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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Wed Nov 28 13:45:01 2001
Well I don't go after my pleyers and they don't die normally. Still, I
believe that if you let them always survive, there is no chalenge. So I
normally only kill them if they do something very wrong (killed all of them
last week because they all attacked an Azzie instalation thru the front
door, not very inteligent by their part). Still, I believe that playters
have lots of time before a normal character really dies, in which they can
use a stablizing unit or so.
Anyway, I don't like killing players, and story is always above any dice
roll. If a result doesn't fit what you whanted, just throw again or decide
by yourself. :)
Just my 0,2 nuyens.

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim



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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (pete filipe)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Wed Nov 28 20:05:01 2001
I think its important to stress that believing
character's can be killed doesn't mean that they
*have* to be killed. It also doesn't mean that dice
determine everything. In my game, character death is a
distinct possibility, but it's never happened, and the
only time dice are used is when the players try to use
a skill. The overwhelming majority of the game is
roleplaying and problem-solving.

Character death, IMHO, should be a monumental
occurrence, like the death of a major character in a
film - think Obi-wan Kenobi, or Spock. Karma puts PCs
way above their opposition most of the time. Still,
anyone can be killed if things go wrong. I'm lucky
that I don't have players that act like idiots and
need GM help to keep them alive. Quite the opposite,
it's often difficult to create a sufficient challenge
for them. Nevertheless, if the situation plays out in
such a way that a character dies, so be it. It has
almost happened on several occasions, and avoiding
near-certain death is when the players have been most
creative. The risk of character death (or sometimes,
something worse than death) is what keeps the spark in
the game.

Just my two nuyen.

Pete
player, GM, and general SR addict.

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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Thu Nov 29 06:00:01 2001
According to pete filipe, on Thu, 29 Nov 2001 the word on the street was...

> Character death, IMHO, should be a monumental
> occurrence, like the death of a major character in a
> film - think Obi-wan Kenobi, or Spock. Karma puts PCs
> way above their opposition most of the time.

That's where my view differs. The PCs in Shadowrun games I GM might be
experienced, well-trained, and what have you, but they're not heroes. They
will die (almost) as easily, and for only slightly better reasons than
their opposition will, if they make mistakes. Just because they have
Karma[1] doesn't make them special. However, Karma will help them survive
simply because of the Karma Pool it provides (and which I often miss in
other games when I roll poorly :)

[1] IMHO, every character in the SR world has Karma, because everyone
follows the same rules.

--
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (pete filipe)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Thu Nov 29 07:55:00 2001
--- Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to pete filipe, on Thu, 29 Nov 2001 the
> word on the street was...
>
> > Character death, IMHO, should be a monumental
> > occurrence,

> That's where my view differs.
> [1] IMHO, every character in the SR world has Karma,
> because everyone
> follows the same rules.

While everyone may have karma, few will have as much
as a well played character, giving them a distinct
advantage. and as far as killing a PC being
monumental, what I meant by that was that killing a
*PC8 should be a monumental occurrence. Not
necessarily difficult, especially early on in the
character's career, but memorable (the player will
certainly remember you offed his character). Even if
the character's death meant nothing to the world at
large, it should mean something to the team. I will
kill character's, but not just cuz I felt like it. I
think the story demands something bigger.

Pete
player, GM, and general SR addict

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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Thu Nov 29 13:10:04 2001
According to pete filipe, on Thu, 29 Nov 2001 the word on the street was...

> I will kill character's, but not just cuz I felt like it. I
> think the story demands something bigger.

The way I see it, there are basically three reasons a GM can kill a
character:

1) For story purposes
2) Because the character did something that realistically results in death
3) Just because he/she can

Number 3 doesn't seem a particularly good reason to me, and any worthwhile
GM wouldn't go that low IMHO. You seem to be the kind of GM who only goes
in for #1, whereas just about all the characters who've died while I was
GMing did so for reason #2 -- standing in the path of a BF shotgun blast,
for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"I know you're expecting me to take that as good news," Randy says.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (pete filipe)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Thu Nov 29 13:40:01 2001
--- Gurth <Gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to pete filipe, on Thu, 29 Nov 2001 the
> word on the street was...
>
> > I will kill character's, but not just cuz I felt
> like it. I
> > think the story demands something bigger.
>
> The way I see it, there are basically three reasons
> a GM can kill a
> character:
>
> 1) For story purposes
> 2) Because the character did something that
> realistically results in death
> 3) Just because he/she can
>
> Number 3 doesn't seem a particularly good reason to
> me, and any worthwhile
> GM wouldn't go that low IMHO. You seem to be the
> kind of GM who only goes
> in for #1, whereas just about all the characters
> who've died while I was
> GMing did so for reason #2 -- standing in the path
> of a BF shotgun blast,
> for example.

Well, actually I would kill off a character according
to rule #2, but my players just don't get into a
situation like that very often. They're very cautious,
and careful planners. They work together to save their
hoops, and have never let a fallen runner die through
lack of attention. When someone goes down, they are
very good at getting to them quickly and keeping them
alive. Coincidentally, the only players who would have
predictably died according to rule #2 have moved away
and aren't part of our group anymore.

In a very recent run (second to last, and just before
this thread got started), three of the six character's
got dropped. One wasn't actually dead, but pinned down
and close enough to Deadly that he decided sticking
his head up again was not wise. The other two went
into overflow, and one was one phase from The Great
Magical Library In The Sky before he was finally
stabilized. The third ended up losing his arm. The
follow up run, I think only one character (maybe two)
took any wounds at all, and Light wounds at that.

My point is, yes I often stick to what the story calls
for, but that doesn't mean characters won't die if
they get into something over their heads. So far,
they've managed to keep their heads up (and their
sticks on the ice - they must have been listening to
Coach's Corner, or Red Green).

Now, if players decide to take each other out, that's
something else entirely ...

Pete
player, GM, and general SR addict

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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Thu Nov 29 16:05:01 2001
> [1] IMHO, every character in the SR world has Karma, because everyone
> follows the same rules.
>

Most of my main "villains" are converted spare characters I keep lying
around I just pump into them anywhere between 20-50 karma depending on how
difficult I want them to be. Hence they have reflecting karma pools they can
use :)
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Thu Nov 29 16:10:01 2001
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>

> The way I see it, there are basically three reasons a GM can kill a
> character:
>
> 1) For story purposes
> 2) Because the character did something that realistically results in death
> 3) Just because he/she can

You forgot the last one:
4) Because something happened that should never result in death, but did acordig
to the rules.

Which is the one I object to. #3 is just plain stupidity, and said GM will run
out of players sooner or later. #4 is irritating, and the GM should use their
common sense.

A (bad) example would be:
The GM has used all evening getting the runners hooked on a world saving
mission. On of the PC's wants to check something out with his street shaman
friend, and heads off towards his "home". PC walks down the alley, for mood the
GM describes the rat running across the alley, PC decides to kick rat, but
fumbles, next thing the rat bites the PC, and because of a few lucky/unlucky
rolls of the dice, the PC never returns.

Is it realistic? Is it possible? Is it memorable? Is it fun?

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Thu Nov 29 18:00:01 2001
I was following this thread and I would like to say my
opinion. In my time i have killed 5-6 players but
every one of them had it coming (you don't just walk
into the warlord's tent, say that you wiped out one of
his squads, GIVE HIM EVIDENCE THAT YOU DID IT and walk
out again!!!. I say that although we have to help the
players occasionaly to make a better story, we
shouldn't be afraid to kill one of them when they make
the stupidest thing of the millenia!!They want to have
the big rewards then they should take the heat as
well.The next character that they'll make will be most
cautious and they'll play him better.A player's death
is sometimes a lesson and I think you all know what I
mean ;)
And on the subject of the heroic death, I have to
point out that MOST of the time the character are the
scum of the earth, that kill, steal and generally
destroy lives. I don't see a lot of heroism in this
(and that's the way I like it)!!


====-It didn't look so big in paper!!!!
-Ideas grow,Shiro.Sometimes bigger than life!

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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Thu Nov 29 20:05:01 2001
>From: "Lars Wagner Hansen" <l-hansen@*****.tele.dk>

>From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>
>
> > The way I see it, there are basically three reasons a GM can kill a
> > character:
> >
> > 1) For story purposes
> > 2) Because the character did something that realistically results in
>death
> > 3) Just because he/she can
>
#4 is irritating, and the GM should use their
>common sense.
>
>A (bad) example would be:
>The GM has used all evening getting the runners hooked on a world saving
>mission. On of the PC's wants to check something out with his street shaman
>friend, and heads off towards his "home". PC walks down the alley, for mood
>the
>GM describes the rat running across the alley, PC decides to kick rat, but
>fumbles, next thing the rat bites the PC, and because of a few
>lucky/unlucky
>rolls of the dice, the PC never returns.
>
>Is it realistic? Is it possible? Is it memorable? Is it fun?

I think the sheer unlikeliness of it would make it both memorable and
interesting. Maybe not 'fun' for the player who lost a character, but some
(OK, one) of my players would definitely get a kick out of it. There is a
story on the net (maybe in Clue, I don't remember) of a mage rolling 20+
dice for a fireball, and fumbling. That kind of improbability deserves to be
commemorated in a big way, IMO.

If a rat did manage to take down a PC, then I would probably have a passerby
save the character before they actually died. Then they would owe that
person big time, and you'd get a plot hook out of it. You could also decide
what the deal was with the rats in that part of town. It might not be the
story you were planning, but you could still make a story out of it.

But the one I never do, is #1. If the players and the GM agree and they are
all happy to play that kind of game, fine, but my players never want to lose
a character and the only way to be fair about it is to use dice.


Jane


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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Mon Dec 3 05:35:00 2001
Lars Wagner Hansen writes:

> You forgot the last one:
> 4) Because something happened that should never result in death, but did
> acordig to the rules.
>
> <Snip rat example>
>
> Is it realistic? Is it possible? Is it memorable? Is it fun?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Now the last one depends upon the style of the game, now,
doesn't it?

Admittedly, while I think that it is _unlikey_ that a person could be killed
by a (devil) rat, I do not think that it is impossible. If, as you say, they
fumbled in their Unarmed Combat kick attempt, fell, took falling damage,
knocked themselves out, and then unfortunately had the rat bite their
jugular, then they would possibly die. Not very likely, given all the
fumbles, critical failures, and statistically unlikely rolls required for
both the rat and the character, but still possible. OTOH, if the character
didn't actually _die_ from such a thing, it'd probably be four "yes's",
don't you think?

"Say, Johnny, you remember the time a rat nearly cacked your sorry arse?"
<Johhny, who now has a severe phobia of rats, pales to a ghostlike shade.>
"Er, y-y-yeah?"
"Well, our fixer wants us to go on a sewar hunt next weekend. Are you up for
it <snigger>?"

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Kesh)
Subject: Killing players (was Re: Dragons)
Date: Mon Dec 3 12:00:04 2001
On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:34:41 +1100, Damion Milliken wrote:

>> Is it realistic? Is it possible? Is it memorable? Is it fun?
>
>Yes. Yes. Yes. Now the last one depends upon the style of the game, now,
>doesn't it?

True. I think a lot of it depends on whether or not you're playing an
heroic character. If you're playing a hero, you want them to die an
heroic death, not because they plugged their deck into a power outlet
instead of a dataline. People tend to get upset when the hero dies
without meaning, but if you're playing a group of mercenaries or just
plain street thugs out for a joyride it's more expected that silly things
will get them killed.

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