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From:	Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject:	Lasers (was Re: REVIEW- Cannon Companion)
Date:	Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:12:20 -0400

Message no. 1 I have to throw this in because so many people are complaining about
the lasers thing.

>From what I am told, laser systems, and I mean man-portable, assault
rifle style laser systems, exist today. They do not work in the same
manner as the Shadowrun lasers work, but they do exist and are about
to begin extenive field testing (or maybe they are past that now... I
don't know.)

Now, you can take that as fact, fiction, or just hear-say, but from
what I'm told, they are not that unplausible. My father (an ex-high
ranking officer for the Air Force Logistics Command HQ in OH) and two
of my ex-military buddies have all confirmed this. However, my father
also explained to me many, many years ago that "stealth" technology on
aircraft was an "impossibility" due to the shape of the aircraft. Of
course, he was wrong, but his logic and scientific knowledge of the
subject was right on.... just in the wrong direction.

My point is there are people and "R&D" groups out there who make all
of us look incredibly stupid and naive. And for any of us to say,
"that's impossible" seems a little arrogant and childish in my
opinion. We DON'T know what is possible or impossible. We DON'T know
what will be invented tomorrow. Sometimes, we just stumble on things.
Hell, some highschool kid just discovered a new micro-organism in
science class!

As far as inconsistancies go in the game... I couldn't agree more
with you guys. But, just some more crap I have to sort out as part of
my duties as a GM. (Besides, it reminds the rule-fanatics that the GM
controls the game... not the books.)

-----------------------
Wasntka
"...That peculiar disease of intellectuals,
that infatuation with ideas at the expense
of experience that compels experience to
conform to bookish preconceptions."
--Archibald MacLiesh

From:	Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject:	Lasers (was Re: REVIEW- Cannon Companion)
Date:	Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:36:15 -0700

Message no. 2 From: "Glenn Sprott" <wasntka44@*********.net>
> I have to throw this in because so many people are complaining about
> the lasers thing.
>
> >From what I am told, laser systems, and I mean man-portable, assault
> rifle style laser systems, exist today. They do not work in the same
> manner as the Shadowrun lasers work, but they do exist and are about
> to begin extenive field testing (or maybe they are past that now... I
> don't know.)

I would cast this information as seriously suspect. Unless you are thinking
of the research done on modern chemical laser cartridge weapons?

Most high-energy beam research and funding was cut with the death of star
wars in the 1980's. I've read a lot about this stuff and I can't think of a
single miliaterized personal laser weapon unless you count laser blinders
like the ZM-80.

There are no fielded high-energy beam weapons, that's a fact. Maybe in the
next 15 years we'll see them fielded (in emplacements or large mobile
setups) as BMD or even AA (especially since they can blind sensors beyond
their kill radius).

I'm sure someone out there is thinking "bullshit!" and "knows" there
are
really plasma cannons at Groom Lake, but nothing I saw or heard or read at
any time in the last 5 years points to the sort of tech you see in sci-fi
shows. YMMV

> Now, you can take that as fact, fiction, or just hear-say, but from
> what I'm told, they are not that unplausible. My father (an ex-high
> ranking officer for the Air Force Logistics Command HQ in OH) and two
> of my ex-military buddies have all confirmed this. However, my father
> also explained to me many, many years ago that "stealth" technology on
> aircraft was an "impossibility" due to the shape of the aircraft. Of
> course, he was wrong, but his logic and scientific knowledge of the
> subject was right on.... just in the wrong direction.

But you have to admit there is something suspect about the sort of capacitor
and battery technology seen in canon SR beam weapons.

> My point is there are people and "R&D" groups out there who make all
> of us look incredibly stupid and naive. And for any of us to say,
> "that's impossible" seems a little arrogant and childish in my
> opinion. We DON'T know what is possible or impossible. We DON'T know
> what will be invented tomorrow. Sometimes, we just stumble on things.
> Hell, some highschool kid just discovered a new micro-organism in
> science class!

Perhaps, but the principles of most beam weapons are well known. It's just
refinement of known principles (just as stealth tech was a refinement of
known principles).

> As far as inconsistancies go in the game... I couldn't agree more
> with you guys. But, just some more crap I have to sort out as part of
> my duties as a GM. (Besides, it reminds the rule-fanatics that the GM
> controls the game... not the books.)

True, but if you're not a gearhead how are you supposed to know if its
plausible or not? Most players will just look at the damage code and cost.
And when the new Firelance system (which I'm SURE will show up in the next
Rigger book) shows up who is going to cry foul?

SR has enough wacky technology for everyone, no need to stoke the furnace
with even more.

> Wasntka

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

From:	abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject:	Lasers (was Re: REVIEW- Cannon Companion)
Date:	Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:36:58 -0400

Message no. 3 From: "Glenn Sprott" <wasntka44@*********.net>
> From what I am told, laser systems, and I mean man-portable, assault
> rifle style laser systems, exist today. They do not work in the same
> manner as the Shadowrun lasers work, but they do exist and are about
> to begin extenive field testing (or maybe they are past that now... I
> don't know.)

Primary development on man-portable and other anti-personnel laser systems
stalled in 1996 due to humanitarian "blindness" issues, given that most
systems at the time were used for that purpose. [Note: "stalled" does not
mean "stopped."] Beyond that, there are other types of charged-particle and
beam weapons under development, but I know of no system bearing any
resemblance to the Redline that is currently under development.

Regardless, you're still left with the energy density issue. With the damage
the Redline does, and the small size of the weapon, it is unlikely something
like it will exist anytime soon, for technological, humanitarian, and
practical issues. I mean, come on, what good does a laser do as an
anti-personnel weapon? There are certain [read: anti-satellite] usages for
lasers, but I believe man-portable - much less hand-held - versions of these
are a ways off. And certainly it is unlikely that such will be deployed
anywhere beyond prototype or novelty scales. [As Tzeentch says, there *are*
20mm handguns, but they're not exactly common, neh?]

> My point is there are people and "R&D" groups out there who make all
> of us look incredibly stupid and naive. And for any of us to say,
> "that's impossible" seems a little arrogant and childish in my
> opinion. We DON'T know what is possible or impossible. We DON'T know
> what will be invented tomorrow. Sometimes, we just stumble on things.
> Hell, some highschool kid just discovered a new micro-organism in
> science class!

Well, also, do keep in mind that we're not a bunch of naive schoolchildren
here. Many of the people on this list work in military or scientific fields,
and keep abreast of the most recent developments, public or otherwise. While
the average person may find a thing unlikely and be incorrect, a person who
is well-educated on the most recent research on a subject will find himself
surprised less often.

But only time will tell if I am correct. So if there are handheld laser
weapons of the power level SR has placed them at in 2060, please, someone,
say "I told you so." It'll keep me in my place.

From:	Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject:	Lasers (was Re:-REVIEW- Cannon Companion)
Date:	Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:26:11 -0400

Message no. 4 Tzeentch writes:
>> As far as inconsistancies go in the game... I couldn't agree more
>> with you guys. But, just some more crap I have to sort out as part
of
>> my duties as a GM. (Besides, it reminds the rule-fanatics that the
GM
>> controls the game... not the books.)
>
>True, but if you're not a gearhead how are you supposed to know if
its
>plausible or not? Most players will just look at the damage code and
cost.
>And when the new Firelance system (which I'm SURE will show up in the
next
>Rigger book) shows up who is going to cry foul?

That's one of the main reasons I come here and listen to you guys
argue... I listen and learn. Believe me, I loved your critique of
the CC, even if I thought that maybe you were a little hard on it.

I was just relating what I heard. As I said, take it or leave it.

-----------------------
Wasntka
"...That peculiar disease of intellectuals,
that infatuation with ideas at the expense
of experience that compels experience to
conform to bookish preconceptions."
--Archibald MacLiesh

From:	Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject:	Lasers (was Re: REVIEW- Cannon Companion)
Date:	Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:45:26 -0700

Message no. 5 Tzeentch wrote:
>
> SR has enough wacky technology for everyone, no need to stoke the furnace
> with even more.

No reason not to, either.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

From:	GuayII@*.com GuayII@*.com
Subject:	Lasers (was Re:-REVIEW- Cannon Companion)
Date:	Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:39:54 EDT

Message no. 6 > Tzeentch writes:

> >And when the new Firelance system (which I'm SURE will show up in the
> next
> >Rigger book) shows up who is going to cry foul?

Well, the Firelance Vehicle laser was cool IMHO. By "cool" I mean that it didn't
have any avalibility/street index listed with it. Players shouldn't be able to aquire it.
Now if only the rest of the lasers were the same...

Cash

From:	Jonathan Hurley silvercat@***********.org
Subject:	Lasers (was Re:-REVIEW- Cannon Companion)
Date:	Wed, 12 Apr 2000 02:56:40 -0400

Message no. 7 ----- Original Message -----
From: <GuayII@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 02:39
Subject: Re: Lasers (was Re:-REVIEW- Cannon Companion)

> > Tzeentch writes:
>
> > >And when the new Firelance system (which I'm SURE will show up in the
> > next
> > >Rigger book) shows up who is going to cry foul?
>
> Well, the Firelance Vehicle laser was cool IMHO. By "cool" I mean that it
didn't have any avalibility/street index listed with it. Players shouldn't
be able to aquire it. Now if only the rest of the lasers were the same...
>
> Cash

Just as a note: I'm not too terribly worried about a weapon that does 11M
against an armored jacket. Not when an SMG can put out 10D against that same
jacket, with little to know recoil (EX Explosive and a 6-round burst).
Especially when that SMG burst is harder to dodge, by far cheaper, and IIRC
more available (even with the EX ammo). And it takes significantly less time
to reload the clip :)

If it truly worries you, chop the power by 1/3 for all laser weapons, and/or
change them to going against full impact. But even by the rules, a SMG or
better still outperforms the Redline.

Ian Silvercat claims the above in the name of himself!
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security - Benjamin Franklin
That which does not exist has never been named - Mirumoto Nohito
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:silvercat@***********.org)

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