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Message no. 1
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Learning and Knowing
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1993 16:40:38 -0600
Simsense just records sensory impressions, like sight, sound, smell, touch,
and taste. Think of it as VCR+++ the intelligence of the person recorded has
little to know direct impact on the end product.

Knwledge and skills, are on skillchips, but they do not bestow true comprehension.

(comprehension). The top scientists in Shadowrun may use skillchips for
knowledge, but theories can only be formed from the mind.


J Roberson
Message no. 2
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1993 20:37:12 -0500
On Thu, 23 Dec 1993, The Deb Decker wrote:

> Simsense just records sensory impressions, like sight, sound, smell, touch,
> and taste.

THis is exactly what i meant--if your are simsense listen/experiencing
the poem of an author then there is no discussion as to the meaning or
feelings that should be evoked - rather the listen/experiencer knows what
was meant by the author because you feel the meaning as well as hear it,
some of the same could be said for a mathmatics or physics lesson

i am not saying that there would be no skillchips involved rather maybe a
combination in an attempt to force knowledge AND understanding into a
young persons mind

Think of it as VCR+++ the intelligence of the person recorded has
> little to know direct impact on the end product.

except that a persons intelligence governs their reactions up to the
primal fight/fight point. which is different for all of us.

>
> Knwledge and skills, are on skillchips, but they do not bestow true comprehension.

right. see above
---------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 3
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1993 20:05:40 -0600
On Thu, 23 Dec 1993, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

> THis is exactly what i meant--if your are simsense listen/experiencing
> the poem of an author then there is no discussion as to the meaning or
> feelings that should be evoked - rather the listen/experiencer knows what
> was meant by the author because you feel the meaning as well as hear it,
> some of the same could be said for a mathmatics or physics lesson

Buh? I can't see how simsese can bestow that kind of personal detail.
Sure, you can get the poem, you can set the mood, but to bestrow
subconscious meaning and unvoices inturrpretations and such, I cannot see

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
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Message no. 4
From: Phaeros Lostchilde <shilberg@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1993 21:46:41 -0600
How about Education BTLs or 2XS chips?
Scary. Getting high on school.

-------------
Steve Hilberg
Mudder and Shadowrun Player Extraordinaire!
See me on Armageddon (studsys.mscs.mu.edu 4444)
Or Mail me at shilberg@********.uni.uiuc.edu
Message no. 5
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1993 19:36:04 -0500
On Thu, 23 Dec 1993, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> Buh? I can't see how simsese can bestow that kind of personal detail.
> Sure, you can get the poem, you can set the mood, but to bestrow
> subconscious meaning and unvoices inturrpretations and such, I cannot see
>
but what you do get is the feeling and attitude of the person making the
recording, not some watered down guess at what the author ment [this
assumes the author would want to record his own works-for a clear
translation into simsense]
----------------------------------------GRANITE

* HAPPY CHRISTMAS AND A MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EVERYONE *
Message no. 6
From: Jeremy Roberson <rjr96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1993 21:22:34 +0100
>but what you do get is the feeling and attitude of the person making the
>recording, not some watered down guess at what the author meant [this
>assumes the author would want to record his own works-for a clear
>translation into simsense].

Well, it DOES say that emotions can be recorded, but I still don't think true
understanding would be transferrable. Besides, what would happen if you played
a latter-day Einstein's lecture notes back into a savant or and idiot, or
someone who simply didn't have the ability to process the information. If
in
the future they modify the brasin Clockwork Orange-style, or just with Frontal
Lobotomies, then would certain thoughts and feelings simply not be
acknowledged by the player mind?

J Roberson
Message no. 7
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1993 22:31:21 -0500
On Sat, 25 Dec 1993, Jeremy Roberson wrote:

> >but what you do get is the feeling and attitude of the person making the
......> >translation into simsense].
>
> Well, it DOES say that emotions can be recorded, but I still don't think true
> understanding would be transferrable.

Well now i didn't say that only simsense would be used in classrooms..but
it sure would raise the effectiveness of "certain" lessons. as an example
you are wearing your simsense instructional rig and the instructor just
plugged in the chip on frog dissection..now you go through the entire
dissection and get to experience it without 1] actually having to kill a
frog [more than one anyway] 2] without not being able to find certain
organs [like the heart] 3] without actually having to get messy. But it
all seemed as real as the "real thing".
also i would imagine that there are possibly some learnsoft type chips
around somewhere that could input info into the brain where understanding
could be learned via something akin to simsense.

Besides, what would happen if you played
> a latter-day Einstein's lecture notes back into a savant or and idiot, or
> someone who simply didn't have the ability to process the information. then would
certain thoughts and feelings simply not be
> acknowledged by the player mind?
>
in the cases discribed i would say that if a simsense device tried to
feed sensory or emotional information into a brain "truely" unable to
process such info...i would say that one of two situations would arise:
1] such info would simply be lost to the impaired user
2] the impaired user would go into sensory overload - which could cause:
a] death
b] shock
c] addiction
----------------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 8
From: Joseph Cotton <Joseph.Cotton@*******.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 09:16:20 EST
On Sun, 26 Dec 1993, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

>
> Well now i didn't say that only simsense would be used in classrooms..but
> it sure would raise the effectiveness of "certain" lessons. as an example
> you are wearing your simsense instructional rig and the instructor just
> plugged in the chip on frog dissection..now you go through the entire
> dissection and get to experience it without 1] actually having to kill a
> frog [more than one anyway] 2] without not being able to find certain
> organs [like the heart] 3] without actually having to get messy. But it
> all seemed as real as the "real thing".

This is about the best example of "educational simsense" I've seen.
By the same token, an instructor could plug in a chip of a "guest lecturer"
at much less expense than actually paying for someone to come to the
school.

But I don't agree with your other posts about gaining a better understanding
of the hard sciences via simsense lectures. I get the impression you
have a distinctly different idea of what simsense/skillchips do for you
than the one I have. To my mind, slotting a simsense lecture chip would
be like watching a lecture on tape, except you'd be a lot more focused.
But you wouldn't get any more out of that recording than you would have
gotten from being there.

The idea of "knowing what the author _really_ meant" by experiencing
simsense of the author reading his own prose or poetry is one I'm more
amiable to, however. But even then, what you'd get is more of what
emotions the work inspired in the author, not (IMHO) what sort of
allegory he was trying to make. Unless they make "annotated" simsense!

Joe Cotton
Message no. 9
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 10:23:05 -0500
On Mon, 27 Dec 1993, Joseph Cotton wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Dec 1993, C. Paul Douglas wrote:
>
> >
...... But it
> > all seemed as real as the "real thing".
>
> This is about the best example of "educational simsense" I've seen.
> By the same token, an instructor could plug in a chip of a "guest lecturer"
> at much less expense than actually paying for someone to come to the
> school.
>
sometimes it takes a while for me to put into words the meaning i want to
get across

I get the impression you
> have a distinctly different idea of what simsense/skillchips do for you
> than the one I have. To my mind, slotting a simsense lecture chip would
> be like watching a lecture on tape, except you'd be a lot more focused.
> But you wouldn't get any more out of that recording than you would have
> gotten from being there.

except the lecturers emotional state would be comunicated directly to you
as well as getting to live the lecture. I doubt that "lectures" recorded
on simsense chips would be the dude standing behind a lecturn speakind in
monotone kind of thing..instead say the lecture is on the safety of
nuclear fission plants..so instead of spouting facts and figures in an
auditorium..the lecturer goes on a tour and shows the audience via his
own eyes and experience the safety of fission plants. more creativity
would be called for than is now practiced in many texts and instructors.
>
> The idea of "knowing what the author _really_ meant" by experiencing
> simsense of the author reading his own prose or poetry is one I'm more
> amiable to, however. But even then, what you'd get is more of what
> emotions the work inspired in the author, not (IMHO) what sort of
> allegory he was trying to make. Unless they make "annotated" simsense!
>
right you would get the emotional content instead of the mechanical aspects.
-----------------------GRANITE
Message no. 10
From: Joseph Cotton <Joseph.Cotton@*******.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 11:27:46 EST
On Mon, 27 Dec 1993, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Dec 1993, Joseph Cotton wrote:
>
> > But you wouldn't get any more out of that recording than you would have
> > gotten from being there.
>
> except the lecturers emotional state would be comunicated directly to you
> as well as getting to live the lecture. I doubt that "lectures" recorded
> on simsense chips would be the dude standing behind a lecturn speakind in
> monotone kind of thing..instead say the lecture is on the safety of
> nuclear fission plants..so instead of spouting facts and figures in an
> auditorium..the lecturer goes on a tour and shows the audience via his
> own eyes and experience the safety of fission plants. more creativity
> would be called for than is now practiced in many texts and instructors.

Ah. We are _definately_ talking about two different things. When I say
"simsense lecture" I am thinking of a chip recorded from a *member of the
audience's* POV - as presented in ShadowBeat; *not* a chip that gives
you the experience of delivering a lecture. Although, for your example,
the second method would probably provide the better learning experience.
However, for most classroom subjects - math, chemistry, history, computer
programming - I feel the first method would be the best.

But I still don't agree with your "better understanding" position. In
the case of your nuclear engineer, you might feel his confidence in the
safety precautions taken, but I don't know that those feelings would
last beyond the period the chip was slotted, and I certainly don't
agree that you would come away with any deeper knowledge of the subject
than you would have gotten from reading a textbook.

Joe Cotton
Message no. 11
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@********.CLARK.NET>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 11:32:40 -0500
On Mon, 27 Dec 1993, Joseph Cotton wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Dec 1993, C. Paul Douglas wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 27 Dec 1993, Joseph Cotton wrote:
>
> Ah. We are _definately_ talking about two different things. When I say
> "simsense lecture" I am thinking of a chip recorded from a *member of the
> audience's* POV - as presented in ShadowBeat;

AH now i see said the blind man - i do not as yet have that particular
source book
read the paragraph on simsense in the 2nd edithion core rules on page 244
and you will see where my postulations come from.
>
> But I still don't agree with your "better understanding" position. In
> the case of your nuclear engineer, you might feel his confidence in the
> safety precautions taken, but I don't know that those feelings would
> last beyond the period the chip was slotted, and I certainly don't
> agree that you would come away with any deeper knowledge of the subject
> than you would have gotten from reading a textbook.

i would think that a person should be able to remember beyond the chip
being slotted the experience of simsense [otherwise there sure wouldn't
be simsense groupies] and the understanding garnered would afterall be
determined by the users inate intelligence, augmented or natural.
---------------------GRANITE
Message no. 12
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 11:55:28 -0600
On Fri, 24 Dec 1993, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

> but what you do get is the feeling and attitude of the person making the
> recording, not some watered down guess at what the author ment [this
> assumes the author would want to record his own works-for a clear
> translation into simsense]

It also assumes that a simchip can record more than 5-senses images, that
it can record emotions and subconscious stuff.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
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Message no. 13
From: Joseph Cotton <Joseph.Cotton@*******.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 08:48:14 EST
On Mon, 27 Dec 1993, C. Paul Douglas wrote:

>
> i would think that a person should be able to remember beyond the chip
> being slotted the experience of simsense [otherwise there sure wouldn't
> be simsense groupies]

Yes, much the same way someone would remember how great they felt when
they used (insert favorite mind-altering substance here). You would
remember how it felt - but *not necessarily still have those feelings.*
That's why BLT (M-A S) users always want another "hit" - so they can
recapture those feelings.

> and the understanding garnered would afterall be
> determined by the users inate intelligence, augmented or natural.

Well, yes, but isn't that what I said? I understood your original position
to be that if, say for example, a math genius was wired to record a lecture
he attended on physics, someone using that chip later would learn more
than he would if that chip had been recorded by an average student, just
one that paid close attention. I disagree with that statement. But if
that wasn't the statement you were making, then I guess it don't matter. :)

Joe Cotton
- who has two friends who will argue for half an hour before realising
they're both taking the same position, just from different directions.
Message no. 14
From: Joseph Cotton <Joseph.Cotton@*******.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 08:55:52 EST
On Mon, 27 Dec 1993, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

>
> It also assumes that a simchip can record more than 5-senses images, that
> it can record emotions and subconscious stuff.
>

A pretty good assumption, considering that the section on simsense in
ShadowBeat talks about how prized both performers and technicians are
who can "give good feel," i.e., put a lot of emotion thru the chip.
Also, 2XS and Striper Assassin both talk about chips that convey an
enormous amount of confidence onto their users.

"Subconscious stuff" I'm not so sure about, but then, I'm also not
sure what exactly you're thinking of here.

Joe Cotton
Message no. 15
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1993 10:15:38 -0600
On Tue, 28 Dec 1993, Joseph Cotton wrote:

> "Subconscious stuff" I'm not so sure about, but then, I'm also not
> sure what exactly you're thinking of here.

Poetry is more than just words (to use the example we are discussion).
It also contains meaning that the author cannot quantify because they are
so deeply rooted in their psyche that they cannot be seen. Can simchips
convey this? I certainly HOPE not, otherwise we get into the real of
being able to record the mind, which is a trap that I am hoping SR never
falls into.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
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Message no. 16
From: Joseph Cotton <Joseph.Cotton@*******.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Learning and Knowing
Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1993 08:38:39 EST
On Tue, 28 Dec 1993, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

>
> Poetry is more than just words (to use the example we are discussion).
> It also contains meaning that the author cannot quantify...

No, I agree, I don't believe simsense can capture those qualities,
either. At most, it would capture (IMO) the emotion the poetry evoked
in the author/reader.

I spent a lot of time thinking about simsense once, now that hardly
anyone's around I won't feel bad about boring the rest of you. :)
Most SR stuff I've seen talks as though simsense has completely re-
placed film as mass entertainment, except for TV (or tri-vid, or
what have you). But I feel like simsense is actually only able to
be used in a fairly limited type of story. Think about it: If your
audience feels (experiences) whatever the hero feels, how are you
going to handle action/adventure movies? I mean, in most of those
I've seen, especially lately, the hero gets the sh*t kicked out of
him for 3/4s of the film, then triumphs over all adversity in the
end. How many films (chips) are you gonna want where the hero is
untouchable/invulnerable all the way though? Yeah, there's gonna
be a market for those, but I don't think the market for the other
type is going to disappear.

Romance is going to be another natural for simsense, but there won't
be anything like R-rated chips. They'll be G, PG (ones with nudity),
and then straight to XXX. You can't fake sex on simsense, either.
The actors either jam the hell outta each other or they don't.
I don't think the R-rated movie market's going to disappear, either.

Well, enough babble. I hope this spurs some fresh discussion.

Joe Cotton

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