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Message no. 1
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 10:41:30 -0400
What languages has SR been printed in? Somewhere in a Deep Resonance
forum, there was a discussion which contained an idea to make a
Shadowrun anime film. Personally, I think this would be cool, but it
brought up the question, has Shadowrun been published in Japanese? in
Chinese? Its easier for companies to print editions in other languages
like German and French, etc, because they're all left-to-right, top to
bottom, formatted. Japanese and others are top to bottom,
right-to-left. Wouldn't that cause a whole format redesign to have to
be done so that things flow right?

Anyway, I guess this is slightly OT, too, but I'm really curious now.

Wildfire
Message no. 2
From: Scott Harrison Scott_Harrison@*****.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 17:09:41 +0200
In a message from Wildfire <Wildfire@*************.com>
dated Thu, 07 Oct 1999 10:41:30 -0400, my mailer made me see:

-> What languages has SR been printed in? Somewhere in a Deep Resonance
-> forum, there was a discussion which contained an idea to make a
-> Shadowrun anime film. Personally, I think this would be cool, but it
-> brought up the question, has Shadowrun been published in Japanese? in
-> Chinese? Its easier for companies to print editions in other languages
-> like German and French, etc, because they're all left-to-right, top to
-> bottom, formatted. Japanese and others are top to bottom,
-> right-to-left. Wouldn't that cause a whole format redesign to have to
-> be done so that things flow right?
->
-> Anyway, I guess this is slightly OT, too, but I'm really curious now.
->
-> Wildfire
->
->

I do not know the list of languages. However, I have the basic rules (SR2) in Czech. I
am attempting to find a place to get the French version. I thought about ordering the
German SR3 rules from the web but decided to put it off for a while as I really don't want
to pursue German in the near future. If no one does in the next few years I might attempt
an Esperanto version myself.

For printing, no matter what language one uses, layout changes are a distinct possibility.
The number of words typically changes and the amount of space they take up changes.
Therefore, layout nightmares can ensue. If one has a real document publishing program
this is not a major problem as long as the document was laid out properly to begin with.
All that the localization experts have to do is take the template and pump in the
translations. And the magic of the program/template takes over where things flow and are
attached to the proper illustrations, etc.

Now the major question is whether the publishing software can handle the various ways text
is processed throughout the world. Assuming one gets a Unicode capable package, one is
starting with the right base. Whether the text layout engine handles bi-directional text,
vertical text, ligatures, etc. is another question.

Personally, I think the hardest part of the equation is getting the right people to
translate the books. How does one translate "chummer?" A linguist like Tolkein
would analyze where the word was derived and determine the appropriate derivation in the
target language. Someone else might leave it as chummer.

--Scott
Message no. 3
From: Wildfire Wildfire@*************.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:21:47 -0400
Scott Harrison wrote:

> In a message from Wildfire <Wildfire@*************.com>
> dated Thu, 07 Oct 1999 10:41:30 -0400, my mailer made me see:
>
> -> What languages has SR been printed in? Somewhere in a Deep Resonance
> -> forum, there was a discussion which contained an idea to make a
> -> Shadowrun anime film. Personally, I think this would be cool, but it
> -> brought up the question, has Shadowrun been published in Japanese? in
> -> Chinese? Its easier for companies to print editions in other languages
> -> like German and French, etc, because they're all left-to-right, top to
> -> bottom, formatted. Japanese and others are top to bottom,
> -> right-to-left. Wouldn't that cause a whole format redesign to have to
> -> be done so that things flow right?
> ->
> -> Anyway, I guess this is slightly OT, too, but I'm really curious now.
> ->
> -> Wildfire
> ->
> ->
>
> I do not know the list of languages. However, I have the basic rules (SR2) in Czech.
I am attempting to find a place to get the French version. I thought about ordering the
German SR3 rules from the web but decided to put it off for a while as I really don't want
to pursue German in the near future. If no one does in the next few years I might attempt
an Esperanto version myself.
>
> For printing, no matter what language one uses, layout changes are a distinct
possibility. The number of words typically changes and the amount of space they take up
changes. Therefore, layout nightmares can ensue. If one has a real document publishing
program this is not a major problem as long as the document was laid out properly to begin
with. All that the localization experts have to do is take the template and pump in the
translations. And the magic of the program/template takes over where things flow and are
attached to the proper illustrations, etc.
>
> Now the major question is whether the publishing software can handle the various ways
text is processed throughout the world. Assuming one gets a Unicode capable package, one
is starting with the right base. Whether the text layout engine handles bi-directional
text, vertical text, ligatures, etc. is another question.
>
> Personally, I think the hardest part of the equation is getting the right people to
translate the books. How does one translate "chummer?" A linguist like Tolkein
would analyze where the word was derived and determine the appropriate derivation in the
target language. Someone else might leave it as chummer.
>
> --Scott

Hmm. True, the main agurment of the anime debate sub vs. dub revolves around how the
original script is translated. Would be neat to have SR rules in Japanese, though I don't
know if they could get a translator who could do it right

*shudders at the thought of "chummer" being translated to "dachinko" *

Wildfire
Message no. 4
From: Paolo Marcucci pmarcucci@******.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:31:46 -0700
I know of english (duh!), japanese, french, german, italian, hungarian. I'm
not sure about spanish, tho.

-Paolo

-----Original Message-----
From: Wildfire <Wildfire@*************.com>
To: 'shadowrn@*********.org' <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 7:44 AM
Subject: Language Question


>What languages has SR been printed in? Somewhere in a Deep Resonance
>forum, there was a discussion which contained an idea to make a
>Shadowrun anime film. Personally, I think this would be cool, but it
>brought up the question, has Shadowrun been published in Japanese? in
>Chinese? Its easier for companies to print editions in other languages
>like German and French, etc, because they're all left-to-right, top to
>bottom, formatted. Japanese and others are top to bottom,
>right-to-left. Wouldn't that cause a whole format redesign to have to
>be done so that things flow right?
>
>Anyway, I guess this is slightly OT, too, but I'm really curious now.
>
>Wildfire
>
>
Message no. 5
From: Kevin Langevin kevinl@******.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:04:18 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wildfire [mailto:Wildfire@*************.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 10:42 AM
> To: 'shadowrn@*********.org'
> Subject: Language Question
>
>
> What languages has SR been printed in? Somewhere in a Deep Resonance
> forum, there was a discussion which contained an idea to make a
> Shadowrun anime film. Personally, I think this would be cool, but it
> brought up the question, has Shadowrun been published in Japanese? in
> Chinese? Its easier for companies to print editions in other
> languages
> like German and French, etc, because they're all left-to-right, top to
> bottom, formatted. Japanese and others are top to bottom,
> right-to-left. Wouldn't that cause a whole format redesign to have to
> be done so that things flow right?
>
> Anyway, I guess this is slightly OT, too, but I'm really curious now.
>
> Wildfire
>
>

I know for a fact that it's been published in Japanese, because a friend of
mine was in Japan, and got into a PBeM game I was in, and she had Japanese
versions. (She speaks and reads it).

-Kev
Message no. 6
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Language Question
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:27:17 -0400 (EDT)
Kevin Langevin <kevinl@******.com> writes:
> I know for a fact that it's been published in Japanese, because a friend of
> mine was in Japan, and got into a PBeM game I was in, and she had Japanese
> versions. (She speaks and reads it).

I know that the Japanese version has a little section in it on
the state of Japan in 205x (206x?). Does anyone know if that section
is considered canon to the background?

Mark
Message no. 7
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: Language Question
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:51:50 -0500
spanish too.

Ahuizotl

Paolo Marcucci escribió:
>
> I know of english (duh!), japanese, french, german, italian, hungarian. I'm
> not sure about spanish, tho.
>
> -Paolo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wildfire <Wildfire@*************.com>
> To: 'shadowrn@*********.org' <shadowrn@*********.org>
> Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 7:44 AM
> Subject: Language Question
>
> >What languages has SR been printed in? Somewhere in a Deep Resonance
> >forum, there was a discussion which contained an idea to make a
...
> >right-to-left. Wouldn't that cause a whole format redesign to have to
> >be done so that things flow right?
> >
> >Anyway, I guess this is slightly OT, too, but I'm really curious now.
> >
> >Wildfire
> >
> >
Message no. 8
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Language Question
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:32:18 +0200
According to Wildfire, at 10:41 on 7 Oct 99, the word on
the street was...

> What languages has SR been printed in?

IIRC, German, French, Spanish (these three I know for sure -- see
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/shadowrun/non-english.html), Polish,
Hungarian, and Japanese.

> Somewhere in a Deep Resonance forum, there was a discussion which
> contained an idea to make a Shadowrun anime film. Personally, I think
> this would be cool, but it brought up the question, has Shadowrun been
> published in Japanese? in Chinese? Its easier for companies to print
> editions in other languages like German and French, etc, because they're
> all left-to-right, top to bottom, formatted. Japanese and others are
> top to bottom, right-to-left. Wouldn't that cause a whole format
> redesign to have to be done so that things flow right?

Well, you could move the images correspondingly. For example, if a piece
of art is in the lower right-hand corner of a page you could move it to
upper left if the text goes from right to left and bottom to top instead
of the other way around. However, this image movement would also be very
dependent on how much space the actual text takes up, which may be a lot
more or less depending on the kinds of characters used.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I would have it all if I'd only have this much
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Language Question
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:32:18 +0200
According to Mark A Shieh, at 13:27 on 7 Oct 99, the word on
the street was...

> I know that the Japanese version has a little section in it on
> the state of Japan in 205x (206x?). Does anyone know if that section
> is considered canon to the background?

AFAIK, no. The only "official" SR background is what's published by FASA.
Although it does appear that FASA may intend to publish a book based on
material written by their foreign licensees, what will actually be in it
is anyone's guess, given Mike's appreciation (used ironically, for those
who don't know about his views) of much of the non-FASA material.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I would have it all if I'd only have this much
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Gorbi gbmaill@***.de
Subject: Language Question
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:31:21 +0200
Gurth wrote:
>> I know that the Japanese version has a little section in it on
>> the state of Japan in 205x (206x?). Does anyone know if that section
>> is considered canon to the background?
>
> AFAIK, no. The only "official" SR background is what's published by FASA.
> Although it does appear that FASA may intend to publish a book based on
> material written by their foreign licensees, what will actually be in it
> is anyone's guess, given Mike's appreciation (used ironically, for those
> who don't know about his views) of much of the non-FASA material.

Oh, now I'm curious. Can you explain that?

Gorbi
Message no. 11
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:59:25 -0700
On Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:31:21 +0200 "Gorbi" <gbmaill@***.de> writes:
> Gurth wrote:
<SNIP>
> > AFAIK, no. The only "official" SR background is what's published by
FASA.
> > Although it does appear that FASA may intend to publish a book based
on
> > material written by their foreign licensees, what will actually be in
it
> > is anyone's guess, given Mike's appreciation (used ironically, for
those
> > who don't know about his views) of much of the non-FASA material.

> Oh, now I'm curious. Can you explain that?

As I understand it, what happens is FASA gives some company the license
to make <insert language here> version of SR. That company normally
prints some country specific material (ie, the Germany Sourcebooks
printed in German, the France Sourcebook in French, the Japan section in
the Japanese BBB, etc). This material, even though it's printed for
Shadowrun and I think has FASA's "stamp of approval", is NOT canon.
However, what FASA does, is when theyfinally decide to make a product
that would cover the same areas, they look at what the license holders
wrote and try to use as much as possible and fit it into FASA's view of
things. (This sometimes means de-munchafying the material ;)

Now, FASA is working on a product (Titled?) that will cover many of the
areas covered by books published by license holding companies only in
non-english languages. Therefore, FASA will be culling the material
printed by these companies for usable material to toss into this book.

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 12
From: Tony Rabiola argent1@****.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:27:28 -0500
> > I know that the Japanese version has a little section in it on
> > the state of Japan in 205x (206x?). Does anyone know if that section
> > is considered canon to the background?
>
> AFAIK, no. The only "official" SR background is what's published by FASA.
> Although it does appear that FASA may intend to publish a book based on
> material written by their foreign licensees, what will actually be in it
> is anyone's guess, given Mike's appreciation (used ironically, for those
> who don't know about his views) of much of the non-FASA material.
>

Anyone know if this translation is available anywhere?

Argent
Message no. 13
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Language Question
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:48:50 +0200
According to Gorbi, at 15:31 on 8 Oct 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Although it does appear that FASA may intend to publish a book based on
> > material written by their foreign licensees, what will actually be in it
> > is anyone's guess, given Mike's appreciation (used ironically, for those
> > who don't know about his views) of much of the non-FASA material.
>
> Oh, now I'm curious. Can you explain that?

Mike Mulvihill has been known to make comments about books like Shadowrun
France (the French-language sourcebook on France in SR) and IIRC some
German books, which indicated he felt they were rather munchkinous. I
don't remember the specifics, though, so don't take the above as canon :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I would have it all if I'd only have this much
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:08:35 EDT
In a message dated 10/8/1999 8:31:13 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gbmaill@***.de writes:

> Gurth wrote:

(...in my opinion more than he should have tried)

> > AFAIK, no. The only "official" SR background is what's published by
FASA.
> > Although it does appear that FASA may intend to publish a book based on
> > material written by their foreign licensees, what will actually be in it
> > is anyone's guess, given Mike's appreciation (used ironically, for those
> > who don't know about his views) of much of the non-FASA material.
>
> Oh, now I'm curious. Can you explain that?

Its' simply this, AISI Mike M. is simply a guy with his own opinions of how
things would work out better. And, like any other opinion collection, they
are not going to be commonly shared opinions at many points in time.

I do recall hearing some of Mikes' statements about "Foreign Material" (my
term, not his) in the past, and again IMO, I think the statements are simply
just that. Statements. He realizes that in order to further spur on growth
for Shadowrun (and FASA in general), the material has to be not only
presentable to "non-american" audiences, it also has to be written by
"non-american" audiences as well. Corporate Download is the most recent
example of this I can think of. Some of the Australian Shadowrun Support
(ASS for all you fun lovers!!! HI LADY J!! :-) crowd was getting in their
licks for material finally. I am also aware of other material *NOT* being
something he *personally* liked or appreciated, but it did make it to print
in some form. What material? I honestly do not recall.

He's human. Occasionally it would be nice of all the rest of us to remember
that.

-K
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Language Question
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:39:14 +0200
According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 12:08 on 8 Oct 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Gurth wrote:
>
> (...in my opinion more than he should have tried)

Didn't he make a comment about this at GenCon?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I would have it all if I'd only have this much
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 12:22:06 CST
I was wondering about languages. Does a higher ranking in one mean that
the character is simply more fluent in said language, or is it a combination
of being more fluent and being more eloquent?
Basically: With a higher rank, is the character better at speaking, or
just has more words to use?

Grim Shear
"Dammit man, I thought I told you to throw the _Grenade_
not the pin." Spoken soon after telling a _really_ stupid
(and well roleplayed Troll), to pull the pin and throw it.

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 17
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:01:39 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Grim Shear wrote:

> I was wondering about languages. Does a higher ranking in one mean that
> the character is simply more fluent in said language, or is it a combination
> of being more fluent and being more eloquent?
> Basically: With a higher rank, is the character better at speaking, or
> just has more words to use?

My take on languages is this: higher skill levels mean a variety
of things. First, your vocabulary gets larger and your pronunciation gets
better. This means that you can express yourself more clearly in any
given situation.
Second, your grasp on the structure of the language becomes more
instinctive, meaning that you can construct more complicated phrases to
convey more subtle meaning.
Third, you also are picking up a lot more idioms, expressions
that don't translate well. Things like "three sheets to the wind" and
"screwball" and "hoser." You understand more of the subtleties of
inflection. Look at how many uses of the word "fuck" there are in modern
American English and you'll see my point.
Finally, the higher your skill gets, the less you sound like a
foreigner. At some point, you will have lost your "accent" and can speak
the language like a native (note that this last step is one that's very
difficult to achieve. There are people who are fluent in foreign
languages from a technical/vocabulary perspective that still have accents
that make them very hard to understand).
In order to cut down on dice-rolling, I usually only have players
roll once for any given conversation, and translate (sometimes poorly)
what's going on based on what they understand (or fail to understand).
Sometimes this can get pretty funny.
Also keep in mind that intelligence figures into language as well.
You used to (in SR2) get a "native" language at your Int+2. As such,
someone who is smarter tends to speak the language better, not because
their pronunciation is any better but because they have a better grasp of
the complexities of the language and can remember more vocabulary. Their
level of "fluency" is more fluent than someone with a lower intelligence.
Because of this (and again, to decrease the dice-rolling) I've
ruled that if you have a language skill equal to your intelligence, you no
longer have to make language checks (yes, technically this means that
stupid people become fluent quicker, but remember that they're fluent at
the level of their intelligence. As such, native speakers will know that
they're morons). When you get to a language skill equivalent to your
Int+2, you can lose your accent (though people may still think you're a
moron, they just can't tell you're a foreign moron).

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Message no. 18
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 11:42:47 -0800 (PST)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:01:39 -0500 (EST), Marc Renouf wrote:

> Because of this (and again, to decrease the dice-rolling) I've
>ruled that if you have a language skill equal to your intelligence, you no
>longer have to make language checks (yes, technically this means that
>stupid people become fluent quicker, but remember that they're fluent at
>the level of their intelligence. As such, native speakers will know that
>they're morons). When you get to a language skill equivalent to your
>Int+2, you can lose your accent (though people may still think you're a
>moron, they just can't tell you're a foreign moron).


I see a problem with this... Agreed, it might work up to an Int of 4, maybe 5. But with
an Int of 6
that means a language skill of 8 is needed to lose the accent, or 6 to become fluent. This
is
somewhat the reverse of what I would expect to see, where the truely smart people tend to
learn
languages better. Then of course there is my cybered elf with an Int of 8... Under your
rules
needs to learn a language to skill 8 before becoming fluent? And to 10 to lose her accent?
I would
strenuously argue against such.

I would propose that you create a fixed fluency and accent scale, probably with accent
starting to
disappear at skill 6, and gone at skill 7.

- -----------------------------------------------------------
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http://www.spydernet.com/oliver/
- -----------------------------------------------------------
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Message no. 19
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:51:52 EST
In a message dated 11/3/1999 11:04:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
renouf@********.com writes:

> Because of this (and again, to decrease the dice-rolling) I've
> ruled that if you have a language skill equal to your intelligence, you no
> longer have to make language checks (yes, technically this means that
> stupid people become fluent quicker, but remember that they're fluent at
> the level of their intelligence. As such, native speakers will know that
> they're morons). When you get to a language skill equivalent to your
> Int+2, you can lose your accent (though people may still think you're a
> moron, they just can't tell you're a foreign moron).
>
> Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

I like that house rule, Mark. One question (WHich probobly doesnt apply
during most games) If someone has their language at int+2, then raises their
Int score, do they regain their 'accent'?

--
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Message no. 20
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:05:14 -0500
Marc Renouf wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Grim Shear wrote:
>
> > I was wondering about languages. Does a higher ranking in one mean that
> > the character is simply more fluent in said language, or is it a combination
> > of being more fluent and being more eloquent?
> > Basically: With a higher rank, is the character better at speaking, or
> > just has more words to use?
>
> My take on languages is this: higher skill levels mean a variety
> of things. First, your vocabulary gets larger and your pronunciation gets
> better. This means that you can express yourself more clearly in any
> given situation.
> Second, your grasp on the structure of the language becomes more
> instinctive, meaning that you can construct more complicated phrases to
> convey more subtle meaning.
> Third, you also are picking up a lot more idioms, expressions
> that don't translate well. Things like "three sheets to the wind" and
> "screwball" and "hoser." You understand more of the subtleties
of
> inflection. Look at how many uses of the word "fuck" there are in modern
> American English and you'll see my point.
> Finally, the higher your skill gets, the less you sound like a
> foreigner. At some point, you will have lost your "accent" and can speak
> the language like a native (note that this last step is one that's very
> difficult to achieve. There are people who are fluent in foreign
> languages from a technical/vocabulary perspective that still have accents
> that make them very hard to understand).
>

So would this mean that all of us speak our native language at a 6? Or a 4? Or a
5? How do you handle that situation? And would you require them to take their
native language at that high, or do you just give it to them? What I've told my
(new) players is this:
If you have a 3 in a language, I expect that you can speak it and understand it
fluently. The only time I'll make you roll is if it is VITALLY important that you
understand, and you're the only one who speaks the language. So they all dumped 3
points into English, and then they each picked a foreign language and dumped 3
points (or more) into that one. But they all grew up in the UCAS.

>
>
> Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)
>
> Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
> Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.html.com> List Owner
> Adam Jury <adamj@*********.html.com> Assistant List Administrator
> DVixen <dvixen@****.com> Keeper of the FAQs
> Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
> David Buehrer <graht@********.att.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
> ShadowRN FAQ <http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 21
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:14:56 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 3 Nov 1999 Starrngr@***.com wrote:

> I like that house rule, Mark. One question (WHich probobly doesnt apply
> during most games) If someone has their language at int+2, then raises their
> Int score, do they regain their 'accent'?

No, I give them a freebie. It's rare, but even evil GM's
sometimes cut their players a break. :)

Marc
Message no. 22
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:27:55 CST
<snip the verbose response>
>Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

I was just wondering, because my GM let me have (this is 3rd Edition) my
native language at equal to my Intelligence, and Intelligence time 5 worth
of Knowledge skills.
My Character ended up with English, Japanese, and Sperethiel 6. I figured
in his background that he hangs out with a lot of Japanese (read:Yakuza),
who gave him his start at running, so he knows the language pretty well. And
Sperethiel seems kind of cultured to me.
The reason I asked was that when RP'ing my character, I had used the word
"abject" in a correct sentence, and everyone kind of looked at me. Its just
one of those words that doesn't come come up very often. I even use
"verbose" :)

Grim Shear
"Dammit man, I thought I told you to throw the _Grenade_
not the pin." Spoken soon after telling a _really_ stupid
(and well roleplayed Troll), to pull the pin and throw it.

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Message no. 23
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Language Question
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:17:33 -0800
At 12:22 PM 03/11/99 , Grim Shear annoyed me by writing:

> I was wondering about languages. Does a higher ranking in one mean
> that the character is simply more fluent in said language, or is it a
> combination of being more fluent and being more eloquent?
> Basically: With a higher rank, is the character better at speaking,
> or just has more words to use?

Well, the way I have looked at Linguistics in SR terms is as such:

The higher the rating in the language, the easier it is for the speaker to
get his terms across. More vocabulary, and difficult topics of discussion
become easier, or better understanding and ability to get terms across.

I always equated eloquence with Charisma, more than anything. (Plus, I know
how eloquent Second language speakers can sound with what I would equate to
a rating 2 in English. ;)

Some people have to really work at a second language, for others it is
simple as anything. I reflect this as a 1 point linguistic edge. A slightly
less modifier for language based tests. Exact opposite for the flaw.

I also equate accents with an edge/flaw. I know second language speakers
with professor level language skills, and *still* they have an accent. The
edge reflects an ability to accurately pronounce and mimic the sounds and
inflections of a given language - I've noticed some people can learn some
langagues better than others in regard to accents.

It's not exactly easy to lose an accent, and few manage to do it with out a
serious amount of effort on their parts. And on the flip, some pick up
accents without trying. I know people who moved to my area when they were
barely in their teens, and haven't lost their accent, as well as people who
moved here well into adulthood, and have barely a trace of their accent.

Or the friend of Jhary's I met in Germany, who had learned her English in
her late teens. I had to ASK her where she was from, because her accent was
nothing like the other english speaking germans from that area. She
definitely had an edge of some sort - she had a fairly decent mastery of
English - AND no trace of a german accent (in fact, her accent was quite
Queen's English)

So we get -

Linguistic ability/disability - 1 point edge/flaw. Learning languages is
more instinctive and natural (or more difficult, in the case of the flaw)
Learning still costs the normal amount, but all tests are modified by 1.
(In favour of incase of edge, opposite for flaw)

Linguistic mimicry - 1 point edge. the speaker is mroe able to mimic an
accent, either to blend his natural accent out, or to take on one of
another group of speakers. modifier of 1 towards speakers attempts to blend
in (I do allow multiple levels of this - it has little game purpose other
than esthetic - for game effects, the edge must cost double, limited to 3
levels)

I have no clue what to call the flaw version of Ling. mimicry.


--
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Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 24
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Language Question
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:46:26 +0100
According to Grim Shear, at 12:22 on 3 Nov 99, the word on the street
was...

> I was wondering about languages. Does a higher ranking in one mean that
> the character is simply more fluent in said language, or is it a combination
> of being more fluent and being more eloquent?
> Basically: With a higher rank, is the character better at speaking, or
> just has more words to use?

In the character's native language (or any others he or she has spoken
from early childhood -- immigrants are good examples here), I'd say it
means the character is better able to express him- or herself.

With non-native languages, IMHO it's a combination of the two: a higher
skill means the character knows more words, and is also better at
expressing thoughts and ideas (the two are related: if you know few words,
you can't express yourself as well because you'll be searching for the
right word much longer -- and discover you don't know it -- than when you
know more words).

--
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