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Message no. 1
From: Jan-bart van Beek <flake@***.NL>
Subject: Knocked down
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 19:31:41 +0200
OK, wait a moment, you guys.

When I first posted the article on new knockdown rules, I never
suggested thst people should actually start flying a multiple number of
meters when they get hit by a slug.
I wondered what granetes did to you, when you get hit.
I wondered if people would FALL down if they got hit by a slug.

The grenate thing, I don't know about, but I am VERY VERY sure, that if I
got hit by a grenate at ground-zero even if I was wearing a full-body
protection and got away unscratched, that I would most definetly fall down.
Someone mentioned something about 5 inches, well lift me up 5 inches
while scaring the hell out of me by detonating a grenate right under my
feet, and,hell,yes,I would probably not land properly on my feet again.

The bullet thing, well same thing but a little different. Fire a slug
into me and I will NOT remain standing. I am very sure of that. I will
not fly out of windows by the sheer impact of the tiny piece of lead, but
I most probably will fall over. It's a matter of balance, bracing and luck.

The rules I posted yesterday worked fine last night.
There was a guy standing on top of a wall. He was wearing a heavy
Secu-Armour 7/4. One of the player fired a uzi at him. The bullets of
coarse didn't even penetrate his armour. The attacker hit with 3
successes above deadly. I had him make a dodge test (I used the Threat
rating, that's 3 dice) against the minimum target number (2). The man on
top of the wall scored three successes. That meant he would get hit by a
deadly hit. Ofcourse he took no damage (Standard bullet of 6 vs 7
hardened armour), but he did get those bullet on his chest plate.
I then continued to throw his body+threat against a 5D (Burstfire from
uzi(9) minus impact armour(4) = 5) attack. He got only 3 successes, he
ofcourse needed 4 to remain standing (standard knock-back rules), and
therefore lost his balance and fell off the wall.
Allthough the guy, did not get hurt by the bullets themself or the
knock-back, in the end he got hurt because he fell of a two meter wall.
He got a L wound.

And it all took only about 1 minute of game-time, and three dice roles.
No one really minded the dice roles though, they thought it rather
amusing to see a man fall of a two meter wall and manage to get himself hurt.
Officially one should also check if the guy can get back on his feet.
Thus willpower vs 5 (4 plus a light wound).

--------------------------------------------------------------
| Beware of what you ask for you may recieve it |
--------------------------------------------------------------

**** The Cornflake Killer Strikes again ****
Message no. 2
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Knocked down
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:22:50 -0400
>>>>> "Jan-bart" == Jan-bart van Beek <flake@***.NL>
writes:

Jan-bart> I wondered what granetes did to you, when you get hit.

Not much. And that's ``grenade''.

Jan-bart> I wondered if people would FALL down if they got hit by a slug.

That's about exactly what happens. Usually what happens is that they either
die or succumb to systemic shock; in either case, the result is that they
collapse in a heap, or windmill about for a moment or three and then
collapse in a heap.

[...]

Jan-bart> The bullet thing, well same thing but a little different. Fire a
Jan-bart> slug into me and I will NOT remain standing. I am very sure of
Jan-bart> that. I will not fly out of windows by the sheer impact of the
Jan-bart> tiny piece of lead, but I most probably will fall over. It's a
Jan-bart> matter of balance, bracing and luck.

Dig out some of the footage of guys testing mil-spec body armor. In one
example, a 7.62mm rifle is fired at a guy wearing heavy body armor from
less than 6 feet. He didn't fall over; he hardly moved. Of course, I will
admit the guy *was* leaning into it, but still, if a bullet has as much
energy as you seem to think, it wouldn't matter. Well, that's not the case.
``Knockback'' in the real world is 95% systemic shock. You can argue
against that until you're blue in the face, but the fact remains that
knockback simply does not happen, and there's reams of evidence, both from
the physics and observational, to support that statement.

[...]

Jan-bart> And it all took only about 1 minute of game-time, [...]

To me, that's a minute that could have been spent doing something else.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball has been shipped to our
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.
Message no. 3
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Knocked down
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 17:23:50 -0400
You guys know, if you want a more realistic system, you could play
Cyberpunk. Personally I will stick with the Massively Unrealistic, yet
HIGHLY cinematic 5ft+ knockback for really impressive shots.


Matt 'Comatose Raspberry' Hufstetler
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt2778a
Internet: gt2778a@*****.gatech.edu
Message no. 4
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Knocked down
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 19:29:16 -0400
>>>>> "Matt" == Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
writes:

Matt> You guys know, if you want a more realistic system, you could play
Matt> Cyberpunk.

Hardly. Try Phoenix Command or CORPS.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | unknown glowing substance which fell to
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | Earth, presumably from outer space.
Message no. 5
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Knocked down
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:24:03 -0400
Rat Writes:
> >>>>> "Matt" == Matt Hufstetler
<gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU> writes:
>
> Matt> You guys know, if you want a more realistic system, you could play
> Matt> Cyberpunk.
>
> Hardly. Try Phoenix Command or CORPS.

I was just saying, that for a more realisic game, play Cyberpunk. If you
want to play a simulation of real life, then there are many games which
will fit the bill. Personally, I play games to forget about reality for a
little bit, and find out what it is like to live in a cinamatic world.



Matt 'Comatose Raspberry' Hufstetler
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt2778a
Internet: gt2778a@*****.gatech.edu
Message no. 6
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Knocked down
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 10:17:29 -0400
>>>>> "Matt" == Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
writes:

Matt> I was just saying, that for a more realisic game, play Cyberpunk.

And I was just saying that, in general, CP2020 is *less* realistic than
Shadowrun. With the exception that armor technology in Shadowrun has
outstripped weapons tech (which is an historically unfounded premise) fire
combat in SR2 is damn close to Real Life(tm).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | accelerate to dangerous speeds.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 7
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Knocked down
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 01:13:46 GMT
> Jan-bart> The bullet thing, well same thing but a little different. Fire a
> Jan-bart> slug into me and I will NOT remain standing. I am very sure of
> Jan-bart> that. I will not fly out of windows by the sheer impact of the
> Jan-bart> tiny piece of lead, but I most probably will fall over. It's a
> Jan-bart> matter of balance, bracing and luck.
>
> Dig out some of the footage of guys testing mil-spec body armor. In one
> example, a 7.62mm rifle is fired at a guy wearing heavy body armor from
> less than 6 feet. He didn't fall over; he hardly moved. Of course, I will
> admit the guy *was* leaning into it, but still, if a bullet has as much
> energy as you seem to think, it wouldn't matter.

I've seen footage of someone having a cannonball fired into his stomach
and staying on his feet, because he was braced and ready. On the other hand
Houdini died because he used to do the "stomach of steel" and someone
punched him in the gut when he *wasn't* expecting it. Boxers trade punches
that would flatten you or I, or each other if they weren't braced for them.

The point is a bullet applies a substantial force vector to you, often
high in your body. If someone throws a medicine ball at you and you miss
your catch, it won't usually knock you down because you're ready for it:
if one hits you unexpectedly you sprawl on the floor. The human frame can
compensate for a lot of loadings, but needs time and warning.

> knockback simply does not happen, and there's reams of evidence, both from
> the physics and observational, to support that statement.

Unfortunately the physics is out and the observations I've heard tend to be
along the lines of "you'll know if you hit him" (Sgt-Major Dixon). Dixie
was telling us about firing from ambush and someone asked when to switch fire
- if someone fell down when you fired, did that mean you'd hit? Dixie replied
that someone *hit* with a 7.62mm went arse-over-tip like a cartwheel, while
on a miss they just flop into cover. Since he was decorated for a night's
festivities on Mount Longdon in 1982, he could be expected to know. The
physics are another matter and I explain those elsewhere.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better or
for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Knocked down, you may also be interested in:

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