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Message no. 1
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:47:21 +0000
I just received this as an e-mail....
As you all seem to be talking about LAVs and Harrier Jump Jets and so on at
the moment........

---------------------- ---------------------- -------------------------

|The Darwin Award is an annual honor given to the person who did the gene
|pool the biggest service by killing themselves in the most
|extraordinarily stupid way. Last year's winner was the fellow who was
|killed by a Coke machine, which toppled over on top of him as he was
|attempting to tip a free soda out of it.
|
|This year's nominee:
|
|The Arizona Highway Patrol came upon a pile of smoldering metal embedded
|into the side of a cliff rising above the road at the apex of a curve.
|The wreckage resembled the site of an airplane crash, but it was a car.
|The type of car was unidentifiable at the scene. The lab finally figured
|out what it was and what had happened.
|
|It seems that a guy had somehow gotten hold of a JATO unit (Jet Assisted
|Take Off-- actually a solid-fuel rocket) that is used to give heavy
|military transport planes an extra "push" for taking off from short
|airfields. He had driven his Chevy Impala out into the desert and found
|a long, straight stretch of road. Then he attached the JATO unit to his
|car, jumped in, got up some speed and fired off the JATO.
|
|The facts as best as could be determined are that the operator of the
|1967 Impala hit the JATO ignition at a distance of approximately 3.0
|miles from the crash site. This was established by the prominent
|scorched and melted asphalt at that location.
|
|The JATO, if operating properly, would have reached maximum thrust
|within 5 seconds, causing the Chevy to reach speeds well in excess of
|350 mph and continuing at full power for an additional 20-25 seconds.
|
|The driver, soon to be pilot, most likely would have experienced
|G-forces usually reserved for dog-fighting F-14 jocks under full
|afterburners, basically causing him to become insignificant for the
|remainder of the event. However, the automobile remained on the straight
|highway for about 2.5 miles (15-20 seconds) before the driver applied
|and completely melted the brakes, blowing the tires and leaving thick
|rubber marks on the road surface, then becoming airborne for an
|additional 1.4 miles and impacting the cliff face at a height of 125
|feet leaving a blackened crater 3 feet deep in the rock.
|
|Most of the driver's remains were not recoverable; however, fingernail
|shards were removed from a piece of debris believed to be a portion of
|the steering wheel.
|
|Epilogue
|
|It has been calculated that, were it not for the cliff, this man would
|have reached Mach I. As it were, he apparently attained a ground-speed
|of approximately 420 mph before impacting the cliff.
|


--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:45:51 +0000
In article <29729.199703251106@*****.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>, Spike
<u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> writes

<snip rocket car story>
>|Epilogue
>|
>|It has been calculated that, were it not for the cliff, this man would
>|have reached Mach I. As it were, he apparently attained a ground-speed
>|of approximately 420 mph before impacting the cliff.
>|

420mph, or 675.92 kph. Just slightly above cruising speed for an LAV
(Banshee 600kph). Makes the rockies a bit more of a challenge I guess.
One thing. Assuming the speed the Banshee travels at in cruise mode,
does the thing have proximity sensors to warn of impending disaster, or
do all Banshee pilots suffer from extreme nervous exhaustion?


--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Message no. 3
From: Shawn Baumgartner <deosyne@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 02:07:17 -0800
>Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:45:51 +0000
>From: Avenger

>In article , Spike
> writes
>
>
>>|Epilogue
>>|
>>|It has been calculated that, were it not for the
cliff, this man would
>>|have reached Mach I. As it were, he apparently
attained a ground-speed
>>|of approximately 420 mph before impacting the
cliff.
>>|
>
>420mph, or 675.92 kph. Just slightly above cruising
speed for an LAV
>(Banshee 600kph). Makes the rockies a bit more of a
challenge I guess.
>One thing. Assuming the speed the Banshee travels
at in cruise mode,
>does the thing have proximity sensors to warn of
impending disaster, or
>do all Banshee pilots suffer from extreme nervous
>exhaustion?

According to the Denver books, T-bird Jammers
meticulously plan out their routes step by step
before every run. Besides, Banshees are equipped
standard with Military II (rating 7) sensors. They
can detect a mouse fart at three klicks. That, their
wicked speed, bitchin' armor (remember, 6/6 is
_standard_; before some lunatic with a torch says,
"Maybe a couple more plates..."), wicked firepower,
all with a sig of FIVE standard makes these beasts
nasty as hell!

Shawn
Okay, so I dig 'em. :P


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Message no. 4
From: Craig J Wilhelm <nyccraig@****.COM>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:40:33 EST
On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 02:07:17 -0800 Shawn Baumgartner
<deosyne@*******.COM> writes:

>According to the Denver books, T-bird Jammers
>meticulously plan out their routes step by step
>before every run. Besides, Banshees are equipped
>standard with Military II (rating 7) sensors. They
>can detect a mouse fart at three klicks. That, their
>wicked speed, bitchin' armor (remember, 6/6 is
>_standard_; before some lunatic with a torch says,
>"Maybe a couple more plates..."), wicked firepower,
>all with a sig of FIVE standard makes these beasts
>nasty as hell!
>
>Shawn
>Okay, so I dig 'em. :P

Hey bro, if your playing 2nd Edition, you need to Triple the
armor values of the vehicles in the Rigger Blackbook.
Check out page 276 in the SR2 rule book.

Either way, gotta love the Banshee. Mad firepower, lotsa armor
and it can still pull mach 1!
Message no. 5
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:07:35 EST
On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 02:07:17 -0800 Shawn Baumgartner
<deosyne@*******.COM> writes:
<snip>
>According to the Denver books, T-bird Jammers
>meticulously plan out their routes step by step
>before every run. Besides, Banshees are equipped
>standard with Military II (rating 7) sensors. They
>can detect a mouse fart at three klicks. That, their
>wicked speed, bitchin' armor (remember, 6/6 is
>_standard_; before some lunatic with a torch says,
>"Maybe a couple more plates..."), wicked firepower,
>all with a sig of FIVE standard makes these beasts
>nasty as hell!
>

That reminds me: the RBB (a friend of mine has a copy) lists the Banshee
as Body/Armor=6/6, SR2 lists it at 6/18...

And I guess the Signature 5 precludes the loud noise/clouds of dust they
were talking about earlier, huh:)




>Shawn
>Okay, so I dig 'em. :P

Yep. T-birds are downright _cool_:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 6
From: Shawn Baumgartner <deosyne@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:57:50 -0800
>Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:07:35 EST
>From: L Canthros

>
>>According to the Denver books, T-bird Jammers
>>meticulously plan out their routes step by step
>>before every run. Besides, Banshees are equipped
>>standard with Military II (rating 7) sensors. They
>>can detect a mouse fart at three klicks. That,
their
>>wicked speed, bitchin' armor (remember, 6/6 is
>>_standard_; before some lunatic with a torch says,
>>"Maybe a couple more plates..."), wicked firepower,

>>all with a sig of FIVE standard makes these beasts
>>nasty as hell!
>>
>
>That reminds me: the RBB (a friend of mine has a
copy) lists the Banshee
>as Body/Armor=6/6, SR2 lists it at 6/18...

18!?!?!? Holy shit! A point more and its shaggin' off
Panther Cannon rounds without even trying! Guess I
gotta finally knuckle down and pick up the SR2 main
book and lay my SR1 to rest. Or I could just fake it
until RBB2 comes out! :)

>And I guess the Signature 5 precludes the loud
noise/clouds of dust they
>were talking about earlier, huh:)

Actually signature has nothing to do with being able
to see it. You can whip out your handy-dandy AVM and
cut loose at the dust cloud, but it had better be
wire guided or have a bitchin' tracking system. That
and it's pretty damn quiet (It's not a Harrier,
despite the comparisons made; as a side note, you
ever been sleeping in the berthing right underneath
Spot 4 on the flight deck? Sucks when the Air Dept.
pukes decide to drop a Harrier on that sucker while
you're racked out! Sorry, drifting again. :P)

Shawn
Ever seen a forklift that wasn't chained down roll
into a Harrier that was during a heavy roll? Pretty
damn funny. :)


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Message no. 7
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:03:31 +1000
> >That reminds me: the RBB (a friend of mine has a
> copy) lists the Banshee
> >as Body/Armor=6/6, SR2 lists it at 6/18...
>
> 18!?!?!? Holy shit! A point more and its shaggin' off
> Panther Cannon rounds without even trying! Guess I
> gotta finally knuckle down and pick up the SR2 main
> book and lay my SR1 to rest. Or I could just fake it
> until RBB2 comes out! :)

It STILL does. Remember, it's vehicular armour. ie, half body is added
to armour, and half armour is added to body. adjusting for that, it's 15/21.

Unless, of course, I remember my rules incorrectly.

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 8
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:09:39 +0100
> > >That reminds me: the RBB (a friend of mine has a
> > copy) lists the Banshee
> > >as Body/Armor=6/6, SR2 lists it at 6/18...
> >
> > 18!?!?!? Holy shit! A point more and its shaggin' off
> > Panther Cannon rounds without even trying! Guess I
> > gotta finally knuckle down and pick up the SR2 main
> > book and lay my SR1 to rest. Or I could just fake it
> > until RBB2 comes out! :)
>
> It STILL does. Remember, it's vehicular armour. ie, half body is added
> to armour, and half armour is added to body. adjusting for that, it's 15/21.
>
> Unless, of course, I remember my rules incorrectly.
>
> Guardian

I think it works as follows: full body is added to armor, but not
hardened, and half the armor adds to body for damage resistance.
Thats at least what it is in RBB1, I don't know if there are any
changes in the second.....

ss
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:43:27 +0100
Shawn Baumgartner said on 22:57/26 Mar 97...

> >as Body/Armor=6/6, SR2 lists it at 6/18...
>
> 18!?!?!? Holy shit! A point more and its shaggin' off
> Panther Cannon rounds without even trying!

It already does... The base power must _exceed_ the vehicle armor in order
to cause damage -- you will need something like a Victory cannon or a
powerful missile to hurt a Banshee.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
and there are those, there are those who think
that drastic actions will make them unique
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:43:27 +0100
L Canthros said on 17:07/26 Mar 97...

> That reminds me: the RBB (a friend of mine has a copy) lists the Banshee
> as Body/Armor=6/6, SR2 lists it at 6/18...

SRII's rating is the right one, because in the sourcebook updates section
it says to multiply all armor ratings of RBB vehicles by 3. That makes the
Banshee 6/18 in the RBB as well.

> And I guess the Signature 5 precludes the loud noise/clouds of dust they
> were talking about earlier, huh:)

Maybe it includes the effects of ECM? I know ECM is rolled and its
successes added to the TN, but it's possible that military vehicles get
fitted with ECM systems that also add a bit to their base Signature?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
and there are those, there are those who think
that drastic actions will make them unique
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 10:43:27 +0100
ADAM B. TRELOAR said on 17:03/27 Mar 97...

> It STILL does. Remember, it's vehicular armour. ie, half body is added
> to armour, and half armour is added to body. adjusting for that, it's 15/21.
>
> Unless, of course, I remember my rules incorrectly.

That's what you did, yeah :)

The full Body is added to the armor rating, but only for the purposes of
the actual resistance test TN; the Banshee has an armor of 18, which means
a shot with a Power of 19 or higher will not bounce off, despite the
effective armor rating being 26.

The number of dice rolled is equal to Body + Armor / 2, so in case of the
Banshee that's 15, though the actual Body is only 6.

Using one of my house rules, it would most likely get to roll even more
dice: I give one extra die for every 2 full points that the Armor rating
exceeds the Power Level -- a Power 19 shot against the Banshee would be
resisted with 3 extra dice, for example.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
and there are those, there are those who think
that drastic actions will make them unique
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 12
From: TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:56:31 -0500
You wrote:
> L Canthros said on 17:07/26 Mar 97...

> > And I guess the Signature 5 precludes the loud noise/clouds of dust they
> > were talking about earlier, huh:)

> Maybe it includes the effects of ECM? I know ECM is rolled and its
> successes added to the TN, but it's possible that military vehicles get
> fitted with ECM systems that also add a bit to their base Signature?

If that were the case, wouldn't they have mentioned that somewhere in
the RBB? FASA's usually pretty good at including things like that somewhere in
the rules, even if it isn't right where you need it. And if the ECM was to be
included into the signatures of most, or at least some military vehicles, that
would certainly make it into print in one of the books. I figure the Sig of 5
means that the Banshee is something a little different from the Harrier type
things that everyone is taking them to be. Someone had mentioned that using
bigger fans would move more air and thus provide more lift. That being the
case, why couldn't the Banshees and other LAV's just vector the thrust from
bigger blades, instead of using jet engines. (Or is it stated that they use jet
propulsion? I don't have my books with me so I don't know.) Anyway, that's my
2 cents.

-The Immortal Mental
Message no. 13
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:08:58 -0500
At 05:56 AM 3/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>You wrote:
>> L Canthros said on 17:07/26 Mar 97...
>
>> > And I guess the Signature 5 precludes the loud noise/clouds of dust they
>> > were talking about earlier, huh:)
>
>> Maybe it includes the effects of ECM? I know ECM is rolled and its
>> successes added to the TN, but it's possible that military vehicles get
>> fitted with ECM systems that also add a bit to their base Signature?
>
> If that were the case, wouldn't they have mentioned that somewhere in
>the RBB? FASA's usually pretty good at including things like that
somewhere in
>the rules, even if it isn't right where you need it. And if the ECM was to be
>included into the signatures of most, or at least some military vehicles,
that
>would certainly make it into print in one of the books. I figure the Sig of 5
>means that the Banshee is something a little different from the Harrier type
>things that everyone is taking them to be. Someone had mentioned that using
>bigger fans would move more air and thus provide more lift. That being the
>case, why couldn't the Banshees and other LAV's just vector the thrust from
>bigger blades, instead of using jet engines. (Or is it stated that they
use jet
>propulsion? I don't have my books with me so I don't know.) Anyway, that's my
>2 cents.
>
>-The Immortal Mental
>
>

The impression I have is that it does use jet engines for the vectored
thrust. I suspect using fans would not work with the mass and capabilities
of a Banshee. As far as the signature, I think it reflects a military
vehicle that has simply been designed to provide a certain level of
'stealth'. Hard lines to break its radar signature, shrouded vents for its
vector thrust system, and the shape of the body itself may help to make it
difficult to lock missiles and other automated systems onto it. If it was
intended for high speed recon (regardless of whether that is realistically
feasible), this seems to me the best explanation for the relatively high
signature.

--Blair
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blair A. Monroe | Webmaster - FSU SLIS | bmonroe@******.fsu.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 21:16:13 +0000
On 27 Mar 97 at 8:09, Simon T. Sailer wrote:
[snip]

> > It STILL does. Remember, it's vehicular armour. ie, half body is
> > added to armour, and half armour is added to body. adjusting for
> > that, it's 15/21.
> > Unless, of course, I remember my rules incorrectly.
Yup. (btw: does your ruling work recursivly? :-)

> I think it works as follows: full body is added to armor, but not
> hardened, and half the armor adds to body for damage resistance.
> Thats at least what it is in RBB1, I don't know if there are any
> changes in the second.....
Better, but not quite.

SRII, p. 108: "In attacks against vehicles /with/ vehicle armor, the
armor acts as a Barrier Rating. [...]
When resisting damage, a driver whose vehicle has vehicle armor rolls
a number of dice equal to the body of the vehicle, plus one-half of
the vehicle armor against a target number equal to the Power of the
weapon, minus the Body plus vehicle Armor Ratings."

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 15
From: Amper <amper@****.DATANET.HU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:51:59 +0100
> It STILL does. Remember, it's vehicular armour. ie, half body is added
> to armour, and half armour is added to body. adjusting for that, it's 15/21.
>
> Unless, of course, I remember my rules incorrectly.
>
> Guardian
>
No, the correct rule is the follow: Full body add to the armor (this
reduce the Power), and the half armor add to the body (this add the
number of dices to the resistance test).
--
,--\/----\/----\/----\/----\/-,
l / l
l AmpeR by Hungary /_ l
l Programmer & RPG player / l
l amper@****.datanet.hu / l
l \/ l
l_/\/\__/\/\__/\/\__/\/\__/\/\l
Message no. 16
From: Amper <amper@****.DATANET.HU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 23:16:57 +0100
> > And I guess the Signature 5 precludes the loud noise/clouds of dust they
> > were talking about earlier, huh:)

No, because I think, the Signature the base TN for electronics, and the
electronics don't hear.
--
,--\/----\/----\/----\/----\/-,
l / l
l AmpeR by Hungary /_ l
l Programmer & RPG player / l
l amper@****.datanet.hu / l
l \/ l
l_/\/\__/\/\__/\/\__/\/\__/\/\l
Message no. 17
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 17:56:41 -0500
> > > And I guess the Signature 5 precludes the loud noise/clouds of dust they
> > > were talking about earlier, huh:)
>
> No, because I think, the Signature the base TN for electronics, and the
> electronics don't hear.

They might not hear now, but if you can't get a radar signature due to
jamming and an IR signiture due to masking, you might start trying to hear
something, especially something like a LAV. You could set simple sonic
arrays along ridgelines and get a good idea where they were. It would be
alot easier and cheaper than using radar drones to patrol, and probably
fairly effective... Just an idea.
Message no. 18
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 09:36:03 +1000
> That reminds me: the RBB (a friend of mine has a copy) lists the Banshee
> as Body/Armor=6/6, SR2 lists it at 6/18...

That's because all armour values in first edition need to be tripled to
bring them up to 2nd edition.

Ray
Message no. 19
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 16:38:10 +1000
> 18!?!?!? Holy shit! A point more and its shaggin' off
> Panther Cannon rounds without even trying! Guess I
> gotta finally knuckle down and pick up the SR2 main
> book and lay my SR1 to rest. Or I could just fake it
> until RBB2 comes out! :)
>

Bit worse than that..... Half the Body gets added to the armor rating.
Makes it an effective rating of 21, of which you need a flat out 18 from
a single round. the Panther is the only man-portable weapon capable of
18's with a single round, and that lil' critter can't do burst fire.

Even then, Full auto assault cannons ain't gonna do squat, 'cause apparently
half the armor rating gets added to the body dice when rolling resistance
tests.

..... Then you also add the control pool that any half-decent rigger is
going to have, and they become fully bitch-hard targets to take down.


Gotta love ripples of unguided aircraft rockets.

Hope that I haven't echoed someone elses posts... I'm a little behind at
the moment.


Bleach.
Message no. 20
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 16:46:39 +1000
> The impression I have is that it does use jet engines for the vectored
> thrust. I suspect using fans would not work with the mass and capabiliti=
es
> of a Banshee. As far as the signature, I think it reflects a military
> vehicle that has simply been designed to provide a certain level of
> 'stealth'. Hard lines to break its radar signature, shrouded vents for i=
ts
> vector thrust system, and the shape of the body itself may help to make i=
t
> difficult to lock missiles and other automated systems onto it. If it wa=
s
> intended for high speed recon (regardless of whether that is realisticall=
y
> feasible), this seems to me the best explanation for the relatively high
> signature.
>

Ditto on the jet engine model...... As far as the sig goes, think ground
clutter. Any sensor is going to have a bitch of a time
_accurately_ targetting anything if it's close to the ground (at least in=

comparison to something sitting in the middle of the sky).... add that to=

the speed these things are capable of and you get a rationale of the
signature.

As far as auditory signature goes, well you could probably hear them from=

about a klick away at least.

Anyone ever thought about the phenomenon of ground effect??? As far as
I'm concerned an LAV can't fly without it..... That's why they are called=

LOW ALTITUDE VEHICLES... all the fiction references to them pulling
vertical loops and getting hundreds of feet of altitude really pisses me
off.... It'd be way harder than looping a helicopter (which can be done),=

because most helicopters aren't flying armoured housebricks like a Banshee.

Just my two ¥ worth

Bleach.
Message no. 21
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 16:48:59 +1000
> No, the correct rule is the follow: Full body add to the armor (this
> reduce the Power), and the half armor add to the body (this add the
> number of dices to the resistance test).

I prefer our house rule... partially because it means that an
anti-vehicle missle will not even SCRATCH a Steel Lynx or Guardian drone
if full body is added to armor.

BTW Lets leave armor peirceing rules out of this, because they've nver been
defined for vehicles.

Bleach
Message no. 22
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:46:13 +0000
In message <01IGZJDNV5BW937GP5@******.acs.muohio.edu>,
TEGTMEBC@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU writes
>I figure the Sig of 5
>means that the Banshee is something a little different from the Harrier type
>things that everyone is taking them to be.

Just means it's hard to lock a sensor set or a missile onto, doesn't
make it hard to see or hear: FASA greatly simplifies issues like RCS,
thermal signature, and the various natures of sensors into "Sensor" and
"Signature" rating: for instance, there's no penalty to running sensors
in active mode, despite the fact that pumping out microwaves is a good
way to be detected and classified.

>Someone had mentioned that using
>bigger fans would move more air and thus provide more lift. That being the
>case, why couldn't the Banshees and other LAV's just vector the thrust from
>bigger blades, instead of using jet engines.

Bigger blades equals bigger intakes and exhausts, and more machinery to
vector the thrust, all of which have to be armoured somehow. Okay, you
might not be able to pierce the armoured hull, but take out a lift fan
and that Banshee is going to have trouble staying airborne: and you
can't put a few inches of steel over it and still have it work.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 23
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:10:38 +1000
> Gotta love ripples of unguided aircraft rockets.

*grin* I'd like to see a banshee resist a, what, 52D even WITH all that
armor and body and riggers and stuff...

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:13:13 +1000
> Anyone ever thought about the phenomenon of ground effect??? As far as
> I'm concerned an LAV can't fly without it..... That's why they are called
> LOW ALTITUDE VEHICLES... all the fiction references to them pulling
> vertical loops and getting hundreds of feet of altitude really pisses me
> off.... It'd be way harder than looping a helicopter (which can be done),
> because most helicopters aren't flying armoured housebricks like a Banshee.

Agreed in principle, but note that helicopters ARE flying bricks.
According to normal physics, they shouldn't work. AFAIK physicists
around the world still haven't developed a solid theory as to why they
get off the ground. Lots of hypothesese (sp?) but no-one's managed to
prove anything.

Of course, I could be wrong. :)

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 25
From: Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 21:29:31 -0500
>Agreed in principle, but note that helicopters ARE flying bricks.
>According to normal physics, they shouldn't work. AFAIK physicists
>around the world still haven't developed a solid theory as to why they
>get off the ground. Lots of hypothesese (sp?) but no-one's managed to
>prove anything.
>
>Of course, I could be wrong. :)

The physics of rotor craft are well understood, actually, sorry
to burst your bubble, but this is just an old wives tale.

Gossamer

"I'm an angel. I kill first borns while their mommas watch.
I turn cities into salt. I even, when I feel like it, rip the
souls from little girls. And from now 'til Kingdom Come, the
only thing you can count on, in your existence, is never
understanding why."
-The Angel Gabriel, in "The Prophecy"
Message no. 26
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 03:24:51 EDT
On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:13:13 +1000 "ADAM B. TRELOAR" writes:
>
>Agreed in principle, but note that helicopters ARE flying bricks.
>According to normal physics, they shouldn't work. AFAIK physicists
>around the world still haven't developed a solid theory as to why they
>get off the ground. Lots of hypothesese (sp?) but no-one's managed to
>prove anything.

Shouldn't the fact that they DO manage to get off the ground prove that
they work?

~Tim (According to normal physics, bumble bee's can't fly either, but it
doesn't stop THEM.)
Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:15:25 +0100
ADAM B. TRELOAR said on 10:13/ 7 Apr 97...

> Agreed in principle, but note that helicopters ARE flying bricks.
> According to normal physics, they shouldn't work. AFAIK physicists
> around the world still haven't developed a solid theory as to why they
> get off the ground. Lots of hypothesese (sp?) but no-one's managed to
> prove anything.

I thought it wasn't all that difficult... The wings (rotorblades) turn
and provide lift, thereby pulling the helicopter up into the air. The
fuselage will want to turn the other way (reaction = -action) so a tail
rotor, a second main rotor, or a NOTAR exhaust system is added to counter
that tendency.

When the cyclic is pressed forward, the vector of the upward force changes
and the helicopter loses a bit of lift buts gain forward speed. The
rotorblades turn along their longitudinal axis (higher angle = more lift)
to compensate for the difference in airspeed over them that now exists,
keeping lift evenly balanced on all sides of the rotor disc.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
In my mind all the time.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 28
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 17:10:21 +0100
In message <Pine.SOL.3.91.970407101053.6774E-100000@*****.student.gu.edu
.au>, "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes
>Agreed in principle, but note that helicopters ARE flying bricks.
>According to normal physics, they shouldn't work. AFAIK physicists
>around the world still haven't developed a solid theory as to why they
>get off the ground. Lots of hypothesese (sp?) but no-one's managed to
>prove anything.
>
>Of course, I could be wrong. :)

Afraid you are :) Aerodynamics describes rotary-winged flight perfectly
adequately.

The standard jokes are that helicopters "don't fly, they just batter the
air into submission" and "they can't fly, but they're so ugly they repel
the Earth"



--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 29
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:38:16 +0100
|Shouldn't the fact that they DO manage to get off the ground prove that
|they work?
|
|~Tim (According to normal physics, bumble bee's can't fly either, but it
|doesn't stop THEM.)

Actually, they worked out how and why a year or two ago.....

The wings flap with the aid of a rubber band type construct, so the muscle
only pulls and then releases...

(Not two sets of muscles)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 30
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: LAVs and something amusing.....
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 22:33:54 EDT
On Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:38:16 +0100 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>|~Tim (According to normal physics, bumble bee's can't fly either, but
it
>|doesn't stop THEM.)
>
>Actually, they worked out how and why a year or two ago.....
>
>The wings flap with the aid of a rubber band type construct, so the
muscle
>only pulls and then releases...
>
>(Not two sets of muscles)

Oh, Goooood.... spoil my joke by introducing reality why don'tcha....

:)

~Tim (actually IIRC the joke was about the fact that bumble bees look
about as aerodynamic as a 50 gal. oil drum with a set of tennis raquets
attached.)

Further Reading

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Thwap!