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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 22:58:55 -0600
On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:33:16 -0800 Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
writes:
<SNIP>
>And on that line, I never found the concealability modifer for
smartlinks
>and _especially_ laser sights to be justified. I mean, for 130 bucks,
you
>can get a good laser that fits where your guide rod on a pistol is
supposed
>to be, or for even less, you can get one that's less than 1cm square
that
>attaches to the front of the trigger guard. The old monsters that used
to
>attach to the front of the frame under the slide are ancient things sold
>for 20 dollars as toys. No reason why 60 years from now they'd be
_bigger_,
>and no reason smartlinks wouldn't be pretty close in design.
<SNIP>

So are you proposing reducing the concealability modifier for Lasers &
Smartlinks by 1 or eliminating them all together?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 2
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:27:22 -0800
> So are you proposing reducing the concealability modifier for Lasers &
> Smartlinks by 1 or eliminating them all together?
>
> --
> D. Ghost

Well, I was just rambling in general, since I always shell out for the
internal versions. But it's just something that's bugged me for a long
time. I mean, originally when SR1 was released, yeah, lasers were big and
unsightly, but even when SR2 was out, they were already tiny things.
Message no. 3
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:44:28 -0600
On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:27:22 -0800 Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
writes:
>> So are you proposing reducing the concealability modifier for Lasers &
>> Smartlinks by 1 or eliminating them all together?
>>
>> --
>> D. Ghost

>Well, I was just rambling in general, since I always shell out for the
>internal versions. But it's just something that's bugged me for a long
>time. I mean, originally when SR1 was released, yeah, lasers were big
and
>unsightly, but even when SR2 was out, they were already tiny things.

That reminds me of something that has always bugged me ... if you can get
an internal smartlink, why can't you get an internal laser? The
smartlinks are chunkier and more expensive than laser sights so it should
be cheaper to install an internal laser sight than an internal smartlink,
right? How about the following (based on the lasers in FoF page 60):

Internal Laser Sights
Strength Conceal Range Weight Avail Cost St. Ind.
Standard 0 500m .1 Weapon +50% Weapon
High 0 1,500m .1 Weapon +150% Weapon
Listed range is night range. For day range, divide night range by 10.

Btw, since we were talking about the realism of firearm ranges, does
anyone know if these ranges make sense?

Lastly, has anyone thought of incorporated vision mag into smart goggles?
From the example set by incorporating lowligh and/or thermo, I'd say it
would cost about +325 for mag 1, +525 for mag 2, and +800 for mag 3.

Also, when adding features to sunglass style smart goggles, do you double
the price before or after adding the cost of the features? (I'd say
after ...)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:00:32 +0100
According to D. Ghost, at 0:44 on 3 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> Lastly, has anyone thought of incorporated vision mag into smart goggles?
> From the example set by incorporating lowligh and/or thermo, I'd say it
> would cost about +325 for mag 1, +525 for mag 2, and +800 for mag 3.

I haven't done this, but I did do it the other way around -- scopes with
smart goggles built into them. The stats are in Running Gear, available
from my web page.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Perjury does not include lying if lying is the
only sensible way to get you out of trouble.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:04:23 -0800
> That reminds me of something that has always bugged me ... if you can get
> an internal smartlink, why can't you get an internal laser? The
> smartlinks are chunkier and more expensive than laser sights so it should
> be cheaper to install an internal laser sight than an internal smartlink,
> right? How about the following (based on the lasers in FoF page 60):

I always thought there should be, but we use them anyways, simply because
there were a few guns that could come with them.

> Btw, since we were talking about the realism of firearm ranges, does
> anyone know if these ranges make sense?

Well, a good laser can go that far at night, but it goes in a perfectly
straight line. So if you _are_ shooting 500 meters, your bullet is going to
hit below where the laser points, so there should be a limit to the actual
effectiveness of the laser.
Message no. 6
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:29:30 +0100
>> Btw, since we were talking about the realism of firearm ranges, does
>> anyone know if these ranges make sense?
>
>Well, a good laser can go that far at night, but it goes in a perfectly
>straight line. So if you _are_ shooting 500 meters, your bullet is going to
>hit below where the laser points, so there should be a limit to the actual
>effectiveness of the laser.

Hm.. but the laser could include a rangefinder, and adjust accordingly.
Then it would be, ballistically, accurate at any range. (Not counting wind...
or perhaps it could do that, too.). I wouldn`t more than double the range,
though.
Message no. 7
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:39:29 -0800
> >Well, a good laser can go that far at night, but it goes in a perfectly
> >straight line. So if you _are_ shooting 500 meters, your bullet is going
to
> >hit below where the laser points, so there should be a limit to the
actual
> >effectiveness of the laser.
>
> Hm.. but the laser could include a rangefinder, and adjust accordingly.
> Then it would be, ballistically, accurate at any range. (Not counting
wind...
> or perhaps it could do that, too.). I wouldn`t more than double the
range,
> though.

Well, the laser doesn't effect the range itself, 500 meters is just how far
the laser can project. And at 500 meters, it's going to be a pale red
circle about 6 inches across, not a little dot. Yeah, a rangerfinder of
2050 tech could do that, to be sure. Not for wind compensation though,
since then it would need a way to gauge the wind all the way from you to
the target.
Well, like they teach cops, laser sights are an aid, they don't mean you
don't use your irons anymore.
Message no. 8
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:17:56 +1100
> According to D. Ghost, at 0:44 on 3 Nov 98, the word on the street
> was...
>
> > Lastly, has anyone thought of incorporated vision mag into smart
> goggles?
> > From the example set by incorporating lowligh and/or thermo, I'd
> say it
> > would cost about +325 for mag 1, +525 for mag 2, and +800 for mag 3.
>
> I haven't done this, but I did do it the other way around -- scopes
> with
> smart goggles built into them. The stats are in Running Gear,
> available
> from my web page.
> Gurth@******.nl -
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
>
Errr...you all realise that, by definition, vision mag and smartlinks
don't work together, don't you? (See vision mag in SSC II.) Of course,
if you want to SWITCH between them, that's all well and good.

Know what would be tasty? High-powered laser sight built into your scope
(for those who can't handle the cyber). Base target number 3 - for
EVERYTHING.

*Doc' considers mating a dual-phase laser array to his vision mag scope
and droooooooools...*

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:49:22 -0600
From: Ratinac, Rand (NSW) <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 5:17 PM

>Errr...you all realise that, by definition, vision mag and smartlinks
>don't work together, don't you? (See vision mag in SSC II.) Of course,
>if you want to SWITCH between them, that's all well and good.

Okay, maybe I'm just being dense, but how the heck do you figure this? I
just looked in my SSC and it didn't say anything about the two not working
together.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 10
From: Carsten Baermann <Carsten.Baermann@****.UNI-GIESSEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:18:23 +0100
On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Patrick Goodman wrote:

> >Errr...you all realise that, by definition, vision mag and smartlinks
> >don't work together, don't you? (See vision mag in SSC II.) Of course,
> >if you want to SWITCH between them, that's all well and good.
>
> Okay, maybe I'm just being dense, but how the heck do you figure this? I
> just looked in my SSC and it didn't say anything about the two not working
> together.

Its in the 2nd Edition of the SSC, not in the older one. But the rule
makes a reappereance in SR3, too. I think in the Combat Section under
Vision Magnifications.

Bye,
########### Carsten Baermann - http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gcg4 ##########
# carsten.baermann@****.uni-giessen.de - case@**********.uni-giessen.de #
########## finger gcg4@**.hrz.uni-giessen.de for PGP Public Key #########

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 11
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:34:26 -0600
On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:18:23 +0100 Carsten Baermann
<Carsten.Baermann@****.UNI-GIESSEN.DE> writes:
>On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Patrick Goodman wrote:

>> >Errr...you all realise that, by definition, vision mag and smartlinks
>> >don't work together, don't you? (See vision mag in SSC II.) Of
course,
>> >if you want to SWITCH between them, that's all well and good.

>> Okay, maybe I'm just being dense, but how the heck do you figure this?
I
>> just looked in my SSC and it didn't say anything about the two not
working
>> together.

>Its in the 2nd Edition of the SSC, not in the older one. But the rule
>makes a reappereance in SR3, too. I think in the Combat Section under
>Vision Magnifications.

Uhm. No it's not. At least, it's not in my copy.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: Ulrich Haupt <sandman@****.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:49:49 +0000
"D. Ghost" wrote:
>
> On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:18:23 +0100 Carsten Baermann
> <Carsten.Baermann@****.UNI-GIESSEN.DE> writes:
> >On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Patrick Goodman wrote:
>
> >> >Errr...you all realise that, by definition, vision mag and smartlinks
> >> >don't work together, don't you? (See vision mag in SSC II.) Of
> course,
> >> >if you want to SWITCH between them, that's all well and good.
>
> >> Okay, maybe I'm just being dense, but how the heck do you figure this?
> I
> >> just looked in my SSC and it didn't say anything about the two not
> working
> >> together.
>
> >Its in the 2nd Edition of the SSC, not in the older one. But the rule
> >makes a reappereance in SR3, too. I think in the Combat Section under
> >Vision Magnifications.
>
> Uhm. No it's not. At least, it's not in my copy.

It's on page 280 SR3 under Imaging Scopes:
[... Imaging scopes may only be top mounted, may not be used
with smartlink
systems.]

Though the sentence sounds a bit strange to me with those
two may (hey - I'm not
a native English!) it says clearly it.

Sandman
Message no. 13
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:27:18 -0800
> >Errr...you all realise that, by definition, vision mag and smartlinks
> >don't work together, don't you? (See vision mag in SSC II.) Of course,
> >if you want to SWITCH between them, that's all well and good.
>
> Okay, maybe I'm just being dense, but how the heck do you figure this? I
> just looked in my SSC and it didn't say anything about the two not
working
> together.
>

Ditto. I found some stuff saying that using vision mag at longer ranges
will make a target look like it's moving a lot faster than it is, but
that's all.
Message no. 14
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:31:26 -0800
> >Its in the 2nd Edition of the SSC, not in the older one. But the rule
> >makes a reappereance in SR3, too. I think in the Combat Section under
> >Vision Magnifications.
>
> Uhm. No it's not. At least, it's not in my copy.

In the fine print on the bottom it says you can't use it with other "image
enhancing" cyberware. I assumed this just meant you can't be using your
mag-3 at the same time as low light or thermo.
Message no. 15
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:08:23 -0600
On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:31:26 -0800 Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
writes:
>> >Its in the 2nd Edition of the SSC, not in the older one. But the rule
>> >makes a reappereance in SR3, too. I think in the Combat Section under
>> >Vision Magnifications.

>> Uhm. No it's not. At least, it's not in my copy.

>In the fine print on the bottom it says you can't use it with other
"image
>enhancing" cyberware. I assumed this just meant you can't be using your
>mag-3 at the same time as low light or thermo.

Actually, my copy says it IS compatable with all other "vision-enhancing
systems."

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 16
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:25:38 +0000
D.Ghost wrote:
> >> >Its in the 2nd Edition of the SSC, not in the older one. But the rule
> >> >makes a reappereance in SR3, too. I think in the Combat Section under
> >> >Vision Magnifications.
>
> >> Uhm. No it's not. At least, it's not in my copy.
>
> >In the fine print on the bottom it says you can't use it with other
> "image
> >enhancing" cyberware. I assumed this just meant you can't be using your
> >mag-3 at the same time as low light or thermo.
>
> Actually, my copy says it IS compatable with all other "vision-enhancing
> systems."

I found no reference to imsging scopes IRT smartlinks or laser
sights either way in the combat chapter.

P.280, 'Imaging Scopes'
"Imaging scopes may only be top-mounted, may not be used with
smartlink systems, and requires one action to install or remove."

About laser sights, gear P. 281
"Laser sight may not be combined with a smartlink,"

It does not say anything about a max range for lasers in the chapter
on gear, but it states max 50 yards for lasers in the 'laser sight'
modifier in the combat chapter.

That means that, if someone is anal, they can combine a laser sight
and magscope. It's not specifically forbidden, but neither does it
make much sense. (Or does it?). In any case, even rules-wise, the max
range for the laser makes the combo less effective than a smartlink
for any weapon with heavy pistol range or better. (Or, extreme range
at >50 meters.).

Anyway, I'd still smartlink my scoped Remmington 950, just to have an
option of which system to use. Options are good.

Regards,
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 17
From: Hatchetman <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Laser Sights & Smartlinks (Was: Custom Bows)
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:33:49 -0800
> >In the fine print on the bottom it says you can't use it with other
> "image
> >enhancing" cyberware. I assumed this just meant you can't be using your
> >mag-3 at the same time as low light or thermo.
>
> Actually, my copy says it IS compatable with all other "vision-enhancing
> systems."
>

Ooops, read it too fast. You're right, that's what it says.

Further Reading

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