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Message no. 1
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:21:46 -0500 (EST)
On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Stuart M. Willis wrote:

> Are 'explode on contact' mini-grenades available? They'd make everything
> alot simplier for GMs and PCs [and allow a few nasty situations].

I've always assumed that all standard (i.e. not "air-timed")
grenade-launched grenades are contact triggered. The only way a
mini-grenade is going to bounce around is if it hits something and
ricochets before it has traveled its full arming distance (5m).
"Air-timed" grenades are only slightly different. They are set to
detonate after having traveled a certain distance (which is measured with
the rangefinder, and relayed to the launcher via the rangefinder grenade
link. This figures out how much time to delay the explosion, and sets the
grenade's fuse appropriately.
Note that this is only my own interpretation. Some people run it
differently. I have a GM friend who has ruled that the grenade has a mini
inertial navigation system, and thus "knows" how far it has flown (thus
taking "air timed" quite literally) and only explodes if it goes that
distance from its original location. I tend to think there are a few
problems with that interpretation, and go with the far simpler and more
robust "timed fuse" method. If it's good enough for the OICW, it's good
enough for me.
Note that any interpretation poses its own set of ramifications,
however. The way I run it (timed fuse), if the shooter scores a "hit"
(i.e. rolls any successes), there is *no* scatter. The grenade goes along
the trajetory the shooter has chosen, and detonates at the desired time.
Boom! Sucks to be the target. If the shooter misses, I handle the
situation much like Gurth describes, although I allow ricochets since the
grenade won't detonate on impact, but only after its "time" has elapsed.
This can lead to some funky situations, as a missed grenade bounces off
some object partway through its flight path, changes direction radically,
and explodes somewhere totally unintended.
This *can* be used to your advantage if you're careful, though. I
had a player with a rangefinder grenade-link, smartlink, mathSPU, and
rangefinders in his cybereyes calculate a distance-to-target (DTT) along a
ricochet path (he could see the target, but there was an armored-glass
barrier between them that he was "going around"). He calculated the
straight-line DTT with his cybereye rangefinder, used his math SPU to
figure out the proper angle and ricochet DTT, then used his cybereyes
again to find a random target at that distance, lased that target with his
rangefinder grenade link to set the timer to the desired delay, then
turned back and fired the now "mis-timed" grenade at the ricochet point.
The grenade bounced off the wall and travelled the "wrong" distance, which
was actually the "right" distance for that trajectory. All this
calculation took him a few actions, but even with all the modifiers I
piled on him for difficulty, he still got a success, and dropped an
air-timed mini-grenade bank-shot-style into his opponent's lap.
It was consistent with my interpretation of how air-timed
mini-grenades worked, so I let him do it. Not only that, I had to give
him smarts Karma for coming up with the idea in the first place, and
"Right Place, Right Time" karma for having all of the appropriate
cyberware and weaponry to pull off the shot that none of the rest of the
team could make.

Marc
Message no. 2
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:23:53 +0100
According to Marc Renouf, at 9:21 on 3 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> Note that any interpretation poses its own set of ramifications,
> however. The way I run it (timed fuse), if the shooter scores a "hit"
> (i.e. rolls any successes), there is *no* scatter. The grenade goes along
> the trajetory the shooter has chosen, and detonates at the desired time.
> Boom! Sucks to be the target. If the shooter misses, I handle the
> situation much like Gurth describes, although I allow ricochets since the
> grenade won't detonate on impact, but only after its "time" has elapsed.

The way I handle impact-fused grenades is to assume that if the firer gets
any successes, the grenade hit the target, as Marc describes. That makes
for a 10S explosion centered on someone's person -- very nasty.

However, if it's a timed grenade it will bounce and scatter per the normal
SR rules, with the firer's or thrower's successes reducing scatter.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:22:55 +0000
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.990303085016.5445D-100000@*******>, Marc
Renouf <renouf@********.com> writes
> Note that this is only my own interpretation. Some people run it
>differently. I have a GM friend who has ruled that the grenade has a mini
>inertial navigation system, and thus "knows" how far it has flown (thus
>taking "air timed" quite literally) and only explodes if it goes that
>distance from its original location. I tend to think there are a few
>problems with that interpretation, and go with the far simpler and more
>robust "timed fuse" method. If it's good enough for the OICW, it's good
>enough for me.

OICW counts how many times the grenade has spun :) Since you know the
rifling twist, that's apparently quite accurate enough.

The Swiss AHEAD antiaircraft shell uses three coils at the muzzle: two
measure shell velocity, the third inductively programs a time fuse to
burst just short of the target, thus 'shotgunning' it with a cloud of
tungsten shrapnel.

Or you just use 'best guess' as to muzzle velocity and set a timer :)


INS in a grenade? Doubt it...


<big snip>

> It was consistent with my interpretation of how air-timed
>mini-grenades worked, so I let him do it. Not only that, I had to give
>him smarts Karma for coming up with the idea in the first place, and
>"Right Place, Right Time" karma for having all of the appropriate
>cyberware and weaponry to pull off the shot that none of the rest of the
>team could make.

Hey, why not? :)

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 4
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:59:44 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> OICW counts how many times the grenade has spun :) Since you know the
> rifling twist, that's apparently quite accurate enough.

Really? How does it count the turns?

> The Swiss AHEAD antiaircraft shell uses three coils at the muzzle: two
> measure shell velocity, the third inductively programs a time fuse to
> burst just short of the target, thus 'shotgunning' it with a cloud of
> tungsten shrapnel.

The AHEAD system kicks ass. You gotta give those guys credit for
being crack-headed enough to pull it off.

> Or you just use 'best guess' as to muzzle velocity and set a timer :)

That's typically how I run it.

> INS in a grenade? Doubt it...

My sentiments exactly. Though if a grenade can tell how many
times it has spun...

Marc
Message no. 5
From: Damian Robinson max.robinson@**.net.au
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 12:20:46 +1100
Marc Renouf wrote:
>
> On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
> > OICW counts how many times the grenade has spun :) Since you know the
> > rifling twist, that's apparently quite accurate enough.
>
> Really? How does it count the turns?

iirc, the grenade has centrifuge type arrangment (thats the best way I
can describe it now) that, after the right number of turns gets out of
the way of the fuve mecanisim.

hope that don't confuse anyone any more than they were before !

> > The Swiss AHEAD antiaircraft shell uses three coils at the muzzle: two
> > measure shell velocity, the third inductively programs a time fuse to
> > burst just short of the target, thus 'shotgunning' it with a cloud of
> > tungsten shrapnel.
>
> The AHEAD system kicks ass. You gotta give those guys credit for
> being crack-headed enough to pull it off.

The Swiss just love to make great guns, but they cost a fortune!

> > Or you just use 'best guess' as to muzzle velocity and set a timer :)
>
> That's typically how I run it.

muzzle velocity is normally faily constant from a type of amo, so a
normal timer isn't out of the question.

> > INS in a grenade? Doubt it...
>
> My sentiments exactly. Though if a grenade can tell how many
> times it has spun...

in a 155mm+ arty shell, possibly, but nothing less...
Howver, laser seeking is easy, and so is heat seeking.
you just need the time of flight to be long enough to get a meaningful
correction in. so it would have to be indirect fire to work well.

--
Cheers
Damian

Home Page:
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#14030875
Message no. 6
From: Elling Polden thorondor_sr@*****.com
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:08:37 -0800 (PST)
As far as I have heard, Air burst mutions, usualy artillery shells,
mortar or aircraft bombs detonate above ground to cause maximun
shrapnel dammage. This is most likely the mission of the air timed
grenade as well. What would be the point of a air burst Anitvehicle
grenade? As a military weapon it would most likely be used against dug
in enemy or troop consentrations. The great thing about a airburst
grenade combined with a smartlink is that you could make it detonate
just behind a corner or over a foxhole, showering those how are
covering there with shrapnel. Im considering using it for clearing the
decks of pirate ships..
Coments?

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:27:18 +0100
According to Elling Polden, at 10:08 on 4 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> As far as I have heard, Air burst mutions, usualy artillery shells,
> mortar or aircraft bombs detonate above ground to cause maximun
> shrapnel dammage.

Yep. These use a (relatively) high-tech fuse that senses the distance
between the shell and the ground, and detonates it at an appropriate
height to cause maximum effect.

> This is most likely the mission of the air timed grenade as well.

No, it isn't. If you look in the Street Samurai Catalog, it specifically
states the air-timed (not air-burst) thingie is to "put an end to scatter
hazards," not cause more casualties.

> What would be the point of a air burst Anitvehicle grenade?

It could be used in an explosively-formed projectile, although a proximity
fuse (aimed directly forward) would work just as well for that.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.gweep.net
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: 04 Mar 1999 13:27:25 -0500
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* Elling Polden <thorondor_sr@*****.com> Thu, 04 Mar 1999
| As far as I have heard, Air burst mutions, usualy artillery shells,
| mortar or aircraft bombs detonate above ground to cause maximun
| shrapnel dammage.

Close.

Any explosive blast (discounting shaped charges) is spherical. If you
detonate on the ground, most of the blast energy is reflected upwards by
the ground. But if you detonate in the air, the energy that would be
deflected up is instead coming down over a larger area and, well, it does
more damage that way.

| This is most likely the mission of the air timed grenade as well. What
| would be the point of a air burst Anitvehicle grenade?

Useless. Anti-armor munitions use a shaped charge to focus the energy over
a small area. Air burst and anti-armor is a contradiction.

| As a military weapon it would most likely be used against dug in enemy or
| troop consentrations.

You wouldn't use anti-armor for either of these. For the former you would
use a delayed fuse explosive; for the latter, anti-personnel cluster
munitions.

| The great thing about a airburst grenade combined with a smartlink is
| that you could make it detonate just behind a corner or over a foxhole,

Ummm... not. There is no communications channel from your link to the
grenade for you to trigger the detonator. It is strictly a fire and forget
deal.
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--
Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
Message no. 9
From: Stainless Steel Rat ratinox@******.gweep.net
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: 04 Mar 1999 13:42:47 -0500
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* "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> Thu, 04 Mar 1999
| Yep. These use a (relatively) high-tech fuse that senses the distance
| between the shell and the ground, and detonates it at an appropriate
| height to cause maximum effect.

There are all kinds of ways to time an air burst drop. The simplest and
least accurate is a timer which starts with the drop and detonates after a
set time. More common, a simple altimiter is used for the trigger: it
detonates at a set altitude within a given margin of error. There are
other ways of fusing an air burst, but the altimiter is still a winner for
both simplicity and accuracy. They cannot be jammed like radar, or
obscured by smoke or clouds like IR and other opticals. Not particularly
high-tech at all, really.
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--
Rat <ratinox@******.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
Message no. 10
From: ArcLight arclight@**************.com
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:19:46 +0100
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org On Behalf Of Stainless Steel Rat
> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 7:27 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Re: Launched and Air-timed Grenades

<snip>

> | This is most likely the mission of the air timed grenade as well. What
> | would be the point of a air burst Anitvehicle grenade?
>
> Useless. Anti-armor munitions use a shaped charge to focus the
> energy over
> a small area. Air burst and anti-armor is a contradiction.

Absolutely. Only when you score a direct hit, your attack can get
AV-capability. An open explosion of an AV-grenade won't be more
anti-vehicular than any other explosion is.

ArcLight
[BABY #361]------------[ICQ 14322211]
All suspects are guilty, serious.
Otherwise, they wouldn't be suspects,
would they?
Message no. 11
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Launched and Air-timed Grenades
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:56:55 +0100
According to Stainless Steel Rat, at 13:42 on 4 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> There are all kinds of ways to time an air burst drop. The simplest and
> least accurate is a timer which starts with the drop and detonates after a
> set time. More common, a simple altimiter is used for the trigger: it
> detonates at a set altitude within a given margin of error. There are
> other ways of fusing an air burst, but the altimiter is still a winner for
> both simplicity and accuracy. They cannot be jammed like radar, or
> obscured by smoke or clouds like IR and other opticals. Not particularly
> high-tech at all, really.

The reason I called them "(relatively) high-tech" is because this requires
something more complicated than a simple impact fuse (which tend to
detonate shells only once they've buried themselves underground). If it
looks like I suggested that it requires SR-level technology or anything
close to that, perhaps I should have chosen my words more carefully...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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