Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Simon Nixon a_9365@*******.com
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:29:04 BST
Was having a browse through Steven Kensons web page and came across the
parts that got cut from MITS- specifically the adept power Knack, at
http://members.aol.com/talonmail/mitsmisc.html

Before introducing it into our game, just wondering if anyone had tried it
in any of their games and what they though about it. Mainly, how, if at all,
destabilising it was or might be. We're running a fairly low power game at
the moment.

Cheers.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 2
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:38:29 GMT
>From: "Simon Nixon" <a_9365@*******.com>
>Was having a browse through Steven Kensons web page and came across the
>parts that got cut from MITS- specifically the adept power Knack, at
>http://members.aol.com/talonmail/mitsmisc.html
>
>Before introducing it into our game, just wondering if anyone had tried it
>in any of their games and what they though about it. Mainly, how, if at
>all,
>destabilising it was or might be. We're running a fairly low power game at
>the moment.

I haven't tried it, but I would certainly either up the points cost or make
the adepts resist some drain; say the adept learns heal at force 6 and gave
it the personalmodification from MITS. From the rules for formula costs,
I'm guessing that variable spells are treated as having a drain code of D,
-3 levels is L, that's a cost of 1.5 power points to heal up to 6 boxes of
damage with no drain!

Phil

That's it; get out of my castle!
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 3
From: Brian Johnson expatrie@*******.net
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 12:58:25 -0500
Phil Smith wrote:

> >From: "Simon Nixon" <a_9365@*******.com>
> >Was having a browse through Steven Kensons web page and came across the
> >parts that got cut from MITS- specifically the adept power Knack, at
> >http://members.aol.com/talonmail/mitsmisc.html
> >
> >Before introducing it into our game, just wondering if anyone had tried it
> >in any of their games and what they though about it. Mainly, how, if at
> >all,
> >destabilising it was or might be. We're running a fairly low power game at
> >the moment.
>
> I haven't tried it, but I would certainly either up the points cost or make
> the adepts resist some drain; say the adept learns heal at force 6 and gave
> it the personalmodification from MITS. From the rules for formula costs,
> I'm guessing that variable spells are treated as having a drain code of D,
> -3 levels is L, that's a cost of 1.5 power points to heal up to 6 boxes of
> damage with no drain!
>
> Phil
>

Wait. Why not let the adept learn the spell at whatever drain level, then pick
the force. The heal spell requires the drain level to heal the same level of
drain (i.e. serious drain cures serious wounds). Whatever drain level taken
determines the worst wound they can heal (i.e. moderate) and the force
indicates the maximum (x 1/2?) boxes they can heal. Thus, taking a healing
knack is quite expensive (1.5 points for moderate at force 6, and you can heal
a max of 3 boxes)? You'd have to learn it a deadly drain to heal a deadly wound
(which would be a waste, since you're dead or ko'd), the only levels most
players would take is serious or moderate (since light is fixed using first
aid). Sure, healing spells would seem to be the most powerful, but then you
just have to overload the adept to take them down.




____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________
Download Now http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Request a CDROM 1-800-333-3633
___________________________________________________________
Message no. 4
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:19:13 -0400
On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 14:29:04 BST "Simon Nixon" <a_9365@*******.com>
writes:
> Before introducing it into our game, just wondering if anyone had
> tried it
> in any of their games and what they though about it. Mainly, how, if
> at all,
> destabilising it was or might be. We're running a fairly low power
> game at
> the moment.

I've allowed it in my games, two different adepts, one took stealth the
other fashion.
The fashion knack is no trouble, but I didn't ike the stealth without
drain. I think it's something you need to allow on a case by case basis.
Since its a "house rule" that's easier.


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 5
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:24:06 GMT
>From: Brian Johnson <expatrie@*******.net>
>Wait. Why not let the adept learn the spell at whatever drain level, then
>pick
>the force. The heal spell requires the drain level to heal the same level
>of
>drain (i.e. serious drain cures serious wounds). Whatever drain level taken
>determines the worst wound they can heal (i.e. moderate) and the force
>indicates the maximum (x 1/2?) boxes they can heal. Thus, taking a healing
>knack is quite expensive (1.5 points for moderate at force 6, and you can
>heal
>a max of 3 boxes)? You'd have to learn it a deadly drain to heal a deadly
>wound
>(which would be a waste, since you're dead or ko'd), the only levels most
>players would take is serious or moderate (since light is fixed using first
>aid). Sure, healing spells would seem to be the most powerful, but then you
>just have to overload the adept to take them down.

What you're describing existed in SR1 and can be converted quite easily;
juts apply a -1 power for restricted target and you can only heal someone
with that wound level.

On the Knack power again, would the adept have to learn socery to cast the
spell or could they roll essence to cast it (like most critter powers)? I
would be inclined to make them roll the level they have the power at
personally. Can it be dispelled?

Phil

That's it; get out of my castle!
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 6
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 12:58:41 -0500
From: Simon Nixon
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 9:29 AM

> Was having a browse through Steven Kensons web page and came
> across the parts that got cut from MITS- specifically the adept
> power Knack, at http://members.aol.com/talonmail/mitsmisc.html

There's some neat stuff there on his site in general; I especially like the
wraiths. In regards to that specific article, the metamagical dreaming
power also rocks (at least from a GM's perspective, when used in NPCs to
give player characters problems).

> Before introducing it into our game, just wondering if anyone had
> tried it in any of their games and what they though about it.
> Mainly, how, if at all, destabilising it was or might be. We're
> running a fairly low power game at the moment.

None of my players has chosen it as a power, but a couple of NPCs have it
and it works fairly well. For a low-power game, I'd be careful about what
spells I allowed the player to take as Knacks, but otherwise, it doesn't
look that bad to me. (This is a perceptual issue, by the way; one of my
players, in a campaign he GMs, doesn't allow this power at all, since he
*does* think it's unbalancing. YMMV, as always.)

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
http://communities.msn.com/ShadowrunDataHaven/
Message no. 7
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:08:46 -0500
From: Phil Smith
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 12:38 PM

> I haven't tried it, but I would certainly either up the points
> cost or make the adepts resist some drain...

This isn't really necessary, Phil. The power doesn't allow any kind of pool
dice when casting the "spell" that he's taken as a Knack, meaning he only
has those X number of dice to roll. And for many of the more useful spells,
the Drain code is high enough that the thing gets pretty expensive pretty
quickly, especiialy for variable-drain spells (which I'd rule have to be
taken at Deadly for purposes of buying the Knack).

> ... say the adept learns heal at force 6 and gave
> it the personal modification from MITS.

Here's one problem you're creating for yourself: The power description
specifically states that the Personal modifier doesn't apply (though
Voluntary Subject might).

> From the rules for formula costs, I'm guessing that variable
> spells are treated as having a drain code of D, -3 levels is L,
> that's a cost of 1.5 power points to heal up to 6 boxes of
> damage with no drain!

Except it wouldn't be a Drain code of L, it would be a Drain code of D,
which would cost him out the wazoo to get his Level 6 Knack (he couldn't
start with it, that's for certain); most players aren't going to part with
12 power points to do that, when there are so many other neat powers out
there that might be more useful to him over all. Powers like Mystic Blade,
also in the same article, which looks eminently nifty.

Steve, did I interpret that correctly?

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
http://communities.msn.com/ShadowrunDataHaven/
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:18:52 -0500
From: vocenoctum@****.com
Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 9:19 PM

> I've allowed it in my games, two different adepts, one took stealth
> the other fashion.

Seems reasonable.

> The fashion knack is no trouble, but I didn't ike the stealth without
> drain.

Maybe I'm munchy this morning, maybe it's a lack of caffeine, maybe it's
just me being the devil's advocate, or maybe I just haven't regained as much
consciousness as I thought I had, but I don't see a problem here. The level
of the Knack is still going to be the max number of successes he can
achieve, since Knack doesn't allow pool dice of any kind (except Karma pool,
under normal Karma pool rules), and will also be the TN for any resistance
tests against the stealthy character. Since it's sustained, he's going to
be having a +2 modifier to all his actions for sustaining the "spell."

Unless that's the place he's channeling all his power points, he's not going
to have this at a very high level, I wouldn't think, so again, I don't see a
major problem.

> I think it's something you need to allow on a case by case basis.
> Since its a "house rule" that's easier.

On this, we're definitely agreed.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
http://communities.msn.com/ShadowrunDataHaven/
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:28:56 -0500
From: Phil Smith
Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2000 5:24 AM

> On the Knack power again, would the adept have to learn socery
> to cast the spell or could they roll essence to cast it (like
> most critter powers)? I would be inclined to make them roll the
> level they have the power at personally. Can it be dispelled?

You'll want to go read the whole power description again, Phil, since it
answers most of your questions. <g> However, to answer them here for more
convenience:

They don't have to learn Sorcery. It's an innate ability, much like a
Critter power. They roll a number of dice equal to their Knack level, and
have no pools to draw on in order to bolster this number of dice. I don't
know if it can be dispelled; I think it depends on a GM call.

--
Patrick E. Goodman
remo@***.net
"I'm going to tell you something cool." -- Gene Wolfe
http://communities.msn.com/ShadowrunDataHaven/
Message no. 10
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:48:56 EDT
In a message dated 7/9/00 3:01:04 PM, shadowrn-admin@*********.com writes:
>> I haven't tried it, but I would certainly either up the points
>> cost or make the adepts resist some drain...
>
>This isn't really necessary, Phil. The power doesn't allow any kind of pool
>dice when casting the "spell" that he's taken as a Knack, meaning he only
>has those X number of dice to roll. And for many of the more useful spells,
>the Drain code is high enough that the thing gets pretty expensive pretty
>quickly, especiialy for variable-drain spells (which I'd rule have to be
>taken at Deadly for purposes of buying the Knack).
>
>> ... say the adept learns heal at force 6 and gave
>> it the personal modification from MITS.
>
>Here's one problem you're creating for yourself: The power description
>specifically states that the Personal modifier doesn't apply (though
>Voluntary Subject might).
>
>> From the rules for formula costs, I'm guessing that variable
>> spells are treated as having a drain code of D, -3 levels is L,
>> that's a cost of 1.5 power points to heal up to 6 boxes of
>> damage with no drain!
>
>Except it wouldn't be a Drain code of L, it would be a Drain code of D,
>which would cost him out the wazoo to get his Level 6 Knack (he couldn't
>start with it, that's for certain); most players aren't going to part with
>12 power points to do that, when there are so many other neat powers out
>there that might be more useful to him over all. Powers like Mystic Blade,
>also in the same article, which looks eminently nifty.
>
>Steve, did I interpret that correctly?

I'd say so, yes. Keep in mind that Knack wasn't included in MitS for a
reason, that being that the DLOH decided it was too far-reaching and thus
potentially unbalancing. It was too much work to go through every single
spell and consider its implications as a Knack. Thus, its a power that
requires careful GM control. If there's a spell you feel shouldn't be taken
as a knack, you can disallow it. After all, it's not like the power itself is
official.

As to variable Drain spells (like Heal/Treat), I'd suggest that the adept
choose the maximum desired effect when the Knack power is purchased. Thus you
could have Heal (Moderate) 4, which costs (4 x 0.5) or 2 point points, and
can only Heal 3 boxes of damage, or Heal (Deadly) 10, which costs (10 x 2) a
whopping 20 power points! Since the adept only rolls dice equal to the
Knack's rating (not Sorcery skill or Spell Pool applies), a healing knack
cannot possibly heal more boxes than it has dice, so that total healing knack
is REALLY going to cost you (plus the adept has to have a Magic rating of at
least 10 to even use the knack).

By the same token a Manabolt knack would have its maximum damage determined
when it was purchased, so a Deadly Manabolt is going to cost a lot more than
a Moderate one.

As Patrick pointed out, the Personal Spell and Voluntary Subject modifiers
are already addessed in the article.

One other modifier I considered was tacking on an additional cost for Drain
Power modifiers, say 0.25 Power Points per +1 modifier. So a +2M spell taken
as a rating 4 Knack would cost (4 x 0.5) 2 points for the Drain Code and (2 x
0.25) 0.5 points for the Drain Power, for a total cost of 2.5 Power Points (a
fairly hefty amount).

And, FWIW, I'd allow Sustained Knacks to be dispelled and defended against
normally, with Force equal to the Knack's rating, just like the Critter Power
Innate Spell.

Hope that helps,

Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 11
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:44:13 -0400
On Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:28:56 -0500 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
writes:
> They don't have to learn Sorcery. It's an innate ability, much like
> a
> Critter power. They roll a number of dice equal to their Knack
> level, and
> have no pools to draw on in order to bolster this number of dice. I
> don't
> know if it can be dispelled; I think it depends on a GM call.

It seems to say that the level of the knack is the dice used in Example
1, but it doesn't say it in the actual description. I've always had the
adepts learn the sorcery (usually specializing of course) Am I simply
missing something?


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 12
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 21:08:23 GMT
>From: "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
> > I haven't tried it, but I would certainly either up the points
> > cost or make the adepts resist some drain...
>
>This isn't really necessary, Phil. The power doesn't allow any kind of
>pool
>dice when casting the "spell" that he's taken as a Knack, meaning he only
>has those X number of dice to roll. And for many of the more useful
>spells,
>the Drain code is high enough that the thing gets pretty expensive pretty
>quickly, especiialy for variable-drain spells (which I'd rule have to be
>taken at Deadly for purposes of buying the Knack).

There are ways of dragging down drain levels, especially if you have a
pretty gullable GM. But I can see where you're coming from.

> > ... say the adept learns heal at force 6 and gave
> > it the personal modification from MITS.
>
>Here's one problem you're creating for yourself: The power description
>specifically states that the Personal modifier doesn't apply (though
>Voluntary Subject might).

My fault, I should have read the power description again before replying.

Phil

That's it; get out of my castle!
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 13
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 17:08:13 -0400
On Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:44:13 -0400 vocenoctum@****.com writes:
> On Sun, 9 Jul 2000 13:28:56 -0500 "Patrick Goodman" <remo@***.net>
> writes:
> > They don't have to learn Sorcery. It's an innate ability, much
> like
> > a
> > Critter power. They roll a number of dice equal to their Knack
> > level, and
> > have no pools to draw on in order to bolster this number of dice.
> I
> > don't
> > know if it can be dispelled; I think it depends on a GM call.
>
> It seems to say that the level of the knack is the dice used in
> Example
> 1, but it doesn't say it in the actual description. I've always had
> the
> adepts learn the sorcery (usually specializing of course) Am I
> simply
> missing something?

Mind you, Steve Kenson just said that the level is used as the dice
rolled, so now I know that for sure is what he intended :-)


Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 14
From: Brian Johnson expatrie@*******.net
Subject: Knack Question
Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 19:27:22 -0500
Phil Smith wrote:

> >From: Brian Johnson <expatrie@*******.net>
> >Wait. Why not let the adept learn the spell at whatever drain level, then
> >pick
> >the force. The heal spell requires the drain level to heal the same level
> >of
> >drain (i.e. serious drain cures serious wounds). Whatever drain level taken
> >determines the worst wound they can heal (i.e. moderate) and the force
> >indicates the maximum (x 1/2?) boxes they can heal. Thus, taking a healing
> >knack is quite expensive (1.5 points for moderate at force 6, and you can
> >heal
> >a max of 3 boxes)? You'd have to learn it a deadly drain to heal a deadly
> >wound
> >(which would be a waste, since you're dead or ko'd), the only levels most
> >players would take is serious or moderate (since light is fixed using first
> >aid). Sure, healing spells would seem to be the most powerful, but then you
> >just have to overload the adept to take them down.
>
> What you're describing existed in SR1 and can be converted quite easily;
> juts apply a -1 power for restricted target and you can only heal someone
> with that wound level.
>

[ot] sr1 spells worked on lower damages as well.

No. I was saying that you had to specify the knack's maximum effect (which
determines its drain level). (Moderate) heal fixes light wounds, but can't work
on Serious. Just as specified in Sr3, you can't case moderate drain to fix
serious wounds.
But it has the same end result. I would not allow some "quirk" to reduce the
drain code like that.


>
> On the Knack power again, would the adept have to learn socery to cast the
> spell or could they roll essence to cast it (like most critter powers)? I
> would be inclined to make them roll the level they have the power at
> personally. Can it be dispelled?
>

Well, the mechanics were clear on the site. Roll the force of the spell for
effect. No other dice. Yes it has to be sustained (as all healing spells), yes
it causes +2 distraction, yes it can be dispelled / attacked in astral, etc.




_______________________________________________
Why pay for something you could get for free?
NetZero provides FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Knack Question, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!