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Message no. 1
From: U-Gene <C14101@*******.BITNET>
Subject: Layered armor
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 09:15:29 EST
I don't let my players stack armor at all. What's the point? I like my
players to be slightly intimidated if an NPC pulls a Ruger Warhawk, not skoff
at the fact that the .45 round will flatten against armor (even considering the
possible reduction in combat pool. So then I need the NPC's to aim for the
head, or carry around assualt cannons. Besides, if the PC's can get blasted
by Heavy Pistols, that gives them more insentive not to get shot.
(I have a hard enough time trying to get my players to SHADOWrun. i.e. sneak)
But to each his own.

"Guess it's not a good day to be a bad guy."
-- The Crow

>>>> U-Gene <<<<
Message no. 2
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:55:43 PDT
]James Ojaste

]My runners have discovered the armor stacking rules, and I'm
]searching for a justification against Form Fit 3 and Longcoat/Armor
]Jacket. Any volunteers?

Heres an excerpt from our "house FAQ"

G1: If I wear a lined coat over a secure jacket, do I get the benefits
of both?
Vanilla (optional): Almost. You can layer armor, getting the rating of
the highest, plus one-half (round-down) the rating
of the next highest. Usually, you can only layer a jacket or coat over
clothing style armor, so the lined coat/secure jacket
ensemble is out. [This rule is on pg. 94 of the Neoanarchist's Guide to
Real Life, which came out after SRII, giving it
precedence.] Helmet and Forearm Guard Bonuses are applied directly, at
full value.

House: Althogh this allows pretty good protection, wearing multiple
peieces of armor gets cumbersome. To reflect this,
total up the full values of worn armor in both catagories. Your combat
pool is reduced by the amount by which either (or
both) exeedes your quickness. This only applies to all people wearing
more than one piece of armor (Certain armor suits
give a similar reduction, as per thier description). EXAMPLE: Mongoose,
with quickness 11, is wearing an armored jacket (5/3), a 2/6 thrasher
suit (house gear for rad skaters, on paolo's site also), forearm guards
(0/+1), and a security helmet (+1/+2). This gives him effective armor of
7/10, but the total armor worn is 8/12, so he loses 1 combat pool die.
Oh well, he's got 11 left. HiRam, with quickness 3, is wearing an armor
jacket, and decides things are getting hairy, so he pulls on a helmet.
This boosts him to 6/4, but costs him a whopping 4 combat pool. Sux,
cause that leaves him with only 4. Good thing he's a troll.

This may not help your problem much, if the characers in question have 8
or 9 quickness. Form 3/ coat/ jacket combos are pretty standard for
us, too. APDS and chem rounds are still quite a threat.
Note that if conceal-ability is the problem, having seperate rolls
against each piece of armor increases the chance that SOMETHING
will be spotted. A less draconian messure is to only penalize combat
pool for ballistic, or the higher of the two catagories.
This gives a less dramatic shift in favor of high quickness characters,
who both have more combat pool and can wear more armor
with this rule. Not unreasonably, mind you- I know some people who are
increadably clutzy in heavy winter jackets, while others wear leather,
sweaters, and wool trench coats!


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands of a
psycotic -Einstien

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Message no. 3
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 19:20:58 EDT
On Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:55:43 PDT Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
writes:
>]James Ojaste
>
>]My runners have discovered the armor stacking rules, and I'm
>]searching for a justification against Form Fit 3 and Longcoat/Armor
>]Jacket. Any volunteers?
>
>Heres an excerpt from our "house FAQ"
>

[snip]

>...Oh well, he's got 11 left. HiRam, with quickness 3, is wearing an
armor
>jacket, and decides things are getting hairy, so he pulls on a helmet.
>This boosts him to 6/4, but costs him a whopping 4 combat pool. Sux,
>cause that leaves him with only 4. Good thing he's a troll.

Whoah! Hold on a minute.... you mean to tell me that you consider
combining an armored JACKET and a HELMET "armor layering"?!?!

I know SR uses an abstract armor system... but that's IMHO taking it
pretty far.
(and why doesn't the armor jacket penalize him 2 points of pool? It's
rating exceeds his Quick. does it not? Or are you just saying that the
addition of the 1/1 helmet is just suddenly worth 4 points of penalty all
by itself?)

~Tim (sure penalize consider encumbrance for layering armor, just use a
little commonsence about it.)
Message no. 4
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:56:24 PDT
Tim wondered:

>Whoah! Hold on a minute.... you mean to tell me that you consider
>combining an armored JACKET and a HELMET "armor layering"?!?!
>
>I know SR uses an abstract armor system... but that's IMHO taking it
>pretty far. (and why doesn't the armor jacket penalize him 2 points of
pool? It's rating exceeds his Quick. does it not? Or are you just
saying that the addition of the 1/1 helmet is just suddenly worth 4
points of penalty all by itself?)

Helmets are pretty damb cumbersome- the mess up hearing, peripheral
vioin, and spatial sense- i almost invarabally bang my head walking
around inside with a helmet on. Hard hats are not as bad, for some
reason. And when wearing heavy armor (or military armor) the helmet
add to the rating affects combat pool- why should it not with other
armors?
Aditionally, the helmet in the example was a +1/+2 security helmet,
and i said that we penalize for BOTH impact and ballistic, but not that
that was a really GOOD way to do it. With just ballistic penalties, the
combat pool loss would only be 3. The jacket allone causes no penalty
because its designed to be easy to move in if worn withnormal clothes.
Admitedly, a helmet doesn't restrict torso movement much (except
possibly sholders),but the rule is mostly used to keep armor ratings
down in our campaign, anyhow. It doesn't really work, but at least not
EVERYBODY is wearing form 3, an armored jacket, fore-arm gurads,and a
helmet when they can get away with it. Just the ones with really high
quickness or no need to move. That strikes me as more realistic.
HiRam infact spends most of his combats in A-space, far from any
bullets, so the example was pretty hypothetical. He's often stashed in
the trunk in security armor (in case the car crashes), off projecting
astrally. I don't think he even owned any armor at character
creation... He's the troll air adept I was talking about.


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands of a
psycotic -Einstien


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Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:10:12 +0100
Mon goose said on 0:56/14 Oct 97...

> Helmets are pretty damb cumbersome- the mess up hearing, peripheral
> vioin, and spatial sense- i almost invarabally bang my head walking
> around inside with a helmet on. Hard hats are not as bad, for some
> reason.

What is the difference between a helmet and a hard hat? Do you see helmets
as only motorcycle crash helmets, and hard hats as military helmets or
something like that? If so, then why are you walking around indoors with a
crash helmet on? Do you live in a condemned building? :)

As for them messing up hearing, definitely, though to which degree
depends on the helmet design. With periphal vision, it again depends on
the design very much -- with modern military helmets, there is very little
of the helmet in your field of vision. Motorcycle helmets are generally a
lot worse, though.

> And when wearing heavy armor (or military armor) the helmet add to the
> rating affects combat pool- why should it not with other armors?

Because the heavy armors from SRII already incorporate a helmet? It
says so in the description of body armors, so they probably listed the
helmet as a separate item because some people will want to wear one with
other armors as well.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Artificial people? You mean ... actors?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 6
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:09:39 PDT
>What is the difference between a helmet and a hard hat? Do you see
helmets as only motorcycle crash helmets, and hard hats as military
helmets or something like that? If so, then why are you walking around
indoors with a crash helmet on? Do you live in a condemned building? :)
>

Yes,I assume any SR helemt will be fullcoverage, since suits that
include helmets can all be environmentally sealed for chem war.
As forgoing inside with my Bike helmet on, I alwaysseem to have forgoten
something once I have it on and the bike started. That, and I can park
5 feetfrom my front door, so I'm usually inside before I take it off.

>As for them messing up hearing, definitely, though to which degree
>depends on the helmet design. With periphal vision, it again depends on
the design very much -- with modern military helmets, there is very
little of the helmet in your field of vision. Motorcycle helmets are
generally a lot worse, though.
>
Are modern military helmets fullhead/ sealable? I thoughtthey were
genrally Kevlar "pots", maybe with a faceshield forriot protection.
Then again, no reason a fair portion of a SR helemt could't be som
strong, transparent material.

>> And when wearing heavy armor (or military armor) the helmet add to
therating affects combat pool- why should it not with other armors?
>
>Because the heavy armors from SRII already incorporate a helmet? It
>says so in the description of body armors, so they probably listed the
helmet as a separate item because some people will want to wear one with
other armors as well.
>

Ah, but the point was, when you add that helemt to normal heavy
armor, you may loose more combat pool. Why would younot face the same
possibility when adding that same helmet to an armored jacket and any
other stuff?

>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Mongoose

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Message no. 7
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:20:33 +0100
In article <19971014075625.8679.qmail@*******.com>, Mon goose
<landsquid@*******.COM> writes
> Helmets are pretty damb cumbersome- the mess up hearing, peripheral
>vioin, and spatial sense- i almost invarabally bang my head walking
>around inside with a helmet on.

Motorcycle helmet, sure. Army kevlar, nope: the British Army one doesn't
mess up hearing or vision to any extent. While you _can_ crack your head
from time to time indoors, I only tended to do that in the lofts of the
urban assault course at Whinney Hill (helmets compulsory: running
amongst house joists in the dark is a recipie for concussion otherwise).

Helmet and INIBA vest didn't seem to restrict at all, but being used to
wearing web gear helps.

>Hard hats are not as bad, for some
>reason. And when wearing heavy armor (or military armor) the helmet
>add to the rating affects combat pool- why should it not with other
>armors?

Because those are full-body suits?

>The jacket allone causes no penalty
>because its designed to be easy to move in if worn withnormal clothes.
>Admitedly, a helmet doesn't restrict torso movement much (except
>possibly sholders),but the rule is mostly used to keep armor ratings
>down in our campaign, anyhow. It doesn't really work, but at least not
>EVERYBODY is wearing form 3, an armored jacket, fore-arm gurads,and a
>helmet when they can get away with it. Just the ones with really high
>quickness or no need to move. That strikes me as more realistic.

I'd prefer to deal with this one by roleplaying. Have your player put on
thermal long johns, ordinary clothing (call it jeans and a shirt), a
motorcycle jacket and a motorcycle helmet. Give them a twenty-pound pack
to wear (represents a runner's weapons, ammo and gear: on the light
side, but we're being generous). Make sure they keep the jacket zipped
up.

Now have them run up and down a flight of stairs ten times on a warm
summer day. After you revive them, explain that this is how their
characters feel any time they exert themselves. Enquire politely if they
want to revise their choice of armour, by reducing it perhaps.

Also, helmets - especially security types - are noticeable. How many
people on the street walk around wearing them? Many shops and garages,
in Britain at least, demand that motorcyclists remove their helmets
before entering (full face helmets worn inappropriately being associated
with armed robbers). Give them grief based on that.


A more common combination for us is a Secure Ultra-Vest under a lined
coat: the coat's assistance in concealing weapons is usually more than
worth the slight loss in protection compared to an armoured jacket, and
it seems less likely to overheat the wearer. Helmets aren't worn unless
it's a planned, all-out, assault rifles and grenades type of run:
forearm guards are variable. Some swear by them and wear them almost all
the time, others swear at them and don't use them.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:40:48 +0000
On 14 Oct 97, Paul J. Adam disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> >down in our campaign, anyhow. It doesn't really work, but at least not
> >EVERYBODY is wearing form 3, an armored jacket, fore-arm gurads,and a
> >helmet when they can get away with it. Just the ones with really high
> >quickness or no need to move. That strikes me as more realistic.

<snip what one should make his players wear to wear them down :>>

> Now have them run up and down a flight of stairs ten times on a warm
> summer day. After you revive them, explain that this is how their
> characters feel any time they exert themselves. Enquire politely if
> they want to revise their choice of armour, by reducing it perhaps.

OK. This is my personal pet peeve. While I do agree that FF3, jacket
et all combo is unrealistic, that method of demonstration can be a
little bit unrealistic, especially if the runner is 2+ m tall troll
with Body 10 and Strength 9... That's the same thing as with various
people from SCA and stuff saying "you can't sleep in armor", just
'cause they can't. Well, they are not medieval soldiers who (during
war) wore armor all the time, and the same applies to your players -
they are not shadowrunners.

Though that approach should work with the Strength and Body 2
decker... :>

Oh, yes, and what do you do if your player is an ex-SpecForces
soldier that DOES run up and down stairs ten times? :-P


Mike (Leszek Karlik) - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
My dentist is painless - he doesn't feel a thing.
Message no. 9
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:13:05 -0400
At 07:20 PM 10/14/97 +0100, paul@********.demon.co.uk wrote:

>I'd prefer to deal with this one by roleplaying. Have your player put on
>thermal long johns, ordinary clothing (call it jeans and a shirt), a
>motorcycle jacket and a motorcycle helmet. Give them a twenty-pound pack
>to wear (represents a runner's weapons, ammo and gear: on the light
>side, but we're being generous). Make sure they keep the jacket zipped
>up.
>
>Now have them run up and down a flight of stairs ten times on a warm
>summer day. After you revive them, explain that this is how their
>characters feel any time they exert themselves. Enquire politely if they
>want to revise their choice of armour, by reducing it perhaps.

Sure, but if you start shooting at them while they are running up the
stairs they will
a) Go Faster and
b) Not give a damn how hot the "armor" makes them feel.

I somehow think all these characters that run around wearing all kinds of
armor are used to it, and know that it could save their lives. That isn't
unrealistic. You put me in a situation where my options are comfort or
safety, and its safety. (And, BTW, I just ran up about 15+ flights in a
jacket and flannel and full backpack on a warmish day for no good reason,
and it was hot and miserable and tiring. But, it was easily done, and that
was just because I felt like it. No lead motivation.)

>
>Also, helmets - especially security types - are noticeable. How many
>people on the street walk around wearing them? Many shops and garages,
>in Britain at least, demand that motorcyclists remove their helmets
>before entering (full face helmets worn inappropriately being associated
>with armed robbers). Give them grief based on that.

Now this I agree with. Helmet = trouble, or some fool who should get back
on his motorcycle. I had a character that always carried a helmet around,
but he kept it stowed away until he knew he was going to need it.

--DT
Message no. 10
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:58:59 +0100
In article <19971014170944.424.qmail@*******.com>, Mon goose
<landsquid@*******.COM> writes
>Yes,I assume any SR helemt will be fullcoverage, since suits that
>include helmets can all be environmentally sealed for chem war.

Don't need a full-face helmet for that: helmet off, mask on, hood up,
helmet back on. Qualification time from warning to "mask on" is nine
seconds in the British Army, you could do it in six if you tried.

You _certainly_ wouldn't want to live in a respirator all the time you
had your helmet on. The British S10 is the best in the world, and it
gets grim after half an hour on a warm day, or as soon as you start
exerting yourself. Chemical weapons don't kill soldiers, they force the
enemy to mask and suit up and degrade efficiency. Tasks that should take
one hour take four or five, when you're trying to repair an engine or a
rifle or a radio in respirator and butyl rubber gloves (and worrying
about the fact that oil degrades the protection of your NBC suit).


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 11
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:57:09 +0100
In article <199710142225.AAA07410@*****.onet.pl>, "Mike (Leszek Karlik)"
<trrkt@*****.ONET.PL> writes
>On 14 Oct 97, Paul J. Adam disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
>writing:
>> Now have them run up and down a flight of stairs ten times on a warm
>> summer day. After you revive them, explain that this is how their
>> characters feel any time they exert themselves. Enquire politely if
>> they want to revise their choice of armour, by reducing it perhaps.
>
>OK. This is my personal pet peeve. While I do agree that FF3, jacket
>et all combo is unrealistic, that method of demonstration can be a
>little bit unrealistic, especially if the runner is 2+ m tall troll
>with Body 10 and Strength 9... That's the same thing as with various
>people from SCA and stuff saying "you can't sleep in armor", just
>'cause they can't. Well, they are not medieval soldiers who (during
>war) wore armor all the time, and the same applies to your players -
>they are not shadowrunners.

Would you live like that _all the time_?

I don't have a problem with runners pulling out all the stops on a high-
threat run and putting up with the heat and the weight: it could save
their life in a dangerous situation. But would you endure that sort of
discomfort day in, day out, as some players insist their characters do?
Would you wander into a Bellevue restaurant wearing this sort of rig?

And not many mediaeval soldiers wore armour, literally, "all the time":
though they did live in it for a lot longer than your typical SCA member
while campaigning, like modern soldiers with web gear and rucksacks you
get the extra gear off any time it's not going to be needed for your own
comfort and convenience.


>Though that approach should work with the Strength and Body 2
>decker... :>
>
>Oh, yes, and what do you do if your player is an ex-SpecForces
>soldier that DOES run up and down stairs ten times? :-P

Then as GM you've probably noticed that detail, and the player is likely
to accept the discomfort of armour without needing the demonstration ;)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 12
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:19:01 +0000
On 15 Oct 97, Paul J. Adam disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip stuff about armor, FF3/jacket combo and Bellevue restaurants>

> Would you live like that _all the time_?

Nope. :>

> I don't have a problem with runners pulling out all the stops on a
> high- threat run and putting up with the heat and the weight: it
> could save their life in a dangerous situation. But would you endure
> that sort of discomfort day in, day out, as some players insist
> their characters do? Would you wander into a Bellevue restaurant
> wearing this sort of rig?

Hmmmm... If they do insist on getting into a restaurant like this, or
live all the time in this outfit, well... make them jump up and down
the stairs... running's too easy. <grin>

> And not many mediaeval soldiers wore armour, literally, "all the
> time": though they did live in it for a lot longer than your typical
> SCA member while campaigning, like modern soldiers with web gear and
> rucksacks you get the extra gear off any time it's not going to be
> needed for your own comfort and convenience.

Yes, of course, like when you're pillaging the conquered city, but
what I meant is that it is possible to sleep in armor etc. After all,
when you were deep in the enemy territory, it was better to be safe
then sorry, :>

> >Oh, yes, and what do you do if your player is an ex-SpecForces
> >soldier that DOES run up and down stairs ten times? :-P
>
> Then as GM you've probably noticed that detail, and the player is
> likely to accept the discomfort of armour without needing the
> demonstration ;)

Yeah, probably. :>


Mike (Leszek Karlik) - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Bureaucracy rules OK OK OK
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:53:55 +0100
Paul J. Adam said on 19:20/14 Oct 97...

> I'd prefer to deal with this one by roleplaying. Have your player put on
> thermal long johns, ordinary clothing (call it jeans and a shirt), a
> motorcycle jacket and a motorcycle helmet. Give them a twenty-pound pack
> to wear (represents a runner's weapons, ammo and gear: on the light
> side, but we're being generous). Make sure they keep the jacket zipped
> up.

How about giving them something to hold as well, so they can't really use
their hands to stay standing? *grin*

> Now have them run up and down a flight of stairs ten times on a warm
> summer day. After you revive them, explain that this is how their
> characters feel any time they exert themselves. Enquire politely if they
> want to revise their choice of armour, by reducing it perhaps.

Unfortunately, this won't work with rollplayers -- they'll likely point
out that there's no such drawbacks in the rules, so their characters won't
be subject to the fatigue they themselves are after running up and down
those stairs.

BTW, another thing that can be used are the encumbrance rules -- carry too
much equipment and you get Stun damage. Too bad that SR body armors are
very light, else low-Strength characters could easily get fatigued just
from wearing armor.

> Also, helmets - especially security types - are noticeable. How many
> people on the street walk around wearing them? Many shops and garages,
> in Britain at least, demand that motorcyclists remove their helmets
> before entering (full face helmets worn inappropriately being associated
> with armed robbers). Give them grief based on that.

The only helmets you could conceivably wear in public without attracting
attention are those similar to the French kepi-insert of 1915, and even
then you have to wear another hat over the top of it. Wearing a motorcycle
helmet can, as you said, lead to runners being confused for robbers at
worst, and being thought of as slightly weird at best, and a military
helmet is out of the question unless you like being shot at, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Turn into nothing less than nothing new.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:53:56 +0100
Mike (Leszek Karlik) said on 7:19/15 Oct 97...

> Yes, of course, like when you're pillaging the conquered city, but
> what I meant is that it is possible to sleep in armor etc. After all,
> when you were deep in the enemy territory, it was better to be safe
> then sorry, :>

If you select a good place to sleep and post guards, you should notice
them in time to get your kit on. If you don't do either, you deserve
whatever you get, IMO...

Remember that medieval battles were usually that -- battles. Not lots of
small skirmishes scattered all over the countryside, unlike many battles
today. Armies back then moved until they ran into each other, and when
they did, they had a battle on a convenient piece of land. Not to mention
that night-fighting was almost unheard of, because it's very hard to spot
the enemy without modern (late 20th century) night vision equipment.

What I'm trying to say is that medieval soldiers most likely took off
their armor when they didn't immediately need it, just like soldiers today
remove their packs and webbing when they're just sitting around away from
the enemy.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Turn into nothing less than nothing new.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:53:55 +0100
David Thompson said on 19:13/14 Oct 97...

> Sure, but if you start shooting at them while they are running up the
> stairs they will
> a) Go Faster and
> b) Not give a damn how hot the "armor" makes them feel.

That's only when you shoot at them.

> I somehow think all these characters that run around wearing all kinds of
> armor are used to it, and know that it could save their lives. That isn't
> unrealistic. You put me in a situation where my options are comfort or
> safety, and its safety.

I've said this before: studies during the Korean War showed that soldiers
wearing body armor complained about its weight and heat when there was
nothing to do, while those who encountered the enemy while wearing it
didn't complain nearly as much. IMHO shadowrunners will have the same
problem: if they sit or walk around all day wearing body armor, they'll
soon get tired of it, but as soon as they get into a firefight they won't
remember it's there (until the adrenalin wears off, probably).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:53:55 +0100
Paul J. Adam said on 22:58/14 Oct 97...

> >Yes,I assume any SR helemt will be fullcoverage, since suits that
> >include helmets can all be environmentally sealed for chem war.
>
> Don't need a full-face helmet for that: helmet off, mask on, hood up,
> helmet back on. Qualification time from warning to "mask on" is nine
> seconds in the British Army, you could do it in six if you tried.

OTOH, SRII claims that full suit heavy armor can be easily sealed against
chemical attacks, and the security armors offer NBC protection as an
option. Since there is no mention of having to wear a separate gas mask,
it's safe to assume the helmet forms an integral part of the suit when
it has been NBC-proofed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Turn into nothing less than nothing new.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:28:21 +0100
And verily, did Paul J. Adam hastily scribble thusly...
|
|In article <19971014170944.424.qmail@*******.com>, Mon goose
|<landsquid@*******.COM> writes
|>Yes,I assume any SR helemt will be fullcoverage, since suits that
|>include helmets can all be environmentally sealed for chem war.
|
|Don't need a full-face helmet for that: helmet off, mask on, hood up,
|helmet back on. Qualification time from warning to "mask on" is nine
|seconds in the British Army, you could do it in six if you tried.

Not yet...
But with a little practice I could do it...
(BTW, isn't is helmet off <between the knees>, mask on, hood on?)

|You _certainly_ wouldn't want to live in a respirator all the time you
|had your helmet on. The British S10 is the best in the world, and it
|gets grim after half an hour on a warm day, or as soon as you st5art
|exerting yourself.

I'll bet... And it sounds like it's a real pain learning to eat in a
contaminated environment....

And as for other.... bodily functions...
That DKP1 & 2 gets everywhere....

:)


Chemical weapons don't kill soldiers, they force the
|enemy to mask and suit up and degrade efficiency. Tasks that should take
|one hour take four or five, when you're trying to repair an engine or a
|rifle or a radio in respirator and butyl rubber gloves (and worrying
|about the fact that oil degrades the protection of your NBC suit).

Something we won't have a chance to try...
(They only issue the boots and gloves when your mobilised these days...)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 18
From: David Mezerette <mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:51:13 +0100
>> And not many mediaeval soldiers wore armour, literally, "all the
>> time": though they did live in it for a lot longer than your typical
>> SCA member while campaigning, like modern soldiers with web gear and
>> rucksacks you get the extra gear off any time it's not going to be
>> needed for your own comfort and convenience.
>
>Yes, of course, like when you're pillaging the conquered city, but
>what I meant is that it is possible to sleep in armor etc. After all,
>when you were deep in the enemy territory, it was better to be safe
>then sorry, :>
>
can someone tell me how does one wearing a full plate to get up in the
morning?i know medfan characters who would be very happy. The point in most
medieval battles was indeed to make the oponent fall down his horse and then
capture him as he was as clumsy as a tortoise on its back (not to kill him),
cause u could ask for a ransom ...
and anyway fight was forbidden at night according to many chevalry codes, as
well as during winters, and sundays, and many other days, so what's the
point to sleep w/ an armour?

ChYlD
mezeretted@*****.u-nancy.fr
Message no. 19
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:17:22 GMT
Paul J. Adam writes
>
> Also, helmets - especially security types - are noticeable.
lots snipped.
>
> A more common combination for us is a Secure Ultra-Vest under a lined
> coat:
Also popular idea here, form fit 3 is the other thing folks tend to
like, again for the very high concealability.

> the coat's assistance in concealing weapons is usually more than
> worth the slight loss in protection compared to an armoured jacket,
Careful weapon choice gives conceal 6, add in that 50% and a
concealable holster, oh do i like conceal 11's :)

Which is the same reason that i rate 'masking' so highly in magical
terms, a bit of common sense and you can get a couple of knives a
heavy pistol and 6/4(5 vs melee) armour and the ability to cast
spells into somewhere while looking like 'Joe Bloggs' with his long
coat on to keep out 2058 Seattle's acid rain :), usually enough to
avoid notice off most and give you long enough to eat dirt if an
ambush comes your way.

> and
> it seems less likely to overheat the wearer. Helmets aren't worn unless
> it's a planned, all-out, assault rifles and grenades type of run:
1 thing i like about the abstractness of SR is when you take sense /
roleplaying like this you don't get what happens with more realistic
systems, PC's dying just because the random 'where did that bullet
go' dice came up 'head'. You can survive without while for the 'were
going to get shot for being there looking like the military is just
going to make them more scared' runs putting on a helmet does provide
more protection in SR and if there is one thing about SR's dice
system its that priority one is get the TN below 6, number 2 is
generate enough dice that you can theoretically get enough successes,
and for number one that +1 for the helmet can be a life saver if hes
got an AK98 firing explosive.

> forearm guards are variable. Some swear by them and wear them almost all
> the time, others swear at them and don't use them.
>
Again my characters tend to wear them, 0.2 Kg isn't much they seem
like higher tech lower weight sports style forearm protectors so
although not a first choice for comform in a world where getting
jumped by a guy with a knife is a real risk to runners having
something that allows you to out your arm in the way in your
first reflex without losing it sound well worth it.

Mark
Message no. 20
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:05:57 +0100
In article <3.0.32.19971014191305.00705cd0@********.mail.yale.edu>,
David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU> writes
>At 07:20 PM 10/14/97 +0100, paul@********.demon.co.uk wrote:
>>Now have them run up and down a flight of stairs ten times on a warm
>>summer day. After you revive them, explain that this is how their
>>characters feel any time they exert themselves. Enquire politely if they
>>want to revise their choice of armour, by reducing it perhaps.
>
>Sure, but if you start shooting at them while they are running up the
>stairs they will
>a) Go Faster and
>b) Not give a damn how hot the "armor" makes them feel.

Fine: but how about the twenty or twenty-five days a month when they're
_not_ being shot at, nor in any serious danger of being shot at? Are
they such masochists that they live their whole lives in this
uncomfortable state?

>I somehow think all these characters that run around wearing all kinds of
>armor are used to it, and know that it could save their lives. That isn't
>unrealistic. You put me in a situation where my options are comfort or
>safety, and its safety. (And, BTW, I just ran up about 15+ flights in a
>jacket and flannel and full backpack on a warmish day for no good reason,
>and it was hot and miserable and tiring. But, it was easily done, and that
>was just because I felt like it. No lead motivation.)

Again: would you do that all day every day even when it wasn't likely to
be necessary?

Going on a run you carry and wear what you must. So the rifle makes your
arms tired, the web gear for the ammo and your medkit and chemsuit
weighs heavy on your shoulders and hips, the armour is hot and
uncomfortable, the helmet makes your neck hurt. Big deal. (Memories of a
live-fire exercise at Sennybridge: webbing full of magazines of 7.62mm,
INIBA vest zipped shut, helmet and rifle, all on a balmy, humid and
windless July day. Not fun to be wearing all that, but listening to the
ricochets I would have given up neither armour nor helmet, and I shot
off most of the ammo)

Living your day-to-day life you leave the form-fit and the helmet and
the forearm guards off, and just wear the jacket or an Ultra-Vest: for
the same reason that you don't carry the Ares Alpha down to the
convenience store, but maybe just pack a pistol in a concealed holster
"just in case". Comfort, low profile, and a desire not to alarm the
people around you into calling the cops.

Your characters _do_ have lives when they're not running, don't they? :)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 21
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:42:49 +0100
In article <1685.199710151028@****.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>, Spike
<u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> writes
>And verily, did Paul J. Adam hastily scribble thusly...
>|Don't need a full-face helmet for that: helmet off, mask on, hood up,
>|helmet back on. Qualification time from warning to "mask on" is nine
>|seconds in the British Army, you could do it in six if you tried.
>
>Not yet...
>But with a little practice I could do it...
>(BTW, isn't is helmet off <between the knees>, mask on, hood on?)
>
>|You _certainly_ wouldn't want to live in a respirator all the time you
>|had your helmet on. The British S10 is the best in the world, and it
>|gets grim after half an hour on a warm day, or as soon as you st5art
>|exerting yourself.
>
>I'll bet... And it sounds like it's a real pain learning to eat in a
>contaminated environment....
>
>And as for other.... bodily functions...
>That DKP1 & 2 gets everywhere....
>
>:)
You've been paying attention in your NBC classes, haven't you, Private
Halliwell? :)

>Chemical weapons don't kill soldiers, they force the
>|enemy to mask and suit up and degrade efficiency. Tasks that should take
>|one hour take four or five, when you're trying to repair an engine or a
>|rifle or a radio in respirator and butyl rubber gloves (and worrying
>|about the fact that oil degrades the protection of your NBC suit).
>
>Something we won't have a chance to try...
>(They only issue the boots and gloves when your mobilised these days...)

Yeah, I noticed that too. It's only seven years ago you got the lot...
(life expired in our case, but perfectly adequate for training). Guess
it's because we're now stocking to support an expeditionary force in
(say) the Gulf, instead of the entire British armed forces in NORTHAG...


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 22
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:49:42 -0400
At 01:05 AM 10/15/97 +0100, paul@********.demon.co.uk wrote:


>Fine: but how about the twenty or twenty-five days a month when they're
>_not_ being shot at, nor in any serious danger of being shot at? Are
>they such masochists that they live their whole lives in this
>uncomfortable state?

This all depends on many more details than we have here. Where do they
live, what is their background, etc. If they all have high lifestyles and
hang out in posh restaurants, then it is ridiculous for them to even
consider more armor than a jacket or long coat. If, however, they slum in
the barrens, and never know when some troll motorcycle gang is going to
come along and pick a fight, I wouldn't question the habit of wearing
layered armor whenever going out. But basically, I agree that the armor
should come off, with all the gear, in many situations, but often PLAYERS
get the feeling that if they are sitting at the table and the GM has his
dice within reach, they had better put armor on before they go to the
Stuffer Shack. I don't know about the rest of you, but that was my first
shadowrun! (Sure, that may not be perfectly realistic from a roleplaying
standpoint, but OTOH I think many of these charactes would feel naked
without at least some armor and a gun with them when they are outside. Bad
stuff falls in runners laps, and that's not even counting the cows from
space.)

>> (And, BTW, I just ran up about 15+ flights in a
>>jacket and flannel and full backpack on a warmish day for no good reason,
>>and it was hot and miserable and tiring. But, it was easily done, and that
>>was just because I felt like it. No lead motivation.)
>
>Again: would you do that all day every day even when it wasn't likely to
>be necessary?

Hell no, I took the elevator today! :)

>
>Living your day-to-day life you leave the form-fit and the helmet and
>the forearm guards off, and just wear the jacket or an Ultra-Vest: for
>the same reason that you don't carry the Ares Alpha down to the
>convenience store, but maybe just pack a pistol in a concealed holster
>"just in case". Comfort, low profile, and a desire not to alarm the
>people around you into calling the cops.

I don't think we disagree, I just thought you were saying that it is
unrealistic to have layered armor, helmets, etc, but you mean to have that
stuff all the time. Fine, agreed, done.

>Your characters _do_ have lives when they're not running, don't they? :)

I don't understand, what do you mean? :)

--DT
Message no. 23
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Layered Armor
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:31:59 +0100
|You've been paying attention in your NBC classes, haven't you, Private
|Halliwell? :)

Ahem... Private?
Excueeze me?

Signalman, actually....
:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

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