes
by them for anything that might be suspicious. Does a smart cop ask a
senator to get out of his limo and be strip-searched because he's worried
about the senator maybe being criminal? No. He doesn't dare do anything
but smile and wave at him when he passes by. Now take this to a
busniessman, would he do that there? Hell no, their tempers and connections
can cost a security firm a job real quicklike. Now what if it's some
unknown quantity that never really comes here? They pulled up on
motorcycles and seem to have the swagger that only street-trash pick up.
They'll be watched and closely.

>Plus, everyone is now a little more tense. Who were those snipers there
>to kill? Nobody is going to wait for the bullets to start hitting before
>they act.

Once again, the snipers won't be out in the open, waving guns around and
asking people if they've seen the target. In the original example, they
know where the targets will be and who they are. They are hidden using all
available corporate resources. They aren't linked to the corp in any way.
They aren't necessarily carrying anything more than a pistol with a silencer
and that'll be concealed until it has to be used. They'll be looking just
like everyone else around the area, maybe they'll be in a limo or in a
window. Maybe they'll use spells instead of guns. Anyway I look at it, I
can easily (and cheaply) create a scenario that runners can't win for an
assassination. Would a corp know how to do this? Yes. That shouldn't even
need to be asked. If you want the runners to live, you have them miss a shot.

>You also don't seem to realise how hard it is to penetrate a closed
>culture. Hell, where I live we had the "6:57 Crew" of football
>hooligans, who only disbanded when they got too old to enjoy it. The
>police were never able to infiltrate them or even do much worthwhile
>undercover surveillance, because they lived on one estate and the police
>were very much the enemy.

Here's the key to this: the UCAS is not a closed culture. End of story.

>For every IRA informer, there are ten people sitting in prison with
>their mouths sealed shut.

An IRA member in the US will work differently than one in Ireland or
England, I can tell you that much.

>>If you're a fixer would you rather cut off a runner team or a corp contact?
>>Runner team in a heartbeat, there'll always be new talent out there but
>>there won't always be the money to buy it.
>Plenty of fixers around, too. Who would you want to run for, someone who
>kept 'losing' talent? And both sides can kill you pretty easily. Fixers
>want to live to spend the money.

I'd rather work for whatever one would have me. Every runner I've had has
gotten multiple fixers as soon as he could. I prefer to go with smart
fixers who'd drop a source of trouble for a solid corp link. They'll always
have quality work for quality pay. Unlike the one's who hang onto
almost-dead groups and bite the hand that feeds them.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 196
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:43 -0500
At 01:54 PM 5/23/96 PDT, Brett wrote:
>>Any Johnson that'll go to a meet without his own astral security is insane.
>>You think the corp will let you stand an ally spirit or a horde of
>>elementals around their man for even a second? That's as good as having a
>>gun drawn and pointed at him. Not conducive to a working relationship.
>I like your postings a lot, TC. They tend to be interesting and full
>of useful ideas for my game. But you do have a tendency to think in
>absolutes.

Gack...

>"Any Johnson that'll go to a meet...."

I play mean Mr. Johnson's and so has every other GM in our campaign. Your
points on sending in a disposable Johnson would have merit in any other
campaign though. No way is better, it's just which way you like more.

>"Any shadowrunner is a shadowrunner because they *have* to. No
> one would choose it willingly."

The part that you missed in my statement on this particular tidbit is the
most important part of all. I stated (in these) that they would be
shadowrunners only if they (felt like they) have to. Which means those
thrillseekers fit into this category.


-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 197
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:32 -0500
At 09:21 AM 5/23/96 -0500, Mike wrote:
>>Funny, those terms were present back at least to the 1920's (I'm thinking
>>more along the lines of the mid-late 1800's). Fifty or sixty years apart
>>from what you describe. And the infamous Untouchables were created solely
>>to stamp out the Mafia presence in Chicago by several prominent businessmen
>>in the area.
>That last sentence is wrong. They were created to stop bootleggers.

Actually, they were created as a direct result of the murder of a newspaper
reporter who worked for a paper owned by one of the people who would
eventually get the funds together to form the Untouchables. That is fact.
That they were also involved in bootlegging is merely part of it. Murder
was the key, as was the fact that acts such as that and assaults and
robberies and dozens of other crimes were being committed and scaring off
many people from coming to Chicago. Which was hurting the business magnates
who more or less owned Chicago. Who put pressure on their friends in the
justice system. And eventually were formed the Untouchables.

>I rechecked my references. Yes, there was mention of the Mafia in the
>20-30's, however, not in the public. Yes, there were the untouchables, but
>they weren't anti-mafia, they were anti-bootlegger (almost exactly the same,
>but with some differences) They wouldn't have been around if it wasn't for
>prohibition. Now, if you doubt my sources, go read "Boss of Bosses" its
>about Paul Castellano, written by the two agents that caused his downfall in
>the Mafia (one did a lot of footwork and information gathering, the other
>managed to get a bug planted in his house.)

There are many other sources than "Boss of Bosses", although I don't doubt
the validity of that particular source. Check out multiple sources and then
see how they compare to that book. I don't know the names of any of the
sources that I've looked up over the years on the subject of organized
crime, most were books borrowed from friends or from a library. This is how
I got what knowledge I have.

>The Mafia in SR isn't going to be the same as the Mafia today, which isn't
>the same as the Mafia of the 20's. Things are different now than they were
>them, and are even more different than they would be in 2050. The thing
>that will remain the same is that a Mafioso might be arrested, but he won't
>speak, cause the Mafia will have him killed, and you may get people on the
>street on to the stand, but they won't testify, cause the Mafia will have
>them killed, same goes for info on who broke who's legs. Thats how the
>Mafia works. If they were as sloppy as you seem to think, they wouldn't
>have made it out of the 20'.

They made it out of the 20's pretty easily but had a great deal of trouble
in the 30's and 40's. Come the 70's they were in their finest hour and the
beginnings of a major decline. Today they aren't even a shadow of what they
were in the 20's. In 2057 they would probably have hefty influece in
Chicago and the East Coast, but none on the West Coast (despite what Seattle
Sourcebook says, they would've been run out by the Triads, Yakuza,
Organizatsiya, and other groups long before then in a world where the UCAS
has only Seattle on the west coast). The number of criminal organizations
in the US is too big to allow for any one group to have absolute power and
the Mafia's finest days have come and gone already in the US in the 1990's.
In Italy, they'd probably be godlike. Just like the cartels in Aztlan (they
are the countries official leaders now and they control the largest corp in
the world), Triads in China, and the Yakuza in Japan. That's where the
organizations are based, that's where they'll have their greatest influence.
The UCAS is a source of a great deal of influence and cash to any and all of
these, but nowhere near as great as they have in their homes.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 198
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 05:08:46 -0500
>How do you get this value of the site being ten times the value
>of the investment? I don't think this is realistic or possible
>given that depreciation and costs have to be considered.

You have a current project with resources invested in it in the 50 million
range. This project is working on a final item or process that will be
worth a great deal more in the long run (10 times seems extremely limited
now that I think about it). If a research project is going to cost 50
million and yield a grand total of 50 million, then it is a waste of time
and resources. That's how I came up with that.

>Buliding costs only have to be paid once. That is correct.
>However, you don't take into account any maintenance costs
>anywhere. It costs something to maintain the site and it isn't
>cheap. This goes for all portions of the site magical and
>technological.

Yes, I did, later in the post (or maybe that was a later post, but it's
allaround the thread somewhere).

>As for why you hire outside contractors, you are not comparing
>the same quality of people. The KE guards are elite, has had
>training, and the experience to back up that training. You
>compared this KE guard to a college graduate. Which is fine
>except all you compared was salary to the expense of the
>guards. What you didn't consider was the cost the training
>and the cost of the training facility.

You don't consider Renraku's Red Samurai elite? Aztechnology's
Leopard/Jaguar Guards? I do. And they aren't going to be any less than KE's.

>Corporations are going to look at the bottom line. For any
>expenditure, they are going to run a Cost Benefit Analysis. They are going
to compare all the costs to all the benefits.
>I think all costs and benefits are being taken into account
>in these examples.

CBA is a good term, but it works in subtle ways. Check out my later posts
and you'll see where my thinking works along the actual lines of a CBA.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 199
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 19:24:51 +0100
In message <9605241008.AB00532@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>>So how come none of this works when runners do it? Lurking around with
>>sniper rifles in an AA or AAA area is not my idea of a good time,
>>corporate or not. And it isn't just a case of getting the shot, it's
>>getting out of the area too.
>
>Doesn't have to be sniper rifles. Silenced pistols work just fine, so do a
>good deal of spells. Sniper rifles are nice only if you want to be @***+
>meters away from the target. The corps have better resources than the
>runners as well as better training, they'll be able to do things that
>runners normally can't do. Getting away is only difficult if you're seen in
>the first place. And don't tell me your runners haven't ever picked off
>anyone in a high-security area...

Of course they have. It was neither easy, nor automatic, nor routine. If
you do it often enough you get caught. And it takes *time*: days,
sometimes weeks, of preparation. Bad enough for runners. For a corporate
strike team - remember, you only have so many - it means your military
does nothing except hunt down runners.

And there's a big problem with "better resources": those are unique
corporate resources, if they are so much better than anything runners
can get then it begins to be obvious that these are not shadowrunners.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 200
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 20:21:02 +0100
In message <9605241008.AC00532@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>>Cartels have a nasty habit of falling apart. Not Fuchi's turn to bid on
>>that contract? Well, we got stiffed there: Ares got the UCAS, Renraku
>>the CAS, and Fuchi got Quebec. We could throw in a late bid and get the
>>UCAS contract...
>
>If only it were that cut and dried, then this would work. Ares may have
>aspect #1 of a UCAS contract locked up, while Mitsuhama might have 2-5, and
>Aztechnology 6, with the others falling as they may. There's a lot of
>things that megacorps make (I mean a LOT of things) and almsot all overlap
>somewhere. Where I work, we have computers leased from one source and
>computers leased from another source (and I think there's really a few
>sources out there). We also get other office equipment from other sources
>and we have our own in-house stuff. Consulting firms write programs for us
>and we write programs of our own as well as modify theirs to fit ours as
>things change and have them modify ours as well. It isn't as simple as "We
>buy everything from place X". Would be nice if it was, but things don't
>work that way.

You also find that prices tend to drop fast. Look at DRAMs in the last
few months. Demand stayed high for a long time, therefore so did prices:
the chips were selling as they came out of the fabs. All of a sudden, a
few companies cut inventory and sold stock cheaper than market price,
because they had bought more than they needed. Suddenly the price fell
like a concussed falcon. I should know, I built my PC two weeks ago and
the memory chips - 8 megs of EDO RAM - cost me half what I'd been quoted
a few months before.

And the prices on most components don't vary by more than about 20%,
until you get to serious brand-names on assembled boxes. Compare the
price of a 3.5" EIDE 1.2gigabyte hard disk and see how much it varies:
not by much.

Raise the price in a cartel, and it becomes economic for someone to drop
their prices and grab market share: the more participants, the more
chance this will happen. It also becomes worthwhile for new players to
enter the market and undercut you.

>>Also, who designed the good old Sidewinder missile? Naval Ordnance Labs.
>>The US government. Used to be the military designed and built its own
>>toys. You start talking that kind of markup on a weapon system with a
>>cost price of a quarter-million sterling, and I guarantee it becomes
>>cost-effective for the UCAS to go in-house.
>
>I'm not talking Sidewinder missiles, I'm talking nearly everything under the
>sun. Missiles have a limited market. Militaries want them. There are much
>fewer militaries out there than there are people who want canned vegatables
>or cybereyes. In a limited market, costs will be much closer to base, the
>demand is lower. In high-volume markets, cost will soar above base value
>because the demand is far greater.

Provided supply is exceeded by demand. And that high margin is a "come
play in the market" call to any entrepreneur around. What happened
during the period of high DRAM prices? Everyone built fabs to make more
DRAM. Result, overproduction and a price crash. If DRAM isn't a
commodity, then what is?

>>For consumer goods, maybe. For weapon systems, no. Too small a market,
>>*way* too sensitive an issue. In fact, many UCAS weapons would *have* to
>>be designed in-house: those Ares aircraft are great, until Ares decides
>>to cut off spares. Look at Israel/France in 1967 for a perfect example.
>
>Exactly, but I'm not talking strictly weapons systems.

You're going to have trouble using canned vegetables as a lever in
negotiations :)

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 201
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 20:41:21 +0100
In message <9605241008.AB00532@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>At 02:14 PM 5/23/96 +0100, Paul wrote:
>>You have mages on salary earning you money. While they're throwing up
>>wards they're not earning money. It's not a cost of handing over cash,
>>it's a cost of lost opportunity.
>
>They aren't going to earn you money anyway other than by maybe putting on
>shows for people, most likely. They will represent quality assets by
>handling those wards for you as well as by doing astral recon and combat
>if/when needed. There is no opportunity lost there, it's just a question of
>one type of asset over another and which will be worth more to the corp in
>the long run.

Mages are useful for *far* more than just raising wards, and when
they're raising wards they're not doing anything else - even being
security, since they're rather distracted. Let's see...

Transport assistance (spirits/elementals with Movement power)
Construction work (Ram and Urban Renewal for situations where explosives
are inadvisable)
Pest control (area effect Slay Cockroach :) )
Major league medical work (paramedics able to use Sterilise spells
before field surgery, Treat and Heal spells immediately after surgery or
for casualties, Antidote Toxin/Cure Disease as alternatives to expensive
drug therapy...)
Lots of entertainment-related work, especially in simsense when magic
comes cheaper than some types of special effects

And that's a few minutes of thought. This all represents income. Turning
your back on income is never done lightly..

>>Except you could have sold it at a very high markup, by your statements,
>>so again you have an opportunity cost.
>
>Yes, but it will still be an asset because it will represent a portion of
>your security assets. Now if there's an item worth (market value) 5000
>nuyen that you build for 500 nuyen and you give to your guards, it still
>represents 5000 nuyen worth of equip (because that's what it'd cost if you
>bought a competitor's version). It only cost you 500 nuyen. Assets are
>raised considerably at little cost this way. Don't think in flat nuyen
>amounts, think in assets. Like a corp.

You had to make it, and you can't sell it. If you buy more assets than
you need, you're wasting money: all of this comes out of money that
could be profits, dividends or investment.

Unless you can point to quantifiable numbers, like proving that there is
a decrease in successful attacks on your facility whose net cost would
have exceeded the cost of the measures to prevent them, this stuff won't
happen.

>>And while they're doing this work, they aren't doing other jobs, aren't
>>subcontracting and pulling in cash, aren't training... Opportunity cost.
>
>You do both. Some people sit around the site doing their bits and you hire
>out consultants of your own. Easy to do and standard corporate practice
>even today. The corps play every market out there, to limit one's reach is
>to cripple the corp.

And you limit your reach by tying up large numbers of your best security
people in hunting shadowrunners.

>>And it depreciates year on year, needs maintenance, regular updates
>>(that computer system is two years old! It's an antique! I thought this
>>was meant to be a secure site!).
>
>But that's all handled and not as security costs. They go under MANY
>different headings in a balance sheet. Everything balances in it's own
>little way. Once again it isn't a matter of nuyen spent here so that
>checking account is lower, it's a matter of debiting accounts and crediting
>others, while a debit can be good in some and a credit can be bad in others.
>Accounting makes sense if you really look into it, but at a glance it is
>pretty confusing.

You don't have to tell me, I just costed a work package for the MoD.

This is why you have auditors and internal checks. Security goes under
security's costs, because other departments scream blue murder. "What do
you mean we have to fund the processor upgrade? The processor's fine!"
"But Security say they need to upgrade the IC-"
"Then Security can pay for it, it's their problem!"

When you have internal accounting systems, this is what happens. Or you
make security an overhead... in which case, they come under an entirely
different set of pressures.

>>But then you can't supply them to others and earn that contract money.
>
>You've got the manpower to do both, you're a megacorp.

But you have to feed, pay, clothe, train and equip that manpower, and
then the more of it you tie up internally the less profitable it
becomes. Of course, you could compromise and cut costs. Are all those
training exercises *strictly* necessary?

>>No, not "little to no" cost. The cost is what you could have sold it
>>for.
>
>The "cost" is nothing. It's a debit somewhere and a credit somewhere else.
>Everything balances, the basis of accounting. It may not balance in a
>checkbook balance way, but it will on a corporate balance sheet.

TopCat, you said we Europeans didn't understand American economics and I
guess you must be right. If you arm, train, equip, feed, house and pay a
man, he is a cost. If employees are effectively free, why did the US
invent the term "downsizing"?

>>On the other hand, you forget the opportunity costs, and that means his
>>estimate isn't as far adrift as you think. On manpower I think he's
>>being excessively conservative.
>
>There is no such thing as opportunity costs in accounting.

There's more to successful business than accounting: all an accountant
tells you is where the money is going, not how to make more of it.
Enterprise means seeing where you could be making money, and turning
possibile into actual profit.

And not considering opportunity cost damn near put my employer into
bankrupcy five years ago: we very nearly collapsed, as the meticulous
accounts proved. The accountants didn't help us get out of the situation
they caused and they had nothing to do with the subsequent recovery.


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 202
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 20:08:37 +0100
In message <9605241008.AC00532@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>At 01:40 PM 5/23/96 +0100, Paul wrote:
>>And that is exactly my point. Killing shadowrunners is (a) just not as
>>easy or as cheap as you seem to think, or they would all be dead: (b) I
>>still disagree strongly that this would have an enormous effect, unless
>>you have a very tight shadowrunner network. Realistically, how many of a
>>given city's runners would know that Team X had run against you, and you
>>had killed them for it? Unless you want to start providing details, and
>>then you start having press problems about "corporate murder teams"
>
>As many runnres as you wanted to know would know. Including runners under
>your regular employ and (one would hope) runners under your rival's regular
>employ. The press only knows what the corp wants them to know.

There aren't any "runners in regular employ" by any corporations in my
game: at least, not that the runners themselves realise. Different
missions from different sources each time.

>>"Here's Professor Brown in person, to make a statement."
>>(Magically-altered double of scientist makes speech praising his
>>company's security).
>>"Are there any further questions?"
>
>"Yes. Why are you using a spell on that man to make him look like a
>scientist. A quick astral peek tells that easily enough. These guys do try
>hard though, don't they?"

Try a plastic surgery spell - or just cosmetic surgery itself - and go
Permanent instead of Sustained on the magic. Nice and easy.

>>Well, gee, but a while ago you were saying how they would all sell me
>>out and accept the job to kill me anyway. TopCat, you have to back off a
>>little and think things through.
>
>I never said they all would, I said some would. And it only takes one if
>it's done right. Would your runner team go after a runner who set them up,
>leading to the deaths of one or more members of the team? I know they would
>from how you've described them.

But we're looking at very different worlds here. In your system, runners
take jobs on each other. In mine, that's unusual (not unheard of, just
unusual). I suggested a way of solving the problem of the ever-present
corporate retaliation in your game. It would indeed get you in a lot of
trouble in my game, but in yours it seems like a very sensible solution.
Corps do it to each other, why can't runners?

>>Either there is a close-linked shadow community or there is not. If
>>there is not, assassinating one team has no effect because almost nobody
>>else hears about it. "These guys died." "Why?" "I dunno,
someone shot
>>them. Must have annoyed someone." Without knowing who they had hit,
>>killing them sends no clear message. If there is no clear community,
>>setting up patsies is also a low-risk activity.
>
>The shadow community knows what they know based on what the corps let them
>have. They'll pick up info on runs and they'll pick up info straight from
>their Johnson. As to whether or not that info is true or completely so is a
>question, but that's the way things go. Better to believe a maybe than to
>deny it's credibility completely. The shadow community also will know what
>it tells itself. There is no such thing as a secret. Somebody always knows
>and invariably they'll let someone else know. By the time it gets to the
>end of the chain, it may not be exactly what the person who started this
>knew, but it'll be close.

Chinese whispers leads to complete garbage at the end of the chain.
Anyone with a vested interest throws in their own contribution, and you
end up with "Ares hiring Bigfoot to kill the team for kidnapping Elvis
from Fuchi" as the story.
>>Let's see. Cyberware, all of Ares manufacture.
>>Genetic and fingerprint ID, subject is a registered Ares citizen: if you
>>have a usable credstick, you have your ID on file, and a nation can
>>break a fake SIN as easily as a corp.
>>Mindprobe, he's Ares. Okay, we never mindprobed him, everyone.
>
>Once again, you assume the corp to be stupid. Cyberware of unknown
>manufacture. No registered identities under genetic, fingerprint, dental,
>or anything else. Subject carried cash. If he's dead, then there's no mind
>probe. He also has to be caught. And if you were listening to me earlier,
>it'll be easier to catch runners than corp agents.

Firstly, this agent has no records, no ID, no file.

So how does he buy lunch?

No IDs on file mean no credit rating means no credit. Going to be tricky
passing yourself off in public like that.

"Unknown manufacture"? Come on, reality check. One minute you're saying
these guys have absolute cutting-edge technology. Now it's all
untraceable and unidentifiable. If it's untraceable, it's no better than
what you can get on the street.

Secondly, you're assuming he's dead. Ten boxes != dead.

Thirdly, there are a lot fewer of these guys than there are
shadowrunners. They're going to be busy, doing dangerous work, and the
odds *will* catch up with them. I never said it would be *easy*: but you
cannot assume that this corporate team can operate for month after month
without ever losing a member.

>>Then there's unit tattoos, personal effects, you name it. Yes you can
>>"clean" the unit before they go out, but Murphy guarantees you'll miss
>>something.
>
>Not true. A corp will miss nothing. If you want the players to know who
>did it, then you make them miss something. If not, then the corp missed
>nothing (which is as it should be, corps are smarter than runners and have a
>lot better idea of how the real world works).

Corps also have backbiting, penny-pinching, internal feuds... If the
corporations are so smart, how come runners are ever able to get away
with anything? Mistakes happen. Corps aren't people: they're
agglomerations, and you only need one person of many to make a mistake.

>>And the explosives are better, too: get some Composition 13 and have
>>fun. Get a job as maintenance crew long enough to do the job. It's
>>easier to buy SAMs on the black market, hell, you can buy *fighter
>>aircraft* today complete with armament if you wave enough dollars at
>>China or Russia. Then there's the whole happy field of magical
>>terrorism.
>
>So you buy a fighter plane, you think about flying it by an airport, but
>realize that jets scrambled and have locked and fired on you already. You
>still aren't in range yet because you bought outdated equipment. Life was
>short and expensive, see you the next time around. Airports are defended
>like airbases in 2057. You don't have a prayer of attacking one and living,
>let alone attacking one and actually doing damage. You've got some great
>explosives but you can't get within a mile of the airport itself because
>scanners picked it up and you're currently being shot at by sentry guns.

Fly something like a Viggen or Gripen and you don't need an airfield,
you need a five hundred yards of highway. You don't go near an airport,
you don't go near a plane at all while you're in skin-paint range of ATC
radar, you stay low and quiet with your IFF in Mode III civil and behave
yourself. Five hundred miles over the Atlantic, you pick up your target.
Lock it up and fire at thirty miles. They'll never know what hit it,
just that it went down.

>Have some faith in the corporations and in improved security measures. See
>the NAGRL for examples.

Got it. Read it. Know a fair bit about explosives myself. NAGRL
specifically points out that - for instance - hermetic sealing works. It
also points out that C-13 cannot be detected by any known chem-sniffer.

And one vital point is that it's better to go around the security than
through it. You keep assuming that I'm going to attack in an obvious and
direct way, rather than find a chink. There are *always* chinks if you
look.

>>One 929 = hundreds of millions of newyen, hundreds of liability suits,
>>big loss of confidence.
>
>Also equals unreachable target.

You are kidding, right? There is no such thing as an unreachable target.
A few hundred tons of dural at forty thousand feet is not in a natural
state and doesn't need much to stop it. Have we eliminated terrorism
today? Nope. Will we be able to do so in 2057? An act every twelve hours
in the UCAS alone, according to NAGNA.

>>Assuming they know who to ask for. Assuming the bounty hunters take the
>>job. Assuming they can find the targets.
>
>Which was the whole premise of the argument in the first place.

If the corporation with all its powers can't find someone, a bounty-
hunter is going to have an interesting time, though his/her intel and
contacts will probably be better.

>>Also, one wonders about the legality of bounty-hunting outside the
>>jurisdiction in which you're wanted. "But, Officer, he's a wanted man in
>>Ares!" "Put the weapon down, sir, and let's see some ID!" By this
token,
>>reciprocity demands that corporate citizens wanted for any offence in
>>the UCAS can be kidnapped and delivered, legally.
>
>ID has the man as a UCAS citizen bonded and insured for bounty-hunting in
>the UCAS. So he's legal. Which is the way this would go.

Show a warrant for the guy being bounty-hunted, who produces an ID that
proves he is not that man and an alibi. This shades over into an
extradition hearing. If you can legally forcibly abduct based on
allegation, then the corporations may find the reciprocity
uncomfortable.

>>And your entire case rests on most people in the shadows knowing who did
>>what to whom anyway, remember?
>
>No, nothing goes in absolutes. Which is something that I've been trying to
>get across, but doesn't seem to ever make it.

You get very absolute about the infallibility of corporations, which is
a particular bugbear of mine, and you overlook competition and rivalry.

>>You especially seem to forget that individuals who wish to exploit the
>>situations created will do so, in rather inventive ways, that the
>>corporation may not be able to control.
>
>The corp with more resources and personnel is going to be nailed by any
>single situation? Triple-redundancy is more often than not the rule. Plan
>A goes awry, plan B picks up where it left off, Plan C kicks in if B goes
>bad, if C goes bad there's a problem and it will be handled per SOP (which
>will be hammering the problem fast and hard). Why design anything with a
>flaw if you don't have to? Because the players need ways to get into corps.
>I don't feel that under most circumstances this will happen. Most runners
>die in the process of attacking corp facilities. Some make it out. Why?
>Because they had a lot of luck, help, and skill. If they get out, they
>still have to worry about aftershocks.

Triple redundancy costs *how* much?

TopCat, we have *real* problems over here with people called the
Provisional IRA, and they still get through the best efforts of the
police, the Army, MI5, Gardai on secondment... Corporations are *not*
omniscient.

If you go in and blindly attack the enemy where he's strongest, you get
killed, and there I have no problem at all. But remember, a common
background in my campaign at least is a variation of "former company
security". These are the people who got the training, had the
experience, knew how things were done and still ended up in the shadows.
Don't you think they would have a good idea of what the best way to hit
a corporate site would be?

>>No, they don't. You kill runners. Period.
>
>Every corp kills runners so no corp should be able to hire runners by your
>logic. Corps still hire runners, runners still die, so there's a flaw there
>and a big one. Also, if you only kill runners who run against you, then why
>will your regular runners care one bit? They don't run against you, they
>aren't that stupid.

Every corp does *not* kill runners, in the sense of hunting them down
days or months later. Some don't see it as worthwhile. Some don't have
the resources.

And the message you wish to send, and the message that reaches the
streets, may not - often will not - coincide.

>>And most runners *do not* know who they work for, or often what the
>>purpose of their run was. The job comes in, you do your utmost to figure
>>it out, and three months later you read a news article that makes you
>>think "Whafuck? *That* was what the job was about!"
>
>Sometimes that will be the case. Does the corp you ran on know this? Nope.
>What the runners don't know can still hurt them.

But it destroys the deterrent value of assassinating people for running
against you. "You mean that SmallCo was an Aztechnology subsidiary? No,
we checked and it's independent!" Yep, really makes the point. Either
you let runners get away with hitting you, or you reveal that this
"small independent" is actually in your pocket.

And that assumes that the target of the run was the building or person
the runners attacked. What about those cases where the runners are
acting as a distraction, or as one part of a chain of dominoes, and they
have no idea that your corporation will be harmed or is even involved?
Yep, real deterrent effect there.

If runners are, as your game seems to suggest, basically desperate
people who would leave the shadows if they could, then do they really
have the luxury of saying "boy, that sounds dangerous, I don't want to
run against *them*?" If it was an effective tactic, *all* corporations
would do it, and shadowrunners would die out en masse. That runners
still exist suggest that it is not a wholly effective tactic. Magicians,
deckers, riggers and samurai don't grow on trees, and have a variety of
other careers open to them. If it was so bad, the samurai would leave to
be a nightclub bouncer, the rigger would deliver pizza, and the shaman
do special effects at the club the samurai watches the door for. Doesn't
pay so well, but hey, it's low profile and nobody tries to kill us.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 203
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 19:15:17 +0100
In message <Pine.SOL.3.91.960523143255.29904B-
100000@***.engin.umich.edu>, Alex van der Kleut
<sommers@*****.umich.edu> writes
>On Thu, 23 May 1996, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> Better toys? Why? How? Desert Wars is one thing, but I'll guarantee as
>> someone with personal experience that *no* corporation has a blue-water
>> navy capable of open-ocean ASW, nor a nuclear submarine capability. The
>> UCAS would, but then it's a nation. Look at - for instance - Iran. They
>> bought Kilo-class diesel subs, have spent three years in training, and
>> still can't operate the boats effectively. Nobody to train against, no
>> corps of experience, none of those little details.
>
>Well, actually I remember something in the Seattle sourcebook about Ares
>sending one of their warships into Saettle harbor (or whatever little
>town serves as port). The city was generally unhappy about this little
>incident, as it showed how much power the corps DID have.

Surface-warfare frigates are one thing, and I'd be surprised if
corporations didn't have a few: in my game at least, the seas in the
Pacific are a very dangerous place for merchant shipping. Valuable
cargoes and well-armed pirates...

ASW and AAW are very different games, and warships smaller than cruisers
do tend to specialise in one or two areas of warfare.

>> And that means, bluntly, the UCAS can close the sea lanes whenever it
>> wants to.
>
>Maybe not quite whenever they want, but they do have a larger group. It
>IS the UCAS who has a small carrier group parked outside of Bug City. AS
>an aside, they screwed up in there by naming a carrier Wolverine. As far
>as I know, carriers are named after either
>a) famous navy battles (U.S.S. Coral Sea)
>b) admirals (Nimitz)
>c) famous ships (Enterprise)
>d) misc (America)
>
>Definately not animals, fish, states, etc.

Remember, that's a US naming convention: this is the UCAS, who absorbed
what there was of the Canadian navy and a few of its traditions too. US
conventions have swung in the last ten or fifteen years, though.

<naval pedant mode on>
Right now... Carriers now are mostly named for Presidents (the latest
two Nimitzes are the Harry S. Truman and the Ronald Reagan - no, I am
not kidding).

Cruisers are battles now: Ticonderoga, Anzio, Mobile Bay, Antietam (all
CG-47s). Submarines used to be fish, were cities for a while, are now
confused (Seawolf and Conneticut, SSN-23 still unnamed). Boomers, the
Trident boats, revive the battleship tradition of being named for
states. Destroyers and frigates are politicians and admirals.
<naval pedant mode off>

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 204
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 96 13:46:13 +1030
>He verified as S-K through and through. Corps have the resources to pull
>this off easily.

Maybe they fool the runners... but if the corps "have the resources to
pull this off easily", then they have the resources to see through it as
well. So, you've just pissed of S-K, by planting that false evidence. Not
you, the runners, you the corp. Better hope Lofywr doesn't come down.

Look, it's REALLY simple... Sure, corps CAN do all these things. But it
doesn't make money for them. Believe it or not, it's better to own 10% of
a large pie than 30% of a much smaller pie. Corps work at increasing the
size of the pie, and industial _espionage_. They do NOT deal in
industrial destruction, and wasting runners isn't worth the effort.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 205
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 96 13:46:05 +1030
>>And let's see the sizes of these military units, from Corporate
>>Shadowfiles...
>
>In CS, they also state that these are very conservative estimates and that
>many (if not all) corps keep extra military-level assets around under
>different titles. What is listed there is official on-the-books military.

Which is why I gave my estimate of about a division of military-level
assets for a BIg Eight corp. That's a LOT larger than the regiment and
reinforced battalions the official figures give. But even so... a
division isn't THAT much when you spread it out around the world.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 206
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 96 13:47:13 +1030
>Yep, and the UCAS gov't knows Renraku's special ops teams. Uh-huh. Does
>our military know where the best strike teams of other militaries are at?
>Not a chance in hell.

Actually, yeah... during the Cold War, for example, the US knew where the
Russians trained and based their Spetnaz strike teams, and the Russians
sure as heck knew where Fort Bragg was, and where the various Marine
elite units trained. They probably even had a good idea of where the
SEALs were.

--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 207
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 96 13:47:29 +1030
>>>>A mage can't bash through a sustained spell.
>>>They can't?
>>No. You can NOT ground through a sustained spell. Nor does sustaining a
>>spell open you up to the Astral plane. Go read your rules.
>
>You didn't say ground. You said bash.

I meant ground... :)


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 208
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 17:29:39 -0700
Alex van der Kleut wrote:
> AS an aside, they screwed up in there by naming a carrier Wolverine. As
> far as I know, carriers are named after either
> a) famous navy battles (U.S.S. Coral Sea)
> b) admirals (Nimitz)
> c) famous ships (Enterprise)
> d) misc (America)
>
> Definately not animals, fish, states, etc.

Ahh! But, we do ..... pocket carriers and convoy escorts are given such
names by their first seagoing crew. The Navy only gives these a number
as their official name, unlike the capital class warships. Many of these
smaller vessels have been sold, from the moth ball fleets to corps
already. In the Carrib there is a fleet of LPHs and LSTs that provide
inter island commuter transport, and the parent corp was negotiating the
purchase of an LHA when I got out in '85.
Message no. 209
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 09:02:12 +0100
In message <9605241008.AC00532@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>>You want to bet on that? Try Bravo Two Zero for an example. Or, as Sasha
>>very rightly pointed out, study the stellar success of 22nd Regt (SAS)
>>and 14 Int Cdo in suppressing the assorted Irish terror groups. If the
>>corporations can come up with something better than that combo, I'll be
>>amazed, yet the Provisional IRA continue to be an ongoing threat.
>
>Sending in commandos into another country (that generally hates them and
>rightly so IMHO) to attack members of that country would be like me trying
>to sneak around Iraq on a commando mission. I don't look like the natives,
>I don't act like the natives, I don't speak like the natives.

Kind of like corporate military troops trying to sneak into a city's
Barrens... can you picture US Marines operating undercover in Los
Angeles? When those same Marines had to do similar work in Kiev last
month, Paris the month before that and Buenos Aires before that?

Limited numbers, a large world, many many missions. Remember, your
corporation covers most of the world. The more time your "elite strike
force" spends learning local languages and customs for every possible
area, the less time they have to actually train for elite strike work.
You end up with a team of spies, not soldiers, useful for hunting
shadowrunners and not much else. Someone who keeps their soldiers as
soldiers is going to kick their butts.

> I'm going to
>be watched and heavily so. If I've been stationed there for years, I'll be
>a known commodity or someone will be and they will have been paid extremely
>well to let little bits of info slip. Maybe one of the members has an Iraqi
>grandmother or something. And it doesn't have to be a member, it could be a
>file clerk hundreds of miles away who let the op slip. Now if I send in
>operatives who are commonly seen in the area, known members of that
>community, they speak the language, and they follow the customs, then
>things'll run nice and smoothe.

How many of these operatives do you have per city? How long does it take
to replace a casualty? Are you going to expose them to risk, week after
week?

>
>>And let's see the sizes of these military units, from Corporate
>>Shadowfiles...
>
>In CS, they also state that these are very conservative estimates and that
>many (if not all) corps keep extra military-level assets around under
>different titles. What is listed there is official on-the-books military.

And the case for having more is...?

Armed forces are expensive and don't represent a profit. You have them
ready in case of war, but war doesn't represent a profit either.

Given the cost of training, equipping and maintaining even a small
military force, you'd need a better reason than hunting lowlife
shadowrunners to keep a large standing army around: many corporations
don't have any military forces at all.

>>Finally, remember this: the UCAS is not automatically friendly to these
>>corporations, and has resources of its own: there aren't many powers who
>>can crack the encryption on BattleTac, but then there aren't many people
>>using it either. If a Zircon or Hitchhiker intercept suggests a
>>corporate military unit is off corp turf, wouldn't it be useful to
>>apprehend them, or at least recover a body or two? See what the
>>corporation is arming its troops with these days? Get me SEAL Team Nine,
>>we have a job for you boys...
>
>Yep, and the UCAS gov't knows Renraku's special ops teams. Uh-huh. Does
>our military know where the best strike teams of other militaries are at?
>Not a chance in hell. We might have a general idea of a couple here or
>there and most of what we do know will be friendly. Will the UCAS and it's
>severely limited resources (compared to 1990 US anyway) be able to handle
>this sort of thing when dealing with a megacorp? To repeat myself, not a
>chance in hell.

You are kidding, right? Maybe your military doesn't know what other
nations are up to. Ours does. Ours even monitors the terrorists. We went
to BS Amber for two weeks once: we found out later that was because a
certain Irish gentleman booked a taxi at East Midlands Airport, and that
meant he was going to be - or was - in the area, and the local units
reacted appropriately.

Corporations have economic power, but nations have military power. The
Corporate Court's combined might can crush any nation, even the UCAS,
but the UCAS could wipe *one* corporation out pretty thoroughly. Checks
and balances. This is one lever the Court uses to enforce compliance
with its "advice".

>>Ditto for any other corporation, too. "Sir? Ares just mobilised the
>>Special Strike Force. My source said undercover urban work and saw them
>>on a plane for Seattle." A golden opportunity to cost Ares a fortune by
>>eliminating their prime unit.
>
>Ditto my previous reply.

We did this *all the time* in Northern Ireland. Israel does it to
Hezb'Allah. Even Russia does it to the Chechens when it can (remember
Dudayev, killed by a missile homing on his mobile phone?).
>
>>Sending troops into hostile country to find someone who tries hard not
>>to be found is a very hard job indeed, much harder than you seem to
>>realise. Us in Northern Ireland, the Israelis in the Occupied
>>Territories, as examples - and that was "home turf" where police support
>>and uniformed backup could be counted on. Yes, there are successes: but
>>PIRA and Hamas don't seem to be notably suppressed.
>
>Sending unfriendlies into the other guy's territory is always a bad idea if
>they can't fit in with the unfriendlies. In a society as mixed as the US,
>this is MUCH easier than it is in societies such as Ireland/England and
>Israel/Iraq. Which is why we're a lot easier target for terrorist attacks,
>we can't spot a terrorist just by looking at him. We also can't spot one by
>whether or not he speaks the language or has the right accent or by how he
>behaves. Extreme behavior might give a possibility of knowing, but extreme
>behavior of all sorts is very common here. The UCAS is still extremely
>varied when it comes to ethnicity and beliefs. At least as much as the US
>is today. Hiding a corp operative is going to be a lot easier there than it
>will be hiding a corp operative somewhere that he doesn't fit in easily
>(e.g. an occidental in an oriental society).

The downside, of course, is that the quarry is so much better hidden
too.

Why do you think Britain is any sort of closed society? Apart from named
individuals, there aren't even movement restrictions between NI and the
mainland, let alone anywhere else. I was in Kent yesterday, served in
the hotel bar by a barman from Aberdeen and in the restaurant by a
Londoner whose parents had come from Hong Kong. Try comparing Horndean
(where I live), Leicester, and Brent for homogeneity: there ain't none.
Britain's a lot more ethnically diverse than, say, Nebraska :)

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 210
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 09:16:44 +0100
In message <9605241008.AC00532@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>>Firstly, you're assuming a corporation can set up a team of shooters
>>where it wants in a city? In a AAA area? I really, really think you need
>>to do some reality checking. You have Lone Star, local rentacops, and
>>the personal security of the assorted great-and-good who dine at this
>>place, all ignoring a group of riflemen? It ain't just the runners who
>>are there, that's the whole point of using a good place to meet: all
>>that security protects you, too.
>
>Once again, you assume "shooters" to be people carrying around assembled
>weapons (and sniper rifles at that) blatantly in a city (especially a AAA
>seczone). A silenced pistol does the job just fine. So will throwing
>knives, poisons (narcojects don't have to be non-lethal), and dozens of
>other weapons. Spells work really well for this.

You still have the problem that the security at this place exists to
protect the diners: a successful assassination of a customer in an
establishment like this means they're effectively out of business. Even
an indiscreet attempt could be extremely expensive.

You brought up the sniper team, I went to work on that. Now we're down
to pistols, throwing knives and Narcojects, which need you to be much
closer to the target, still involve an overt display to use, and are
less assuredly lethal.

I'd suggest that you understate the difficulty of carrying out an attack
like this. I wouldn't let a runner team do it without extensive
preparation: a corporation may have more resources, but it still faces
the same opposition. "Yup, yup, you can kill our diners. We didn't like
being in business anyway. Guess being unemployed sounds pretty good."

>And if your runners are
>comfortable having a meet in front of a group of LS cops or rentacops or
>private security, then I probably don't want to go to any meet at all with
>them. Nothing like laying out a criminal act in front of the law to ruin
>your day.

You let people overhear discussions in places like this? Boy, in that
case the runners just hang there anyway. Today a corporate takeover,
tomorrow Governor Schultz' re-election plans.

>Even AAA zones don't have cops every ten feet scanning every
>window of every building and checking the insides of every limo that passes
>by them for anything that might be suspicious. Does a smart cop ask a
>senator to get out of his limo and be strip-searched because he's worried
>about the senator maybe being criminal? No. He doesn't dare do anything
>but smile and wave at him when he passes by. Now take this to a
>busniessman, would he do that there? Hell no, their tempers and connections
>can cost a security firm a job real quicklike. Now what if it's some
>unknown quantity that never really comes here? They pulled up on
>motorcycles and seem to have the swagger that only street-trash pick up.
>They'll be watched and closely.

Beg your pardon? And the samurai still has her neon mohawk, and the
troll checks a Panther at the door? :)

You rent an Elite for the night, you wear your best suit, and you blend.
Blending in is a shadowrunner survival trait. You fit in. You look like
one of the rich and shameless that the security is there to defend,
rather than the low and nasty that they're defending against.

>>Plus, everyone is now a little more tense. Who were those snipers there
>>to kill? Nobody is going to wait for the bullets to start hitting before
>>they act.
>
>Once again, the snipers won't be out in the open, waving guns around and
>asking people if they've seen the target. In the original example, they
>know where the targets will be and who they are. They are hidden using all
>available corporate resources. They aren't linked to the corp in any way.
>They aren't necessarily carrying anything more than a pistol with a silencer
>and that'll be concealed until it has to be used. They'll be looking just
>like everyone else around the area, maybe they'll be in a limo or in a
>window. Maybe they'll use spells instead of guns. Anyway I look at it, I
>can easily (and cheaply) create a scenario that runners can't win for an
>assassination. Would a corp know how to do this? Yes. That shouldn't even
>need to be asked. If you want the runners to live, you have them miss a shot.

And, just suppose, you have a third party who has an interest in (a)
keeping those runners alive and (b) embarrasing your corporation. The
list of candidates is endless. It suddenly stops being so quick, simple
and easy, doesn't it?

>>You also don't seem to realise how hard it is to penetrate a closed
>>culture. Hell, where I live we had the "6:57 Crew" of football
>>hooligans, who only disbanded when they got too old to enjoy it. The
>>police were never able to infiltrate them or even do much worthwhile
>>undercover surveillance, because they lived on one estate and the police
>>were very much the enemy.
>
>Here's the key to this: the UCAS is not a closed culture. End of story.

The US isn't today either. So, you can walk around in central Los
Angeles, or Atlanta, or Washington D.C., at night, with no worries?
Those residents will be cheerful, helpful and friendly? You can drive a
rental car around in Florida safely? :)

I'd say there were closed subcultures within it, just like there are
here. The US may be open, just like we are, but that doesn't extend to
every district of every town.

>>For every IRA informer, there are ten people sitting in prison with
>>their mouths sealed shut.
>
>An IRA member in the US will work differently than one in Ireland or
>England, I can tell you that much.

Yeah, they'll be limited only by the distance they have to ship their
Semtex. How would you track PIRA members in Boston? Would you even be
able to? This is the cradle of NORAID, remember. The IRA would have
Senatorial backing. You're looking for someone with an Irish accent in
Boston? Lots'o'luck...

>>Plenty of fixers around, too. Who would you want to run for, someone who
>>kept 'losing' talent? And both sides can kill you pretty easily. Fixers
>>want to live to spend the money.
>
>I'd rather work for whatever one would have me. Every runner I've had has
>gotten multiple fixers as soon as he could. I prefer to go with smart
>fixers who'd drop a source of trouble for a solid corp link. They'll always
>have quality work for quality pay. Unlike the one's who hang onto
>almost-dead groups and bite the hand that feeds them.

Got to be alive to spend the money. If your fixer keeps getting teams
mysteriously dead at meetings, those good jobs look more like bait in a
trap than an incentive.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 211
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 13:05:30 +0100
TopCat said on 5:08/24 May 96...

I said:
> >Sniper rifles are illegal, yes, but on what grounds is the question that
> >popped up in my head... What is the *real* difference between a rifle for
> >long-range target shooting, and a sniper rifle? Nothing much, at least not
> >IRL...
>
> Then there's the silenced light/heavy pistol with a smartlink II and a
> shooter with rangefinder eye mods. If the shot is going to be fairly
> close-up why bother using a weapon made for shots from a quarter of a klick
> away? Gurth's got a hold of the idea here :)

I don't think you understood what I meant. I wasn't trying to get involved
in the "position snipers on the other side of the street" "no, just shoot
them from up close with a pistol" thing, and I also wasn't trying to prove
your point or tear it down.

I was just wondering out loud on what grounds a sniper rifle would be
declared an illegal firearm. To take a real-world example and apply the
UCAS laws to it, it would be illegal to own an M21 sniper rifle because
it is a _sniper_ rifle. Yet anyone with the proper permit would be able
to buy a Springfield M1A, which is for most intents and purposes
identical to the M21, except that it's sold to civilians as a target
rifle, whereas the M21 is (was) sold to the U.S. Army for use by snipers.

There must be some logic in it somewhere, and it probably has to do with
the 14S damage code...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
But to make the news and front page, you got to aim higher.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 212
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 12:09:58 -0400 (EDT)
On Sat, 25 May 1996, Gurth wrote:

> I don't think you understood what I meant. I wasn't trying to get involved
> in the "position snipers on the other side of the street" "no, just
shoot
> them from up close with a pistol" thing, and I also wasn't trying to prove
> your point or tear it down.
>
> I was just wondering out loud on what grounds a sniper rifle would be
> declared an illegal firearm. To take a real-world example and apply the
> UCAS laws to it, it would be illegal to own an M21 sniper rifle because
> it is a _sniper_ rifle. Yet anyone with the proper permit would be able
> to buy a Springfield M1A, which is for most intents and purposes
> identical to the M21, except that it's sold to civilians as a target
> rifle, whereas the M21 is (was) sold to the U.S. Army for use by snipers.
>
> There must be some logic in it somewhere, and it probably has to do with
> the 14S damage code...
>
Did you ever see a movie called Navy Seals? It shows a sniper up in a
tower, who takes a guy out through a wall. I think that the sniper rifles
in SR, are supposed to be similar to that 50 cal. I don't think that 50
cal weapons are even allowed in the us are they?

Cheers,
The ROO-MAN,
via his wife.
Message no. 213
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 14:39:33 -0500
>You also find that prices tend to drop fast. Look at DRAMs in the last
>few months. Demand stayed high for a long time, therefore so did prices:
>the chips were selling as they came out of the fabs. All of a sudden, a
>few companies cut inventory and sold stock cheaper than market price,
>because they had bought more than they needed. Suddenly the price fell
>like a concussed falcon. I should know, I built my PC two weeks ago and
>the memory chips - 8 megs of EDO RAM - cost me half what I'd been quoted
>a few months before.

The reason why computer-related advances don't lead to sustained higher cost
is simply due to the state-of-the-art. The marketing companies know what
the market will bear for any item in relation to it's impact on it's market.
Fifteen years ago, a pentium chip would have sold for millions, because it
would have been far and away the state of the art. I think we paid over
10,000 dollars for our first computer back in 1982 (an IBM PC with an
external 20 meg hard drive/tape drive that was larger than my home stereo
system's amplifier now). I can't be sure, might be more, might be less (I
was only 9 years old at the time we got it). But it was state of the art
for 1982. As the SOTA advances, the not quite SOTA becomes drastically
cheaper. It can drop in price dramatically over a very short rate of time
depending on how fast advances are made. That's why prices drop, because
they are no longer the SOTA. They do not drop due to overproduction except
in rare cases where the corp loses it's mind (the comics industry is a good
example of that and SOTA has had something to do with that as well).

>And the prices on most components don't vary by more than about 20%,
>until you get to serious brand-names on assembled boxes. Compare the
>price of a 3.5" EIDE 1.2gigabyte hard disk and see how much it varies:
>not by much.

But how much was a 1.2 gig hard drive around 4 years back? How much will it
be worth four years from now? SOTA will determine the price. Not whether
or not the company made too many of them.

>Raise the price in a cartel, and it becomes economic for someone to drop
>their prices and grab market share: the more participants, the more
>chance this will happen. It also becomes worthwhile for new players to
>enter the market and undercut you.

A new player comes into the market and he's charging less for his stuff than
the Big 8. First, they'll maybe make it maybe a month before they're bought
up. Second, during that month, they'll get no market share, despite their
better prices. Why not? I mean, it'd only make sense that they're selling
the product cheaper, they should get more biz. Because of marketing. A
tiny little newbiecorp can't hang with the big dogs in marketing. See
Microsoft for a good example and then realize that they're still nowhere
near the level of a megacorp in 2057.

>>I'm not talking Sidewinder missiles, I'm talking nearly everything under the
>>sun. Missiles have a limited market. Militaries want them. There are much
>>fewer militaries out there than there are people who want canned vegatables
>>or cybereyes. In a limited market, costs will be much closer to base, the
>>demand is lower. In high-volume markets, cost will soar above base value
>>because the demand is far greater.
>Provided supply is exceeded by demand. And that high margin is a "come
>play in the market" call to any entrepreneur around. What happened
>during the period of high DRAM prices? Everyone built fabs to make more
>DRAM. Result, overproduction and a price crash. If DRAM isn't a
>commodity, then what is?

DRAM became cheaper due to the NEED for more memory in computers and the
refusal of many buyers to dump the cash to upgrade. It was stalling the
market. Most memory manufacturers realized this and they dropped their
prices, because a lesser share of a huge market means a lot more cash than a
bigger share of a tiny one.

>>>For consumer goods, maybe. For weapon systems, no. Too small a market,
>>>*way* too sensitive an issue. In fact, many UCAS weapons would *have* to
>>>be designed in-house: those Ares aircraft are great, until Ares decides
>>>to cut off spares. Look at Israel/France in 1967 for a perfect example.
>>
>>Exactly, but I'm not talking strictly weapons systems.
>
>You're going to have trouble using canned vegetables as a lever in
>negotiations :)

Iraq needs everything they can get right now due to trade sanctions imposed
by the UN. Just last week, the UN decided to let them sell 1 billion
gallons of oil each month in exchange for food and medical supplies. Until
then, they weren't allowed to sell anything at all. Their economic and
political structures nearly cracked. If a country like the UCAS ever
started treading on corporate toes with shows of military or any other type
of might, they'd get sanctions imposed on them by the Corporate Court (which
exists to serve corps also, remember?). Now they don't get anything from
the megacorps. Renraku shuts down the telecommunications systems within the
UCAS. Fuchi turns off their cold fusion reactors. No power, you say? No
communications, you say? Corps decide that they won't sell their food
supply off to the UCAS for a while, you having problems with food riots?
Now, what was this about a show of power? Corps rule the world in 2057 and
they know it. So does the rest of the world.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 214
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 14:39:37 -0500
>Mages are useful for *far* more than just raising wards, and when
>they're raising wards they're not doing anything else - even being
>security, since they're rather distracted. Let's see...

Set up a ward with one mage. I'll make him a newbie, just for kicks (MR6).
He sets up a force 12 ward for a term of 30 days. The drain is 360L, so he
gets a headache. Maybe make it for 300 days, so he still takes a light
wound. Or 1000, or 1,000,000. It's all a light wound, so what the hell.
You just need to renew the ward whenever it's about to die. Sure it takes
him 12 hours for one force 12 ward, so what? He won't have to do it again
for another few millenia if he does it right. So this guy spends a couple
weeks and sets up a new ward every other day. That's 7 force 12 wards
that'll last an age. This will probably be done around the time that the
building is made, BEFORE all the goodies are moved in. Jump in and get what
you want while there's nothing there. You're welcome to all the nothing you
want.

>Transport assistance (spirits/elementals with Movement power)
>Construction work (Ram and Urban Renewal for situations where explosives
>are inadvisable)
>Pest control (area effect Slay Cockroach :) )
>Major league medical work (paramedics able to use Sterilise spells
>before field surgery, Treat and Heal spells immediately after surgery or
>for casualties, Antidote Toxin/Cure Disease as alternatives to expensive
>drug therapy...)
>Lots of entertainment-related work, especially in simsense when magic
>comes cheaper than some types of special effects

Yep, they can still do all that stuff after the few weeks of ward creation
have been handled. And tons more!

>And that's a few minutes of thought. This all represents income. Turning
>your back on income is never done lightly..

Turning your back on security is never done lightly either. That's often as
good as turning your back on profit, if not worse.

>>Yes, but it will still be an asset because it will represent a portion of
>>your security assets. Now if there's an item worth (market value) 5000
>>nuyen that you build for 500 nuyen and you give to your guards, it still
>>represents 5000 nuyen worth of equip (because that's what it'd cost if you
>>bought a competitor's version). It only cost you 500 nuyen. Assets are
>>raised considerably at little cost this way. Don't think in flat nuyen
>>amounts, think in assets. Like a corp.
>You had to make it, and you can't sell it. If you buy more assets than
>you need, you're wasting money: all of this comes out of money that
>could be profits, dividends or investment.

You didn't "buy" anything. That's they key. If you did buy it from anyone
else, it'd cost 5000. It cost you 500 to make. You give it to your guards,
giving them equivalent security equip to 5000 nuyen at a cost of 500 to you.
This would debit the warehouse 500 nuyen and credit security 5000 nuyen. It
is balanced by debiting the self-sale column by 4500. Everything there
balances out to 0. Which is how accounting works. You've got 5000 in
debits, 5000 in credits. The self-sale column is just there to show
balance. So you've now got +4500 in a solid asset.

>Unless you can point to quantifiable numbers, like proving that there is
>a decrease in successful attacks on your facility whose net cost would
>have exceeded the cost of the measures to prevent them, this stuff won't
>happen.

So why have security at all by your reasoning? This is what you're getting
at, right? Or should they just not be equipped? Or should they waste huge
amounts of corporate funds purchasing someone else's equip or guards?
Security is of utmost importance to megacorps. They deal with things that
are worth too much money to be messed with. Because you were lax on the
security budget, a runner team got in and nabbed some useless info. Which
isn't anything bad. But they also bumped into a lab project and destroyed
months of research on accident. If there was better security, this wouldn't
happen. Security will always be there and it will always be at the highest
level possible before the point of loss, which would be along the lines of
searching every single employee with every form of scanner as well as a full
physical search each and every time they wanted to leave or enter a room.
When time starts getting lost in unacceptable amounts, then there's a
problem. Until then, everything is fine.

>>>And while they're doing this work, they aren't doing other jobs, aren't
>>>subcontracting and pulling in cash, aren't training... Opportunity cost.
>>You do both. Some people sit around the site doing their bits and you hire
>>out consultants of your own. Easy to do and standard corporate practice
>>even today. The corps play every market out there, to limit one's reach is
>>to cripple the corp.
>And you limit your reach by tying up large numbers of your best security
>people in hunting shadowrunners.

Five guys is a large number of my best resources? If I'm a megacorp and
that's truth, then I'm in for a whole lot of trouble.

>You don't have to tell me, I just costed a work package for the MoD.
>This is why you have auditors and internal checks. Security goes under
>security's costs, because other departments scream blue murder. "What do
>you mean we have to fund the processor upgrade? The processor's fine!"
>"But Security say they need to upgrade the IC-"
>"Then Security can pay for it, it's their problem!"

It will run like this, security will have their own budget. But there will
be budgets for repair and SOTA maintenance as well. Just because your
company doesn't have such provisions doesn't mean that other corps won't. I
would suggest such a thing if you really are having probs like that.

>>>But then you can't supply them to others and earn that contract money.
>>You've got the manpower to do both, you're a megacorp.
>But you have to feed, pay, clothe, train and equip that manpower, and
>then the more of it you tie up internally the less profitable it
>becomes. Of course, you could compromise and cut costs. Are all those
>training exercises *strictly* necessary?

I have to feed and clothe these people? Why? They get paid, I'm sure they
can afford their own food and clothes. I train them and equip them, which
is no big deal, that's comparatively cheap. As for the training question,
it matters when you're a small corp in a small market. When you're a big
corp in nearly every market out there, can you afford to be a step behind
the other corps in training? Nope, you'll die if you even begin to think
so. Plus, if you lead the pack in training, you'll get more business. Go
with the corp who's using last year's techniques or the corp that is SOTA?
There's a no-brainer.

>>The "cost" is nothing. It's a debit somewhere and a credit somewhere
else.
>>Everything balances, the basis of accounting. It may not balance in a
>>checkbook balance way, but it will on a corporate balance sheet.
>TopCat, you said we Europeans didn't understand American economics and I
>guess you must be right. If you arm, train, equip, feed, house and pay a
>man, he is a cost.

He is a debit in some areas and a credit in others. He represents manpower
(credit). His salary goes on payroll (debit). I've already explained how
equipment balances and that training is something that a megacorp cannot
afford to skimp on. You lose money from payroll, you gain an asset that
represents your money spent. The corp owns the corp uniforms and equipment,
so those're corp assets (debits from self-sale and warehouse, credits
uniforms and equipment). Housing is a credit in several ways (most notably
because it keeps the personnel close by) and a debit in space in the
building (if they live in the building at all, which is fairly likely).
Cost to bank account matters very little in accounting. Assets are what
really matter. Highly trained, properly equipped, well-fed, clothed, and
housed security guards are a much greater asset to the corp than untrained,
unequipped, starved, naked, and homeless security guards. The latter will
cost payroll much less, but won't bring about anywhere near the results.
Nor will anything up to the point of "highly trained, properly...etc".
Costs might be a slight bit higher but the overall gain in assets is more
than worth it.

> If employees are effectively free, why did the US
>invent the term "downsizing"?

Downsizing has never (in any circumstance that I know of) led to a decrease
in security. It has led to a whole lot of early retirement programs and
pink slips for people too old, stubborn, or stupid to learn the new
techniques that the corp/org was using. I've seen this dozens of times and
I applaud the effort wholeheartedly. It is the cutting away of dead flesh
from the corp/org. We may've come up with the term, but downsizing has been
around for a LONG time under all sorts of guises. Retirement is the most
common. Most of the time, downsizing hits middle management and not
anything else, which can help and hinder depending on the size of the
organization and the purpose it serves. They cut away the middlemen and
either like the fact that higher-ups know things straight from source or
despise the fact that they now have to deal with the masses and constantly
so. Often it is the latter. Downsizing is also used as a way to weed out
people of the wrong affiliations (usually this follows an election). But,
once again, I have never seen it hit security.

>There's more to successful business than accounting: all an accountant
>tells you is where the money is going, not how to make more of it.
>Enterprise means seeing where you could be making money, and turning
>possibile into actual profit.

Accountants tell you where your assets are and where your liabilities are.
That is the single most important thing for any corp to know today and it
wouldn't change in a market the likes of shadowrun's. From those you know
the net worth of your corp and that's what stockholders like to see. At
least, it's what I like to see because it means more cash for me.

>And not considering opportunity cost damn near put my employer into
>bankrupcy five years ago: we very nearly collapsed, as the meticulous
>accounts proved. The accountants didn't help us get out of the situation
>they caused and they had nothing to do with the subsequent recovery.

Your market is a dangerous one to play in. And you only deal in that
market. Megas handle every market, most handle some markets more than
others, but they all have their fingers in every pie they can get a hold of.
They deal in limited demand markets as well as high demand markets and
min/max their efforts to produce net worth. Doesn't sound like your company
min/max'd for their market very well or they missed a trend that others saw.
That's not an accountant's fault, but he can tell you the end result.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 215
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 14:39:43 -0500
>>Once again, you assume the corp to be stupid. Cyberware of unknown
>>manufacture. No registered identities under genetic, fingerprint, dental,
>>or anything else. Subject carried cash. If he's dead, then there's no mind
>>probe. He also has to be caught. And if you were listening to me earlier,
>>it'll be easier to catch runners than corp agents.
>Firstly, this agent has no records, no ID, no file.

Exactly.

>So how does he buy lunch?

With cash (see above). Or someone buys it for him. Once he's back home,
all's well and he can eat whatever he wants when he wants. He could also
pack sandwiches or whatever else he felt like, because he's only going to be
out there for maybe a day or two.

>No IDs on file mean no credit rating means no credit. Going to be tricky
>passing yourself off in public like that.

He has cash and he only has to be in public for maybe a day or two, during
which time he will be as non-public as possible.

>"Unknown manufacture"? Come on, reality check. One minute you're saying
>these guys have absolute cutting-edge technology. Now it's all
>untraceable and unidentifiable. If it's untraceable, it's no better than
>what you can get on the street.

Just because it's cutting edge and built by the corp doesn't mean it's got
Ares branded on it at every nook and cranny. There's a definite benefit to
having anonymous-looking ware in your employees. Why would you ever want to
brand them (especially those with milspec ware) so as to be obvious?

>Secondly, you're assuming he's dead. Ten boxes != dead.

You assumed you could get a hold of him. Which wouldn't happen unless the
GM wanted a mistake to happen. Besides, death is just a cranial area bomb away.

>Thirdly, there are a lot fewer of these guys than there are
>shadowrunners. They're going to be busy, doing dangerous work, and the
>odds *will* catch up with them. I never said it would be *easy*: but you
>cannot assume that this corporate team can operate for month after month
>without ever losing a member.

This is where I disagree with you the most. There aren't near as many
shadowrunners as there are corp personnel. A lot of shadowrunners out there
are absolutely worthless. Some are damned good. Guards will be, at the
worst, average, while at their best they'll be the equal of any runner out
there. Plus, I'm not out there killing every shadowrunner in the city. I'm
just taking out a team or less. So I can have them outnumbered severely and
still not make a scene.

>>Not true. A corp will miss nothing. If you want the players to know who
>>did it, then you make them miss something. If not, then the corp missed
>>nothing (which is as it should be, corps are smarter than runners and have a
>>lot better idea of how the real world works).
>Corps also have backbiting, penny-pinching, internal feuds... If the
>corporations are so smart, how come runners are ever able to get away
>with anything? Mistakes happen. Corps aren't people: they're
>agglomerations, and you only need one person of many to make a mistake.

Shadowrunners don't have these? In my game they do, everyone does. That's
the way of the world. No eutopias for any one side, everyone's got
problems. Cyberpunk.

>Fly something like a Viggen or Gripen and you don't need an airfield,
>you need a five hundred yards of highway. You don't go near an airport,
>you don't go near a plane at all while you're in skin-paint range of ATC
>radar, you stay low and quiet with your IFF in Mode III civil and behave
>yourself. Five hundred miles over the Atlantic, you pick up your target.
>Lock it up and fire at thirty miles. They'll never know what hit it,
>just that it went down.

They'll know that there was lock, they'll know where from. You'll be
dead/caught. You want to be dead/caught with the lives of passengers on
your hands? The corp has insurance, they don't pay a cent. You nailed the
plane. You get to pay everything you have before insurance starts to kick
in. IFF and visual are also two different things. Plus, scanning
technology has improved beyond the simple "The beeper says he's a civilian"
level. Might work in 1996, but not in 2057.

>Got it. Read it. Know a fair bit about explosives myself. NAGRL
>specifically points out that - for instance - hermetic sealing works. It
>also points out that C-13 cannot be detected by any known chem-sniffer.

Now here's an interesting tidbit on that info. It came from a shadowsource
who said (and I quote) that C-13 wasn't detectable, as far as he knew, by
any chemsniffer on the open market. That part of the NAGRL also is for
2051. Six years before 2057 (current game time). I would feel extremely
confident that it would be detectable by now.

>And one vital point is that it's better to go around the security than
>through it. You keep assuming that I'm going to attack in an obvious and
>direct way, rather than find a chink. There are *always* chinks if you
>look.

There's only so many ways in. Limit those to the minimum feasible and cover
them well. SOP.

>Have we eliminated terrorism
>today? Nope. Will we be able to do so in 2057? An act every twelve hours
>in the UCAS alone, according to NAGNA.

Shadowrunning is more often than not an act of terrorism, I agree with you
(and the NAGNA) that it probably does occur at least once every 12 hours.
Terrorism by blowing up a building or shooting a crowd is one thing and
realitvely simple. Now, have the terrorists try and hit Fort Knox. Dead in
an instant. Have them hit the FBI headquarters at Langley. Dead in an
instant. Have them hit a military base. Dead in an instant. They won't
get past that kind of security. Megacorps have that kind of security available.

>>>Assuming they know who to ask for. Assuming the bounty hunters take the
>>>job. Assuming they can find the targets.
>>Which was the whole premise of the argument in the first place.
>If the corporation with all its powers can't find someone, a bounty-
>hunter is going to have an interesting time, though his/her intel and
>contacts will probably be better.

I am saying that a corp can find them relatively easily. And every bit of
info they have will go toward helping the bounty hunter. I still can't
believe that you actually think that a bounty hunter will have better intel
and contacts than a corp, though. Corps own the world, sahdows included.

>>>Also, one wonders about the legality of bounty-hunting outside the
>>>jurisdiction in which you're wanted. "But, Officer, he's a wanted man in
>>>Ares!" "Put the weapon down, sir, and let's see some ID!" By
this token,
>>>reciprocity demands that corporate citizens wanted for any offence in
>>>the UCAS can be kidnapped and delivered, legally.
>>ID has the man as a UCAS citizen bonded and insured for bounty-hunting in
>>the UCAS. So he's legal. Which is the way this would go.
>Show a warrant for the guy being bounty-hunted, who produces an ID that
>proves he is not that man and an alibi. This shades over into an
>extradition hearing. If you can legally forcibly abduct based on
>allegation, then the corporations may find the reciprocity
>uncomfortable.

First, you're assuming a lot here.
A) an officer wanders in while the bounty hunter is about to shoot you.
B) the officer won't know of the bounty hunter (they are well known to the
police)
C) the officer will take the felon's word over the bounty hunters
D) the shadowrunner's ID checks (it'll be subjected to a nice, slow search)

The bounty hunter would probably be intelligent, and at least enough so that
he'd know to wait a minute while that cop wandered away. The bounty hunter
probably would not face off with the runner in a visible manner. One minute
he's walking down the street, the next he's passed out with a dart-load of
gamma-scopolamine in his system (or a stunbolt echoing through his brain)
and being restrained (magemask and riot cuffs), hauled into the back of a
truck, and driven away. Then the runner gets a trial courtesy of the corp.
If it isn't the right guy, he gets a dose of laes and ends up in an alley
outside a bar, missing his wallet, credsticks, and memories.

>Triple redundancy costs *how* much?

A little bit of thought. Like 1 second through a tactics skillwire of any
decent level. Then the bit of time it takes to brief everyone.

>TopCat, we have *real* problems over here with people called the
>Provisional IRA, and they still get through the best efforts of the
>police, the Army, MI5, Gardai on secondment... Corporations are *not*
>omniscient.

That is one isolated instance and England is out of it's league. This next
little bit here is MNSO so take it as you will. England has no business in
Ireland. What they are doing I would consider a terrorist act in and of
itself. The Irish certainly do (or a good number of them anyway). As I
explained before, England and Ireland are homogenous in the extreme compared
to the US today. In 2057, that isn't any different. There's a solid
culture in each country with several subcultures, but that's it. In the US
there's literally hundreds of cultures and subcultrures. Things here are so
much different from things there that I can't even begin to explain the
entirety of it. In one of my other posts I go into a great deal of detail
in why England fails to hurt the IRA noticeably. They are fighting more
than one terrorist group (and definitely more than a shadowrunner team of 5
or so). They are fighting a country. England also did not create the Irish
like corps created shadowrunners. The two examples are not comparable. If
the IRA tried to hit Buckingham Palace, they'd get wiped out to a man before
anything detrimental happened, correct?

>If you go in and blindly attack the enemy where he's strongest, you get
>killed, and there I have no problem at all. But remember, a common
>background in my campaign at least is a variation of "former company
>security". These are the people who got the training, had the
>experience, knew how things were done and still ended up in the shadows.
>Don't you think they would have a good idea of what the best way to hit
>a corporate site would be?

Sure they would. For whenever they worked for the corp. Things change over
the course of a year (and if they know a secguard went rogue, then it'd
change over the course of a day). If it's been several years, things would
have changed a lot. Remember how the guards used to wear armor vests and
carry light pistols back then? They wear milspec armor and carry assault
rifles now. Security system used to be decker-ran from the Matrix? Now
it's rigged and strictly internal. Fences never used to be electrified.
There were only two mages there. They only keep about a dozen guards going
at a time. Etc. Things can and will change. Immutable security is bad
security.

>>>No, they don't. You kill runners. Period.
>>Every corp kills runners so no corp should be able to hire runners by your
>>logic. Corps still hire runners, runners still die, so there's a flaw there
>>and a big one. Also, if you only kill runners who run against you, then why
>>will your regular runners care one bit? They don't run against you, they
>>aren't that stupid.
>Every corp does *not* kill runners, in the sense of hunting them down
>days or months later. Some don't see it as worthwhile. Some don't have
>the resources.

Yes, every megacorp does nail runners after the run. Maybe not all the
time, but it would be safe to say that every single megacorp has done it at
least a dozen times in it's history.

>And the message you wish to send, and the message that reaches the
>streets, may not - often will not - coincide.

Why not? You put the message there. You own the shadows and they'll know
what is meant by an action.

>>Sometimes that will be the case. Does the corp you ran on know this? Nope.
>>What the runners don't know can still hurt them.
>But it destroys the deterrent value of assassinating people for running
>against you. "You mean that SmallCo was an Aztechnology subsidiary? No,
>we checked and it's independent!" Yep, really makes the point. Either
>you let runners get away with hitting you, or you reveal that this
>"small independent" is actually in your pocket.

Who says word on the street came from Aztechnology? It could very well have
come from SmallCo and should come from them.

>And that assumes that the target of the run was the building or person
>the runners attacked. What about those cases where the runners are
>acting as a distraction, or as one part of a chain of dominoes, and they
>have no idea that your corporation will be harmed or is even involved?
>Yep, real deterrent effect there.

What they don't know can and will be able to hurt them. Whether it goes
public, shadow, corporate, or not known to anyone will be answered by the
people making the decisions based on current circumstances.

>If runners are, as your game seems to suggest, basically desperate
>people who would leave the shadows if they could, then do they really
>have the luxury of saying "boy, that sounds dangerous, I don't want to
>run against *them*?" If it was an effective tactic, *all* corporations
>would do it, and shadowrunners would die out en masse. That runners
>still exist suggest that it is not a wholly effective tactic. Magicians,
>deckers, riggers and samurai don't grow on trees, and have a variety of
>other careers open to them. If it was so bad, the samurai would leave to
>be a nightclub bouncer, the rigger would deliver pizza, and the shaman
>do special effects at the club the samurai watches the door for. Doesn't
>pay so well, but hey, it's low profile and nobody tries to kill us.

Lots of samurai, magicians, riggers, and deckers work for corps. They make
tons of money a lot safer than they would shadowrunning (samurai less so
than the others). Oftentimes it's even legal for them to do what they do.
As I said before, shadowrunners are a special breed that can live a life of
a crime on the fringes of society. They will only do so if they (feel like
they) have to. Maybe they feel they need excitement. Maybe they just can't
do anything else. Maybe it is a way for them to get into the light and
coast through the rest of their lives. Some of them will end up on a corp
payroll, eventually. Some will run til they finally can't hack it anymore,
then they'll retire if they can or end up like the rest of the hasbeens if
they can't. Most of those will find out that they can't hack it anymore
when they don't manage to dodge that one last bullet or resist a spell.
It's not a pretty life, but it's not a pretty world.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 216
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 15:31:46 -0500
>> There must be some logic in it somewhere, and it probably has to do with
>> the 14S damage code...

>Did you ever see a movie called Navy Seals? It shows a sniper up in a
>tower, who takes a guy out through a wall. I think that the sniper rifles
>in SR, are supposed to be similar to that 50 cal. I don't think that 50
>cal weapons are even allowed in the us are they?

Yes, .50 weapons are available. The Desert Eagle is available in this
caliber from most gun stores. There are also rifles around that are
actually more powerful than the .50 snipers (try a Weatherby .460 magnum,
for pistols check out the .454 magnum Field Grade Casull). About the 14S
damage code, that is terribly inconsistent. High-power hunting rifles will
surpass sniper rifles for damage. I think that SR gave them a 14S was to
have a really powerful rifle available. A .300 Winchester round fired from
a Walther MA-2000 is exactly the same as the .300 Winchester round fired
from a hunting rifle. It doesn't gain an immense amount of power being
fired from the Walther in comparison.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 217
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 17:14:37 -0400 (EDT)
On Sat, 25 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

>
> >Raise the price in a cartel, and it becomes economic for someone to drop
> >their prices and grab market share: the more participants, the more
> >chance this will happen. It also becomes worthwhile for new players to
> >enter the market and undercut you.
>
> A new player comes into the market and he's charging less for his stuff than
> the Big 8. First, they'll maybe make it maybe a month before they're bought
> up. Second, during that month, they'll get no market share, despite their
> better prices. Why not? I mean, it'd only make sense that they're selling
> the product cheaper, they should get more biz. Because of marketing. A
> tiny little newbiecorp can't hang with the big dogs in marketing. See
> Microsoft for a good example and then realize that they're still nowhere
> near the level of a megacorp in 2057.
>
Sounds like a job for Shadow runners!! Thats the kind of thing we do. Oh,
they're undercutting us? send in a team to sabotage their business, it
could be done in any of a lot of ways but they would be run out of
business, and it would probably be us who did it!


Cheers,
The ROO-MAN,
via his wife.
Message no. 218
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 17:24:51 -0400 (EDT)
Okay, I'm not going to reiterate all of the previous postings on this
topic, simply because we don't have the space. But what I am going to do is
give you some of my own ideas on this (seems you're getting something of
a manifesto anyway, TC :D).

Of course the Corps track down any Shadowrunners that they can find, and
terminate them with extreme prejudice (I love that phrase!). That's why
runners have to live in places like the Barrens. I personally can't abide
the kinds of runners who are living in high-class neighbourhoods in
swanky mansions, etc, etc...I mean, the only way they could be doing that
would be by using a fake SIN, and no SIN is that good. And how long do
you think they could live there on purely illegal earnings anyway? How
long do you REALLY think it would take for the IRS (or the 2057
equivalent) to start crawling up their ass with a microscope?

So the runners are all living in the Barrens, in squats, warehouses, etc.
This is probably the only place in the world that they are safe from the
Corporations. Down here, it becomes like Belfast, and the Corps become
the English army, to use some examples that were given earlier. Everybody
on every street corner is their friend and is looking out for them, not
because they may like them, but simply because it's an US vs. THEM world.
The Shadowrunners are the US, and the Corporations are the THEM.

The ROO-MAN
via his wife
Message no. 219
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 16:33:24 -0500 (CDT)
On Sat, 25 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> A new player comes into the market and he's charging less for his stuff than
> the Big 8. First, they'll maybe make it maybe a month before they're bought
> up. Second, during that month, they'll get no market share, despite their
> better prices. Why not? I mean, it'd only make sense that they're selling
> the product cheaper, they should get more biz. Because of marketing. A
> tiny little newbiecorp can't hang with the big dogs in marketing. See
> Microsoft for a good example and then realize that they're still nowhere
> near the level of a megacorp in 2057.

Depends on who the target audiance is. Fairlight isn't owned by any of
the big 8 but they still have fairly good sales. Then again fairlight
has some advantages that most small corps don't ("mess with us and your
system gets hit buy deckers using things that make the excalibure look
like a childs toy").

>
> Iraq needs everything they can get right now due to trade sanctions imposed
> by the UN. Just last week, the UN decided to let them sell 1 billion
> gallons of oil each month in exchange for food and medical supplies. Until
> then, they weren't allowed to sell anything at all. Their economic and
> political structures nearly cracked. If a country like the UCAS ever
> started treading on corporate toes with shows of military or any other type
> of might, they'd get sanctions imposed on them by the Corporate Court (which
> exists to serve corps also, remember?). Now they don't get anything from
> the megacorps. Renraku shuts down the telecommunications systems within the
> UCAS. Fuchi turns off their cold fusion reactors. No power, you say? No
> communications, you say? Corps decide that they won't sell their food
> supply off to the UCAS for a while, you having problems with food riots?
> Now, what was this about a show of power? Corps rule the world in 2057 and
> they know it. So does the rest of the world.

You have got to be kidding. First off where do you think to corps grow
there food. Look at a map of UCAS, notice that some of the major grain
and soy producing states are still in it. As for Renraku and Fuchi I'm
sure the feds would love the chance to nationalize said industries. And
before you say that the corps would fight back like me remind you that
UCAS has half a million men under arms, is the source of a large amount
of the worlds arms and has nukes that can reach Zurich orbital. Yes the
corps can give UCAS as hard time but they still can't hope to win in a
fight, besides why would they want to try buying politicos is so much easier.

>
> -------------------------------------
> "I was thinking of the immortal words
> of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
> -- Real Genius
> -------------------------------------
> TopCat at the bottom...
>
>
Stephen
Message no. 220
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 16:51:55 -0500
At 01:47 PM 5/25/96 +1030, you wrote:
>>Yep, and the UCAS gov't knows Renraku's special ops teams. Uh-huh. Does
>>our military know where the best strike teams of other militaries are at?
>>Not a chance in hell.

>Actually, yeah... during the Cold War, for example, the US knew where the
>Russians trained and based their Spetnaz strike teams, and the Russians
>sure as heck knew where Fort Bragg was, and where the various Marine
>elite units trained. They probably even had a good idea of where the
>SEALs were.

Knowing where they train or even where they're based at is a far cry from
knowing who they are and where they are at any given time.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 221
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 16:52:00 -0500
>You still have the problem that the security at this place exists to
>protect the diners: a successful assassination of a customer in an
>establishment like this means they're effectively out of business. Even
>an indiscreet attempt could be extremely expensive.

And you now assume that my snipers are sitting inside the restaurant.
People get killed walking into or out of places during assassination
attempts. Rarely, if ever, are they actually shot inside an establishment.

>You brought up the sniper team, I went to work on that. Now we're down
>to pistols, throwing knives and Narcojects, which need you to be much
>closer to the target, still involve an overt display to use, and are
>less assuredly lethal.

How overt a display? Pulling a trigger at most. The gun could be in a
cast, up a sleeve, or even in and arm, mouth, or eye. Now, worst case, does
the pulling of a trigger get noticed if the shooter isn't noticed? No.
Ranges on these items is mor ethan enough to pull off a shot from a rooftop,
alley, nearby building, or even a not-so-nearby building. So range isn't a
factor.

>I'd suggest that you understate the difficulty of carrying out an attack
>like this. I wouldn't let a runner team do it without extensive
>preparation: a corporation may have more resources, but it still faces
>the same opposition. "Yup, yup, you can kill our diners. We didn't like
>being in business anyway. Guess being unemployed sounds pretty good."

It is difficult, I agree with you 100% there. But it'll be easier for a
corp to pull it off with their resources than it will for a shadowrunner
team of five to pull it off with theirs. You once again assume in this bit
that my snipers will be walking around the restuatant.

>>And if your runners are
>>comfortable having a meet in front of a group of LS cops or rentacops or
>>private security, then I probably don't want to go to any meet at all with
>>them. Nothing like laying out a criminal act in front of the law to ruin
>>your day.
>You let people overhear discussions in places like this? Boy, in that
>case the runners just hang there anyway. Today a corporate takeover,
>tomorrow Governor Schultz' re-election plans.

You were the one who said the police and security guards would be all over
the place inside, not me. If steps aren't taken to insure privacy, then
privacy isn't guaranteed.

>You rent an Elite for the night, you wear your best suit, and you blend.
>Blending in is a shadowrunner survival trait. You fit in. You look like
>one of the rich and shameless that the security is there to defend,
>rather than the low and nasty that they're defending against.

But you don't look like anyone who regularly comes here and neither does
anyone else you're with. People notice things like that in restaurants like
these.

>And, just suppose, you have a third party who has an interest in (a)
>keeping those runners alive and (b) embarrasing your corporation. The
>list of candidates is endless. It suddenly stops being so quick, simple
>and easy, doesn't it?

Then that third party better know that the corp is planning to assassinat
ethe runners. If they don't know, then they'll be saying a whole lot of
"boy, I wish we'd have known that was going to happen". Plus, if they know,
they may or may not let the runnres know, preferring to let them die so they
can nail their enemy harder. Of course, there is no sniper to be found
later (or if there is, he isn't connected back to the corp) so they're stuck
too.

>>Here's the key to this: the UCAS is not a closed culture. End of story.
>
>The US isn't today either. So, you can walk around in central Los
>Angeles, or Atlanta, or Washington D.C., at night, with no worries?
>Those residents will be cheerful, helpful and friendly? You can drive a
>rental car around in Florida safely? :)

I can. Central LA isn't near as bad as East. Atlanta and Washington D.C.
I've messed around in before. No worries. There are some few neighborhoods
that I wouldn't visit (because I'd have no busniess being there). I would
also happily rent a car in Florida and (heaven forbid) drive it around and
I'd bet anything that I could do so safely. I'm not terrified of life in
the US, because I know what life in the US is. What you've missed here is
the fact that there are literally thousands of different cultures in the US,
each with their own subcultures. Most other countries (UK included) have
not even a hundredth (many not even a thousandth) of that. That's why we
(the US) aren't a closed culture.

>I'd say there were closed subcultures within it, just like there are
>here. The US may be open, just like we are, but that doesn't extend to
>every district of every town.

You need to visit a few towns here sometime, might give you the correct
perspective.

>Yeah, they'll be limited only by the distance they have to ship their
>Semtex. How would you track PIRA members in Boston? Would you even be
>able to? This is the cradle of NORAID, remember. The IRA would have
>Senatorial backing. You're looking for someone with an Irish accent in
>Boston? Lots'o'luck...

We don't need to track the IRA or worry about them. They could care less
about us (aside from the fact that there are many supporters here in the
US). You might have problems with tracking them here however.

>>I'd rather work for whatever one would have me. Every runner I've had has
>>gotten multiple fixers as soon as he could. I prefer to go with smart
>>fixers who'd drop a source of trouble for a solid corp link. They'll always
>>have quality work for quality pay. Unlike the one's who hang onto
>>almost-dead groups and bite the hand that feeds them.
>Got to be alive to spend the money. If your fixer keeps getting teams
>mysteriously dead at meetings, those good jobs look more like bait in a
>trap than an incentive.

No, the fixer keeps dropping teams that become liabilities. That's what was
said there. Not killing them himself, but he stops taking calls from them
or calling them. As far as he is concerned, they don't exist. That's the
fixer who would get the best work with the best pay with the fringe benefit
of being safe. Smart fixing.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 222
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 16:52:05 -0500
>>Sending in commandos into another country (that generally hates them and
>>rightly so IMHO) to attack members of that country would be like me trying
>>to sneak around Iraq on a commando mission. I don't look like the natives,
>>I don't act like the natives, I don't speak like the natives.
>Kind of like corporate military troops trying to sneak into a city's
>Barrens... can you picture US Marines operating undercover in Los
>Angeles? When those same Marines had to do similar work in Kiev last
>month, Paris the month before that and Buenos Aires before that?

I can very well pictures US marines in LA after having been to several other
countries and cities, because it happens. When you're in the US, it is very
rare to see a city or town that has one culture. Extremely rare. Maybe a
few towns with a population of 100 or less would be. Most likely they'll
have varying ethnic backgrounds no matter where you look, but I just live
here, so don't take my word. Marines in LA look just like other people in
LA, no visible differences. There is no American ethnic group. We
represent thousands of different ethnicities. That's why it is extremely
easy to blend into a crowd here.

>Limited numbers, a large world, many many missions. Remember, your
>corporation covers most of the world. The more time your "elite strike
>force" spends learning local languages and customs for every possible
>area, the less time they have to actually train for elite strike work.
>You end up with a team of spies, not soldiers, useful for hunting
>shadowrunners and not much else. Someone who keeps their soldiers as
>soldiers is going to kick their butts.

My elite strike force lived in the UCAS. They speak English just like the
overwhelming majority of the UCAS does. They have their own customs, which
is fine because everyone has their own customs in the UCAS and it's actually
ok to do so. Not real hard to fit in over here is it?

>How many of these operatives do you have per city? How long does it take
>to replace a casualty? Are you going to expose them to risk, week after
>week?

However many I feel like I need. One phone call. I'll expose them to
whatever risks I feel necessary. If it means one strike folloewd
immediately by another, then so be it. If it means ten years between
strikes, then so be it.

>>In CS, they also state that these are very conservative estimates and that
>>many (if not all) corps keep extra military-level assets around under
>>different titles. What is listed there is official on-the-books military.

>And the case for having more is...?

Military assets and military-level assets are the two terms that are giving
you trouble in this part of the conversation. Security guards (surprise)
are military-level assets. They aren't in the corp's military, but they
very likely might've been at one time. The case for having more (even just
plain military assets) is that it represents things that aren't known in
your corp. Which can be extremely useful for many things.

>Given the cost of training, equipping and maintaining even a small
>military force, you'd need a better reason than hunting lowlife
>shadowrunners to keep a large standing army around: many corporations
>don't have any military forces at all.

I have tons of reasons. Site security is the foremost of these. They don't
"only hunt down runners" which I have stated time and again throughout this
thread. They are fully capable of doing so, however, should the need arise.

>You are kidding, right? Maybe your military doesn't know what other
>nations are up to. Ours does. Ours even monitors the terrorists. We went
>to BS Amber for two weeks once: we found out later that was because a
>certain Irish gentleman booked a taxi at East Midlands Airport, and that
>meant he was going to be - or was - in the area, and the local units
>reacted appropriately.

So England knows exactly where every single member of any given US ranger
team is at any given time and whether or not they're moving and what exactly
they are moving for? The US knows who and where every given spy of every
given country in the world is and what they are doing? Does England know
who every single IRA member is? They know where they are too I bet. And
they know every single time they plan on doing something and what exactly
that something is, too. They just can't seem to do anything about it, is
that the case? Sounds like you've missed the point here again.

>Corporations have economic power, but nations have military power. The
>Corporate Court's combined might can crush any nation, even the UCAS,
>but the UCAS could wipe *one* corporation out pretty thoroughly. Checks
>and balances. This is one lever the Court uses to enforce compliance
>with its "advice".

Renraku cuts telecommunications in the UCAS. Is there going to be a fight?
Nope. UCAS will cave in immediately. Fuchi cuts all power. There a fight
now? Still no. UCAS concedes defeat. Aztechnology decides to back the NAN
fully again. Oh my. Or maybe they start feeding troops to help CAS's
cause. Yikes. The countries of the world don't stand the beginnings of a
chance against any corporate power out there.

>We did this *all the time* in Northern Ireland. Israel does it to
>Hezb'Allah. Even Russia does it to the Chechens when it can (remember
>Dudayev, killed by a missile homing on his mobile phone?).

The key to all of these is "when it can". That opportunity is extremely
rare and acted upon when it can be. An overwhelming percentage of the time,
this won't be the ase though.

>Why do you think Britain is any sort of closed society? Apart from named
>individuals, there aren't even movement restrictions between NI and the
>mainland, let alone anywhere else. I was in Kent yesterday, served in
>the hotel bar by a barman from Aberdeen and in the restaurant by a
>Londoner whose parents had come from Hong Kong. Try comparing Horndean
>(where I live), Leicester, and Brent for homogeneity: there ain't none.

Two cultures does not an open society make. Nor does a Hong Kong waiter or
a bartender from Aberdeen. Compare sometime (I don't know where exactly to
find the numbers now, but I think I'll check for them on Monday) the ethnic
breakdown for different countries. The US is far and away the most diverse
culture out there. Nobody else can even begin to approach the mix that we
have here. In fct, you will notice, that every single other country is
comparatively homogenous.

>Britain's a lot more ethnically diverse than, say, Nebraska :)

BZZT! Care to try again? Like I mentioned in another post. Maybe if you
came over here and took a look at some towns/cities you'd get the correct
impression. In Nebraska there are people of German, Czechloslovakian,
French, Belgian, Dutch, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, English, Irish,
Scottish, and literally hundreds of other backgrounds. All scattered about
and in varying numbers. There'll be a couple of clique-towns, but those'll
be few and far between (and around 5-100 in population, which is REALLY tiny
for US towns).

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 223
From: mike.diamond@********.org
Subject: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 96 17:30:00 EST -0400
T ³ Yes, .50 weapons are available. The Desert Eagle is available in this
T ³ caliber from most gun stores. There are also rifles around that are
Ahhh... NO, The DE is NOT an actual 50 cal round... I've had the
oppurtinuity to see a Ma Deuce up close and personal, and The DE .50AE...
They are not the same, <You couldn't fire a .50 cal handgun and expect to
live, Although you'd take whatever you were shooting at with you... :) I
tried to find the exact specs, but I couldn't, Sorry... Maybe M\r. Myrick
has some more info...
-Mike
---
þ JABBER v1.2 þ REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q)
Message no. 224
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 17:12:20 -0500
> T ³ Yes, .50 weapons are available. The Desert Eagle is available in=
this
> T ³ caliber from most gun stores. There are also rifles around that are
> Ahhh... NO, The DE is NOT an actual 50 cal round... I've had the
>oppurtinuity to see a Ma Deuce up close and personal, and The DE .50AE...
>They are not the same, <You couldn't fire a .50 cal handgun and expect to
>live, Although you'd take whatever you were shooting at with you... :) I
>tried to find the exact specs, but I couldn't, Sorry... Maybe M\r. Myrick
>has some more info...
>-Mike

It is a .50 round. It isn't the same .50 round that is used in some heavy
machineguns, but it is a .50 round. There's a lot less powder and a lot
fewer grains behind the handgun .50 than the machingeun version. It
couldn't be called a .50 round if it wasn't .50

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 225
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 17:12:14 -0500
At 04:33 PM 5/25/96 -0500, Stephan wrote:
>> A new player comes into the market and he's charging less for his stuff than
>> the Big 8. First, they'll maybe make it maybe a month before they're bought
>> up. Second, during that month, they'll get no market share, despite their
>> better prices. Why not? I mean, it'd only make sense that they're selling
>> the product cheaper, they should get more biz. Because of marketing. A
>> tiny little newbiecorp can't hang with the big dogs in marketing. See
>> Microsoft for a good example and then realize that they're still nowhere
>> near the level of a megacorp in 2057.

>Depends on who the target audiance is. Fairlight isn't owned by any of
>the big 8 but they still have fairly good sales. Then again fairlight
>has some advantages that most small corps don't ("mess with us and your
>system gets hit buy deckers using things that make the excalibure look
>like a childs toy").

I think the Fairlight Excalibur is actually made by Fuchi (don't remember
exactly where I read that but I seem to remember that from somewhere).

>You have got to be kidding. First off where do you think to corps grow
>there food. Look at a map of UCAS, notice that some of the major grain
>and soy producing states are still in it. As for Renraku and Fuchi I'm
>sure the feds would love the chance to nationalize said industries. And
>before you say that the corps would fight back like me remind you that
>UCAS has half a million men under arms, is the source of a large amount
>of the worlds arms and has nukes that can reach Zurich orbital. Yes the
>corps can give UCAS as hard time but they still can't hope to win in a
>fight, besides why would they want to try buying politicos is so much easier.

The UCAS screwed up their potential for nationalising when they lost the
Shiawase case that led to extraterritoriality in the first place, Aztlan
almost got butchered because they actually went through with it (but did so
way before the right measures were put in place). Renraku is actually a
MAJOR force in the food production markets (check CFS). Who owns most farms
today in the US? Corporations. They own TONS of farmland. The few piddly
privately-owned farms don't produce anywhere near the volume of the
corp-owned farms. I know quite a few people on both sides of the farming
circle, from corp owners to farm families (you get to know these people
living in Illinois and especially in the capital thereof). The big get
bigger every year and the small get smaller. That's just the natural way of
things. The corps grow their food where the family farmers grew theirs til
they got bought out.

The corps own the world in 2057, it'd take far less time for the corps to
rain enough Thor-shots to bury the UCAS in ash than it would for the UCAS to
arm their nuclear arsenal: which they don't really have anymore, nukes were
banned worldwide and destroyed back in the early part of the 21st century.
I'm sure they kept a couple of keepsakes, but if they were to use them, then
every country in the world as well as every corp in the world would come
down on them like the hand of an angry god. So I don't think the UCAS would
have much, if anything to do with attacking any corp.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 226
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 18:13:48 -0500 (CDT)
On Sat, 25 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> I can very well pictures US marines in LA after having been to several other
> countries and cities, because it happens. When you're in the US, it is very
> rare to see a city or town that has one culture. Extremely rare. Maybe a
> few towns with a population of 100 or less would be. Most likely they'll
> have varying ethnic backgrounds no matter where you look, but I just live
> here, so don't take my word. Marines in LA look just like other people in
> LA, no visible differences. There is no American ethnic group. We
> represent thousands of different ethnicities. That's why it is extremely
> easy to blend into a crowd here.

A corporate strike team may fit perfectly well into corporate culter but
unless they have prior experince they arn't going to fit to well into the
barrens (this is probably not true for groups that opperate in the
barrens alot or)

>
> >Limited numbers, a large world, many many missions. Remember, your
> >corporation covers most of the world. The more time your "elite strike
> >force" spends learning local languages and customs for every possible
> >area, the less time they have to actually train for elite strike work.

Ever wonder why chipjacks are so popular amoung these groups.

> >You end up with a team of spies, not soldiers, useful for hunting
> >shadowrunners and not much else. Someone who keeps their soldiers as
> >soldiers is going to kick their butts.


>
> My elite strike force lived in the UCAS. They speak English just like the
> overwhelming majority of the UCAS does. They have their own customs, which
> is fine because everyone has their own customs in the UCAS and it's actually
> ok to do so. Not real hard to fit in over here is it?

Your elite force dose NOT live in UCAS it lives in Fuchi or Ares or any
number of corporate states. Your average corp sec gaurd was brought up
in the company, educated by the company and lives in the companys
housing. You better belive it's going to take him some time to get
accustomed to the barrens (unless he hangs out there after work). People
still mingle in sociaty in 2057 but it's much less likely that some one
from one of the big 8 will have experince with culters out side there
socio-economic class. In other words they stand out in the barrens like
a suit with no gaming experince at a con.

>
> I have tons of reasons. Site security is the foremost of these. They don't
> "only hunt down runners" which I have stated time and again throughout this
> thread. They are fully capable of doing so, however, should the need arise.

If the runners our good then the corp shouldn't be able to track them
after a run.

>
> >Corporations have economic power, but nations have military power. The
> >Corporate Court's combined might can crush any nation, even the UCAS,
> >but the UCAS could wipe *one* corporation out pretty thoroughly. Checks
> >and balances. This is one lever the Court uses to enforce compliance
> >with its "advice".
>
> Renraku cuts telecommunications in the UCAS. Is there going to be a fight?

UCAS nationalizes the telecommunications network. If Renraku puts up a fight
the military will be more then happy to deal with it. In fact after Chicago
I woudln't be surprised if there was a backup communications network
controlled by the goverment to be used in case of just such emergencies..

> Nope. UCAS will cave in immediately. Fuchi cuts all power. There a fight
> now? Still no. UCAS concedes defeat.

Again UCAS nationalizes the resorces. Sure Fuchi could destroy its
plants but I don't think even a magacorp would take that big of a loss
(at least nationalized there's a chance of getting them back through
legal action). All vital national security instillations of course have
there own power supply. Yes this one can couse problems but if they
actually blow there plants then Fuchi will undoubtably see all it's
holdings in UCAS confiscated and it's top corporate personal prosecuted
(and I wouldn't be surprised if a few seal teams "extracted" some board
members from Fuchi's Japanesse headquarters, just before it's demolished
by bombs from a flight of stealth aircraft.

> Aztechnology decides to back the NAN
> fully again. Oh my.

If NAN dosn't make any preperations to start it's war with UCAS again then
nothing happens. If they do then a preemptive nuclear strike destroys
much of Aztlan to prevent them giving magical aid to NAN. The moral of
this if you want to play with the big boys be prepared to pay the price.

> Or maybe they start feeding troops to help CAS's
> cause.

CAS and UCAS arn't at war, CAS and Aztlan on the other hand. If UCAS ever
really wanted to ruin Aztechnologys day all they need to do is give CAS
military support in the retaking of Austin.

> Yikes. The countries of the world don't stand the beginnings of a
> chance against any corporate power out there.

UCAS has the problem that it can't retaliate in small incriment when
fighting a corp it's an all or nothing proposition. The corps should
remember this when trying to figure just how far they can push UCAS.

>
> -------------------------------------
> "I was thinking of the immortal words
> of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
> -- Real Genius
> -------------------------------------
> TopCat at the bottom...
>
>
Stephen
Message no. 227
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 19:00:12 -0500 (CDT)
On Sat, 25 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> At 04:33 PM 5/25/96 -0500, Stephan wrote:

> I think the Fairlight Excalibur is actually made by Fuchi (don't remember
> exactly where I read that but I seem to remember that from somewhere).

New one for me in my game Fairlight Inc is run by a bunch of deckers from
a secret facility somewhere in LA (Excaliburs arn't exactly hire
production items).

>
> >You have got to be kidding. First off where do you think to corps grow
> >there food. Look at a map of UCAS, notice that some of the major grain
> >and soy producing states are still in it. As for Renraku and Fuchi I'm
> >sure the feds would love the chance to nationalize said industries. And
> >before you say that the corps would fight back like me remind you that
> >UCAS has half a million men under arms, is the source of a large amount
> >of the worlds arms and has nukes that can reach Zurich orbital. Yes the
> >corps can give UCAS as hard time but they still can't hope to win in a
> >fight, besides why would they want to try buying politicos is so much easier.
>
> The UCAS screwed up their potential for nationalising when they lost the
> Shiawase case that led to extraterritoriality in the first place, Aztlan
> almost got butchered because they actually went through with it (but did so
> way before the right measures were put in place).

There is a very special kind of nationalization for extraterritorial entities
it's called an invasion.

> Renraku is actually a
> MAJOR force in the food production markets (check CFS). Who owns most farms
> today in the US? Corporations. They own TONS of farmland. The few piddly
> privately-owned farms don't produce anywhere near the volume of the
> corp-owned farms. I know quite a few people on both sides of the farming
> circle, from corp owners to farm families (you get to know these people
> living in Illinois and especially in the capital thereof). The big get
> bigger every year and the small get smaller. That's just the natural way of
> things. The corps grow their food where the family farmers grew theirs til
> they got bought out.

Tell me have you ever heard of the threat (T) Roosevelt used against the
coal mine owners in the early part of this century?

>
> The corps own the world in 2057, it'd take far less time for the corps to
> rain enough Thor-shots to bury the UCAS in ash than it would for the UCAS to
> arm their nuclear arsenal: which they don't really have anymore, nukes were
> banned worldwide and destroyed back in the early part of the 21st century.

And UCAS dosn't have it's own Thor-shot? Not to mention the nukes they keept
are no doubt on ballistic missile subs so dropping on UCAS insures
nothing except that Tokayo will recive a 20 megaton bomb the hard way.


> I'm sure they kept a couple of keepsakes, but if they were to use them, then
> every country in the world as well as every corp in the world would come
> down on them like the hand of an angry god.

And burying UCAS in thor-shot wouldn't? What I was refering to was a
reinstatement of the great ghost dance which most nations would consider the
equivalent to an impending nuclear attack.

> So I don't think the UCAS would
> have much, if anything to do with attacking any corp.

Hum nock out zurich orbital, destroy the corporate headquaters of each of
the big 8. Hope that they intercept the incoming thor-shot and generally
prepare for WWIII.

>
> -------------------------------------
> "I was thinking of the immortal words
> of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
> -- Real Genius
> -------------------------------------
> TopCat at the bottom...
>
>
Stephen Delear
Message no. 228
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 00:07:12 +0100
>>You had to make it, and you can't sell it. If you buy more assets than
>>you need, you're wasting money: all of this comes out of money that
>>could be profits, dividends or investment.
>
>You didn't "buy" anything. That's they key. If you did buy it from anyone
>else, it'd cost 5000. It cost you 500 to make. You give it to your guards,
>giving them equivalent security equip to 5000 nuyen at a cost of 500 to you.
>This would debit the warehouse 500 nuyen and credit security 5000 nuyen. It
>is balanced by debiting the self-sale column by 4500. Everything there
>balances out to 0. Which is how accounting works. You've got 5000 in
>debits, 5000 in credits. The self-sale column is just there to show
>balance. So you've now got +4500 in a solid asset.

You had to buy raw material from somewhere, process it, assemble it.
Either you paid others, or you used your machinery and people to do it
internally. That represents a cost, of what those assets could have
achieved if turned to profitable ends.

You can call its "internal worth" five thousand or five million, but it
represents five hundred newyen of expenditure. The Soviet Union tried
this game with its arms industry: see the success it brought their
economy.

>>Unless you can point to quantifiable numbers, like proving that there is
>>a decrease in successful attacks on your facility whose net cost would
>>have exceeded the cost of the measures to prevent them, this stuff won't
>>happen.
>
>So why have security at all by your reasoning? This is what you're getting
>at, right?

Please don't exaggerate my position.

Security's job is to protect assets, be they goods, data or people. You
buy enough security to balance the costs of that security against the
losses incurred. There comes a point where stopping that last 0.1% of
shadowruns becomes uneconomic compared to contingency planning, news
management and other methods of damage control.

Too much security drives you under: witness the former Soviet Union.
They made all those tanks, missiles, radars, warships themselves, at
very low cost, so why did their economy collapse?

>Or should they just not be equipped? Or should they waste huge
>amounts of corporate funds purchasing someone else's equip or guards?
>Security is of utmost importance to megacorps. They deal with things that
>are worth too much money to be messed with. Because you were lax on the
>security budget, a runner team got in and nabbed some useless info. Which
>isn't anything bad. But they also bumped into a lab project and destroyed
>months of research on accident. If there was better security, this wouldn't
>happen.

And you ignore completely the quid pro quo: precision means survival,
carelessness means you get hunted. You use all economic means to control
losses, and intimidation is one such method.

>Security will always be there and it will always be at the highest
>level possible before the point of loss, which would be along the lines of
>searching every single employee with every form of scanner as well as a full
>physical search each and every time they wanted to leave or enter a room.
>When time starts getting lost in unacceptable amounts, then there's a
>problem. Until then, everything is fine.

When that room is the lavatory and you need four guards in full gear to
cover it around the clock, it becomes a problem.

>>And you limit your reach by tying up large numbers of your best security
>>people in hunting shadowrunners.
>
>Five guys is a large number of my best resources? If I'm a megacorp and
>that's truth, then I'm in for a whole lot of trouble.

You have a large problem with losses to runners, or you don't need such
a huge infrastructure. You have sites in every worthwhile city in the
world and have to protect them all. You have *lots* of troops tied up
with your "kill all runners" strategy, plus their associated support and
especially the intelligence arms.

>>You don't have to tell me, I just costed a work package for the MoD.
>>This is why you have auditors and internal checks. Security goes under
>>security's costs, because other departments scream blue murder. "What do
>>you mean we have to fund the processor upgrade? The processor's fine!"
>>"But Security say they need to upgrade the IC-"
>>"Then Security can pay for it, it's their problem!"
>
>It will run like this, security will have their own budget. But there will
>be budgets for repair and SOTA maintenance as well. Just because your
>company doesn't have such provisions doesn't mean that other corps won't. I
>would suggest such a thing if you really are having probs like that.

Where does that budget come from? It doesn't come out of thin air. It
comes out of profit. Security is a cost, like lighting or heating. You
cannot pull money out of the air and throw it around.

>>But you have to feed, pay, clothe, train and equip that manpower, and
>>then the more of it you tie up internally the less profitable it
>>becomes. Of course, you could compromise and cut costs. Are all those
>>training exercises *strictly* necessary?
>
>I have to feed and clothe these people? Why? They get paid, I'm sure they
>can afford their own food and clothes.

So you have to pay them in hard currency with which they can provide
their own food: or you have to ship in food and clothing for them to buy
with corporate scrip.

>I train them and equip them, which
>is no big deal, that's comparatively cheap.

*cough* Excuse me? Any idea how much even a company-level Territorial
Army weekend exercise costs? You're talking tens of thousands of pounds
for a pretty minor affair, and we don't have to pay for the training
area. Trivial? Sure, that's a researcher's salary for a year.

>As for the training question,
>it matters when you're a small corp in a small market. When you're a big
>corp in nearly every market out there, can you afford to be a step behind
>the other corps in training? Nope, you'll die if you even begin to think
>so. Plus, if you lead the pack in training, you'll get more business. Go
>with the corp who's using last year's techniques or the corp that is SOTA?
>There's a no-brainer.

In other words, more costs because everyone's involved in this race. Or
you step back and let others ride the cutting edge: you'll compensate
with superior equipment and a stable doctrine everyone understands.

>>TopCat, you said we Europeans didn't understand American economics and I
>>guess you must be right. If you arm, train, equip, feed, house and pay a
>>man, he is a cost.
>
>He is a debit in some areas and a credit in others. He represents manpower
>(credit). His salary goes on payroll (debit). I've already explained how
>equipment balances and that training is something that a megacorp cannot
>afford to skimp on. You lose money from payroll, you gain an asset that
>represents your money spent. The corp owns the corp uniforms and equipment,
>so those're corp assets (debits from self-sale and warehouse, credits
>uniforms and equipment). Housing is a credit in several ways (most notably
>because it keeps the personnel close by) and a debit in space in the
>building (if they live in the building at all, which is fairly likely).
>Cost to bank account matters very little in accounting. Assets are what
>really matter. Highly trained, properly equipped, well-fed, clothed, and
>housed security guards are a much greater asset to the corp than untrained,
>unequipped, starved, naked, and homeless security guards. The latter will
>cost payroll much less, but won't bring about anywhere near the results.
>Nor will anything up to the point of "highly trained, properly...etc".
>Costs might be a slight bit higher but the overall gain in assets is more
>than worth it.


>> If employees are effectively free, why did the US
>>invent the term "downsizing"?
>
>Downsizing has never (in any circumstance that I know of) led to a decrease
>in security. It has led to a whole lot of early retirement programs and
>pink slips for people too old, stubborn, or stupid to learn the new
>techniques that the corp/org was using. I've seen this dozens of times and
>I applaud the effort wholeheartedly. It is the cutting away of dead flesh
>from the corp/org.

No it isn't, and again I speak as a veteran. What happens is that those
people with bright ideas that were troublesome find themselves
jettisoned: those "careful" plodders who never offended anyone entrench
themselves. The capable and competent seek jobs elsewhere, and you find
yourself left with those who can't or won't go elsewhere. Which are the
old and the stubborn and the stupid: the smart vote with their feet.

Luckily I was still at university at the time, and by the time I
graduated two years later the company was desperate for manpower because
it had overcut and was now trying to hire back the people it had fired.

>But,
>once again, I have never seen it hit security.

The point remains - if employees are "assets" why get rid of them?

>>And not considering opportunity cost damn near put my employer into
>>bankrupcy five years ago: we very nearly collapsed, as the meticulous
>>accounts proved. The accountants didn't help us get out of the situation
>>they caused and they had nothing to do with the subsequent recovery.
>
>Your market is a dangerous one to play in. And you only deal in that
>market. Megas handle every market, most handle some markets more than
>others, but they all have their fingers in every pie they can get a hold of.
>They deal in limited demand markets as well as high demand markets and
>min/max their efforts to produce net worth. Doesn't sound like your company
>min/max'd for their market very well or they missed a trend that others saw.
>That's not an accountant's fault, but he can tell you the end result.

We saw a trend everyone saw. That was the collapse of the Soviet Union
and the peace dividend.

Unfortunately, it happened a little rapidly for anyone to be able to do
much about it.

The point remains: accountants merely tell you where you were and where
you are. They are no use at all at telling you where to go next.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 229
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 00:53:42 +0100
In message <9605252152.AC07558@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>>>Sending in commandos into another country (that generally hates them and
>>>rightly so IMHO) to attack members of that country would be like me trying
>>>to sneak around Iraq on a commando mission. I don't look like the natives,
>>>I don't act like the natives, I don't speak like the natives.
>>Kind of like corporate military troops trying to sneak into a city's
>>Barrens... can you picture US Marines operating undercover in Los
>>Angeles? When those same Marines had to do similar work in Kiev last
>>month, Paris the month before that and Buenos Aires before that?
>
>I can very well pictures US marines in LA after having been to several other
>countries and cities, because it happens. When you're in the US, it is very
>rare to see a city or town that has one culture. Extremely rare. Maybe a
>few towns with a population of 100 or less would be. Most likely they'll
>have varying ethnic backgrounds no matter where you look, but I just live
>here, so don't take my word. Marines in LA look just like other people in
>LA, no visible differences. There is no American ethnic group. We
>represent thousands of different ethnicities. That's why it is extremely
>easy to blend into a crowd here.

Undercover? And these are not UCAS or US citizens. They are corporate
citizens.

Please, TopCat, stop assuming that my country is a homogenous mass and I
base any assumptions upon that. It isn't. I'm getting tired of trying to
explain to you that we have more than a little ethnic diversity here
ourselves. British Commonwealth, remember?

Blending into a crowd is one thing. Conducting any sort of operation is
another.

>>Limited numbers, a large world, many many missions. Remember, your
>>corporation covers most of the world. The more time your "elite strike
>>force" spends learning local languages and customs for every possible
>>area, the less time they have to actually train for elite strike work.
>>You end up with a team of spies, not soldiers, useful for hunting
>>shadowrunners and not much else. Someone who keeps their soldiers as
>>soldiers is going to kick their butts.
>
>My elite strike force lived in the UCAS. They speak English just like the
>overwhelming majority of the UCAS does. They have their own customs, which
>is fine because everyone has their own customs in the UCAS and it's actually
>ok to do so. Not real hard to fit in over here is it?

So you have one for the UCAS. One for Pueblo. One for Ute. One for
Sioux... That's one continent. Now we have the rest of the world.

How many of these "elite forces" do you have?

>>How many of these operatives do you have per city? How long does it take
>>to replace a casualty? Are you going to expose them to risk, week after
>>week?
>
>However many I feel like I need. One phone call. I'll expose them to
>whatever risks I feel necessary. If it means one strike folloewd
>immediately by another, then so be it. If it means ten years between
>strikes, then so be it.

You maintain this force-in-being and use it once every ten years? Look,
you can't live in economic fantasyland like this. If this force cannot
demonstrate a return that exceeds its cost by a decent margin, a
corporation will jettison it, because they can make more money
elsewhere, and the cost of losing a few members of an elite unit is
pretty damn high.

>>And the case for having more is...?
>
>Military assets and military-level assets are the two terms that are giving
>you trouble in this part of the conversation. Security guards (surprise)
>are military-level assets. They aren't in the corp's military, but they
>very likely might've been at one time. The case for having more (even just
>plain military assets) is that it represents things that aren't known in
>your corp. Which can be extremely useful for many things.

All of which have to be armed, trained, equipped, supported. You need
multiple R&D threads ongoing because your weaponry has to be as good or
better than the competition - again, more costs.

All of this represents, at the very least, researchers and resources and
production lines tied up producing arms instead of salable goods, and
that means money lost.

>>Given the cost of training, equipping and maintaining even a small
>>military force, you'd need a better reason than hunting lowlife
>>shadowrunners to keep a large standing army around: many corporations
>>don't have any military forces at all.
>
>I have tons of reasons. Site security is the foremost of these. They don't
>"only hunt down runners" which I have stated time and again throughout this
>thread. They are fully capable of doing so, however, should the need arise.

But you do so after every single incursion, and that happens often
enough that you need this army to stand guard and hunt the successful
runners. And what about those corps - even the AAAs - who don't maintain
a military?

>>You are kidding, right? Maybe your military doesn't know what other
>>nations are up to. Ours does. Ours even monitors the terrorists. We went
>>to BS Amber for two weeks once: we found out later that was because a
>>certain Irish gentleman booked a taxi at East Midlands Airport, and that
>>meant he was going to be - or was - in the area, and the local units
>>reacted appropriately.
>
>So England knows exactly where every single member of any given US ranger
>team is at any given time and whether or not they're moving and what exactly
>they are moving for?

Official Secrets Act. Even if I knew I couldn't tell you.

>The US knows who and where every given spy of every
>given country in the world is and what they are doing?

Aldrich Ames might have done, but then he was working for the other
side... something every corporation would do to its rivals if it could,
and they probably do.

>Does England know
>who every single IRA member is? They know where they are too I bet.

Yes, we know who a lot of the players are and where a lot of them are.
24-hour pinpoint surveillance? Happens more often than you think.
Gibraltar,for one you've probably heard of. More than a few ambushes and
incidents elsewhere, that you won't know about. Every time? No. Enough
to make their life bloody hard? Yes. The ceasefire hurt us a lot,
though. They used that to bring in new blood who aren't known... yet.


>And
>they know every single time they plan on doing something and what exactly
>that something is, too. They just can't seem to do anything about it, is
>that the case?

Why did the IRA offer a ceasefire?

Because they were winning?

Or because they needed a year to train new faces that were not known to
the security forces?

>Sounds like you've missed the point here again.

Sounds like you know absolutely fucking nothing at all about a situation
that is of direct and immediate personal relevance to me, to the point
where it could get me killed: and this is where I stop being civil in
this debate, TopCat, because if you want to believe Saint Gerry
O'Semtex's press releases, bully for you, but try actually visiting
Ulster. Walk around Belfast - pick the streets with red, white and blue
paving stones, about two-thirds of them - and offer to free the locals
from the yoke of British imperialism.

I'll bring grapes to the hospital, or lilies to the morgue.

>>Corporations have economic power, but nations have military power. The
>>Corporate Court's combined might can crush any nation, even the UCAS,
>>but the UCAS could wipe *one* corporation out pretty thoroughly. Checks
>>and balances. This is one lever the Court uses to enforce compliance
>>with its "advice".
>
>Renraku cuts telecommunications in the UCAS. Is there going to be a fight?
>Nope. UCAS will cave in immediately.

UCAS nationalises telecoms and sends in troops to turn them back on:
failing that, to trash every corporate dataline in the building.

>Fuchi cuts all power. There a fight
>now? Still no. UCAS concedes defeat.

UCAS sends in troops to turn on the power. This is what Aztlan did,
remember?

>Aztechnology decides to back the NAN
>fully again. Oh my. Or maybe they start feeding troops to help CAS's
>cause. Yikes.

'Scuse me? Texas is going to accept Aztlan as an ally?

>The countries of the world don't stand the beginnings of a
>chance against any corporate power out there.

TopCat, you are happily entrenched in a view of total corporate power,
and all I can say is that your game is simply very unlike mine. To me,
it sounds very dull: being opposed to far superior forces is one thing,
but to do so with no hope of survival, knowing that your survival
depends on the GM allowing you to escape, sounds boring.

I prefer having more checks and balances, more shifting alliances,
runners trying to set these forces against each other and survive in the
chinks: that way, they can feel their survival depends on their wits
rather than the GM saying "Well, that strike team should have killed
you..." Or generating new characters for each session, because the only
question is when the Invincible Happy Alliance of Corporations Who Never
Argue Among Themselves kill them.

>>We did this *all the time* in Northern Ireland. Israel does it to
>>Hezb'Allah. Even Russia does it to the Chechens when it can (remember
>>Dudayev, killed by a missile homing on his mobile phone?).
>
>The key to all of these is "when it can". That opportunity is extremely
>rare and acted upon when it can be. An overwhelming percentage of the time,
>this won't be the ase though.

Why not? It is here. Compare how ma

>Two cultures does not an open society make. Nor does a Hong Kong waiter or
>a bartender from Aberdeen. Compare sometime (I don't know where exactly to
>find the numbers now, but I think I'll check for them on Monday) the ethnic
>breakdown for different countries. The US is far and away the most diverse
>culture out there. Nobody else can even begin to approach the mix that we
>have here. In fct, you will notice, that every single other country is
>comparatively homogenous.

Look, please stop advertising your ignorance about Britain.
>
>>Britain's a lot more ethnically diverse than, say, Nebraska :)
>
>BZZT! Care to try again? Like I mentioned in another post. Maybe if you
>came over here and took a look at some towns/cities you'd get the correct
>impression. In Nebraska there are people of German, Czechloslovakian,
>French, Belgian, Dutch, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, English, Irish,
>Scottish, and literally hundreds of other backgrounds. All scattered about
>and in varying numbers. There'll be a couple of clique-towns, but those'll
>be few and far between (and around 5-100 in population, which is REALLY tiny
>for US towns).

Okay, Portsmouth.

Primarily locals who are hard-core Pompey. A subculture of Londoners
dating to the dockyard days. A sizeable Hong Kong and Singapore
community from the China Station days of the Navy. A Vietnamese
community of some scale that arrived in the 1970s. An Ugandan Asian
culture from the same period. More than a few West Indians from the
1950s. Me, part-Polish part-Scottish.

These aren't individuals, these are honest-to-God subcultures, and this
is by no means one major city.


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 230
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 00:28:09 +0100
>>And the prices on most components don't vary by more than about 20%,
>>until you get to serious brand-names on assembled boxes. Compare the
>>price of a 3.5" EIDE 1.2gigabyte hard disk and see how much it varies:
>>not by much.
>
>But how much was a 1.2 gig hard drive around 4 years back? How much will it
>be worth four years from now? SOTA will determine the price. Not whether
>or not the company made too many of them.

You still miss the point. There is very little price variation because
there is too much market competition, and hard disks are relatively
brand-insensitive. Sure, you get more megabytes for your money now than
then, but I thought that advancing technology was assumed.

>>Raise the price in a cartel, and it becomes economic for someone to drop
>>their prices and grab market share: the more participants, the more
>>chance this will happen. It also becomes worthwhile for new players to
>>enter the market and undercut you.
>
>A new player comes into the market and he's charging less for his stuff than
>the Big 8. First, they'll maybe make it maybe a month before they're bought
>up. Second, during that month, they'll get no market share, despite their
>better prices. Why not? I mean, it'd only make sense that they're selling
>the product cheaper, they should get more biz. Because of marketing. A
>tiny little newbiecorp can't hang with the big dogs in marketing. See
>Microsoft for a good example and then realize that they're still nowhere
>near the level of a megacorp in 2057.

Price has a call all its own.


>>Provided supply is exceeded by demand. And that high margin is a "come
>>play in the market" call to any entrepreneur around. What happened
>>during the period of high DRAM prices? Everyone built fabs to make more
>>DRAM. Result, overproduction and a price crash. If DRAM isn't a
>>commodity, then what is?
>
>DRAM became cheaper due to the NEED for more memory in computers and the
>refusal of many buyers to dump the cash to upgrade. It was stalling the
>market. Most memory manufacturers realized this and they dropped their
>prices, because a lesser share of a huge market means a lot more cash than a
>bigger share of a tiny one.

And the prices are already at or below the cost price, to the point
where anti-dumping legislation is about to be invoked against South
Korean suppliers: they want to build market share and keep their fabs
working, and are willing to accept a short-term loss now in anticipation
of a turnup later.

>>You're going to have trouble using canned vegetables as a lever in
>>negotiations :)
>
>Iraq needs everything they can get right now due to trade sanctions imposed
>by the UN. Just last week, the UN decided to let them sell 1 billion
>gallons of oil each month in exchange for food and medical supplies. Until
>then, they weren't allowed to sell anything at all. Their economic and
>political structures nearly cracked. If a country like the UCAS ever
>started treading on corporate toes with shows of military or any other type
>of might, they'd get sanctions imposed on them by the Corporate Court (which
>exists to serve corps also, remember?). Now they don't get anything from
>the megacorps. Renraku shuts down the telecommunications systems within the
>UCAS. Fuchi turns off their cold fusion reactors. No power, you say? No
>communications, you say? Corps decide that they won't sell their food
>supply off to the UCAS for a while, you having problems with food riots?
>Now, what was this about a show of power? Corps rule the world in 2057 and
>they know it. So does the rest of the world.

Eight AAA megas. Scores of AAs. Hundreds of As. Uncounted smaller ones.

The arms embargoes on Israel and South Africa - for that matter, Serbia
- crippled their armed forces, didn't they? Serbia didn't even have
trouble getting oil.

The oil embargo on Rhodesia was enormously effective... not.

Embargoes raise prices, but unless you get a situation as clear-cut as
Iraq - who basically antagonised everyone around, including all their
neighbours - you see almost no long-term effects. Cut off South Africa's
arms and you create Kentron and Denel, and suddenly you have
competitors.

The corporations exist to make money. The UCAS is a *big* market and an
embargo raises the prices in that market.

Or... Nightmare scenario. Aztechnology openly antagonises the UCAS. The
UCAS retaliates. The corporations become enraged: Renraku shuts down the
grid. The UCAS sends in troops and turns it back on, or tries to. In the
fighting, corporate data links are also severed. *Major* costs to all
companies.

Fuchi shuts off the power. Four Fuchi comms satellites suddenly go off
the air and two of their freighters, loaded with millions' worth of
cargo, explode and sink in harbour. "Sorry, the unscheduled power
shutdown caused some minor problems."

Food? Most of the grain states are still in the UCAS.

And let's see... summary nationalisation, anyone? Knocking down all
corporate satellites above the UCAS? Armed cordons around all "foreign"
factories, interdicting all goods? Corporate freighters sinking at sea?

This all adds up to a massive, damaging and unprofitable pissing match
in which the UCAS' goal is simply survival and the corporations intend
to make a profit. War, for a corporation, is a no-win game. They win by
not fighting, and not pushing nations into situations where a nation
loses less by war than by negotiation.


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 231
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 23:46:19 +0100
In message <9605251939.AB02788@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>>So how does he buy lunch?
>
>With cash (see above). Or someone buys it for him. Once he's back home,
>all's well and he can eat whatever he wants when he wants. He could also
>pack sandwiches or whatever else he felt like, because he's only going to be
>out there for maybe a day or two.

Being an unperson *everywhere* you go could get grating for a
professional.

>>No IDs on file mean no credit rating means no credit. Going to be tricky
>>passing yourself off in public like that.
>
>He has cash and he only has to be in public for maybe a day or two, during
>which time he will be as non-public as possible.

Day or two? That quick? Okay, for hunting a bozo team, but you just do
not ship a team of soldiers into a hostile urban area and out again that
fast, not without everyone for streets around knowing what was going on.
Are police able to do this?

Okay, you can do it with uniformed snatch squads, but we're talking
undercover and deniable here. A very different beast.

>>"Unknown manufacture"? Come on, reality check. One minute you're saying
>>these guys have absolute cutting-edge technology. Now it's all
>>untraceable and unidentifiable. If it's untraceable, it's no better than
>>what you can get on the street.
>
>Just because it's cutting edge and built by the corp doesn't mean it's got
>Ares branded on it at every nook and cranny. There's a definite benefit to
>having anonymous-looking ware in your employees. Why would you ever want to
>brand them (especially those with milspec ware) so as to be obvious?

So, they have gear that is not distinctively corporate - in other words,
not noticeably better than could be found on the street. Ditto their
weapons. There go two advantages right away.

>>Secondly, you're assuming he's dead. Ten boxes != dead.
>
>You assumed you could get a hold of him. Which wouldn't happen unless the
>GM wanted a mistake to happen. Besides, death is just a cranial area bomb away.

You put a cranial area bomb in my head, and I am not going to be a
particularly happy or motivated person. Period. Sort of destroys the
idea that "you are the best, you are the elite" that you were trying to
inculate. And what if someone works out how to trip those bombs? There
go your team, just like a scene from Scanners.

>>Thirdly, there are a lot fewer of these guys than there are
>>shadowrunners. They're going to be busy, doing dangerous work, and the
>>odds *will* catch up with them. I never said it would be *easy*: but you
>>cannot assume that this corporate team can operate for month after month
>>without ever losing a member.
>
>This is where I disagree with you the most. There aren't near as many
>shadowrunners as there are corp personnel. A lot of shadowrunners out there
>are absolutely worthless. Some are damned good. Guards will be, at the
>worst, average, while at their best they'll be the equal of any runner out
>there. Plus, I'm not out there killing every shadowrunner in the city. I'm
>just taking out a team or less. So I can have them outnumbered severely and
>still not make a scene.

Take a look at the "corporate security guard" archetype and compare it
to a shadowrunner archetype. And you are still having to send teams out
frequently.

I mean, you must have a big problem with successful shadowruns to
justify all this expenditure, right? So they are noticeably better than
your guards, else they wouldn't get in at all. If they weren't seriously
good, they wouldn't be succeeding against your security in the first
place.

Ups the ante a little, doesn't it? And this must be happening a lot, or
the cost of training and equipping your strike force, and maintaining
the intelligence force necessary (in every city you have a presence,
remember - this is a *global* corporation) would get it shut down.

>>Corps also have backbiting, penny-pinching, internal feuds... If the
>>corporations are so smart, how come runners are ever able to get away
>>with anything? Mistakes happen. Corps aren't people: they're
>>agglomerations, and you only need one person of many to make a mistake.
>
>Shadowrunners don't have these? In my game they do, everyone does. That's
>the way of the world. No eutopias for any one side, everyone's got
>problems. Cyberpunk.

Yes, but you don't seem to apply this to the corporations, and that's
one of my gripes.

>>Fly something like a Viggen or Gripen and you don't need an airfield,
>>you need a five hundred yards of highway. You don't go near an airport,
>>you don't go near a plane at all while you're in skin-paint range of ATC
>>radar, you stay low and quiet with your IFF in Mode III civil and behave
>>yourself. Five hundred miles over the Atlantic, you pick up your target.
>>Lock it up and fire at thirty miles. They'll never know what hit it,
>>just that it went down.
>
>They'll know that there was lock, they'll know where from.

Airliners don't have RHAWS gear. Remember Iran Air 655? First warning
they were under attack was SM-2 shrapnel coming through the fuselage.

>You'll be
>dead/caught.

Fire an AMRAAM and the target has less than five seconds of warning,
even if they have RHAWS. "Mayday, mayday, missile inboun"<STATIC>

Very informative. Nobody saw it on radar. All anyone knows is that an
airliner went down.

Now, how does anyone work out who did it? Lift from somewhere remote -
highway works perfectly well, if you have some buddies in Transport
Department coveralls with cones and flares to block traffic for a short
while, or just a private field - and you're covered.

> You want to be dead/caught with the lives of passengers on
>your hands? The corp has insurance, they don't pay a cent. You nailed the
>plane. You get to pay everything you have before insurance starts to kick
>in. IFF and visual are also two different things. Plus, scanning
>technology has improved beyond the simple "The beeper says he's a civilian"
>level. Might work in 1996, but not in 2057.

Measures improve, so do countermeasures. We're talking civilian air
traffic control radar here, not military IADS, and operating five
hundred miles off the coast where *nobody* is looking.

>>Got it. Read it. Know a fair bit about explosives myself. NAGRL
>>specifically points out that - for instance - hermetic sealing works. It
>>also points out that C-13 cannot be detected by any known chem-sniffer.
>
>Now here's an interesting tidbit on that info. It came from a shadowsource
>who said (and I quote) that C-13 wasn't detectable, as far as he knew, by
>any chemsniffer on the open market. That part of the NAGRL also is for
>2051. Six years before 2057 (current game time). I would feel extremely
>confident that it would be detectable by now.

And so you use C-16 instead, which is new and ahead of the sniffer
curve... you hope. Measure, countermeasure.

>>And one vital point is that it's better to go around the security than
>>through it. You keep assuming that I'm going to attack in an obvious and
>>direct way, rather than find a chink. There are *always* chinks if you
>>look.
>
>There's only so many ways in. Limit those to the minimum feasible and cover
>them well. SOP.

If only, if only, if only. This is an open society, remember?

>>Have we eliminated terrorism
>>today? Nope. Will we be able to do so in 2057? An act every twelve hours
>>in the UCAS alone, according to NAGNA.
>
>Shadowrunning is more often than not an act of terrorism, I agree with you
>(and the NAGNA) that it probably does occur at least once every 12 hours.
>Terrorism by blowing up a building or shooting a crowd is one thing and
>realitvely simple. Now, have the terrorists try and hit Fort Knox. Dead in
>an instant. Have them hit the FBI headquarters at Langley. Dead in an
>instant. Have them hit a military base. Dead in an instant. They won't
>get past that kind of security. Megacorps have that kind of security available.

Who said Langley, Knox, Fort Bragg? I'm talking about a few hundred
civilian dead at a time. You could get that many or more at a sports
event or rock concert with four 82mm Vasileks loaded with HE. Twenty
bombs in ten seconds, you're underway before the first one hits, nobody
knows who the hell you were: Tuzla market all over again.

Soft targets, every time: basic rule of terrorism.


>>If the corporation with all its powers can't find someone, a bounty-
>>hunter is going to have an interesting time, though his/her intel and
>>contacts will probably be better.
>
>I am saying that a corp can find them relatively easily. And every bit of
>info they have will go toward helping the bounty hunter. I still can't
>believe that you actually think that a bounty hunter will have better intel
>and contacts than a corp, though. Corps own the world, sahdows included.

TopCat, when did I say that? *Your* point was that if the corporation
was having trouble, the bountyhunter would do the job instead.

And the corporations do *not* own the shadows, otherwise they couldn't
exist. Some parts of town, an overt corporate presence spells a healthy
body that the doc at the chopshop will pay double for, not to mention
expensive clothes, a portable 'phone, jewelry... *wealth*.

My shadows are a *bad* place at the bottom.

>>Show a warrant for the guy being bounty-hunted, who produces an ID that
>>proves he is not that man and an alibi. This shades over into an
>>extradition hearing. If you can legally forcibly abduct based on
>>allegation, then the corporations may find the reciprocity
>>uncomfortable.
>
>First, you're assuming a lot here.
>A) an officer wanders in while the bounty hunter is about to shoot you.

Gonna happen sometimes.

>B) the officer won't know of the bounty hunter (they are well known to the
>police)

So? Still doesn't make you judge, jury and executioner.

>C) the officer will take the felon's word over the bounty hunters

Cops are there to protect people's rights, in theory at least, and the
cop loses nothing by...

>D) the shadowrunner's ID checks (it'll be subjected to a nice, slow search)

And if that ID was set up for you by another corporation, and comes back
nice and solid... You play every edge you can get, and this is one of
them.

>The bounty hunter would probably be intelligent, and at least enough so that
>he'd know to wait a minute while that cop wandered away. The bounty hunter
>probably would not face off with the runner in a visible manner. One minute
>he's walking down the street, the next he's passed out with a dart-load of
>gamma-scopolamine in his system (or a stunbolt echoing through his brain)
>and being restrained (magemask and riot cuffs), hauled into the back of a
>truck, and driven away. Then the runner gets a trial courtesy of the corp.
>If it isn't the right guy, he gets a dose of laes and ends up in an alley
>outside a bar, missing his wallet, credsticks, and memories.

Jesus H. Christ, you give your corporations *way* too much leeway.
Reverse it. Could the government get away with this? Could runners do
it? There are too many opposing factions involved to blithely say "this
power can do what it wants".

What if you're immunised against gamma-scopolomine, or wearing
conductive form-fit, and you survive that attack? Or you break your
DocWagon Platinum contract, and your abductor has to explain to a HTR
team what he's doing with you.

And what if "the wrong guy" is a corporate citizen whose corporation
resents your treatment of its people? That dose of laes wiped out some
promising information, and they are angry. Payback time.

This *can* happen. But not routinely: the consequences of a mistake are
too great.

>>Triple redundancy costs *how* much?
>
>A little bit of thought. Like 1 second through a tactics skillwire of any
>decent level. Then the bit of time it takes to brief everyone.

And I have the same skillwire, give it the problem, look at the
solution. Then I use that to plan an attack.

>>TopCat, we have *real* problems over here with people called the
>>Provisional IRA, and they still get through the best efforts of the
>>police, the Army, MI5, Gardai on secondment... Corporations are *not*
>>omniscient.
>
>That is one isolated instance and England is out of it's league. This next
>little bit here is MNSO so take it as you will. England has no business in
>Ireland. What they are doing I would consider a terrorist act in and of
>itself. The Irish certainly do (or a good number of them anyway).

Sure, a 70% minority of them in Ulster. The provinces with a majority of
nationalists became free, six stayed British by democratic choice. They
remain British by democratic choice. A nationalist minority can't
achieve its aims by negotiation or electoral means, so they resort to
violence.

Please, I have friends getting shot at over there, so don't blather
garbage about a situation of which you know so little. England has,
rightly or wrongly, been in Ireland since 1155: North America was
"Vinland" and known only to a few Vikings at that point. If we have no
business there, then the white man has no place on the American
continents.


>As I
>explained before, England and Ireland are homogenous in the extreme compared
>to the US today.

Ever been here? Like I said, try a whistlestop tour. A week in Exmouth,
a week in Portsmouth, a week in Haringey, a week in Leicester.

Homogenous? Please.

>In 2057, that isn't any different. There's a solid
>culture in each country with several subcultures, but that's it. In the US
>there's literally hundreds of cultures and subcultrures. Things here are so
>much different from things there that I can't even begin to explain the
>entirety of it. In one of my other posts I go into a great deal of detail
>in why England fails to hurt the IRA noticeably. They are fighting more
>than one terrorist group (and definitely more than a shadowrunner team of 5
>or so). They are fighting a country. England also did not create the Irish
>like corps created shadowrunners. The two examples are not comparable. If
>the IRA tried to hit Buckingham Palace, they'd get wiped out to a man before
>anything detrimental happened, correct?

If they used Mark 11s they could do it easily. They hit Downing Street,
remember?

The US has no real experience of terrorism.

>>If you go in and blindly attack the enemy where he's strongest, you get
>>killed, and there I have no problem at all. But remember, a common
>>background in my campaign at least is a variation of "former company
>>security". These are the people who got the training, had the
>>experience, knew how things were done and still ended up in the shadows.
>>Don't you think they would have a good idea of what the best way to hit
>>a corporate site would be?
>
>Sure they would. For whenever they worked for the corp. Things change over
>the course of a year (and if they know a secguard went rogue, then it'd
>change over the course of a day). If it's been several years, things would
>have changed a lot. Remember how the guards used to wear armor vests and
>carry light pistols back then? They wear milspec armor and carry assault
>rifles now. Security system used to be decker-ran from the Matrix? Now
>it's rigged and strictly internal. Fences never used to be electrified.
>There were only two mages there. They only keep about a dozen guards going
>at a time. Etc. Things can and will change. Immutable security is bad
>security.

How many guards do you have? Lots and lots and lots.

How many go rogue in any given period? Enough that they turn up as a
shadowrunner archetype.

How much does it cost to radically overhaul your security and change all
your procedures? A not insignificant amount, plus the efficiency lost
because you're pulling people out for retraining.

>>Every corp does *not* kill runners, in the sense of hunting them down
>>days or months later. Some don't see it as worthwhile. Some don't have
>>the resources.
>
>Yes, every megacorp does nail runners after the run. Maybe not all the
>time, but it would be safe to say that every single megacorp has done it at
>least a dozen times in it's history.

Okay, out of how many runners and how many runs?

>>And the message you wish to send, and the message that reaches the
>>streets, may not - often will not - coincide.
>
>Why not? You put the message there. You own the shadows and they'll know
>what is meant by an action.

You do *not* own the shadows. There are *eight* megacorporations. Do
they *all* own the shadows? What about local independents? Do they all
co-operate to help each other? Or do each other in? I really cannot buy
this vision of cosy corporate co-operation you keep coming out with.

>>But it destroys the deterrent value of assassinating people for running
>>against you. "You mean that SmallCo was an Aztechnology subsidiary? No,
>>we checked and it's independent!" Yep, really makes the point. Either
>>you let runners get away with hitting you, or you reveal that this
>>"small independent" is actually in your pocket.
>
>Who says word on the street came from Aztechnology? It could very well have
>come from SmallCo and should come from them.

"Yup, right, this nickel-and-dime outfit just found the muscle to hunt
down and kill a runner team. Yesterday they had a contract with Jolly
Roger for security, today they can kill runners overnight. Of course
they're fully independent. I believe that."

>>And that assumes that the target of the run was the building or person
>>the runners attacked. What about those cases where the runners are
>>acting as a distraction, or as one part of a chain of dominoes, and they
>>have no idea that your corporation will be harmed or is even involved?
>>Yep, real deterrent effect there.
>
>What they don't know can and will be able to hurt them. Whether it goes
>public, shadow, corporate, or not known to anyone will be answered by the
>people making the decisions based on current circumstances.

You're spending money for no return. This is not the way to succeed in
business. Using assets to kill runners exposes them to risk, and costs
you money, and you do *not* do that without a concrete return.

>>If runners are, as your game seems to suggest, basically desperate
>>people who would leave the shadows if they could, then do they really
>>have the luxury of saying "boy, that sounds dangerous, I don't want to
>>run against *them*?" If it was an effective tactic, *all* corporations
>>would do it, and shadowrunners would die out en masse. That runners
>>still exist suggest that it is not a wholly effective tactic.
>
>Lots of samurai, magicians, riggers, and deckers work for corps. They make
>tons of money a lot safer than they would shadowrunning (samurai less so
>than the others). Oftentimes it's even legal for them to do what they do.

So why run the shadows, since you can be richer and safer elsewhere?

>As I said before, shadowrunners are a special breed that can live a life of
>a crime on the fringes of society. They will only do so if they (feel like
>they) have to. Maybe they feel they need excitement. Maybe they just can't
>do anything else. Maybe it is a way for them to get into the light and
>coast through the rest of their lives. Some of them will end up on a corp
>payroll, eventually.

No, they won't, because the corporations kill them. You've detailed many
times how corporations *always* hunt runners who cross them, and said at
length how the runners have no reasonable hope of escape from their
pursuers.

How does anyone survive more than three or four shadowruns? Every time
you do any sort of shadowrun, you cross someone and they launch their
military strike force to kill you. You can only play Russian roulette so
many times before your brains end up on the wall.


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 232
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 10:11:35 +1030
>Of course the Corps track down any Shadowrunners that they can find, and
>terminate them with extreme prejudice (I love that phrase!). That's why
>runners have to live in places like the Barrens.

2 things... the corps would have more security presence in the Barrens
than in Downtown. Second, if the corps killed any and all shadowrunners
that they can find, then why the hell are there shadowrunners left?

Ah what the hell... go play your game. I'm sure there's SOME point you
can see to it.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 233
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 10:11:45 +1030
>I think the Fairlight Excalibur is actually made by Fuchi (don't remember
>exactly where I read that but I seem to remember that from somewhere).

If I still had my NAN I book, I'd check, but AFAIK it's made by one of
the Peublo companies.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 234
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 10:11:53 +1030
>Set up a ward with one mage. I'll make him a newbie, just for kicks (MR6).
>He sets up a force 12 ward for a term of 30 days. The drain is 360L, so he
>gets a headache.

Neat trick... You're wrong. :)

"Warding requires the magician to make a Sorcery Test against a target
number equal to the desired Force Rating of the ward. Every 2 successes
rolled gives the ward 1 Rating Point as an astral barrier. The number of
successes is also the number of days the ward will last before
dissolving."

And later on:

"Drain for casting wards is (Force x Days)L. Drain is _never_ physical,
but the maximum Force rating a magician can use in setting a ward equals
twice his Magic Attribute."

And still further down:

"A magician can perform the ritual of warding to increase the lifespan of
exisiting wards. In this case, he uses the Force Rating of the existing
barrier as his target number and must use up additional ritual materials."

<Lecture mode on>
What does this mean, boys and girls? Well, for starters it means that
TopCat was totally wrong. :) Perhaps it's time for a working example.

Storm the security mage wants to set up a ward. With Storm's Sorcery
skill of 8, and Magic Attribute of 7, she could go for a Rating 14 ward.
:)

What force does she want? Well, as we saw, the more successes, the
stronger it is. This needs some explanation. The Force of the ward is the
rating the ward uses in Astral Combat. So this needs to be high. The
Rating Points of the ward (every 2 successes gives you 1 Rating Point) is
how hard it is just to walk through. This needs to be high as well. A
force 2 ward would be impossible to get through and last forever, but a
wiz-kid mage could destroy it by blinking. A force 14 ward would fry a
pretty good mage, but if the mage waited a day, the ward would be gone.
Either that, or the mage just walks through it.

So, looking at the numbers, Storm goes for a Force 6 ward. Storm rolls 8
dice (no Magic pool dice, people... Magic pool dice are only used to
augment _certain_ magical tests, and there's no mention of it in the Ward
section). For a TN of 6, Storm might get lucky and get 2 successes.
Gee... a Rating 1 ward that'll last 2 days. Back off, do it again. But
even with a Rating 4 ward, Storm is only like to get 4 successes. That's
not too hard to defeat.

(Oh, yeah... to pass through a barrier: From the main book. "To pass
through the barrier, the magician rolls the appropriate attack dice
(Armed or Unarmed Combat or Sorcery Skill) against a target number equal
to the rating of the barrier. At the same time, the Barrier's Rating in
dice is rolled against a target number equal to the Magic Rating of the
magician.")

So, looking at the figures, it's probably best to go for a Force 2 ward,
which will have a high Barrier Rating (oh, and last forever). Why?
Because you can detect when a ward has been destroyed... when it's been
penetrated, you can not.

<lecture mode off. Have a nice day.>


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 235
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 21:02:11 -0400 (EDT)
At 05:24 PM 5/25/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Of course the Corps track down any Shadowrunners that they can find, and
>terminate them with extreme prejudice (I love that phrase!).

That's already been disproven.

>That's why runners have to live in places like the Barrens. I personally can't
>abide the kinds of runners who are living in high-class neighbourhoods in
>swanky mansions, etc, etc...I mean, the only way they could be doing that
>would be by using a fake SIN, and no SIN is that good. And how long do
>you think they could live there on purely illegal earnings anyway? How
>long do you REALLY think it would take for the IRS (or the 2057
>equivalent) to start crawling up their ass with a microscope?

Errr, then how do you explain runners with lifestyles higher than "squatter"?


--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer
Message no. 236
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 02:56:29 -0500
>> Renraku cuts telecommunications in the UCAS. Is there going to be a fight?
>UCAS nationalizes the telecommunications network. If Renraku puts up a fight
>the military will be more then happy to deal with it. In fact after Chicago
>I woudln't be surprised if there was a backup communications network
>controlled by the goverment to be used in case of just such emergencies..

It can't nationalise the telecomm network, they already lost their shot at
ever nationalising any megacorporate asset when they lost the Shiawase
decision. The UCAS shot it's own foot.

>> Nope. UCAS will cave in immediately. Fuchi cuts all power. There a fight
>> now? Still no. UCAS concedes defeat.
>Again UCAS nationalizes the resorces.

Again, they can't, so it won't happen.

> Sure Fuchi could destroy its
>plants but I don't think even a magacorp would take that big of a loss
>(at least nationalized there's a chance of getting them back through
>legal action).

Why destroy? That'd be stupid, which corps aren't. Just shut them down for
a little bit (about an hour at most should be the end of any threat) and
then you're back in business, charging the UCAS government extra for the
time that their people didn't have access to power and smiling all the way.

> All vital national security instillations of course have
>there own power supply. Yes this one can couse problems but if they
>actually blow there plants then Fuchi will undoubtably see all it's
>holdings in UCAS confiscated and it's top corporate personal prosecuted
>(and I wouldn't be surprised if a few seal teams "extracted" some board
>members from Fuchi's Japanesse headquarters, just before it's demolished
>by bombs from a flight of stealth aircraft.

You clearly have no idea how powerful corporations are in SR. Either that
or you play a game where they are like they are in 1996. Now for more
interesting bits of knowledge: who made those stealth aircraft for the
UCAS? A corp. Now would they make something that could come back and hurt
them? No, they aren't stupid. Next, security for corp installations of
comparable to that of military installations, at least in a 2057 campaign it
is. Any act of war on any corp by any nation will lead to the corps
dropping Thor-shots on that country's capital until the country realizes
that it is really, totally screwed.

>> Aztechnology decides to back the NAN
>> fully again. Oh my.
>If NAN dosn't make any preperations to start it's war with UCAS again then
>nothing happens. If they do then a preemptive nuclear strike destroys
>much of Aztlan to prevent them giving magical aid to NAN. The moral of
>this if you want to play with the big boys be prepared to pay the price.

You've missed a great deal of SR info in assuming that a nuclear strike is
possible. First, the NAN shut down a previous attempt at just that using
magic. Next, nuclear weapons are forbidden to own in 2057. Forbidden, as
in breaking of treaty type of forbidden. Which means every company out
there as well as every corp nails the UCAS hard and fast and before the
first missile clears it's silo, the UCAS is ash.

> Or maybe they start feeding troops to help CAS's
>> cause.
>CAS and UCAS arn't at war, CAS and Aztlan on the other hand. If UCAS ever
>really wanted to ruin Aztechnologys day all they need to do is give CAS
>military support in the retaking of Austin.

You really haven't caught up on 2057. CAS and UCAS are currently on the
brink of a major war. Aztlan has had problems with Texas before, but hasn't
done much to the CAS aside from that. Texas still isn't sure if it wants to
be CAS anyway.

>> Yikes. The countries of the world don't stand the beginnings of a
>> chance against any corporate power out there.
>
>UCAS has the problem that it can't retaliate in small incriment when
>fighting a corp it's an all or nothing proposition. The corps should
>remember this when trying to figure just how far they can push UCAS.

It can't retaliate at all in 2057 without losing every single thing it has.
That's my point. Truth as the game sets it up, not my opinion.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 237
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 02:56:36 -0500
>> I think the Fairlight Excalibur is actually made by Fuchi (don't remember
>> exactly where I read that but I seem to remember that from somewhere).
>New one for me in my game Fairlight Inc is run by a bunch of deckers from
>a secret facility somewhere in LA (Excaliburs arn't exactly hire
>production items).

Then your game is different. Please explain this before you post next time.

>There is a very special kind of nationalization for extraterritorial entities
>it's called an invasion.

Which they can't pull off without dying in the process, I've described the
consequences of any such action quite clearly.

>Tell me have you ever heard of the threat (T) Roosevelt used against the
>coal mine owners in the early part of this century?

Teddy Roosevelt of 2057? Nope, haven't heard a thing about him. There's
still coal mines in 2057?

>And UCAS dosn't have it's own Thor-shot? Not to mention the nukes they keept
>are no doubt on ballistic missile subs so dropping on UCAS insures
>nothing except that Tokayo will recive a 20 megaton bomb the hard way.

The UCAS doesn't have Thor-shots, the corporate court owns & controls them.
They just sit out in space and wait to be dropped on their target(s). I
wonder why you haven't realized yet that I've said several times in no
uncertain words that nukes are a major no-no in 2057. Use of one (known
possession of one as well) would get the found target nailed badly by every
nation/corp in the world.

>> I'm sure they kept a couple of keepsakes, but if they were to use them, then
>> every country in the world as well as every corp in the world would come
>> down on them like the hand of an angry god.
>And burying UCAS in thor-shot wouldn't? What I was refering to was a
>reinstatement of the great ghost dance which most nations would consider the
>equivalent to an impending nuclear attack.

Which is my point. The UCAS knows what would happen so would never even
dream of doing something so stupid as attacking a megacorp.

> > So I don't think the UCAS would
>> have much, if anything to do with attacking any corp.
>Hum nock out zurich orbital, destroy the corporate headquaters of each of
>the big 8. Hope that they intercept the incoming thor-shot and generally
>prepare for WWIII.

Can't intercept a thor-shot. You know what it is? A steel rod with a
dog-brain homing system that drops from space at a velocity that allows for
explosions that make nukes look like firecrackers. No explosive in 'em.
Just REALLY fast and high mass. Mass driver is the popular phrase for such
a thing. Good luck getting near the Orbital with any military might, the
stuff that place has makes the old "Star Wars" program of the 80's look pitiful.

The UCAS isn't stupid. They would never bring down that kind of hell on
themselves. They know better.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 238
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Killing in Shadowrun
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 02:56:39 -0500
Since Paul absolutely refuses to acknowledge that I have (many times) stated
that killing runners who get identified is one choice of many, will not
happen all the time, is done based on current circumstances, or is even
possible, I would like to call this to an end. If someone refuses to listen
to what you are saying before arguing (and especially if they don't seem to
read it at all), it is very frustrating.

Now, some of the points, hopefully he'll read this fully and understand what
I have been trying to say for the past month.

Corps are not all comfy cozy with each other, but they don't always know
everything about each other either. Corps are more secretive than most
countries because they handle more money. Every single corp has at one time
or another killed a runner. Most (any corp with the resources, which is
definitely any mega out there) will have tracked runners down and killed
them before.

In my campaign (and in all others I've ever been in), it is suicide to run
on a megacorp. Suicide. I run them with the security measures they have
available. It is not, however suicide to run on their tiny subsidiaries.
You might even survive a raid on a mediocre subsidiary. If you're very good
you might make it through a high-level subsidiary.

Now, about resources. As a shadowrunner, you won't have anywhere near the
resources that even low-level subsidiaries will have. Which means you have
to make less mistakes. Lots of resources make for a massive buffer that'll
absorb a good quantity of mistakes. Shadowrunners can afford to make none
unless the corp they run on makes them also, and then they get lucky. Could
they be smart enough to get through the buffer? Yes, but they can't make
mistakes or they will get nailed. Shadowrunners rarely have the ability to
call in reinforcements or to send another whole security team around to get
the targets in a crossfire. If a shadowrunner team loses a member, it loses
20% of the team. If security loses a member, it loses a far lower
percentage. Could shadowrunners be smart enough to get through a run
unscathed and unmet? I've never seen a team pull it off yet and doubt I
ever will. Even the most simple of security measures will draw fire on the
runners.

Our economic views are completely incompatible. You are focused in on a
view directly related to your company and what has happened within it. I
have been a member of several corporations and government agencies. My work
was in the US. Yours in the UK. Obviously our social, political, and
economic views differ greatly and won't be resolved. Nearly everything
you've mentioned in your argument in the thread has seemed ludicrous to me.
I assume that which I've mentioned to you has seemed so as well.

I also have the view (as supported by the literature and game resources)
that corporations rule the world in 2057. Everybody knows it and they deal
with it as they will. The corps won't ever relinquish (or be at the point
where someone can force them to relinquish) their power, nobody can match
them. The fact that the corps created, support, and own the shadows is
prevalent in my arguments. The fact that corp security assets are amazing
and should never be taken lightly is also prevalent. Shadowrunners are not
tightly linked. They don't all like each other or help each other. They
might even despise each other and mostly just won't give a shit one way or
the other about the other guy unless he's muscling in on your work. If he
makes a mistake should you pay for it? Nope. Let him go, live longer, and
maybe have a drink in his honor if he was an ok guy. Corps are not exempt
from mistakes and rivalries and whatever else the world is about (which was
blatantly stated, quoted, and then taken completely wrong by Paul). I never
said they were. But they have the resources to better handle anything that
does go awry.

You've pinned the "all corps will every single time track down and kill
every single runner with every single available resource and military asset
they have each and every time that a run is pulled off on them even if it
was for nothing and then share a beer and talk about it afterward" label on
me. None of this was ever said by me in ANY context. You may've taken it
that way, but that was due to misreading and/or misunderstanding that was
what I meant. I've explained my views over and over and still they get no
recognition. I hope you realize that now.

So you like to play a game where corps are mildly incompetent (as compared
to my almighty corps), clueless to the shadows, and much nicer all around,
except to each other. That's fine, but everything about the game suggests
otherwise (aside from corps being mean to each other, which I believe
wholeheartedly in). I take things maybe a little further than the game
normally does (maybe, but if so only in the slightest). I don't let any
runner get anything free. If they want something done, they had better plan
it as best as possible and work with that plan. If a military unit built on
a plan, but wasn't followed and mistakes were made, that unit would end up
dead, mostly dead, partly dead, or extremely lucky to be anywhere near
alive. Same is true with shadowrunners. Same is true with corps.

Anyway, I hope you read this and understand where I've been coming from,
Paul. You haven't got it from the other posts, so maybe this one'll get it
all settled.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 239
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 02:56:44 -0500
>>With cash (see above). Or someone buys it for him. Once he's back home,
>>all's well and he can eat whatever he wants when he wants. He could also
>>pack sandwiches or whatever else he felt like, because he's only going to be
>>out there for maybe a day or two.
>Being an unperson *everywhere* you go could get grating for a
>professional.

Shadowrunner, anyone?
>So, they have gear that is not distinctively corporate - in other words,
>not noticeably better than could be found on the street. Ditto their
>weapons. There go two advantages right away.

What do your runners have access to? Streetline specials for all, maybe a
few switchblades and a Remington Roomsweeper for the really rough times?
Yours use military equip, which can be got on the streets today (it'll be
MUCH easier to get come 2057). So street-level should be more than enough,
thank you.

>You put a cranial area bomb in my head, and I am not going to be a
>particularly happy or motivated person. Period. Sort of destroys the
>idea that "you are the best, you are the elite" that you were trying to
>inculate. And what if someone works out how to trip those bombs? There
>go your team, just like a scene from Scanners.

You don't know anything about the cranial area bomb. The person who put it
in you does. Just the way things go.

>>Shadowrunners don't have these? In my game they do, everyone does. That's
>>the way of the world. No eutopias for any one side, everyone's got
>>problems. Cyberpunk.
>Yes, but you don't seem to apply this to the corporations, and that's
>one of my gripes.

That exactly what I just said there. That "everyone's got problems" bit.
Everyone does include corps.

>Airliners don't have RHAWS gear. Remember Iran Air 655? First warning
>they were under attack was SM-2 shrapnel coming through the fuselage.

Not in 1996 they don't. We're dealing in 2057. At least I am.
>And so you use C-16 instead, which is new and ahead of the sniffer
>curve... you hope. Measure, countermeasure.

Countermeasures are usually released at the same time as the measure itself.
Radar detectors & radar guns are a prime example of this. At most it takes
a week for the CM to get out. Of course, your runners have a hefty supply
of C-16 lying around, as well.

>>There's only so many ways in. Limit those to the minimum feasible and cover
>>them well. SOP.
>If only, if only, if only. This is an open society, remember?

How does an open society have to deal with a doorway?

>>>If the corporation with all its powers can't find someone, a bounty-
>>>hunter is going to have an interesting time, though his/her intel and
>>>contacts will probably be better.
>>I am saying that a corp can find them relatively easily. And every bit of
>>info they have will go toward helping the bounty hunter. I still can't
>>believe that you actually think that a bounty hunter will have better intel
>>and contacts than a corp, though. Corps own the world, sahdows included.
>TopCat, when did I say that? *Your* point was that if the corporation
>was having trouble, the bountyhunter would do the job instead.

First off, you said it in your quote right up there. Second, my point was
that they could hire bounty hunters to aid in their efforts. It's not like
you wouldn't use anything you knew to aid his efforts or anything. I mean,
why make it easy on the bounty hunter? Right? (sarcasm off) A bounty
hunter is just one more way a corp can handle things. And they won't handle
things in only one manner, that'd be silly.

>And the corporations do *not* own the shadows, otherwise they couldn't
>exist. Some parts of town, an overt corporate presence spells a healthy
>body that the doc at the chopshop will pay double for, not to mention
>expensive clothes, a portable 'phone, jewelry... *wealth*.

That same doc who gets his supplies from the corp uptown? That sells a good
deal of his acquired goods to that corp? That gets paid major nuyen to
dispose of bodies when the need arises? He'll be real interested in
stripping down one of those guys for some street punk.

>My shadows are a *bad* place at the bottom.

Mine are bad all around.

>>The bounty hunter would probably be intelligent, and at least enough so that
>>he'd know to wait a minute while that cop wandered away. The bounty hunter
>>probably would not face off with the runner in a visible manner. One minute
>>he's walking down the street, the next he's passed out with a dart-load of
>>gamma-scopolamine in his system (or a stunbolt echoing through his brain)
>>and being restrained (magemask and riot cuffs), hauled into the back of a
>>truck, and driven away. Then the runner gets a trial courtesy of the corp.
>>If it isn't the right guy, he gets a dose of laes and ends up in an alley
>>outside a bar, missing his wallet, credsticks, and memories.
>Jesus H. Christ, you give your corporations *way* too much leeway.
>Reverse it. Could the government get away with this? Could runners do
>it? There are too many opposing factions involved to blithely say "this
>power can do what it wants".

Yes, the goverment can and does get away with it. Yes, people get kidnapped
here and are never found again. We have bounty hunters in the US today. It
doesn't pay too badly and you get to see the countryside. Could a corp with
more resources than a country or even more than a kidnapper get away with
it? Hmmm...

>What if you're immunised against gamma-scopolomine, or wearing
>conductive form-fit, and you survive that attack? Or you break your
>DocWagon Platinum contract, and your abductor has to explain to a HTR
>team what he's doing with you.

You will survive that attack. It's a snatch, see? But I guess you're
trying to say "What if I don't go down from the first shot?" You get shot
again. Maybe this time he uses a taser or a cascade or an apds round. Will
you know where your assailant is at if you don't hear/see anyone? Just
because I know what'll be said, yes shadowrunners can do this (they often do
in your campaign, I'd guess) so governments and corps can too.

>And what if "the wrong guy" is a corporate citizen whose corporation
>resents your treatment of its people? That dose of laes wiped out some
>promising information, and they are angry. Payback time.

He doesn't remember anything about being abducted by anyone. Just that he
woke up outside a bar and he'd been mugged. His lost memories must've been
the product of heavy drinking or a hit to the head. So the corp goes and
wipes out the bar he was found at if they want payback for them serving
their boy too much or being in a bad part of town (this'd be stupid in my
campaign and wouldn't happen, just so you know). What will probably happen
is one demoted/fired employee.

>>A little bit of thought. Like 1 second through a tactics skillwire of any
>>decent level. Then the bit of time it takes to brief everyone.
>And I have the same skillwire, give it the problem, look at the
>solution. Then I use that to plan an attack.

Nice info you have there. That you have the same skillwires that the corp
uses (they'd probably just use a deck program anyway) and that yours would
be as good as theirs and operate in exactly the same manner. I'm impressed.
Not by the GM, though.

>Please, I have friends getting shot at over there, so don't blather
>garbage about a situation of which you know so little. England has,
>rightly or wrongly, been in Ireland since 1155: North America was
>"Vinland" and known only to a few Vikings at that point. If we have no
>business there, then the white man has no place on the American
>continents.

We had no place on the American continents, but it was the English and
Spanish who propogated that little bit of near genocide on this side of the
world. Remember now, we were colonized by someone (mainly the English) and
weren't our own country until near the end of the 18th century. The Indians
had been "handled" quite well by our previous owners (the English) by then.

>>As I explained before, England and Ireland are homogenous in the
>>extreme compared to the US today.
>Ever been here? Like I said, try a whistlestop tour. A week in Exmouth,
>a week in Portsmouth, a week in Haringey, a week in Leicester.

Never been there, have more than enough friends who have described it to me.
Maybe one day I'll go there. If I see anywhere near the ethnic diversity
that the US has, then I'll repent my views. I know I won't though. You
simply have no idea of the sort of diversity we have here. (60 million is
quite small to 260 million when you look at it that way, isn't it?)

>If they used Mark 11s they could do it easily. They hit Downing Street,
>remember?

A drive-by isn't hitting Buckingham Palace. If they bombed it or raided it,
then I would be impressed.

>The US has no real experience of terrorism.

Oh man, does THIS have me laughing!

>How many go rogue in any given period? Enough that they turn up as a
>shadowrunner archetype.

That means absolutely nothing. Unless of course, you believe that there are
as many former company mages out there as there are detectives. Which could
mean that a LOT of company mages go rogue. My thoughts are that it means
that someone could actually be a former employee of a corp and a shadowrunner.

>>Yes, every megacorp does nail runners after the run. Maybe not all the
>>time, but it would be safe to say that every single megacorp has done it at
>>least a dozen times in it's history.
>Okay, out of how many runners and how many runs?

There is no set number. It all goes by circumstances and by orders from on
high. There will never be a "That run was the third, we get to attack them"
situation.

>You do *not* own the shadows. There are *eight* megacorporations. Do
>they *all* own the shadows? What about local independents? Do they all
>co-operate to help each other? Or do each other in? I really cannot buy
>this vision of cosy corporate co-operation you keep coming out with.

Yes, they do. Most "independent" corps are owned by a mega somewhere along
the line or they aren't worth enough for the mega to buy. If independent
means shadowrunner, then who does he work for? He's going to end up working
for *drum roll* a corp. They'll fight each other if and when they can (the
CC frowns on this). That's why they use shadowrunners in the first place,
so they can fight each other in big ways and not be held accountable. I
have never in any bit of this thread put the corps together as cosy friends.
They will, however, fight united if someone threatens corporate superiority
in any way (which'll never happen).

>>Who says word on the street came from Aztechnology? It could very well have
>>come from SmallCo and should come from them.
>"Yup, right, this nickel-and-dime outfit just found the muscle to hunt
>down and kill a runner team. Yesterday they had a contract with Jolly
>Roger for security, today they can kill runners overnight. Of course
>they're fully independent. I believe that."

If they were nickel-and-dime and using rent-a-cop security, would a run on
them be worth anything at all? Nope. Would a run happen on them? Only if
the team was in terrible need of cash and there was a rival piddly corp who
wanted to pull a prank on them. Way to get those 100 nuyen contracts!
You'll be rich soon...

>No, they won't, because the corporations kill them. You've detailed many
>times how corporations *always* hunt runners who cross them, and said at
>length how the runners have no reasonable hope of escape from their
>pursuers.

You haven't read a word I've said over the past week, then. I'm very
disappointed.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 240
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 02:56:50 -0500
>>> If employees are effectively free, why did the US
>>>invent the term "downsizing"?
>>Downsizing has never (in any circumstance that I know of) led to a decrease
>>in security. It has led to a whole lot of early retirement programs and
>>pink slips for people too old, stubborn, or stupid to learn the new
>>techniques that the corp/org was using. I've seen this dozens of times and
>>I applaud the effort wholeheartedly. It is the cutting away of dead flesh
>>from the corp/org.
>No it isn't, and again I speak as a veteran. What happens is that those
>people with bright ideas that were troublesome find themselves
>jettisoned: those "careful" plodders who never offended anyone entrench
>themselves. The capable and competent seek jobs elsewhere, and you find
>yourself left with those who can't or won't go elsewhere. Which are the
>old and the stubborn and the stupid: the smart vote with their feet.

And I speak as the son of a Vice President of a large consulting firm and a
Union/Management & User/Programmer Liason for the Illinois Department of
Revenue. I've watched downsizing for YEARS and have seen it illustrate my
previous material (see above) unerringly.

>>But,
>>once again, I have never seen it hit security.
>The point remains - if employees are "assets" why get rid of them?

Employees are only assets if they can do the job. If they can't, then they
become liabilities. It is actually possible for one employee to be an asset
while another is a liability. Liabilities get nailed in downsizing.

>>Your market is a dangerous one to play in. And you only deal in that
>>market. Megas handle every market, most handle some markets more than
>>others, but they all have their fingers in every pie they can get a hold of.
>>They deal in limited demand markets as well as high demand markets and
>>min/max their efforts to produce net worth. Doesn't sound like your company
>>min/max'd for their market very well or they missed a trend that others saw.
>>That's not an accountant's fault, but he can tell you the end result.
>We saw a trend everyone saw. That was the collapse of the Soviet Union
>and the peace dividend.

You reacted to it late, then.

>Unfortunately, it happened a little rapidly for anyone to be able to do
>much about it.

Someone made money off the deal somewhere. Every time money is lost
somewhere, somewhere else pulls in a gain.

>The point remains: accountants merely tell you where you were and where
>you are. They are no use at all at telling you where to go next.

If that's all you believe accounting is good for, I can see why the company
failed.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 241
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 02:56:53 -0500
>The arms embargoes on Israel and South Africa - for that matter, Serbia
>- crippled their armed forces, didn't they? Serbia didn't even have
>trouble getting oil.
>The oil embargo on Rhodesia was enormously effective... not.

An arms embargo is not a total trade embargo, nor is an oil embargo.

>Embargoes raise prices, but unless you get a situation as clear-cut as
>Iraq - who basically antagonised everyone around, including all their
>neighbours - you see almost no long-term effects. Cut off South Africa's
>arms and you create Kentron and Denel, and suddenly you have
>competitors.

Embargos raise prices, yes. The right embargos (food, medical supplies)
cause serious problems. Those which cause problems will be effective.
Those which do not, won't. Full-scale trade embargos are crippling in the
extreme. Corps can pull that sort of power down.

>Food? Most of the grain states are still in the UCAS.

And owned by megacorps. Megacorps didn't build little islands off the
coasts when they went extraterritorial, they walled off their currently
owned pieces of formerly-UCAS land. Whenever they pick up new pieces, guess
what? It becomes extraterritorial under the megacorp banner, too.

>And let's see... summary nationalisation, anyone? Knocking down all
>corporate satellites above the UCAS? Armed cordons around all "foreign"
>factories, interdicting all goods? Corporate freighters sinking at sea?

The UCAS doesn't have the power to handle that scale of operation, they
could barely handle Chicago and Washington D.C. at the same time, let alone
corporate scale assets. The corps would rain thor-shots on them before they
even fired their first shot. Shortly thereafter would come near-total
surrender to the corps. Which is why the UCAS would never do anything this
stupid. My hypothetical answers to the hypothetical question of the UCAS
invading a corp are correct, but would never happen because the UCAS isn't
stupid enough to try it.

>This all adds up to a massive, damaging and unprofitable pissing match
>in which the UCAS' goal is simply survival and the corporations intend
>to make a profit. War, for a corporation, is a no-win game. They win by
>not fighting, and not pushing nations into situations where a nation
>loses less by war than by negotiation.

They win by a single show of unsurmountable force and never have to do it
again, there is no war. Just a few buttons pushed, a couple million spent,
and the surrender of a nation to corporate power. Ever read Hardwired?
Remember what the corps did there? Now call them thor-shots instead of meteors.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 242
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 17:43:25 +1030
>The UCAS doesn't have Thor-shots, the corporate court owns & controls them.
>They just sit out in space and wait to be dropped on their target(s). I
>wonder why you haven't realized yet that I've said several times in no
>uncertain words that nukes are a major no-no in 2057. Use of one (known
>possession of one as well) would get the found target nailed badly by every
>nation/corp in the world.

That at least is untrue... It's a known fact that the UCAS (and probably
the CAS... can't remember) have nukes. No-one's sure if they still work,
though, in this age of magic. Besides, the UCAS can't use nukes on the
Indians... the fallout would get them too.

Odds are France still has it's nukes, and so would the Russian Repbulic.
China is broken up, but there are still, apparently, some nuke bombs
around.

And it's suspected generally that the corps have nukes, too.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 243
From: Ubiquitous <weberm@*******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 04:16:28 -0400 (EDT)
At 02:56 AM 5/26/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Since Paul absolutely refuses to acknowledge that I have (many times) stated
>that killing runners who get identified is one choice of many, will not
>happen all the time, is done based on current circumstances, or is even
>possible, I would like to call this to an end.

In other words, ScatCat's original view has proven wrong and he can't deal
with it. It's about time!


--
"I remember my first sexual encounter because I kept the recipe."
- Jeff Dahmer
Message no. 244
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 12:11:02 +0100
Valerie A Olson said on 12:09/25 May 96...

> Did you ever see a movie called Navy Seals? It shows a sniper up in a
> tower, who takes a guy out through a wall. I think that the sniper rifles
> in SR, are supposed to be similar to that 50 cal. I don't think that 50
> cal weapons are even allowed in the us are they?

As far as I know, .50 sniper rifles are for sale in the US. Not that I'd
view it as the definitive source, but More Guns! says about the Barrett
M82A1: "its construction as semi-auto only and lack of restrictions by the
manufacturer on sales qualify it as a civilian weapon." This is a book
from 1993, so by now things may have changed, of course.

BTW, if you look at the opening story in the Elven Fire adventure, the
Ranger Arms SM-3 is described as a .655 caliber weapon.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I only wanted something else to do but hang around...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 245
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 12:11:02 +0100
Stephen Delear said on 16:33/25 May 96...

> Depends on who the target audiance is. Fairlight isn't owned by any of
> the big 8 but they still have fairly good sales. Then again fairlight
> has some advantages that most small corps don't ("mess with us and your
> system gets hit buy deckers using things that make the excalibure look
> like a childs toy").

I don't think I ever read anything about who or what owns Fairlight. For
all we know, it's been set up by Renraku to sell top-of-the-market
cyberdecks, while Sony and Radio Shack are also owned by Renraku to make
cheap decks for the masses.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I only wanted something else to do but hang around...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 246
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 01:17:26 +0100
>The UCAS screwed up their potential for nationalising when they lost the
>Shiawase case that led to extraterritoriality in the first place, Aztlan
>almost got butchered because they actually went through with it (but did so
>way before the right measures were put in place).

Troops on the ground is nine-tenths of the law. Make it clear at the
time that you did this because Fuchi had contracted to supply
electricity, and defaulted on the contract, and the civil unrest thus
caused required the UCAS to act in self-defence. Translation: they
pushed us. See what happened to them. Push us and see what happens you
you. Or keep selling and keep making money. Want to sell us some power?

>Renraku is actually a
>MAJOR force in the food production markets (check CFS). Who owns most farms
>today in the US? Corporations. They own TONS of farmland. The few piddly
>privately-owned farms don't produce anywhere near the volume of the
>corp-owned farms.

And you use your army - which outsizes the corporate forces nicely - to
seize food shipments in the name of national security. You want to drive
on UCAS roads? Pay a food tax of 90% of your cargo. Legal, effective,
unpopular but so what? Or let the food rot at the farm, in which case
summary nationalisation.

Meanwhile the corporations no longer have access to the UCAS market.
They are spending fortunes on emergency additional security where they
used to be raking in profits. Exactly what was the advantage here again?

And just announce that the megacorps have huge food stockpiles inside
those perimeters. By Day Three the guards will be out of ammo and the
corporate sites looted empty, because nobody likes starvation.

Expensive. Now, where was the return that justified this?

>I know quite a few people on both sides of the farming
>circle, from corp owners to farm families (you get to know these people
>living in Illinois and especially in the capital thereof). The big get
>bigger every year and the small get smaller. That's just the natural way of
>things. The corps grow their food where the family farmers grew theirs til
>they got bought out.

And the UCAS offers preferential rates to smallholdings to "support
rural agriculture". Corporate-owned farms are subject to tariffs and
controls to keep the small independents going. The government takes care
of food supplies. In extremis, you import from overseas.

>The corps own the world in 2057, it'd take far less time for the corps to
>rain enough Thor-shots to bury the UCAS in ash than it would for the UCAS to
>arm their nuclear arsenal: which they don't really have anymore, nukes were
>banned worldwide and destroyed back in the early part of the 21st century.
>I'm sure they kept a couple of keepsakes, but if they were to use them, then
>every country in the world as well as every corp in the world would come
>down on them like the hand of an angry god. So I don't think the UCAS would
>have much, if anything to do with attacking any corp.

Why not? You push them into a situation where they are helpless, and the
corporations are basically crapping all over them. Corporate citizens
don't vote. UCAS citizens do. There are votes in standing up to the
corps, so politicians will do so. Yes, you can buy politicos easily. An
eight-way split, assuming only the Big Eight play, and you have deadlock
unless you attack all corporations together, which you *never* do: you
pick on the unreasonable behavior of *one* corp, contrast it to the
enlightened and fair behaviour of its competitors, and go from there.
The other corporations grab the offered market share, and are careful
not to be caught making the same mistake without full Court backing.

The corporations have turned off the 'phones, the lights, and the food.
The nation is in total chaos already. Either restore the status quo, or
Zurich Orbital gets a faceful of missiles. What, in that scenario, does
the UCAS have to lose? In a very few days it ceases to exist as a nation
anyway.

And in this scenario, why would "every country in the world" come down
on them? A lot of countries would stand aside and say "not our problem".
Others would applaud: the corporations will be making a lot of enemies
in this scenario. Apart from Aztlan, why would any nation complain about
the UCAS wiping out some of the corporate military assets that could be
turned on them next?


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 247
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 01:32:01 +0100
In message <Pine.3.89.9605251742.B11339-0100000@****.bga.com>, Stephen
Delear <shadow@***.com> writes
>
>
>On Sat, 25 May 1996, TopCat wrote:
>
>> I can very well pictures US marines in LA after having been to several other
>> countries and cities, because it happens. When you're in the US, it is very
>> rare to see a city or town that has one culture. Extremely rare. Maybe a
>> few towns with a population of 100 or less would be. Most likely they'll
>> have varying ethnic backgrounds no matter where you look, but I just live
>> here, so don't take my word. Marines in LA look just like other people in
>> LA, no visible differences. There is no American ethnic group. We
>> represent thousands of different ethnicities. That's why it is extremely
>> easy to blend into a crowd here.
>
>A corporate strike team may fit perfectly well into corporate culter but
>unless they have prior experince they arn't going to fit to well into the
>barrens (this is probably not true for groups that opperate in the
>barrens alot or)

There are more obvious problems. Even in heavily mixed societies, you
get "neighbourhoods". Asian districts, Irish districts, Jewish
districts. Try sending a team of "mixed, representative racial types" to
infiltrate an Asian gang in central Bradford that does some running on
the side. Inconspicuous, sure, sure, especially because you need to do
some final recce work to verify your target, move into position, wait
for them to show at your chosen ambush site...

If you rely on intelligence to go in, hit, get out, sooner or later that
intel will be bad and you'll lose the whole team to a rival
corporation's ambush. They have, after all, the resources to do that.

>Ever wonder why chipjacks are so popular amoung these groups.

Yeah, but I can imagine trying to use "chip English" in Portsmouth and
passing it off as local, then trying the same in Lincoln, in Glasgow, in
Abergavenny, in Newcastle... It would help a lot for comprehension, but
there would still be times when you think "what the hell did he just
say?" whether you're using a chip or you're a native speaker.

>> I have tons of reasons. Site security is the foremost of these. They don't
>> "only hunt down runners" which I have stated time and again throughout
this
>> thread. They are fully capable of doing so, however, should the need arise.
>
>If the runners our good then the corp shouldn't be able to track them
>after a run.

TopCat's corporations can find anyone anywhere, remember.

>> Yikes. The countries of the world don't stand the beginnings of a
>> chance against any corporate power out there.
>
>UCAS has the problem that it can't retaliate in small incriment when
>fighting a corp it's an all or nothing proposition. The corps should
>remember this when trying to figure just how far they can push UCAS.

The point exactly. Corporations, acting en masse, have enormous economic
power and can devastate any nation, even the UCAS. The problem is they
*must* be acting in concert to do so: unless the cause is incredibly
good, such as unprovoked nationalisation of corporate assets by the
nation in question, then it becomes worthwhile for individual
corporations to break the embargoes and destroy the effect.

Nations can afford more military muscle than corporations. But they
cannot bring that power to bear without very good reason.

Corporations hold the upper hand, but the nations can play them off
against each other, and are far from being helplessly supine. What hurts
one corporation helps two others. Exploit that.

Governments can be much more dangerous enemies than corporations for
player characters: after all, you are in UCAS jurisdiction far more than
any corporation's, and there are far fewer holds barred then.
Intelligence gathering and military operations that would approach casus
belli if done by an extranational corporation become legitimate law
enforcement, just as they do when the runners cross into corporate turf.


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 248
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 12:47:42 +0100
In message <9605260756.AC29879@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>Since Paul absolutely refuses to acknowledge that I have (many times) stated
>that killing runners who get identified is one choice of many, will not
>happen all the time, is done based on current circumstances, or is even
>possible, I would like to call this to an end. If someone refuses to listen
>to what you are saying before arguing (and especially if they don't seem to
>read it at all), it is very frustrating.

No, TopCat. Please, stop trying to twist my words.

I said that corporations would not, as a rule, hunt down shadowrunners
who had operated against them: but that they would retain that option to
punish careless or excessively violent runners, and discourage
collateral damage.

You proceeded to argue at length that the corporations would never allow
a runner team who had succeeded against them to live, and would devote
great effort to hunting them down.

I tried to debate that.

>Now, some of the points, hopefully he'll read this fully and understand what
>I have been trying to say for the past month.
>
>Corps are not all comfy cozy with each other, but they don't always know
>everything about each other either. Corps are more secretive than most
>countries because they handle more money. Every single corp has at one time
>or another killed a runner. Most (any corp with the resources, which is
>definitely any mega out there) will have tracked runners down and killed
>them before.

Of course. If there was a reason or a return to be made.

You may be more secretive, but you are bigger, spread around the world,
depending on communications, and controlling the ebb and flow of vast
sums of wealth. Even when you tiptoe, the world shakes. A consequence of
power.

And there are *far* larger rewards to be made from studying your
competitors than trying to track handfuls of street scum, so guess where
the best intelligence officers are posted?

One failing, TC, is you seem over-focussed on the shadows. The
shadowrunner scene is almost a distraction, compared to the
corporations' *real* business. If you change that, of course - if you do
enough damage, become too obvious - then our worldviews flip, and that
runner is in for an action-packed, exciting, but mostly short life.
Survival is staying below tha threshold.

>In my campaign (and in all others I've ever been in), it is suicide to run
>on a megacorp. Suicide. I run them with the security measures they have
>available. It is not, however suicide to run on their tiny subsidiaries.
>You might even survive a raid on a mediocre subsidiary. If you're very good
>you might make it through a high-level subsidiary.

Security is proportionate to what it defends. Even a AAA megacorp can be
penetrated if the site only does vehicle tyre research and is scheduled
for closure in three months, to take an extreme: but if you want to
break into Aztechnology's main weapons development site, better write
your will before you go.

<Resources stuff agreed and snipped>

>Our economic views are completely incompatible. You are focused in on a
>view directly related to your company and what has happened within it. I
>have been a member of several corporations and government agencies. My work
>was in the US. Yours in the UK. Obviously our social, political, and
>economic views differ greatly and won't be resolved. Nearly everything
>you've mentioned in your argument in the thread has seemed ludicrous to me.
>I assume that which I've mentioned to you has seemed so as well.

Let's just say that you seem to be applying Reagan economics sometimes.

>You've pinned the "all corps will every single time track down and kill
>every single runner with every single available resource and military asset
>they have each and every time that a run is pulled off on them even if it
>was for nothing and then share a beer and talk about it afterward" label on
>me. None of this was ever said by me in ANY context. You may've taken it
>that way, but that was due to misreading and/or misunderstanding that was
>what I meant. I've explained my views over and over and still they get no
>recognition. I hope you realize that now.
>
>So you like to play a game where corps are mildly incompetent (as compared
>to my almighty corps), clueless to the shadows, and much nicer all around,
>except to each other.

No. I play a game where the corporations are concentrating on making
money. Shadowrunners have to cause quite a ripple before they attract
attention: when they do, they are quickly and efficiently eliminated,
unless they have secured some sort of protection - usually from another
corporation, sometimes from elsewhere - that buys them an escape route.


>Anyway, I hope you read this and understand where I've been coming from,
>Paul. You haven't got it from the other posts, so maybe this one'll get it
>all settled.

I wish you'd been clearer on the attitude, TopCat. It seems you got all
wound up because I suggested that there were occasions when a
corporation wouldn't hunt down a runner team, and you *were* vehement
that there were excellent reasons to do so every time.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 249
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 13:37:22 +0100
>>Being an unperson *everywhere* you go could get grating for a
>>professional.
>
>Shadowrunner, anyone?

Shadowrunners are desperate and only do it because they have no option,
remember?

>>So, they have gear that is not distinctively corporate - in other words,
>>not noticeably better than could be found on the street. Ditto their
>>weapons. There go two advantages right away.
>
>What do your runners have access to? Streetline specials for all, maybe a
>few switchblades and a Remington Roomsweeper for the really rough times?
>Yours use military equip, which can be got on the streets today (it'll be
>MUCH easier to get come 2057). So street-level should be more than enough,
>thank you.

Availability on submachine guns hovers around 3-5. Ditto assault rifles
like the AK and HAR. You use them when you need them... like when a
corporate strike team lands on you. This is a starting team: pros have
acquired things like Ares Alphas.

These are, after all, the runners who were good enough to break in, get
their target and get out, through your security, not a couple of lost
go-gangers.

>>You put a cranial area bomb in my head, and I am not going to be a
>>particularly happy or motivated person. Period. Sort of destroys the
>>idea that "you are the best, you are the elite" that you were trying to
>>inculate. And what if someone works out how to trip those bombs? There
>>go your team, just like a scene from Scanners.
>
>You don't know anything about the cranial area bomb. The person who put it
>in you does. Just the way things go.

And when one of your partners' head detonates, you aren't going to
wonder if you have one in there yourself? And still the problem that a
rival corporation might work out how to send the "detonate" signal. They
would, after all, have the resources to do so.

>>Airliners don't have RHAWS gear. Remember Iran Air 655? First warning
>>they were under attack was SM-2 shrapnel coming through the fuselage.
>
>Not in 1996 they don't. We're dealing in 2057. At least I am.

RHAWS and especially countermeasures for an airliner-size platform equal
tons of extra weight, equal *big* extra costs over the thirty years of
the airliner's life. How likely is a shootdown? And will this help
against magical attack, or an irate Dragon? A lot of *military*
aircraft, helos especially, don't have this gear.

>>And so you use C-16 instead, which is new and ahead of the sniffer
>>curve... you hope. Measure, countermeasure.
>
>Countermeasures are usually released at the same time as the measure itself.
>Radar detectors & radar guns are a prime example of this. At most it takes
>a week for the CM to get out. Of course, your runners have a hefty supply
>of C-16 lying around, as well.

Runners aren't working alone, remember? A rival corporation supplies
them with some experimental explosive. *Should* get through the
sniffers. If it doesn't, it was a deniable field test and nobody can
prove anything.

And it took years before Czech Semtex could be reliably detected, not
weeks.

>>And the corporations do *not* own the shadows, otherwise they couldn't
>>exist. Some parts of town, an overt corporate presence spells a healthy
>>body that the doc at the chopshop will pay double for, not to mention
>>expensive clothes, a portable 'phone, jewelry... *wealth*.
>
>That same doc who gets his supplies from the corp uptown? That sells a good
>deal of his acquired goods to that corp? That gets paid major nuyen to
>dispose of bodies when the need arises? He'll be real interested in
>stripping down one of those guys for some street punk.

The doc gets his supplies from which corp? You have a one-in-eight
chance of being unlucky. Otherwise, the doc looks at this Fuchi corpse
with some interesting cyber and calls his contact at Ares. "Hey, Bill,
got something for you."

>>Jesus H. Christ, you give your corporations *way* too much leeway.
>>Reverse it. Could the government get away with this? Could runners do
>>it? There are too many opposing factions involved to blithely say "this
>>power can do what it wants".
>
>Yes, the goverment can and does get away with it. Yes, people get kidnapped
>here and are never found again. We have bounty hunters in the US today. It
>doesn't pay too badly and you get to see the countryside. Could a corp with
>more resources than a country or even more than a kidnapper get away with
>it? Hmmm...

You're dealing with a much more mixed situation here. Example? Georgi
Markov. Bulgarian chap, worked for the BBC. Murdered by the Bulgarian
intelligence service in London in 1980. Caused a little bit of a ruckus.
Another example? A 13-year-old boy, dual citizen - British-Nigerian -
being held by the Nigerian authorities for questioning. Made the evening
TV news, even though they're holding him entirely legally.

Runners can do it, can fail, die if they do. Corporations who fail risk
exposure and embarrasment, and the consequences of that show up in the
bottom line.

>>And what if "the wrong guy" is a corporate citizen whose corporation
>>resents your treatment of its people? That dose of laes wiped out some
>>promising information, and they are angry. Payback time.
>
>He doesn't remember anything about being abducted by anyone. Just that he
>woke up outside a bar and he'd been mugged. His lost memories must've been
>the product of heavy drinking or a hit to the head. So the corp goes and
>wipes out the bar he was found at if they want payback for them serving
>their boy too much or being in a bad part of town (this'd be stupid in my
>campaign and wouldn't happen, just so you know). What will probably happen
>is one demoted/fired employee.

Sure, sure. This guy had some sensitive info in his head and now it's
gone. We found laes traces in his blood. Go digging in his mind and the
last clear memory is a stinging pain in the back of the neck from some
sort of drug dart. Major corporate resources, remember?


>
>>>A little bit of thought. Like 1 second through a tactics skillwire of any
>>>decent level. Then the bit of time it takes to brief everyone.
>>And I have the same skillwire, give it the problem, look at the
>>solution. Then I use that to plan an attack.
>
>Nice info you have there. That you have the same skillwires that the corp
>uses (they'd probably just use a deck program anyway) and that yours would
>be as good as theirs and operate in exactly the same manner. I'm impressed.
>Not by the GM, though.

"A tactics skillwire of any decent level", remember? Not "a corporate-
only high-end tactical database" but "a tactics skillwire of any decent
level".

>>Please, I have friends getting shot at over there, so don't blather
>>garbage about a situation of which you know so little. England has,
>>rightly or wrongly, been in Ireland since 1155: North America was
>>"Vinland" and known only to a few Vikings at that point. If we have no
>>business there, then the white man has no place on the American
>>continents.
>
>We had no place on the American continents, but it was the English and
>Spanish who propogated that little bit of near genocide on this side of the
>world. Remember now, we were colonized by someone (mainly the English) and
>weren't our own country until near the end of the 18th century. The Indians
>had been "handled" quite well by our previous owners (the English) by then.

So how come we had Native American contingents allied to us during the
wars then? Guess we really upset them, huh? Compare that to the kind and
considerate treatment meted out by the US...

>>Ever been here? Like I said, try a whistlestop tour. A week in Exmouth,
>>a week in Portsmouth, a week in Haringey, a week in Leicester.
>
>Never been there, have more than enough friends who have described it to me.
>Maybe one day I'll go there. If I see anywhere near the ethnic diversity
>that the US has, then I'll repent my views. I know I won't though. You
>simply have no idea of the sort of diversity we have here. (60 million is
>quite small to 260 million when you look at it that way, isn't it?)

We're nearer the European mainland than you, we got more refugees in
World War 2 and elsewhere: an influx of Poles (like my grandfather),
Czechs, French, Danes and Norwegians. We also had the Empire and then
the Commonwealth, and until fairly recently encouraged immigration -
from the Asian subcontinent, the Far East, the West Indies. Now we have
a lot of Hong Kong residents trying to get in.

Like I said, take a look and I'll show you ethnic diversity. And stop
saying "you simply have no idea", it's becoming grating when you're so
ill-informed about my home.

>>If they used Mark 11s they could do it easily. They hit Downing Street,
>>remember?
>
>A drive-by isn't hitting Buckingham Palace. If they bombed it or raided it,
>then I would be impressed.

Drive-by? They dropped half a dozen mortar bombs into Whitehall and blew
out the windows of the Cabinet Room during a meeting. Like I said, you
don't really know what you're talking about here.

>>The US has no real experience of terrorism.
>
>Oh man, does THIS have me laughing!

Sure. World Trade Centre and Oklahoma City. ...And?

You have litter baskets in airports and railway stations. You can leave
luggage in an airport without having it destroyed in "controlled
explosions". You do not have determined terrorist organisations
targeting your military and law enforcement, alternating that with
attacks on "soft targets" like shopping centres and business districts
when they run out of competent individuals.

And you do not have sanctimonious foreigners raising money for these
terrorists "for humanitarian assistance". Yeah, right, that
"humanitarian assistance" comes from Czecholsovakia via Libya in paper-
wrapped half-kilo bricks, paid for courtesy of NORAID.

Like I said: you have no fucking idea at all.

>>Okay, out of how many runners and how many runs?
>
>There is no set number. It all goes by circumstances and by orders from on
>high. There will never be a "That run was the third, we get to attack them"
>situation.

You were earlier saying that it made sense to declare that *all* runners
would be hunted and killed, and this entire argument grew out of your
defence of that claim.

>>You do *not* own the shadows. There are *eight* megacorporations. Do
>>they *all* own the shadows? What about local independents? Do they all
>>co-operate to help each other? Or do each other in? I really cannot buy
>>this vision of cosy corporate co-operation you keep coming out with.
>
>Yes, they do. Most "independent" corps are owned by a mega somewhere along
>the line or they aren't worth enough for the mega to buy. If independent
>means shadowrunner, then who does he work for? He's going to end up working
>for *drum roll* a corp. They'll fight each other if and when they can (the
>CC frowns on this). That's why they use shadowrunners in the first place,
>so they can fight each other in big ways and not be held accountable. I
>have never in any bit of this thread put the corps together as cosy friends.

But you overlook completely that if a team of runners has weaked Corp A,
then Corps B to H have an interest in helping them do so againL:
firstly, to further weaken A, and secondly to keep that team (now of
demonstrated capability) from coming after you.

>They will, however, fight united if someone threatens corporate superiority
>in any way (which'll never happen).

Unless it's done in such a way that one corporation is the target, and
the others have something to gain.

>>"Yup, right, this nickel-and-dime outfit just found the muscle to hunt
>>down and kill a runner team. Yesterday they had a contract with Jolly
>>Roger for security, today they can kill runners overnight. Of course
>>they're fully independent. I believe that."
>
>If they were nickel-and-dime and using rent-a-cop security, would a run on
>them be worth anything at all? Nope. Would a run happen on them? Only if
>the team was in terrible need of cash and there was a rival piddly corp who
>wanted to pull a prank on them. Way to get those 100 nuyen contracts!
>You'll be rich soon...

Security is expensive. Work out how much it costs to have six men on
duty around the clock.

And merely because they are small and lack protection *now* doesn't mean
they have nothing of value. They may have a major discovery that's worth
a *lot*... if they could only find a partner to mass-produce it. Cheaper
to simply go in and take it.

>>No, they won't, because the corporations kill them. You've detailed many
>>times how corporations *always* hunt runners who cross them, and said at
>>length how the runners have no reasonable hope of escape from their
>>pursuers.
>
>You haven't read a word I've said over the past week, then. I'm very
>disappointed.

I've read every word you've written.

> If a corp didn't go after every team that performed an extraction,
> they'd go broke. If they at least make an effort to nail every team,
> then they might catch some and get the job done. Which is a lot
> better than never doing anything, especially in the eyes of the
> stockholders. And those eyes are the ones that matter.

> So, realistically speaking, a corp damn well better send a team out
> there to take care of anyone who has cost them anything or they could
> end up losing major market share fast. Would you want to own stock in
> a company that loses valuable assets on a daily basis or would you
> want to own stock in the company that eradicated a terrorist threat to
> their facility with minimal losses? Easy answer there...

And later,

> A corp that always eliminates attackers will have the highest number
> of investors as well as a healthy stock of shadow assets of their own.

Your words, no? Where does this say "corporations don't always kill
runners"? This is what I read, this is what I responded to.


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 250
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 13:45:02 +0100
>>No it isn't, and again I speak as a veteran. What happens is that those
>>people with bright ideas that were troublesome find themselves
>>jettisoned: those "careful" plodders who never offended anyone entrench
>>themselves. The capable and competent seek jobs elsewhere, and you find
>>yourself left with those who can't or won't go elsewhere. Which are the
>>old and the stubborn and the stupid: the smart vote with their feet.
>
>And I speak as the son of a Vice President of a large consulting firm and a
>Union/Management & User/Programmer Liason for the Illinois Department of
>Revenue. I've watched downsizing for YEARS and have seen it illustrate my
>previous material (see above) unerringly.

>From your point of view it would, TC. The MD was happy with the result,
compared to the worst-case.

Of course, the actual employees weren't quite so happy.

They still aren't happy now.

We can't recruit because "you're the firm that laid off half its people
five years ago". I got turned down for a bank loan because I couldn't
get payment protection insurance on it: three years after the axemen
came, our employees still are not considered secure credit risks by
local businesses. Nationally, word hasn't gotten out, luckily, or
getting a mortgage could have been... interesting.

Good for morale? Encouraging employees to support the company, take
risks that might pay off, raise their profile? Or promoting the idea of
being inconspicuous and offending nobody? And, crucially, persuasive
that you should stay with the company if you get a better offer from
elsewhere?

>>The point remains - if employees are "assets" why get rid of them?
>
>Employees are only assets if they can do the job. If they can't, then they
>become liabilities. It is actually possible for one employee to be an asset
>while another is a liability. Liabilities get nailed in downsizing.

A very optimistic view, and one that suggests more experience of
observing from the top than the bottom.

>>We saw a trend everyone saw. That was the collapse of the Soviet Union
>>and the peace dividend.
>
>You reacted to it late, then.

It was a little quick. Months rather than years.

>>Unfortunately, it happened a little rapidly for anyone to be able to do
>>much about it.
>
>Someone made money off the deal somewhere. Every time money is lost
>somewhere, somewhere else pulls in a gain.

Sure, sure, just like in the States. Tell that to Grumman's airframe
division.

>>The point remains: accountants merely tell you where you were and where
>>you are. They are no use at all at telling you where to go next.
>
>If that's all you believe accounting is good for, I can see why the company
>failed.

We didn't fail: mostly because we kicked out the accountants and pushed
hard on the engineering and marketing side, and played a lot of
politics. If we'd left the accountants in charge, we would definitely
have collapsed or been sold off.


"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 251
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 14:42:21 -0500
At 05:43 PM 5/26/96 +1030, Robert wrote:
>>The UCAS doesn't have Thor-shots, the corporate court owns & controls them.
>>They just sit out in space and wait to be dropped on their target(s). I
>>wonder why you haven't realized yet that I've said several times in no
>>uncertain words that nukes are a major no-no in 2057. Use of one (known
>>possession of one as well) would get the found target nailed badly by every
>>nation/corp in the world.
>[snipped "people still have nukes in 2057"]

In 1996, everyone knows that certain governments have certain things but
they don't officially know because if they let out that they officially
knew, then that gov't might let out that they officially knew that the gov't
blaming them has them too. Sort of a nasty international legal stand-off.
Nukes are this same way in 2057. But it seems that a great deal of them
have been dismantled or rendered useless (per the SoP trilogy).

What would happen in 1996 if a country decided to use a nuclear device on
another country? Serious international repercussions along the lines of
trade sanctions (probably total) and loss of right to have a military.
These would be enforced by the combinec might of the United Nations. S'why
the countries of the Middle East haven't reduced themselves to one big field
of glass yet. They know what the consequences of such actions are.

-------------------------------------
"I was thinking of the immortal words
of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
-- Real Genius
-------------------------------------
TopCat at the bottom...
Message no. 252
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 19:04:56 -0700
>The UCAS doesn't have Thor-shots, the corporate court owns & controls them.
>They just sit out in space and wait to be dropped on their target(s). I
>wonder why you haven't realized yet that I've said several times in no
>uncertain words that nukes are a major no-no in 2057. Use of one (known
>possession of one as well) would get the found target nailed badly by every
>nation/corp in the world.

Hmmm. I don't recall reading anything in Shadowrun that says anything about
"Thor" weapons one way or another. In my game, UCAS and any other
corp/nation in orbit has 'em.

And as far as possession, Ares has them, and the UCAS definitely has an
arsenal. The balance of terror on the North American continent is the NAN's
Great Ghost Dance versus the UCAS nuclear arsenal.

>Can't intercept a thor-shot. You know what it is? A steel rod with a
>dog-brain homing system that drops from space at a velocity that allows for
>explosions that make nukes look like firecrackers. No explosive in 'em.
>Just REALLY fast and high mass. Mass driver is the popular phrase for such
>a thing.

Actually, one can easily intercept a thor-shot with an endoatmospheric
nuclear-tipped SAM, or just a plain kinetic-kill device (if you want to
knock out the electronics, or knock it off course). I worked for a quarter
on an Aerojet design for a "Theater Ballistic Missile Defense" system with
just this capability. Old ABM treaty allowed for these, and the Nike
facility in the 70's could do it with ease. A thor weapon is not
particularly hard to track and intercept.

Second, a de-orbiting kinetic kill device is NOT a massdriver. A massdriver
is a device using magnetic fields to propel a projectile.

Third, a thor shot does not have the same energy density as a nuclear
weapon. The kinetic energy of a thor is large for tactical purposes, but
not on the same scale as a nuclear weapon. If that was true, we could fire
ICBMs without the bother of putting warheads on the tip, as an ICBM
acquires a substantial fraction of orbital velocity (especially the
high-angle shots over the poles). Also bear in mind that all the energy you
get from the thor was paid for in the cost of lifting the device to orbit.

One could make a kinetic kill device to rival nuclear weapons out of, say,
a handy asteroid or nearby comet. But it would be childs' play to track and
destroy with nuclear weapons. Plus, all the nations and megacorps of the
world would look with extreme suspicion at the perpetrator:

"What? No, this 80 kiloton asteroid is in LEO for, uh, ease of mining. Yes,
we positively guarantee that no unfortunate, uh, accidents will occur.
Really."

>Good luck getting near the Orbital with any military might, the stuff that
>place has makes the old "Star Wars" program of the 80's look pitiful.

Actually, as mentioned on p. 89 of Corporate Shadowfiles, it's not hard to
chuck a Surface to Orbit Missile at Zurich-Orbital and leave a peice "just
about big enough to make a nice paperweight."

>The UCAS isn't stupid. They would never bring down that kind of hell on
>themselves. They know better.

Yes, the real reason Z-O isn't capped off is the economic sanctions the
Corporations would bring to bear. Not military: the megacorps together
don't field enough military assets to give nations like UCAS, CIS, or
Imperial Japan a problem. It is the economic and political influence of the
megacorps that counterbalances the military might of the nations.

Well, that and plenty of black-ops like assassinations and stuff. But not
overt, military pressure.

>TopCat at the bottom...

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 253
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 00:54:21 -0500 (CDT)
On Sun, 26 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> Then your game is different. Please explain this before you post next time.

Actually since I've never seen anything official on who makes the
fairlight I figured it had to be a fairly small group.

>
> >There is a very special kind of nationalization for extraterritorial entities
> >it's called an invasion.
>
> Which they can't pull off without dying in the process, I've described the
> consequences of any such action quite clearly.

How are you going to shut off the power when UCAS military has ejected
all of your personal from the facility.

>
> >Tell me have you ever heard of the threat (T) Roosevelt used against the
> >coal mine owners in the early part of this century?
>
> Teddy Roosevelt of 2057? Nope, haven't heard a thing about him. There's
> still coal mines in 2057?

Basically he told the coal mine owners that they would either settle a
strike with their workers or he would send in the troops to opperate the
mine and give them orders to shoot to kill any one who stood in there
way. The owners caved rather quickly.

>
> >And UCAS dosn't have it's own Thor-shot? Not to mention the nukes they keept
> >are no doubt on ballistic missile subs so dropping on UCAS insures
> >nothing except that Tokayo will recive a 20 megaton bomb the hard way.
>
> The UCAS doesn't have Thor-shots, the corporate court owns & controls them.

Sure and I suppose you also belive North Koria dosn't have the bomb.

> They just sit out in space and wait to be dropped on their target(s). I
> wonder why you haven't realized yet that I've said several times in no
> uncertain words that nukes are a major no-no in 2057. Use of one (known
> possession of one as well) would get the found target nailed badly by every
> nation/corp in the world.

I'm sure the citizens of Chicago wish some one had told Ares that. Also
we're talking about a responce to the resumption of the Ghost dance here,
most nations and corps consider that worse then nukes.

>
> >> I'm sure they kept a couple of keepsakes, but if they were to use them, then
> >> every country in the world as well as every corp in the world would come
> >> down on them like the hand of an angry god.
> >And burying UCAS in thor-shot wouldn't? What I was refering to was a
> >reinstatement of the great ghost dance which most nations would consider the
> >equivalent to an impending nuclear attack.
>
> Which is my point. The UCAS knows what would happen so would never even
> dream of doing something so stupid as attacking a megacorp.

Actually no corp would be stupid enough to push UCAS into a fight or die
situation.
>
> > > So I don't think the UCAS would
> >> have much, if anything to do with attacking any corp.
> >Hum nock out zurich orbital, destroy the corporate headquaters of each of
> >the big 8. Hope that they intercept the incoming thor-shot and generally
> >prepare for WWIII.
>
> Can't intercept a thor-shot. You know what it is? A steel rod with a
> dog-brain homing system that drops from space at a velocity that allows for
> explosions that make nukes look like firecrackers. No explosive in 'em.
> Just REALLY fast and high mass. Mass driver is the popular phrase for such
> a thing.

Do you know how big one of those things would have to be to reach the
surface with out burning up. You might want to have a look at some of
the theorys on intercepting meteorites in the upper atmospher before you
say that thor-shot can't be intercepted. Basically you blow it into
small enough chunks that they burn up during reentery (not at all hard if
you only have to shatter a steal rod). Oh and keep in mind that it takes
time for thor-shot to hit the ground (these things are droped from really
high up) I wouldn't be at all surprised if UCAS had a last ditch magical
defense against these things (last time I ran the figures the UCAS
millitary had around 2000 magically active personal how much they can do
depends on how big the strike is).

> Good luck getting near the Orbital with any military might, the
> stuff that place has makes the old "Star Wars" program of the 80's look
pitiful.

Do you have any idea how many ways there are to take out a space
station.

>
> The UCAS isn't stupid. They would never bring down that kind of hell on
> themselves. They know better.

UCAS spend 250 billion on it's millitary last year a magacorps yearly
proffits are only around 100 billion. The corps know better then to
force UCAS to act against them. Even with out using nukes do you have
any idea the kind of firepower UCAS packs. These people maintain six (or
more) carrier battle groups for gods stake! The only corps with anything
like a carrier group are Aztechnology (or should I say the goverment of
Aztlan) and I would presume Ares. The corps can push around most
goverments but going toe to toe with the UCAS army is not something they
want to try.

Stephen

>
> -------------------------------------
> "I was thinking of the immortal words
> of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
> -- Real Genius
> -------------------------------------
> TopCat at the bottom...
>
>
Message no. 254
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 02:05:33 -0500 (CDT)
On Sun, 26 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> It can't nationalise the telecomm network, they already lost their shot at
> ever nationalising any megacorporate asset when they lost the Shiawase
> decision. The UCAS shot it's own foot.

Why can't it? The equipment is within UCAS boarders isn't it? Send it
the troops capture the comunications centers, bring the system back
on-line and let the lawyers figure out if UCAS could legally do it.

>
> >> Nope. UCAS will cave in immediately. Fuchi cuts all power. There a fight
> >> now? Still no. UCAS concedes defeat.
> >Again UCAS nationalizes the resorces.
>
> Again, they can't, so it won't happen.

Again they send in the troops and we get to see if the Marines can take
out a corps sec force. I'm putting my money on the Marines.

>
> > Sure Fuchi could destroy its
> >plants but I don't think even a magacorp would take that big of a loss
> >(at least nationalized there's a chance of getting them back through
> >legal action).
>
> Why destroy? That'd be stupid, which corps aren't. Just shut them down for
> a little bit (about an hour at most should be the end of any threat) and
> then you're back in business, charging the UCAS government extra for the
> time that their people didn't have access to power and smiling all the way.
>

Because if they don't destroy the plants the UCAS military will "divest" them
of this particular asset rather they like it or not.

> > All vital national security instillations of course have
> >there own power supply. Yes this one can couse problems but if they
> >actually blow there plants then Fuchi will undoubtably see all it's
> >holdings in UCAS confiscated and it's top corporate personal prosecuted
> >(and I wouldn't be surprised if a few seal teams "extracted" some board

> >members from Fuchi's Japanesse headquarters, just before it's demolished
> >by bombs from a flight of stealth aircraft.
>
> You clearly have no idea how powerful corporations are in SR. Either that
> or you play a game where they are like they are in 1996. Now for more
> interesting bits of knowledge: who made those stealth aircraft for the
> UCAS? A corp. Now would they make something that could come back and hurt
> them? No, they aren't stupid.

Becouse UCAS is paying lots of $$$ for those weapons and unless the corp
dose something REALLY out of line those weapons arn't going to be used
against them. If they put a deliberate weak spot in the weaponry not
only would there reputation as an arms dealer be shot but I doubt the
other corps would take action when UCAS brought up espionage charges.


> Next, security for corp installations of
> comparable to that of military installations, at least in a 2057 campaign it
> is.
I would only say that holds true for a couple Aztechnology
installations. Most corps don't keep a battalion or two of LAVS let
alone enought weaponry to do any reall damage. Take a look at the
Seattle Metroplex Guard (SRII 272) sure a corp might be able to handle
them but you have to admit it would be one hell of a fight. Now keep in
mind that the Guard are about the bottom of the heap when it comes to
UCAS millitary assest, hell they arn't even part of the regular military
and have nothing near military grade equipment.

> Any act of war on any corp by any nation will lead to the corps
> dropping Thor-shots on that country's capital until the country realizes
> that it is really, totally screwed.

How much Thor-shot do the corps have? You think DC isn't prepared for
such an event (especially if they're on the brink of war with another
nation). And how do you think the other nations of the world would react
to the Thor-shot bombing of DC. They drop Thor-shot UCAS demolishes all
of the big 8's corporate HQ's with conventional weapons. It only
escalates from there.


>
> >> Aztechnology decides to back the NAN
> >> fully again. Oh my.
> >If NAN dosn't make any preperations to start it's war with UCAS again then
> >nothing happens. If they do then a preemptive nuclear strike destroys
> >much of Aztlan to prevent them giving magical aid to NAN. The moral of
> >this if you want to play with the big boys be prepared to pay the price.
>
> You've missed a great deal of SR info in assuming that a nuclear strike is
> possible. First, the NAN shut down a previous attempt at just that using
> magic.

We arn't talking about hitting NAN we're talking about hitting Aztlan
and taking out the power source for the ghost dance (what NAN would gain
from starting it again is beyond me though).


> Next, nuclear weapons are forbidden to own in 2057. Forbidden, as
> in breaking of treaty type of forbidden.

Oh a treaty I'm real scared. Besides if you only want a tac nuke there
are conventional weapons with equivalent power.

> Which means every company out
> there as well as every corp nails the UCAS hard and fast and before the
> first missile clears it's silo, the UCAS is ash.

Silo's are hard to hide, subs aren't. So you're going to launch an
attack on a nation that's just proved to be willing to drop the big
stuff. Lovely, just lovely I would rather take my chances with the
Thor-shot (which is not as uninterceptable as you seem to think).

>
> > Or maybe they start feeding troops to help CAS's
> >> cause.
> >CAS and UCAS arn't at war, CAS and Aztlan on the other hand. If UCAS ever
> >really wanted to ruin Aztechnologys day all they need to do is give CAS
> >military support in the retaking of Austin.
>
> You really haven't caught up on 2057. CAS and UCAS are currently on the
> brink of a major war. Aztlan has had problems with Texas before, but hasn't
> done much to the CAS aside from that. Texas still isn't sure if it wants to
> be CAS anyway.

So UCAS makes them an offer, we'll give you the weapons and air support
if you'll fight this piddly little country that only has an army of 150K
for us. Oh and you get to keep any land you take. Oh and quote me the
book a page you get that UCAS and CAS are on the brink of war from.

>
> >> Yikes. The countries of the world don't stand the beginnings of a
> >> chance against any corporate power out there.
> >
> >UCAS has the problem that it can't retaliate in small incriment when
> >fighting a corp it's an all or nothing proposition. The corps should
> >remember this when trying to figure just how far they can push UCAS.
>
> It can't retaliate at all in 2057 without losing every single thing it has.
> That's my point. Truth as the game sets it up, not my opinion.


Let's see UCAS: Fuck with us and find out what a real military can do.

Corps: Try it and we'll drop Thor-shot on your capitol!

UCAS: How much do you have? Well you might be able to get through DC's
defenses, if you do though every nation on earth will see the corporate
threat for what it really is.

Corps: So what we'll do the same thing to them.

UCAS: After we destroy the headquarters of each of the big 8 seems you'll
be a little distracted. Oh as we've been talking seal teams have
captured the chairmen of each of the big 8 corps. They'll be released
when you destroy your Thor-shot.

Corps: So what we'll drop it any way.

UCAS: Fine this conversation has been broadcast over live TV have fun
explaning your threats to your US shareholders.


Moral: Corps are big UCAS is bigger.
>
> -------------------------------------
> I was thinking of the immortal words
> of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
> -- Real Genius
> -------------------------------------
> TopCat at the bottom...
>
>
Stephen
Message no. 255
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 02:34:47 -0500 (CDT)
On Sun, 26 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> Embargos raise prices, yes. The right embargos (food, medical supplies)
> cause serious problems. Those which cause problems will be effective.
> Those which do not, won't. Full-scale trade embargos are crippling in the
> extreme. Corps can pull that sort of power down.

Not when they're produced in country of wait the corps are going to
starve there own employes. Oh I'm sure that'll have the desired effect.

>
> >Food? Most of the grain states are still in the UCAS.
>
> And owned by megacorps. Megacorps didn't build little islands off the
> coasts when they went extraterritorial, they walled off their currently
> owned pieces of formerly-UCAS land. Whenever they pick up new pieces, guess
> what? It becomes extraterritorial under the megacorp banner, too.
>
> >And let's see... summary nationalisation, anyone? Knocking down all
> >corporate satellites above the UCAS? Armed cordons around all "foreign"
> >factories, interdicting all goods? Corporate freighters sinking at sea?
>
> The UCAS doesn't have the power to handle that scale of operation, they
> could barely handle Chicago and Washington D.C. at the same time, let alone
> corporate scale assets.

I hate to brake it to you but Chicago requires far more assests then a
corporate attack would. To seal off a city that completly requires a
hell of a lot of manpower and if you actually read bug city you'll find
that only a small fraction of UCAS's forces are tied up there (can't make
any comment on DC though I havn't read the book).

> The corps would rain thor-shots on them before they
> even fired their first shot. Shortly thereafter would come near-total
> surrender to the corps. Which is why the UCAS would never do anything this
> stupid.

And I'm sure the Japanesse expected a quick surrender as well,
unfortunatly the american people don't take well to sneak attacks and a
Thor-shot attack would mean that UCAS would have to retaliate with
everything it had.

> My hypothetical answers to the hypothetical question of the UCAS
> invading a corp are correct, but would never happen because the UCAS isn't
> stupid enough to try it.

The Corps rule the world I'm not disputing that. However it's much
easier to buy a politician then to try to controll teritory by force of
arms.

>
> >This all adds up to a massive, damaging and unprofitable pissing match
> >in which the UCAS' goal is simply survival and the corporations intend
> >to make a profit. War, for a corporation, is a no-win game. They win by
> >not fighting, and not pushing nations into situations where a nation
> >loses less by war than by negotiation.
>
> They win by a single show of unsurmountable force and never have to do it
> again, there is no war. Just a few buttons pushed, a couple million spent,
> and the surrender of a nation to corporate power. Ever read Hardwired?
> Remember what the corps did there? Now call them thor-shots instead of meteors.

So you think the people of UCAS would surrender or that the other nations
of the world wouldn't fight back once the corps became a national
security issue (how much Thor-shot do they have any way).

>
> -------------------------------------
> "I was thinking of the immortal words
> of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
> -- Real Genius
> -------------------------------------
> TopCat at the bottom...
>
>
Stephen
Message no. 256
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 22:08:13 +0100
In message <9605261942.AB20031@**.cencom.net>, TopCat
<topcat@******.net> writes
>What would happen in 1996 if a country decided to use a nuclear device on
>another country? Serious international repercussions along the lines of
>trade sanctions (probably total) and loss of right to have a military.
>These would be enforced by the combinec might of the United Nations. S'why
>the countries of the Middle East haven't reduced themselves to one big field
>of glass yet. They know what the consequences of such actions are.

And why don't the corps drop those THOR bundles on national capitals?

S'right, they know what the consequences of that action will be.

Britain's had nuclear weapons for getting on for fifty years. How many
have we used in anger? Answer is "none", so they're useless, right?
Except how many have anyone used on us? Also none.

Give corporations this sort of destructive firepower, and overhauling
the MX system (or the Lone Eagles that replaced it accoring to the
books) starts to look like a sensible deterrent option.

Balance of terror again.

"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 257
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 11:30:22 +0100
>>The UCAS doesn't have Thor-shots, the corporate court owns & controls them.
>>They just sit out in space and wait to be dropped on their target(s). I
>>wonder why you haven't realized yet that I've said several times in no
>>uncertain words that nukes are a major no-no in 2057. Use of one (known
>>possession of one as well) would get the found target nailed badly by every
>>nation/corp in the world.

What's so special about a THOR that means no nation can have one?

If the corporations can have them so can nations. If nations have been
leveraged out of nuclear weapons they will find alternatives. The
corporations will prevent them? Look at the sterling success of the Non-
Proliferation Treaty in North Korea, Iraq, Pakistan and now Iran.

>>Can't intercept a thor-shot. You know what it is? A steel rod with a
>>dog-brain homing system that drops from space at a velocity that allows for
>>explosions that make nukes look like firecrackers. No explosive in 'em.
>>Just REALLY fast and high mass. Mass driver is the popular phrase for such
>>a thing.

No, a mass driver uses magnetic fields to accelerate the round - see
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" for an example. A THOR round is just a
smart rock.

It's also limited in its target effect, unless you're talking hundreds
of tons per round, and raising that lot into orbit is going to be quite
a challenge. It certainly doesn't make a nuclear weapon look puny,
though a few thousand "flying crowbars" dropped on a city would do some
pretty impressive damage. If dropping from orbit gave so much
effectiveness, you wouldn't need warheads in ICBMs.

>>Good luck getting near the Orbital with any military might, the stuff that
>>place has makes the old "Star Wars" program of the 80's look pitiful.

Sure, sure. Five tons of gravel in an intersecting orbit. Bye, bye,
Zurich-Orbital, you're going to vaporise every pebble? Or just a major
cloud of chaff and chemical flares (fuel and oxidiser together,
naturally) to seriously screw radar and IR, then a couple of ASATs while
the targeting systems for your defences are blind. Even a plain ASAT
would be a damn hard target to stop, since you have to vapourise every
significant fragment before it hits. You might have better technology,
but your warning time is less and you don't have an atmosphere to
protect you.

Z-O is a sitting duck for anyone with targeting data: that means major
nations and corporations. Nobody goes for it because those who can don't
have reason to, at least at the moment.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 258
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 16:43:31 -0400 (EDT)
On Sat, 25 May 1996, Ubiquitous wrote:

> At 05:24 PM 5/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >Of course the Corps track down any Shadowrunners that they can find, and
> >terminate them with extreme prejudice (I love that phrase!).
>
> That's already been disproven.

Maybe to your mind.

>
> >That's why runners have to live in places like the Barrens. I personally can't
> >abide the kinds of runners who are living in high-class neighbourhoods in
> >swanky mansions, etc, etc...I mean, the only way they could be doing that
> >would be by using a fake SIN, and no SIN is that good. And how long do
> >you think they could live there on purely illegal earnings anyway? How
> >long do you REALLY think it would take for the IRS (or the 2057
> >equivalent) to start crawling up their ass with a microscope?
>
> Errr, then how do you explain runners with lifestyles higher than
"squatter"?
>
The life style can be high without living in in Belleview! You could
spend your money to fix up the inside of an abandoned warehouse to be
like a mansion if thats what you desire! But ask yourself, if you have
that kind of money, why the hell are you risking your arse shadowrunning? >
You can't honestly believe that a runner could just blow into town and
buy a million dollar mansion, live a million dollar lifestyle, go to all
the "right" partys still run the shadows, and not have the irs crawl all
over you? just how good is your fake SIN? how do explain your wealth?
"no,no, I won it all at bingo, yeah thats it bingo!"

Cheers,
The ROO-MAN,
via his wife.
Message no. 259
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 00:13:24 -0500 (CDT)
On Sun, 26 May 1996, TopCat wrote:

> At 05:43 PM 5/26/96 +1030, Robert wrote:
> >>The UCAS doesn't have Thor-shots, the corporate court owns & controls
them.
> >>They just sit out in space and wait to be dropped on their target(s). I
> >>wonder why you haven't realized yet that I've said several times in no
> >>uncertain words that nukes are a major no-no in 2057. Use of one (known
> >>possession of one as well) would get the found target nailed badly by every
> >>nation/corp in the world.
> >[snipped "people still have nukes in 2057"]
>
> In 1996, everyone knows that certain governments have certain things but
> they don't officially know because if they let out that they officially
> knew, then that gov't might let out that they officially knew that the gov't
> blaming them has them too. Sort of a nasty international legal stand-off.
> Nukes are this same way in 2057. But it seems that a great deal of them
> have been dismantled or rendered useless (per the SoP trilogy).
>
> What would happen in 1996 if a country decided to use a nuclear device on
> another country? Serious international repercussions along the lines of
> trade sanctions (probably total) and loss of right to have a military.
> These would be enforced by the combinec might of the United Nations. S'why
> the countries of the Middle East haven't reduced themselves to one big field
> of glass yet. They know what the consequences of such actions are.
>

So wouldn't the same go for Thor-shoting some one back to the stone age?
Also what happens if there is a nuclear equivalent attack underway
(Thor-shot, Ghost Dance, Insect spirits, Earthdawn horrors) is saving
your country from anilation going to bring everyone down on you?

Stephen

> -------------------------------------
> "I was thinking of the immortal words
> of Socrates, who said: I drank what?"
> -- Real Genius
> -------------------------------------
> TopCat at the bottom...
>
>
Message no. 260
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:33:56 -0700
mike.diamond@********.org wrote:
>Sorry, no have data on either at the moment. Sending my gunsmith on a fact finding
tour now. As for a true .50 cal pistol ... I've only seen
one .... it's a single shot break-over breach loader from Thompson Arms.
This is a target/BIG game pistol that uses a special rimm fire round
instead of the center fire version we're all used to. The weapon is
intended to be fired from a sitting position and is equiped with an
adjustable butt extention used to brace against the ground next to the
shooter's pelvis. Barrel length 13.5", chamber length 6.5", NO magazine,
muzzle compensation of 2 types -- vectored blast deflection & HYDRAULIC
recoil cylinders (very unique, normally found on canon), wgt 7.3kg
(definetly not concealable). The cartridge is a semi wad cutter design,
no shoulder, the initiator charge in the rimm is PETN and the primary
propellent is gun cotton (old timey stuff), original case design was used
in the old Hotchkiss .50cal MGs of the 1890s and W.W.I(the only change is
the PETN as opposed to picric acid). According to the US Army War
College the effective range on this puppy is just over 3km LOS (USMC avg
kill range for snipers with H&K .50cal sniper rifle is 5km).
Message no. 261
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:25:05 -0500
>>Yep, and the UCAS gov't knows Renraku's special ops teams. Uh-huh. Does
>>our military know where the best strike teams of other militaries are at?
>>Not a chance in hell.
>
>Actually, yeah... during the Cold War, for example, the US knew where the
>Russians trained and based their Spetnaz strike teams, and the Russians
>sure as heck knew where Fort Bragg was, and where the various Marine
>elite units trained. They probably even had a good idea of where the
>SEALs were.
>
Thats true, yes, but I would think this would be more on the level of "Where
do the Mossad train at?"

Mike Broadwater
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! Yeah, baby, yeah!" - The Evil
Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
Message no. 262
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:27:53 -0500
>Alex van der Kleut wrote:
>> AS an aside, they screwed up in there by naming a carrier Wolverine. As
>> far as I know, carriers are named after either
>> a) famous navy battles (U.S.S. Coral Sea)
>> b) admirals (Nimitz)
>> c) famous ships (Enterprise)
>> d) misc (America)
>>
>> Definately not animals, fish, states, etc.

I don't know about animals and fish (the USS Echidna anyone?) but there are
lots of US battle ships named after states (the USS Alabama, USS Missouri, etc.)

Mike Broadwater
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! Yeah, baby, yeah!" - The Evil
Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
Message no. 263
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 09:53:07 -0500
>>Did you ever see a movie called Navy Seals? It shows a sniper up in a
>tower, who takes a guy out through a wall. I think that the sniper rifles
>in SR, are supposed to be similar to that 50 cal. I don't think that 50
>cal weapons are even allowed in the us are they?
>
>Cheers,
>The ROO-MAN,
>via his wife.
>
I believe the sniper in Navy Seals was supposed to be using a Barret Light
50 (oddly enough, very similiar to the Barret in FoF :) I always thought
that the reason sniper rifles were illegal and hunting rifles weren't was
because of the bore of the sniper rifle. 22 vs. 50 or whatever.



Mike Broadwater
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! Yeah, baby, yeah!" - The Evil
Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
Message no. 264
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:18:23 -0500
>> The corps own the world in 2057, it'd take far less time for the corps to
>> rain enough Thor-shots to bury the UCAS in ash than it would for the UCAS to
>> arm their nuclear arsenal: which they don't really have anymore, nukes were
>> banned worldwide and destroyed back in the early part of the 21st century.
And chemical/biologicals were banned earlier this century, and of course, no
one has _those_ anymore. "Hey everyone, you can throw away your CBR's!"

Mike Broadwater
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! Yeah, baby, yeah!" - The Evil
Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
Message no. 265
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:15:35 -0500
>Z-O is a sitting duck for anyone with targeting data: that means major
>nations and corporations. Nobody goes for it because those who can don't
>have reason to, at least at the moment.
>
Another question that begs to be answered is "What would be the point of
going after Z-O?" It might be the seat of corporate power, but thats all,
the seat. It'll take out the top levels of the corps, but it's not going to
shake the corps into breaking. Good business don't put all their eggs in
one basket.

Mike Broadwater
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! Yeah, baby, yeah!" - The Evil
Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
Message no. 266
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 18:55:09 +0100
In message <199605281709.NAA29215@*****.itribe.net>, Mike Broadwater
<mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com> writes
>>Z-O is a sitting duck for anyone with targeting data: that means major
>>nations and corporations. Nobody goes for it because those who can don't
>>have reason to, at least at the moment.
>>
>Another question that begs to be answered is "What would be the point of
>going after Z-O?" It might be the seat of corporate power, but thats all,
>the seat. It'll take out the top levels of the corps, but it's not going to
>shake the corps into breaking. Good business don't put all their eggs in
>one basket.

True, but it's also the home of the people who ordered the THOR-shots
dropped on your major city, and that might have a deterrent effect on
them. Give the order, die sucking vacuum. Brings a very personal meaning
to MAD...

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 267
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 18:48:31 +0100
In message <Pine.HPP.3.91.960527163639.22122F-100000@********>, Valerie
A Olson <volson@********.ca> writes
> The life style can be high without living in in Belleview! You could
>spend your money to fix up the inside of an abandoned warehouse to be
>like a mansion if thats what you desire! But ask yourself, if you have
>that kind of money, why the hell are you risking your arse shadowrunning?

Because you're addicted to the adrenalin?

Because you like not taking a corporate paycheck, yet still having
plenty of cash?

Because you can't see any other gainful employment that you'd enjoy?

Because you used to be a corporate security bozo, got tired of sitting
at +5 alert for weeks on end and taking shit from the suits, and figure
the risks are worth it?

>You can't honestly believe that a runner could just blow into town and
>buy a million dollar mansion, live a million dollar lifestyle, go to all
>the "right" partys still run the shadows, and not have the irs crawl all
>over you? just how good is your fake SIN? how do explain your wealth?
>"no,no, I won it all at bingo, yeah thats it bingo!"

"I'm a software consultant. I'm afraid I can't disclose more details, my
employers are rather touchy about security, but here are my financial
records. I believe I owes this amount in taxes, which I paid upfront?
Oh, I'm due a rebate? That's very kind of you."

Part of your lifestyle costs include either paying off local criminals,
or paying your taxes. Coming up with a good reason? That's roleplaying.
The IRS aren't interested in where you get the money as long as you pay
your taxes. (others, of course, may enquire more closely...)


--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 268
From: Valerie A Olson <volson@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 18:34:03 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 28 May 1996, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> In message <Pine.HPP.3.91.960527163639.22122F-100000@********>, Valerie
> A Olson <volson@********.ca> writes
> > The life style can be high without living in in Belleview! You could
> >spend your money to fix up the inside of an abandoned warehouse to be
> >like a mansion if thats what you desire! But ask yourself, if you have
> >that kind of money, why the hell are you risking your arse shadowrunning?
>
> Because you're addicted to the adrenalin?
>
> Because you like not taking a corporate paycheck, yet still having
> plenty of cash?
>
> Because you can't see any other gainful employment that you'd enjoy?
>
> Because you used to be a corporate security bozo, got tired of sitting
> at +5 alert for weeks on end and taking shit from the suits, and figure
> the risks are worth it?

Paul,I think you missed my point, I'm talking about people who've bought
permanent high lifestyles, or even moderate ones, you are now set for
life, why risk it? if theyare a true adrenalin junkie they probably won't
last very long as a runner, always pushing the edge of the envelope,
looking for a new thrill.
>
> >You can't honestly believe that a runner could just blow into town and
> >buy a million dollar mansion, live a million dollar lifestyle, go to all
> >the "right" partys still run the shadows, and not have the irs crawl
all
> >over you? just how good is your fake SIN? how do explain your wealth?
> >"no,no, I won it all at bingo, yeah thats it bingo!"
>
> "I'm a software consultant. I'm afraid I can't disclose more details, my
> employers are rather touchy about security, but here are my financial
> records. I believe I owes this amount in taxes, which I paid upfront?
> Oh, I'm due a rebate? That's very kind of you."
>
> Part of your lifestyle costs include either paying off local criminals,
> or paying your taxes. Coming up with a good reason? That's roleplaying.
> The IRS aren't interested in where you get the money as long as you pay
> your taxes. (others, of course, may enquire more closely...)
>
Actually they are very interested in where you got it, if you can't
explain where it came from, then there might be a lot more of it that
your not prepared to tell them about! And that means more taxes.

Cheers,
The ROO-MAN,
Via his wife.
Message no. 269
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 00:04:50 +0100
In message <Pine.HPP.3.91.960528182820.17561G-100000@********>, Valerie
A Olson <volson@********.ca> writes
>> > The life style can be high without living in in Belleview! You could
>> >spend your money to fix up the inside of an abandoned warehouse to be
>> >like a mansion if thats what you desire! But ask yourself, if you have
>> >that kind of money, why the hell are you risking your arse shadowrunning?

>Paul,I think you missed my point, I'm talking about people who've bought
>permanent high lifestyles, or even moderate ones, you are now set for
>life, why risk it? if theyare a true adrenalin junkie they probably won't
>last very long as a runner, always pushing the edge of the envelope,
>looking for a new thrill.

Ever met any serious (Parachute Regiment, Royal Marines, SAS) soldiers?

There's a great line in "The Short-Timers", the novel "Full Metal
Jacket" was filmed from (author Gustav Hasford and the book's well worth
reading). "Animal Mother's a real well-adjusted guy. All he needs is
someone to throw hand grenades at him for the rest of his life."

This about a guy who had survived a long time and continued to do so.

You don't have to be fanatically looking for a new and bigger buzz, just
too hooked on what you get from ordinary runs to quit.

>> "I'm a software consultant. I'm afraid I can't disclose more details, my
>> employers are rather touchy about security, but here are my financial
>> records. I believe I owes this amount in taxes, which I paid upfront?
>> Oh, I'm due a rebate? That's very kind of you."
>>
>> Part of your lifestyle costs include either paying off local criminals,
>> or paying your taxes. Coming up with a good reason? That's roleplaying.
>> The IRS aren't interested in where you get the money as long as you pay
>> your taxes. (others, of course, may enquire more closely...)
>>
>Actually they are very interested in where you got it, if you can't
>explain where it came from, then there might be a lot more of it that
>your not prepared to tell them about! And that means more taxes.

"I'm sorry, this is a confidential matter between myself and my
employers. I will require a warrant valid for Ares, Fuchi, and Renraku
territories before I can disclose further information."

Basically, you pay a little more tax than your lifestyle suggests is
necessary, and if they want more than that they have to get a warrant
and show grounds. What are the grounds? That your known outgoings exceed
your declared income. Since you pay your taxes with a smile, they can't
touch you. Innocent until proved guilty, remember.

And you *do* pay taxes on that income. That's part of your Lifestyle
cost in my game, other GMs may insist on a seperate charge, but if they
do get into your bank account, they discover that your incomes and
outgoings are mostly certified funds, you claim some areas of outgoings
as deductible, but basically you are paying slightly more tax than you
should.

If they keep this up you claim harassment and file a lawsuit :)

There are drawbacks to posing as a legit citizen. There are, though,
some advantages.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 270
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 23:55:21 -0500 (CDT)
On Tue, 28 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >Z-O is a sitting duck for anyone with targeting data: that means major
> >nations and corporations. Nobody goes for it because those who can don't
> >have reason to, at least at the moment.
> >
> Another question that begs to be answered is "What would be the point of
> going after Z-O?" It might be the seat of corporate power, but thats all,
> the seat. It'll take out the top levels of the corps, but it's not going to
> shake the corps into breaking. Good business don't put all their eggs in
> one basket.

What the point in taking out DC? I throws them into disarray (hopefully)
and makes a which hopefully the second in command will heed (or the third
or the forth as need be).

Stephen


>
> Mike Broadwater
> "An object at rest cannot be stopped! Yeah, baby, yeah!" - The Evil
> Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight
> http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
>
>
Message no. 271
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 18:43:54 -0700
Mike Broadwater wrote:
> Thats true, yes, but I would think this would be more on the level of
> "Where do the Mossad train at?"


More like: Ok, Uri's at this address last night ... where is he in this
photo this morning ... ah there he is. Oh is that a new toy he has? One
more for the catalogs ....
Message no. 272
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 23:39:33 -0700
Mike Broadwater wrote:
> I believe the sniper in Navy Seals was supposed to be using a Barret
> Light 50 (oddly enough, very similiar to the Barret in FoF :) I always
> thought that the reason sniper rifles were illegal and hunting rifles
> weren't was because of the bore of the sniper rifle. 22 vs. 50 or
> whatever.

Actually they are -- They're just cost prohibitive, around $22.00 US per
round of FMJ Ball. Some states do restrict them others do not; Idaho,
Wyoming, & Montana do not. The distintion of being a sniper rifle under
the US laws is rea...l fuzzy. My AR-15 Sporter with a 3x scope is not,
but the same weapon with a 15x scope is; My Winchester 742BDL 30-06 with
the 15x scope is not (strange it has a higher kill ratio and a much
longer range; my ex-neighbor has a Miller-Norton .50 cal break action
with custom 30x low light scope is not - why? - it's cap and ball or pin
fire depending on the breach you insert. Yet he has dropped an elk with
it at 3700m - how's that for an antique. The laws on this topic are real
screwy.
Message no. 273
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 07:47:20 -0500
>"I'm sorry, this is a confidential matter between myself and my
>employers. I will require a warrant valid for Ares, Fuchi, and Renraku
>territories before I can disclose further information."
>
>Basically, you pay a little more tax than your lifestyle suggests is
>necessary, and if they want more than that they have to get a warrant
>and show grounds. What are the grounds? That your known outgoings exceed
>your declared income. Since you pay your taxes with a smile, they can't
>touch you. Innocent until proved guilty, remember.

Thats presuming that the IRS decides not to investigate. Just paying your
taxes isn't enough, it's paying the right amount of taxes for what you make,
and the IRS doesn't always take you at your word. They can't arrest you,
but they can also audit you. If you're SIN says you're a UCAS citizen, then
you're going to have to give up information on your income with just one
warrant, they don't need several. Al Capone never went to prison for
smuggling, he went for tax evasion. It's probably not a good idea to try to
bullshit your way past the IRS. Any gm who lets a player a). is to damn
nice or b) doesn't know shit about how the IRS works.

OTOH, if the player is smart, they don't spend more legally than they can
carefully declare making legally, they pay the correct amount of taxes at
the right times, and the checks are sent in from the right people (this is
why it can be good for runners to set up a small business when they start to
make it big. They can have their social security, medicare, etc.
drekcetera, taken care of by the business, and then have a perfect cover.)
If you just tell the IRS that "hey, you have to get those records yourself."
they'll just say "I'm sorry. We already have records that show that you
spent this much, but only made this much. We'll be pressing charges.
You'll be informed of your court date."

Mike Broadwater
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! Yeah, baby, yeah!" - The Evil
Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
Message no. 274
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:17:03 +0200
At 19:55 Uhr 28.05.96, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>In message <199605281709.NAA29215@*****.itribe.net>, Mike Broadwater
><mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com> writes
>>>Z-O is a sitting duck for anyone with targeting data [snip]

>>Another question that begs to be answered is "What would be the point of
>>going after Z-O?" It might be the seat of corporate power, but thats all,
>>the seat. It'll take out the top levels of the corps, but it's not going to
>>shake the corps into breaking. Good business don't put all their eggs in
>>one basket.

>True, but it's also the home of the people who ordered the THOR-shots
>dropped on your major city, and that might have a deterrent effect on
>them. Give the order, die sucking vacuum. Brings a very personal meaning
>to MAD...

I think you are wrong here. Z-O has representatives of the major Corps
aboard, not the major shareholder/owner/whatever. So by destroying the
satelite, you kill some high-ranking execs without leaving the Corp
headless. But for sure it will be mad (they will have to train a new
representative, at least).
And without Z-O, there's noone who has a firm grip (well... maybe not that
firm, but grip anyhow) on the large Corps, and all rules are off.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 275
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.com>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 00:04:56 -0500 (CDT)
On Wed, 29 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> OTOH, if the player is smart, they don't spend more legally than they can
> carefully declare making legally, they pay the correct amount of taxes at
> the right times, and the checks are sent in from the right people (this is
> why it can be good for runners to set up a small business when they start to
> make it big. They can have their social security, medicare, etc.
> drekcetera, taken care of by the business, and then have a perfect cover.)

Which brings up an interesting point has any one out there ever had there
players come up with the idea of turning and shadowrun team into a
legally liscensed "security contractor" and get all that nice
para-military grade equipment legally. Just be sure you have a really
good lawyer...

Stephen

>
> Mike Broadwater
> "An object at rest cannot be stopped! Yeah, baby, yeah!" - The Evil
> Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight
> http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
>
>
Message no. 276
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 17:06:49 +0100
In message <Pine.3.89.9605300010.C15269-0100000@****.bga.com>, Stephen
Delear <shadow@***.com> writes
>Which brings up an interesting point has any one out there ever had there
>players come up with the idea of turning and shadowrun team into a
>legally liscensed "security contractor" and get all that nice
>para-military grade equipment legally. Just be sure you have a really
>good lawyer...

One of my PCs retired, and now runs a mercenary battalion. Rather
interesting (for boring pedants like me) coming up with halfway
reasonable numbers for equipment and costs, to create an economical yet
effective fighting force. Then working out what it would be used for,
how it would make money...

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 277
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Killing in Shadowrun...
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 15:39:53 -0700 (PDT)
<snip, shadow-earnings and taxes>

> Which brings up an interesting point has any one out there ever had there
> players come up with the idea of turning and shadowrun team into a
> legally liscensed "security contractor" and get all that nice
> para-military grade equipment legally. Just be sure you have a really
> good lawyer...

Been there, done that :) Yup... one of my chars was a 'security
expert'... <Hist>- He recieved most of his training from Ares/KE, and in
2050, he 'left the company to enter the freelance security market'... aka
Shadowrunning. Anyway, after a couple of years of 'running, (and shaping
up his team) he managed to get a legit security license (that was a
series of 'runs in itself). He did do alot of legit security work with his
team, short-term protection stuff mostly. He had alot of the para-legal
gizmos too... sentry-guns, security armor, and lots of other toys.
(more)- He 'ran for several years (50-57) and has now 'retired' from the
shadow. He now does ONLY legitimate security work.. some of it is with
Ares/KE...(shit! I'm rambling again) Anyway, it is possible to get the
sec. license for the nifty security toys... you just gotta be careful :)

---Tom---

Further Reading

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