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From:	Hahns Shin Hahns_Shin@*******.com
Subject:	Knights Templar [OT]
Date:	Sat, 15 Jul 2000 12:55:29 -0500

Message no. 1 > > In most cases you would be correct, but the wealth of the Templars was
not
> > based on land and title, but rather cold hard cash.
>
> Medieval history isn't my strongest point, but AFAIK back then you got
> cold, hard cash because you had land. I did some reading on knightly
> orders about a year ago when it looked like our group was going to play
> some Vampire: The Dark Ages, mainly because my character was a (former)
> Hospitaler, and the main book I read (I can't remember the author or the
> title, but it was published by some English university press -- as if that
> helps in tracking it down :) went to some length to explain how the orders
> became so wealthy; IIRC land was the major factor in it. They also lost a
> lot of that money unnecessarily because they weren't very good
> bookkeepers, though...
>From what I know, the Knights Templar were not the usual Knights, as in the
land-owning feudal lords. They were more like a banker/mercenary/secret
society, depending on which Crusade or time period you're talking about.
Early in the Crusades, they were more like church "ordained" mercenaries,
started by a handful of French warriors designated to protect pilgrims (Our
modern day Red Cross takes its symbol from the early Templar cross). During
one period of time, they were infamous for "laundering" heathen gold,
charging hefty fees for the secure transport of bullion. As they gained
more members (numbering in the tens of thousands), more lords and kings
would "donate" land and other properties to the service of the Templars.
They were declared heretics (I think for usury and witchcraft for their
unusual initiation rites, among other things) sometime after the Crusades
and lived in secrecy afterwards. It is speculated that after the fall of
Acre to Muslims sometime in the late 13th century, the Church no longer saw
a need for the Templars and saw them as a threat, thus bringing them into
persecution. The Hospitalers and the Templars had a fierce rivalry, despite
all efforts to merge the two organizations by the Catholic Church.

I see your argument on "Land=Power" but the Templars' power mostly came from
the ability to effectively transport and store gold, because no matter where
you were in Eastern Europe, there was likely to be a local Templar "branch
office" nearby. It helps to be officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church,
too.

Here's the Britannica Reference, though it's not entirely accurate according
to my sources(my best friend is an Anthropology and Human Studies major w/ a
minor in Medieval History and Lit.).
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,73501+1+71638,00.html

Hahns

From:	Bushyduck Bushyduck@**********.com
Subject:	Knights Templar [OT]
Date:	Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:33:32 -0400

Message no. 2 > -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
>
> Here's the Britannica Reference, though it's not entirely
> accurate according
> to my sources(my best friend is an Anthropology and Human Studies
> major w/ a
> minor in Medieval History and Lit.).
> http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,73501+1+71638,00.html
>
> Hahns
>

If anybody's interested I can recommend a few books on the templars, Just
email me and I'll send them to you. (Just give me a couple of days to
respond.)

Bushyduck, The Divine Messenger of Kawaii Weirdness

From:	Douglas Browne dejaffa@*********.net
Subject:	Knights Templar [OT]
Date:	Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:04:08 -0400

Message no. 3 > > > In most cases you would be correct, but the wealth of the Templars was
> not
> > > based on land and title, but rather cold hard cash.
> >
> > Medieval history isn't my strongest point, but AFAIK back then you got
> > cold, hard cash because you had land.
...
<De-lurk>

Not necessarily in this case. The Templars were bankers (deposit money
in the treasury at the Templar refectory in Germany, withdraw money in
Jerusalem, or vice-versa, when traveling, or simply borrow money), in
addition to being, particularly early in their history, one of the most
effective armies of their time. Yes, they had lots of land, and, since it
wasn't being split up by inheritances, it kept getting bigger, but more of
their money was actually real cash.

> Early in the Crusades, they were more like church "ordained" mercenaries,
> started by a handful of French warriors designated to protect pilgrims.

True. They were formed by a group of French knights and took their name (The
Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon) from the Mount of the Temple of
Solomon, where their initial HQ was. This location is now a highly
controversial mosque in Jerusalem.

<tangent>
>(Our modern day Red Cross takes its symbol from the early Templar cross).

Not correct. The modern Red Cross takes its symbol from a color reversal of
the Swiss flag. The ideals of that organization at its origins came, to a
large degree, from Christian religion and the modern (17th+ century) Swiss
traditions of neutrality. Sorry. The Red Cross-Templar connection is an
urban legend.
</tangent>

>During one period of time, they were infamous for "laundering" heathen
gold,
> charging hefty fees for the secure transport of bullion. As they gained
> more members (numbering in the tens of thousands), more lords and kings
> would "donate" land and other properties to the service of the Templars.

Correct. They could not charge interest for banking, since usury was not
only a sin, but a crime for Christians, so they charged transport fees,
among other fees.

> They were declared heretics (I think for usury and witchcraft for their
> unusual initiation rites, among other things) sometime after the Crusades
> and lived in secrecy afterwards.

1307-1314. The charges included usury, witchcraft, heresy, and sodomy.
One of the largest real reasons was that King Phillip IV of France at the
time owed them beau-coup money and couldn't (or didn't want to) pay. Pope
Clement V didn't protect them, as he could have, for a number of reasons,
many of them having to do with Church politics and their being a little too
... independent of the Vatican for his tastes.
The idea that some Templars survived the Inquisition (no, I am not using
that word lightly, I am using it in its exact historical meaning) has always
been controversial. Most professional historians would love to see it
documented as other than verbal tradition. Yes, I am familiar with the
claims of the various Masonic orders to be the Templars -- there is no
historical documentation for that with which I am familiar, and, I'm
willing to say, none with which the historical profession is familar. So,
in your game, if it matters, feel free to have surviving Templars, but don't
believe it as historical fact without documentation.

> It is speculated that after the fall of
> Acre to Muslims sometime in the late 13th century, the Church no longer
saw
> a need for the Templars and saw them as a threat, thus bringing them into
> persecution. The Hospitalers and the Templars had a fierce rivalry,
despite
> all efforts to merge the two organizations by the Catholic Church.
>
That is one reason, but, like I said, the King of France, who brought
the charges, did so because he owed them money.

> I see your argument on "Land=Power" but the Templars' power mostly came
from
> the ability to effectively transport and store gold, because no matter
where
> you were in Eastern Europe, there was likely to be a local Templar "branch
> office" nearby.

Refectory, or temple. Yes.

>It helps to be officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church, too.
You've got THAT right.

> Here's the Britannica Reference, though it's not entirely accurate
according
> to my sources(my best friend is an Anthropology and Human Studies major w/
a
> minor in Medieval History and Lit.).
> http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,73501+1+71638,00.html

A few better references than the encyclopedia:
The Trial of the Templars by Malcolm Barber (ISBN #0521457270)
The New Knighthood : A History of the Order of the Temple by Malcolm Barber
(ISBN #0521558727)
Rule of the Templars : The French Text of the Rule of the Order of Knights
Templar by J. M. Upton-Ward (ISBN #0851157017, in English despite the title)
The Knights Templar and Their Myth by Peter Partner (ISBN #0892812737)
and, the classic Sir Steven Runciman's A History of the Crusades (ISBN
052135997X, among others).

Avoid Holy Blood, Holy Grail and the like as historical documentation, but
they make entertaining reading and might, depending on your tastes, make
campaign preparation material. :-)

<lurk>

Tee-Hee
aka Mr. Douglas Browne, MA Medieval European History

From:	Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject:	Knights Templar [OT]
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:47:01 +1000

Message no. 4 -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Browne <dejaffa@*********.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: Knights Templar [OT]

> The idea that some Templars survived the Inquisition (no, I am not
using
>that word lightly, I am using it in its exact historical meaning) has
always
>been controversial. Most professional historians would love to see it
>documented as other than verbal tradition. Yes, I am familiar with the
>claims of the various Masonic orders to be the Templars -- there is no
>historical documentation for that with which I am familiar, and, I'm
>willing to say, none with which the historical profession is familar. So,
>in your game, if it matters, feel free to have surviving Templars, but
don't
>believe it as historical fact without documentation.
>
I agree here, the facts are weighed against the group's survival into modern
times, no matter how romantic the notion is. Mind you, Orks never existed at
all, and nobody will dispute that, so this should in no way affect their
presence or linear history in Shadowrun.

From:	Douglas Browne dejaffa@*********.net
Subject:	Knights Templar [OT]
Date:	Tue, 18 Jul 2000 08:39:19 -0400

Message no. 5 Sorry about that, folks. I was cleaning my history degree, and it went off.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Browne" <dejaffa@*********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Knights Templar [OT]

> > > > In most cases you would be correct, but the wealth of the Templars
was
> > not
> > > > based on land and title, but rather cold hard cash.
> > >
> > > Medieval history isn't my strongest point, but AFAIK back then you got
> > > cold, hard cash because you had land.
> ...
> <De-lurk>
>
> Not necessarily in this case. The Templars were bankers (deposit
money
> in the treasury at the Templar refectory in Germany, withdraw money in
> Jerusalem, or vice-versa, when traveling, or simply borrow money), in
> addition to being, particularly early in their history, one of the most
> effective armies of their time. Yes, they had lots of land, and, since it
> wasn't being split up by inheritances, it kept getting bigger, but more of
> their money was actually real cash.
>
> > Early in the Crusades, they were more like church "ordained"
mercenaries,
> > started by a handful of French warriors designated to protect pilgrims.
>
> True. They were formed by a group of French knights and took their name
(The
> Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon) from the Mount of the Temple of
> Solomon, where their initial HQ was. This location is now a highly
> controversial mosque in Jerusalem.
>
> <tangent>
> >(Our modern day Red Cross takes its symbol from the early Templar cross).
>
> Not correct. The modern Red Cross takes its symbol from a color reversal
of
> the Swiss flag. The ideals of that organization at its origins came, to a
> large degree, from Christian religion and the modern (17th+ century) Swiss
> traditions of neutrality. Sorry. The Red Cross-Templar connection is an
> urban legend.
> </tangent>
>
> >During one period of time, they were infamous for "laundering" heathen
> gold,
> > charging hefty fees for the secure transport of bullion. As they gained
> > more members (numbering in the tens of thousands), more lords and kings
> > would "donate" land and other properties to the service of the
Templars.
>
> Correct. They could not charge interest for banking, since usury was not
> only a sin, but a crime for Christians, so they charged transport fees,
> among other fees.
>
> > They were declared heretics (I think for usury and witchcraft for their
> > unusual initiation rites, among other things) sometime after the
Crusades
> > and lived in secrecy afterwards.
>
> 1307-1314. The charges included usury, witchcraft, heresy, and sodomy.
> One of the largest real reasons was that King Phillip IV of France at the
> time owed them beau-coup money and couldn't (or didn't want to) pay. Pope
> Clement V didn't protect them, as he could have, for a number of reasons,
> many of them having to do with Church politics and their being a little
too
> ... independent of the Vatican for his tastes.
> The idea that some Templars survived the Inquisition (no, I am not
using
> that word lightly, I am using it in its exact historical meaning) has
always
> been controversial. Most professional historians would love to see it
> documented as other than verbal tradition. Yes, I am familiar with the
> claims of the various Masonic orders to be the Templars -- there is no
> historical documentation for that with which I am familiar, and, I'm
> willing to say, none with which the historical profession is familar. So,
> in your game, if it matters, feel free to have surviving Templars, but
don't
> believe it as historical fact without documentation.
>
> > It is speculated that after the fall of
> > Acre to Muslims sometime in the late 13th century, the Church no longer
> saw
> > a need for the Templars and saw them as a threat, thus bringing them
into
> > persecution. The Hospitalers and the Templars had a fierce rivalry,
> despite
> > all efforts to merge the two organizations by the Catholic Church.
> >
> That is one reason, but, like I said, the King of France, who brought
> the charges, did so because he owed them money.
>
> > I see your argument on "Land=Power" but the Templars' power mostly
came
> from
> > the ability to effectively transport and store gold, because no matter
> where
> > you were in Eastern Europe, there was likely to be a local Templar
"branch
> > office" nearby.
>
> Refectory, or temple. Yes.
>
> >It helps to be officially sanctioned by the Catholic Church, too.
> You've got THAT right.
>
> > Here's the Britannica Reference, though it's not entirely accurate
> according
> > to my sources(my best friend is an Anthropology and Human Studies major
w/
> a
> > minor in Medieval History and Lit.).
> > http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,73501+1+71638,00.html
>
> A few better references than the encyclopedia:
> The Trial of the Templars by Malcolm Barber (ISBN #0521457270)
> The New Knighthood : A History of the Order of the Temple by Malcolm
Barber
> (ISBN #0521558727)
> Rule of the Templars : The French Text of the Rule of the Order of Knights
> Templar by J. M. Upton-Ward (ISBN #0851157017, in English despite the
title)
> The Knights Templar and Their Myth by Peter Partner (ISBN #0892812737)
> and, the classic Sir Steven Runciman's A History of the Crusades (ISBN
> 052135997X, among others).
>
> Avoid Holy Blood, Holy Grail and the like as historical documentation, but
> they make entertaining reading and might, depending on your tastes, make
> campaign preparation material. :-)
>
> <lurk>
>
> Tee-Hee
> aka Mr. Douglas Browne, MA Medieval European History
>
>
>
>
>

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