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Message no. 1
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Language Questions - Again
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:32:35 +1000
Hoi again.

Does anyone know if there's a 'Sperethiel Dictionary' out there? A
compilation of all 'official' Sperethiel terms in existence or something
similar? Or is there anyone willing to venture a translation for me (I'm
looking at you, FASA)? 8-)

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 2
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:21:07 -0400
Ratinac, Rand (NSW) wrote:
>
> Does anyone know if there's a 'Sperethiel Dictionary' out there? A
> compilation of all 'official' Sperethiel terms in existence or something
> similar? Or is there anyone willing to venture a translation for me (I'm
> looking at you, FASA)? 8-)

Your best bet is to pull out an Irish Gaelic dictionary and pretend it's
Sperethiel. Tir Tairngire and Tir Na Nog are direct names from Irish
mythology, and they mean exactly what FASA says they mean in Sperethiel -- "The
Land of Promise" and "The Land of Youth."

So if Sperethiel *isn't* Gaelic, it's pretty damn close. The downside is that
any form of Gaelic is about as complicated as Sperethiel is supposed to be, so
unless you're willing to spend a disproportionate amounts of time with it
you're unlikely to get the wording exactly right. And you can just give up on
pronouncing it right. >8-> But for game purposes that doesn't matter.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 3
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:31:51 +1000
> Ratinac, Rand (NSW) wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know if there's a 'Sperethiel Dictionary' out there? A
> > compilation of all 'official' Sperethiel terms in existence or
> something
> > similar? Or is there anyone willing to venture a translation for me
> (I'm
> > looking at you, FASA)? 8-)
>
> So if Sperethiel *isn't* Gaelic, it's pretty damn close. The downside
> is that
> any form of Gaelic is about as complicated as Sperethiel is supposed
> to be, so
> unless you're willing to spend a disproportionate amounts of time with
> it
> you're unlikely to get the wording exactly right. And you can just
> give up on
> pronouncing it right. >8-> But for game purposes that doesn't
> matter.
>
> - Steve Eley
>
*Doc' makes a face* Thanks muchly, Steve. :)

I hope this isn't the best advice I'm gonna get, because I'll be damned
if I know where I can find an English/Gaelic dictionary. For some
strange reason I don't think they're exactly common. :) Any Gaelic
speakers out there?

And Steve, while the names of the nations are Gaelic, I don't think
Sperethiel itself is that closely related. Check out the small sampling
of Sperethiel in Tir Tairngire. Now I'm certainly no expert, but the
words didn't sound all that Gaelic to me. Ah well.

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 4
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:53:05 -0500
> I hope this isn't the best advice I'm gonna get, because I'll be damned
> if I know where I can find an English/Gaelic dictionary. For some
> strange reason I don't think they're exactly common. :) Any Gaelic
> speakers out there?

Nope but...

http://www.notam.uio.no/~hcholm/altlang/

(That's the fun one, but not terribly useful for your purpose). :)

http://www.kalama.com/~mariner/qserdictionary.htm

Damn, that's probably not that useful either (and ugly graphics too).

Hmm...

http://194.35.194.1/gaidhlig/ionnsachadh/

Don't ask me why I'm doing this. I think I just like internet research.
There's just something about being able to take any subject, and get at
least the beginnings of a working answer in minutes.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 5
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:54:23 -0400
Ratinac, Rand (NSW) wrote:
>
> I hope this isn't the best advice I'm gonna get, because I'll be damned
> if I know where I can find an English/Gaelic dictionary. For some
> strange reason I don't think they're exactly common. :) Any Gaelic
> speakers out there?

D'oh! You're right. A Sperethiel dictionary would obviously be *much* easier
to find. >8-> (Unless you went to Amazon.com, or your local library...)

Presumably you're doing this to prepare some in-game materials for your players
or your character, right? If so, WHO CARES if Gaelic is really Sperethiel or
not? It sounds authentically exotic, and that's probably all you need. You're
almost certainly not going to get more out of FASA; I'll bet dollars to donuts
that the one-and-a-half columns of Sperethiel in the Tir Tairngire book are all
Nigel Findley's doing, and that if he *did* create more vocabulary, FASA didn't
buy it from him (or didn't bother to keep it around.) FASA doesn't have STAR
TREK's clout to recruit professional linguists to create languages for them.


> And Steve, while the names of the nations are Gaelic, I don't think
> Sperethiel itself is that closely related. Check out the small sampling
> of Sperethiel in Tir Tairngire. Now I'm certainly no expert, but the
> words didn't sound all that Gaelic to me. Ah well.

I'm looking at it right now. Which words do you think don't resemble Gaelic?
I'd agree that "makkanagee" doesn't sound *as* Gaelic to the outside ear as,
say, "celénit," but then I'm not a student of Gaelic either. I'm simply
a
bystander who tried to offer a practical solution to an impossible request.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 6
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:05:41 +1000
> D'oh! You're right. A Sperethiel dictionary would obviously be
> *much* easier
> to find. >8-> (Unless you went to Amazon.com, or your local
> library...)
>
Hoo hoo hoo *Doc' holds his sides and jiggles*

8-)

> Presumably you're doing this to prepare some in-game materials for
> your players
> or your character, right? If so, WHO CARES if Gaelic is really
> Sperethiel or
> not? It sounds authentically exotic, and that's probably all you
> need. You're
> almost certainly not going to get more out of FASA; I'll bet dollars
> to donuts
> that the one-and-a-half columns of Sperethiel in the Tir Tairngire
> book are all
> Nigel Findley's doing, and that if he *did* create more vocabulary,
> FASA didn't
> buy it from him (or didn't bother to keep it around.) FASA doesn't
> have STAR
> TREK's clout to recruit professional linguists to create languages =
for
> them.
>
Well, I sorta care, because it's actually for a story - and I'm a
perfectionist as far as my stories go. Sorry. -1 point character flaw.
:) You probably have a point, but I thought if anyone would know if
there WAS one, without bugging FASA, it'd be you guy.

> > And Steve, while the names of the nations are Gaelic, I don't think
> > Sperethiel itself is that closely related. Check out the small
> sampling
> > of Sperethiel in Tir Tairngire. Now I'm certainly no expert, but =
the
> > words didn't sound all that Gaelic to me. Ah well.
>
> I'm looking at it right now. Which words do you think don't resemble
> Gaelic?
> I'd agree that "makkanagee" doesn't sound *as* Gaelic to the outside
> ear as,
> say, "celénit," but then I'm not a student of Gaelic either. I'm
> simply a
> bystander who tried to offer a practical solution to an impossible
> request.
>
> - Steve Eley
>
And I thank you for your effort.

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:13:27 +0200
According to Ratinac, Rand (NSW), at 9:32 on 23 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Does anyone know if there's a 'Sperethiel Dictionary' out there? A
> compilation of all 'official' Sperethiel terms in existence or something
> similar? Or is there anyone willing to venture a translation for me (I'm
> looking at you, FASA)? 8-)

The only Sperethiel word lists I know of are in the Tir Tairngire
sourcebook and Denizens of Barsaive Volume One (an Earthdawn sourcebook).
Plus there is some "spoken" Sperethiel in some other boosk, but usually
without translation. I don't think you'll get all that far with just those
references.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: 00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:46:44 -0400
At 12:13 PM 9/23/98 +0200, Gurth wrote:
>The only Sperethiel word lists I know of are in the Tir Tairngire
>sourcebook and Denizens of Barsaive Volume One (an Earthdawn sourcebook).
>Plus there is some "spoken" Sperethiel in some other boosk, but usually
>without translation. I don't think you'll get all that far with just those
>references.

Would someone be able to post or send me direct the smattering of
Sperethiel from the ED book (Denizens of Barsaive Volume One)...I sold my
book first without copying down that list...*do'h*


--00DNA
<<Replication Terminated>>
Message no. 9
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:08:05 -0400
At 09:32 AM 9/23/98 +1000, you wrote:
>Hoi again.
>
>Does anyone know if there's a 'Sperethiel Dictionary' out there? A
>compilation of all 'official' Sperethiel terms in existence or something
>similar? Or is there anyone willing to venture a translation for me (I'm
>looking at you, FASA)? 8-)
>
>Doc'

There's a short one in the "Tir Taingire" sourcebook.

Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corporation
Message no. 10
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:35:16 +0000
and thus did Ratinac, Rand (NSW) speak on 23 Sep 98 at 12:31:

> I hope this isn't the best advice I'm gonna get, because I'll be damned
> if I know where I can find an English/Gaelic dictionary. For some
> strange reason I don't think they're exactly common. :) Any Gaelic
> speakers out there?

[looks out of the window]
Yeah, I can see loads of them out there :)
I don't speak or write it, but I do have a dictionary (kinda easy to
get here :), so if you need some words or help, I might be able to do
something. I don't remember squat about those IE's babbling, plus all
my books are packed and ready to move, so you'll have to wait till
next week and send me the texts. My wife and I speak between us six
languages and know enough of three others to get by, so who knows,
one of us might find the Rosetta Stone :).

Unless one of the FASA guys just admits it's all gibberish.... :/

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 11
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:00:01 -0500
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 1998 10:38 AM

>My wife and I speak between us six languages and know enough of
>three others to get by, so who knows, one of us might find the
>Rosetta Stone :).

Martin, one of you might *be* the Rosetta Stone for all we know.... <g>

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 12
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:40:43 +1000
> At 12:13 PM 9/23/98 +0200, Gurth wrote:
> >The only Sperethiel word lists I know of are in the Tir Tairngire
> >sourcebook and Denizens of Barsaive Volume One (an Earthdawn
> sourcebook).
> >Plus there is some "spoken" Sperethiel in some other boosk, but
> usually
> >without translation. I don't think you'll get all that far with just
> those
> >references.
>
> Would someone be able to post or send me direct the smattering of
> Sperethiel from the ED book (Denizens of Barsaive Volume One)...I sold
> my
> book first without copying down that list...*do'h*
>
>
> --00DNA
>
If you get it, 00DNA, could you send it to me, too? I never had it in
the first place (I know about Earthdawn, but I concentrate on SR).

Doc'
Message no. 13
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 00:25:13 -0400
Steve--

>So if Sperethiel *isn't* Gaelic, it's pretty damn close. The
>downside is that any form of Gaelic is about as complicated as
>Sperethiel is supposed to be, so unless you're willing to spend
>a disproportionate amounts of time with it you're unlikely to
>get the wording exactly right.

More to the point, Sperethiel is closely related to
Irish Gaelic rather than, say, Scots Gaelic. Of course, in
Shadowrun terms, it might be more accurate to say that Irish
Gaelic is derived from Sperethiel... <g>

Shadowmage
Message no. 14
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:20:44 +0000
and thus did Patrick Goodman speak on 23 Sep 98 at 11:00:

> Martin, one of you might *be* the Rosetta Stone for all we know.... <g>

Hmmm, are you implying that either of us looks like a black stone
with three languages inscribed on it?... hmmm? well?
:)

Actually I have more hopes that my wife recognizes something, she
knows Russian and Hebrew (next to English and a bit French), so who
knows.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 15
From: Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 02:33:38 EDT
>>So if Sperethiel *isn't* Gaelic, it's pretty damn close. The
>>downside is that any form of Gaelic is about as complicated as
>>Sperethiel is supposed to be, so unless you're willing to spend
>>a disproportionate amounts of time with it you're unlikely to
>>get the wording exactly right.
> More to the point, Sperethiel is closely related to
>Irish Gaelic rather than, say, Scots Gaelic. Of course, in
>Shadowrun terms, it might be more accurate to say that Irish
>Gaelic is derived from Sperethiel...
Sperethiel is a language unrelated to any other language. It is related
to Gailic in the same way Japanese is related to Gailic.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 11:35:27 +0200
According to Josh Munn, at 2:33 on 27 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Sperethiel is a language unrelated to any other language. It is related
> to Gailic in the same way Japanese is related to Gailic.

Yeeeesss..... but at the same time, the "Sperethiel" word lists in FASA
books apparently bear a striking resemblance to Gaelic, I'm told. Tir
Tairngire and Tir na nOg also mean in Gaelic exactly what they're supposed
to mean according to FASA.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Nobody's going to murder anyone here even if it means I have to
kill someone!" --Kane, detective/rigger
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:44:34 -0600
While doing the Fandango, Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to Josh Munn, at 2:33 on 27 Sep 98, the word on the street was...
/
/ > Sperethiel is a language unrelated to any other language. It is related
/ > to Gailic in the same way Japanese is related to Gailic.
/
/ Yeeeesss..... but at the same time, the "Sperethiel" word lists in FASA
/ books apparently bear a striking resemblance to Gaelic, I'm told.

Due to the variation of languages, and the limits to what (meta)humans
can vocalize, FASA would be hard pressed to come up with a word list
that didn't resemble an existing language :)

/ Tir
/ Tairngire and Tir na nOg also mean in Gaelic exactly what they're supposed
/ to mean according to FASA.

Maybe the IE's have occasionally added (accidently or on purpose) or
maintained Sperethiel words and phrases in the Gaelic language. Given
the apparent similarities between the two languages no one but a
linguist would know the difference (and even then the linguist would be
hard pressed to pick out the Sperethiel words if they've been in use
long enough). Tir Tairngire and Tir na nOg might be Sperethiel phrases
that have been a part of Gaelic language for so long that nobody doubts
that they are Gaelic phrases.

It's possible that the IE's use of Sperethiel in Ireland influenced the
sound and feel of the Gaelic language (humans aspired to sound like the
"faeries").

There are many possible explanations for the similarities between
Sperethiel and Gaelic, and the use of Tir Tairngire and Tir na nOg in
the Gaelic language. Heck, it could just be coincidence.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 18
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:24:59 -0500
----------
> From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
> /
> / Yeeeesss..... but at the same time, the "Sperethiel" word lists in
FASA
> / books apparently bear a striking resemblance to Gaelic, I'm told.
>
> / Tir
> / Tairngire and Tir na nOg also mean in Gaelic exactly what they're
supposed
> / to mean according to FASA.
>
> There are many possible explanations for the similarities between
> Sperethiel and Gaelic, and the use of Tir Tairngire and Tir na nOg in
> the Gaelic language. Heck, it could just be coincidence.

Remember, Spetheriel is a really old language, so they likely didn't have
words for "nuclear power" or "internal combustion" that evolved
naturally
in the language... more than likely, the IE's have figured out the
similarities between the languages, and use Gaelic to patch Sperthiel
whenever they need to.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
I'd rather look around me compose a better song
'cos that's the honest measure of my worth.
In your pomp and all your glory you're a poorer man than me,
as you lick the boots of death born out of fear
-Jethro Tull "Wind Up"
*
"Puritanism: the haunting fear that somebody, somewhere, might be having a
good time."
--H.L. Mencken
*
ArM Code 1.2 4 R- H+ SG- G+ Y3 C-- FZ--(E) P HoH(Bj+ D+++! Ex+ F-- Ma+
Gru+) Cd
Message no. 19
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Language Questions - Again
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 09:04:34 -0600
While doing the Fandango, Nexx wrote:
/
/ ----------
/ > From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
/ > /
/ > There are many possible explanations for the similarities between
/ > Sperethiel and Gaelic, and the use of Tir Tairngire and Tir na nOg in
/ > the Gaelic language. Heck, it could just be coincidence.
/
/ Remember, Spetheriel is a really old language, so they likely didn't have
/ words for "nuclear power" or "internal combustion" that evolved
naturally
/ in the language... more than likely, the IE's have figured out the
/ similarities between the languages, and use Gaelic to patch Sperthiel
/ whenever they need to.

And Gaelic has words for "nuclear power" and "internal combustion"?
:)

AFAIK, almost all of the languages use English technical terminology.

And, given what little I know of IE ego, I would think that the IE's
would make up new words rather than clutter their language.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

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