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Message no. 1
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Leonization
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 11:46:47 -0700
I have a feeling this question has already been asked and answered
sometime in this lists history, but since I wasn't around then...

In Shadowtech, in the description of the Leonization genetic process, it
says specifically, about halfway through, that Leonization costs no
essence or body index. But then, down on the bottom, where the cost is
listed, is says that it costs .10 essence for every session. So which is
right? No other genetic process affects essence.

Thanks,
Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 2
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Leonization
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 18:00:05 -0700
I don't suppose anybody has figured out whether or not the Leonization
genetic process costs any essence have they?

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 3
From: Susan Sherman <SSHERMAN@****.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 21:45:00 -0500
What's Leonization? I'm an ignorant newbie, what else can I do besides ask
questions? :).

SilverFire

Susan Sherman
ssherman@****.stevens-tech.edu
Message no. 4
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 21:50:19 -0500
Growing younger by using drugs, surgery, magick, etc.
Tom Craig
Message no. 5
From: "D.O.A. SECURITY" <MKNABUSCH@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 23:58:05 -0500
I assume that the cost given for the Leonization
process is a one time cost that they pay at the
beginning. The description states that it will have
to be upkept (ie. return visits or you lose that
glossy sheen, rosy cheeks, etc.). The upkeep or
return visits don't cost any essence.
Michael
aka Harlequin
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 15:43:14 +0100
> I don't suppose anybody has figured out whether or not the Leonization
> genetic process costs any essence have they?

I would rule (in my game, at least), that it doesn't cost any Essence. I
think somebody didn't read the text of the leonization thing too well and
thought "hey, we can make that cost Essence to give it a 'down' side!"

Gurth@***.nl | GEEK CODE (v2.1): GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au
21st century digital boy | !a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K-
I don't know how to live | W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@
But I got a lot of toys | D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 15:47:14 +0100
> What's Leonization? I'm an ignorant newbie, what else can I do besides ask
> questions? :)

It's in Shadowtech, some sort of treatment that restores you bodily age
to early 20s, so if you're 80 years old and pay 2.8 million nuyen (2M for
the treatment plus .1M per "maintenance session," eight times in four
years), you get to be 20 again! There's some problems with it, of course.

Oh, and we all were new to this game and list at some point :)

Gurth@***.nl | GEEK CODE (v2.1): GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au
21st century digital boy | !a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K-
I don't know how to live | W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@
But I got a lot of toys | D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 8
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 10:17:50 -0500
Check page 76 in Shadowtech, Leonization costs essence.
Tom Craig
Message no. 9
From: Chris McKinnon <cmckinno@********.CA>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 16:58:21 -0400
On Sun, 4 Dec 1994, Gurth wrote:

> > I don't suppose anybody has figured out whether or not the Leonization
> > genetic process costs any essence have they?
>
> I would rule (in my game, at least), that it doesn't cost any Essence. I
> think somebody didn't read the text of the leonization thing too well and
> thought "hey, we can make that cost Essence to give it a 'down' side!"
>

According to the rules, the process does cost Essence. I don't know if
the reasoning exists, but it is a fact that during replication, or
processes like this genetic cleansing, small errors will creep in. The
essence cost, I think, helps to reflect this problem.

=============================================================================
Enigma = "Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun..."
Chris McKinnon = - Ash, Army of Darkness
cmckinno@********.ca =
Message no. 10
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 15:14:28 -0700
On Sat, 3 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> Growing younger by using drugs, surgery, magick, etc.
>
Wrong!! It is the genetic process of becoming younger, as described in
Shadowtech. It has NOTHING to do with drugs, surgery, or magic. Quite
simply, the subject is placed in a genetic bath for four months, while
his/her genetic code is being rewritten and healed.

BTW, I still would like to know if it costs essence or not.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 11
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 15:28:55 -0700
On Sun, 4 Dec 1994, Chris McKinnon wrote:
>
> According to the rules, the process does cost Essence. I don't know if
> the reasoning exists, but it is a fact that during replication, or
> processes like this genetic cleansing, small errors will creep in. The
> essence cost, I think, helps to reflect this problem.
>
Two things. First, the rules for Leonization contradicts itself.
Halfway through the description, it says no essence or body index is
lost. Then, on the bottom of the page, with the cost, it says that .10
essence is lost. I've been confused about this ever since Shadowtech
came out, and now I'm really hoping for an answer.

Second, the errors inherent to genetic replication is already included
into the process; you can only undergo the process a number of times
equal to the average of your Willpower and Body stats. Go over that
number, you die a horrible agonizing death.

Do you think we could get a ruling direct from the Dark Lord on High? It
would seem that this might be something for FASA to clear up.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 12
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 18:11:58 EST
The Whistler writes:

> On Sat, 3 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:
>
> > Growing younger by using drugs, surgery, magick, etc.
> >
> Wrong!! It is the genetic process of becoming younger, as
described in
> Shadowtech. It has NOTHING to do with drugs, surgery, or magic.

Chummer, calm down!!! He might have made a minor mistake. These
things happen when you are working from memory. Plus, this
process happens today. Not perfect, of course, but it does. Plastic
surgery anyone? And what of Lazuras pits. Though it was featured in
Batman: The Animated Series, some legends in my family tell of
these mythic areas. This is all Leonization. I do not remember
correctly, but I have heard Leonization batted around in certain
genetic circles. It is a term that SR uses for the genetic process. So
do not go blowing Thomas's head off because of a technicality of
terms.

> BTW, I still would like to know if it costs essence or not.
>
I believe it does. I too am unsure of the reasoning, but would guess
that the essance loss is do to all of the procedures that need to be
done prior the immersion. Certain drugs, IVs, resperators, EEG plugs,
etc. all combined could cause the loss. Plus, even if you do get 60
years younger, some loose tissue may remain. Fixing this would
require plastic surgery, which I think only counts as minor invasive,
thus waranting the .1 loss.

-Shadowdancer-
(I really have to fix my sig. files :-) )
> Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
>
Message no. 13
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 18:43:59 -0800
Re: Text says no Essence cost, bottom line says there is a cost

I always saw this in this way: the text is the game-world's "real" advertisement
for the process, and they'll tell you it's great, costs no Essence, etc, much
like they don't bother to mention that your cyber-heart or whatever has a chance
of melting in the heart of battle (I'm using a hypothetical example here, since
I don't have the book in front of me.) The "bottom line", though, is what's
really real; so, you go along, getting youthened, thinking everything's great,
but little do you know that your Essence is slowly being sapped away.....

Sorta like the text is what the PC knows, and the bottom line is the game
mechanics.

Just MHO.

-E
Message no. 14
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 23:30:39 -0500
I took no offence at what the Whistler stated, but what I stated is actual.
As Shadowdancer stated there are drugs and surgery performed to eliminate
loose tissue. What is true is some drugs cause genetic alterations
(carcinogens, mutagens, etc.) and magick can cause genetic alterations
(transformation spells, shapeshifting, etc.) and surgery (cyberware, bioware,
plastic surgery, etc.) (although surgery isn't likely to keep you alive
longer) makes you look younger. Magick and certain drugs could concievably
make you younger. Ponce De Leon was looking for the Fountain of Youth, which
is MAGICK. He never found it. As for the drugs, well, I do not know which
drugs would cause actual youth. (And I studied Chemistry as a Major for two
and a half years.) Well, I thank Shadowdancer for jumping in on my side; but
I can do things for myself.
Later,
Tom Craig
aka
Halmir Palantiri
Magus
Message no. 15
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 00:43:36 -0500
On Sat, 3 Dec 1994, Erik S Jameson wrote:

> I don't suppose anybody has figured out whether or not the Leonization
> genetic process costs any essence have they?

Maybe because it eventually messes your body up? FASA has this
sort of "everything that messes you up costs essence" mentality. Just
look at their obnoxious drug rules.

Marc
Message no. 16
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 00:45:14 -0500
On Sat, 3 Dec 1994, Susan Sherman wrote:

> What's Leonization? I'm an ignorant newbie, what else can I do besides ask
> questions? :).

Leonization is a genetic treatment that basically "turns back"
the proverbial clock. Makes ya young again, see. It can add something
like 80 years to your natural lifespan, but after that the genetic damage
basically kills you. And it's but-expensive. Go figure.
What can you do besides ask questions? Well, if you get the
chance, pick up Shadowtech. It is an excellent sourcebook with all sorts
of neat techno-toys for the body. New cyberware, bioware, genetic
treatments, drugs, chemicals...all sorts o' good stuff. Plus plenty of
source material about how cyberware works, how it's implanted, etc, etc,
etc.
But until then, questions are more than welcome. :)

Marc
Message no. 17
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 00:56:33 -0500
On Sat, 3 Dec 1994, D.O.A. SECURITY wrote:

> I assume that the cost given for the Leonization
> process is a one time cost that they pay at the
> beginning. The description states that it will have
> to be upkept (ie. return visits or you lose that
> glossy sheen, rosy cheeks, etc.). The upkeep or
> return visits don't cost any essence.

Well, my copy of Shadowtech gives costs for both the initial
treatment and the return visits (2 million for the first, 100,000 for
each one after that). Hey, does semiannual mean once every two years or
twice a year? I can never remember that stuff. I've had bi-monthly
magazines that came twice a month and bi-weekly reports that came once
every two weeks. What's up with that?!

Marc
Message no. 18
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 01:13:16 -0500
On Sun, 4 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> Ponce De Leon was looking for the Fountain of Youth, which
> is MAGICK.

And just how do you know this? Have you ever been there? Maybe
it's some horribly technological device left from a bygone age?
"Objection, your Honor! The statement is pure conjecture!"

Marc (aaaargh. I just quoted a >lawyer< eeeeeeeww.)
Message no. 19
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 07:45:21 -0500
If it's pure conjecture, Then the history books are wrong. (Holds up
seventeen different History Books) Plus, your Honor, Ponce De Leon was a
Catholic, and they believe in Magick. (Holds up same History Books.)
Tom Craig
Message no. 20
From: Chris Lubrecht <lubrecht@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 10:05:23 -0500
On Sun, 4 Dec 1994, Chris McKinnon wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Dec 1994, Gurth wrote:
>
> > > I don't suppose anybody has figured out whether or not the Leonization
> > > genetic process costs any essence have they?
> >
> > I would rule (in my game, at least), that it doesn't cost any Essence. I
> > think somebody didn't read the text of the leonization thing too well and
> > thought "hey, we can make that cost Essence to give it a 'down' side!"
> >
>
> According to the rules, the process does cost Essence. I don't know if
> the reasoning exists, but it is a fact that during replication, or
> processes like this genetic cleansing, small errors will creep in. The
> essence cost, I think, helps to reflect this problem

I think also, that you are fooling with big momma nature, and this could
also reflect why you lose essence. Lets think about this. Someone with
aonly a datajack, could live a very, very long time...provided they were
rich enough.

Nigel
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 18:43:28 +0100
> each one after that). Hey, does semiannual mean once every two years or
> twice a year? I can never remember that stuff. I've had bi-monthly

semi = half
bi = two

So, semi-annual = half-yearly = once per half year.
bi-weekly = two-weekly = twice per week.

Gurth@***.nl | GEEK CODE (v2.1): GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au
21st century digital boy | !a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K-
I don't know how to live | W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@
But I got a lot of toys | D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@***.NL>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 18:56:25 +0100
> I think also, that you are fooling with big momma nature, and this could
> also reflect why you lose essence. Lets think about this. Someone with
> aonly a datajack, could live a very, very long time...provided they were
> rich enough.

Nope. You can only do Leonization for a number of times up to your Body
Attribute. So, if you're a human and use lots of Karma yo get your body
up to 9, you could live for, say, 560 years (if you use the treatment ech
time your body reaches the physical age of 80).

Gurth@***.nl | GEEK CODE (v2.1): GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g P?(3) !au
21st century digital boy | !a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3 E? N++ K-
I don't know how to live | W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@
But I got a lot of toys | D+(++) B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 23
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 13:28:20 -0400
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> If it's pure conjecture, Then the history books are wrong.

Boy, wouldn't *that* be a first.

> Plus, your Honor, Ponce De Leon was a Catholic, and they believe in
> Magick.

So? Just because people *believe* it's magic doesn't make it
so. There are numerous examples of things that people *thought* were
magic, but just turned out to be some natural phenomenon that they didn't
understand. So my original point remains. I assume you've never been to
the Fountain of Youth. If such is the case, do not be so presumptuous as
to tell me what it is.

Marc (Devil's Advocate and Doubting Thomas all rolled into one.)
Message no. 24
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:26:01 -0500
Marc,
I hate to burst your bubble, but did you not know that nature is magick?
Life in and of itself is Magick, Magick is in ALL things. Well, I happen to
be a practicing Magick-User (I put the "k" on Magick to distinguish between
"Magic Tricks" and true Magic. A practice started by Aleister Crowley) I
think this may start a new Magick debate, but oh, well. Technology is
another form of Magick (Hence the term Techno-wizard.), same with Chemical
Reactions (I Majored in this for two and a half years.), same with
reproduction, etc., etc. So with this perspective in mind that is how I can
state "The Fountain of Youth is Magickal." and be truthful about it. Truth
and Reality are a matter of perspective. Fact is only certain truths and
realities that are agreed upon by all as having happened.
Tom Craig
Message no. 25
From: Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 13:45:00 +0600
>I hate to burst your bubble, but did you not know that nature is magick?
> Life in and of itself is Magick, Magick is in ALL things. Well, I happen to
>be a practicing Magick-User (I put the "k" on Magick to distinguish between
>"Magic Tricks" and true Magic. A practice started by Aleister Crowley) I
>think this may start a new Magick debate, but oh, well. Technology is
>another form of Magick (Hence the term Techno-wizard.), same with Chemical
>Reactions (I Majored in this for two and a half years.), same with
>reproduction, etc., etc. So with this perspective in mind that is how I can
>state "The Fountain of Youth is Magickal." and be truthful about it. Truth
>and Reality are a matter of perspective. Fact is only certain truths and
>realities that are agreed upon by all as having happened.
>Tom Craig


Wrong. Period. The end.
Message no. 26
From: Jason Larke <jlarke@**.ITD.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:55:21 -0500
>>>>> On Mon, 05 Dec 1994 14:26:01 EST, "Thomas W. Craig"
>>>>> <Craigtw1@***.COM> said: <substantially trimmed>

TWC> Marc, I hate to burst your bubble, but did you not know
TWC> that nature is magick? Life in and of itself is
TWC> Magick, Magick is in ALL things. Tom Craig

I have two problems with this as an argument:

1) It's unfalsifiable.

2) It has no content whatsoever.

I mean, if everything is magick, then saying that x is
magical is only saying that x exists. I could get the same
effect by saying that everything is neat, and it would be
much less controversial. :)

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jason Larke- jlarke@*****.edu- sysadmin, philosophy guy, and Rush fan |
| "I drink the blood of my enemies," Hawk said, and smiled his happy grin. |
|I don't speak for ITD-LSA, U-M, or the international communist conspiracy.|
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 27
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:58:37 -0500
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> Plus, your Honor, Ponce De Leon was a Catholic, and they believe in
> Magick.

Lots of people beleive in the theory we call "reality," too.

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "The Ogre philosopher Gnerdel beleived the purpose of life |
| was to live as high on the food chain as possible. |
| She refused to eat vegetarians, and preferred to live entirely |
| on creatures that preyed on sentient beings." |
| -Magic: The Gathering "Grey Ogre" |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 28
From: wadycki andrew m <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:03:44 -0600
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Jeff Norrell wrote:

> >I hate to burst your bubble, but did you not know that nature is magick?
> > Life in and of itself is Magick, Magick is in ALL things. Well, I happen to
> >be a practicing Magick-User (I put the "k" on Magick to distinguish
between
> >"Magic Tricks" and true Magic. A practice started by Aleister Crowley)
I
> >think this may start a new Magick debate, but oh, well. Technology is
> >another form of Magick (Hence the term Techno-wizard.), same with Chemical
> >Reactions (I Majored in this for two and a half years.), same with
> >reproduction, etc., etc. So with this perspective in mind that is how I can
> >state "The Fountain of Youth is Magickal." and be truthful about it.
Truth
> >and Reality are a matter of perspective. Fact is only certain truths and
> >realities that are agreed upon by all as having happened.
> >Tom Craig
>
>
> Wrong. Period. The end.
>
Such an open mind is truly impressive. Why is it wrong? Just saying it
is wrong isn't enough. At least when science says magic is wrong they
prove why and explain their reasoning. Lets hear yours.

-Andrew
Message no. 29
From: Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:56:52 +0600
When saying something exists, such as magic(k) or god, the proof rests
not with the disbeliever but with the believer. There is no concrete,
scientific proof to back the existence of magic.

As for the standard argument of, "There are things that Science can't
explain," my response is, "Just wait."
Message no. 30
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 13:06:42 -0800
On Sun, 4 Dec 1994, Eve Forward wrote:

> Sorta like the text is what the PC knows, and the bottom line is the game
> mechanics.

I agree with Eve.
"Sure it doesn't cost Essence. Sure, you can get Wired-3 ...
your neurophysiological index is fine."

Another tragic death on the operating table.
Say, he does have a Sony-Cray tactical computer. Always wanted
to de-engineer their target recognition chip ...

> Just MHO.

Heh.
> -E

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 31
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:16:53 -0500
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Gurth wrote:

> semi = half
> bi = two
>
> So, semi-annual = half-yearly = once per half year.
> bi-weekly = two-weekly = twice per week.

I wish it were that easy, but like I said, I've had things
contradict that rule. But if that is the case, it occurs to me that by
the rules, very few people (like, nobody who's not outrageously modified)
could survive Leonization. If you have to have check-ups every six
months for four years, that's 8 maintenance sessions. If the maintenance
sessions exceed the average of your Body and Willpower, you die a horrible,
agonizing death. ergo, everyone but a Troll with maximum natural Body
and Willpower will die before the treatment is complete. Methinks
something is amiss here.

Marc
Message no. 32
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 13:35:20 -0800
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> Marc,
> I hate to burst your bubble, but did you not know that nature is magick?
> Life in and of itself is Magick, Magick is in ALL things. Well, I happen to

I hate to burst your bubble, but these statements are so vague as
to have little information content (but low entropy as well ;-)

> think this may start a new Magick debate, but oh, well. Technology is
> another form of Magick (Hence the term Techno-wizard.), same with Chemical
> Reactions (I Majored in this for two and a half years.), same with
> reproduction, etc., etc. So with this perspective in mind that is how I can

Well, your definition-set of the adjective "Magic[k]al" is so
large as to render it devoid of meaning. But in particular, chemical
reactions are a result of electromagnetic interactions mediated by
photons occuring within the upper valence bands of the elements in
question. The corresponding shifts in energy, spin, and momentum alter
the properties of the reactants in a variety of theoretically predictable
ways.
I think more people would agree with this definition-set of
"Chemical Reactions".
On the other hand, you are free to reject the empirical viewpoint
of the universe and define your own standards. But I don't think many
people will be able to converse intelligibly with you. And the point of
language is communication, after all.

> state "The Fountain of Youth is Magickal." and be truthful about it. Truth
> and Reality are a matter of perspective. Fact is only certain truths and
> realities that are agreed upon by all as having happened.

The empiracal viewpoint of most scientists and engineers would
disagree with this. And they seem to have a lot more confirmation than
the non-empiracal viewpoint, although at a certain level of rationalism
this may be irrelevent. Still, the act of observation seems to find
things obeying certain universal principles.

> Tom Craig

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 33
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:28:38 -0500
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> Marc,
> I hate to burst your bubble, but did you not know that nature is magick?

Your point? You talk alot about perspective, but (no offense)
yours seems rather narrow. I put it to you that magic(k) is merely
science that we do not yet have the capacity to explain. You can no more
prove to me that nature is magick than I can prove to you that magick is
science, so this whole thing is pretty much pointless. Thus, my bubble
remains unburst. :)

> Life in and of itself is Magick, Magick is in ALL things. Well, I happen to
> be a practicing Magick-User (I put the "k" on Magick to distinguish between
> "Magic Tricks" and true Magic. A practice started by Aleister Crowley)

I am familiar with the works of Aleister Crowley. I have read
extensively on the subject, though I do not necessarily hold any of his
or the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn's views to be my own. Far from
it in fact.

> I think this may start a new Magick debate, but oh, well. Technology is
> another form of Magick (Hence the term Techno-wizard.), same with Chemical
> Reactions (I Majored in this for two and a half years.), same with
> reproduction, etc., etc.

Again, perhaps technology is not a form of magick, but vice
versa. But then again maybe not. But remember that the possibility
remains, and until proven otherwise, it will always remain.

> So with this perspective in mind that is how I can
> state "The Fountain of Youth is Magickal." and be truthful about it. Truth
> and Reality are a matter of perspective.

My point exactly. Your perspective just happens to be different
from mine.
The reason I am even carrying this debate out is to make you
realize one small thing. When you make a comment like "the Fountain of
Youth was magickal," it is your contention, and thus the burden of proof
lies upon you. I do not claim to know anything about the "true" nature
of the Fountain of Youth. I do not even claim that the Fountain of Youth
even existed, as there is insufficient evidence to do so. You, on the
other hand, claim many things. I only ask that you be able to back up
what you say.
My original post was just me being a smartass, but I get sick of
all of the crap that gets tossed around with nothing other than the
traditional lame-o "Magick is Life, Life is Magick" statement to back it
up. As a result, this discussion has progressed beyond the simple
Fountain of Youth thing. Perhaps that is where it should have stayed.

To those of you who could care less about this obnoxious
discussion, I sincerely apologize for the waste of your bandwidth.

Marc (still the Devil's Advocate, Doubting Thomas, and Voice of Reason)
Message no. 34
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:46:40 -0800
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> months for four years, that's 8 maintenance sessions. If the maintenance
> sessions exceed the average of your Body and Willpower, you die a horrible,
> agonizing death. ergo, everyone but a Troll with maximum natural Body
> and Willpower will die before the treatment is complete. Methinks
> something is amiss here.

I believe they are talking about number of treatments, not
maintainence. You can recieve the treatment AVG(Bod, Will) times and
within a particular treatment you need maintainance sessions to ensure
the treatment "sticks".

> Marc

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 35
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 18:16:52 -0500
Here's something for ye non-believers: What is LIFE? Many believe that life
is things that breathe, reproduce, have cell structures, etc. Who ARE we to
say what is alive? We do not determine what is life. The chair you sit on
could actually be alive; BUT we don't have the means to determine that.
There is no technological device that determines life. All we can do is
speculate. HOW did life begin? NOONE knows, that in and of itself is the
major argument behind Magick. What ARE we? We are a mass of Carbon,
Hydrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorus, Nitrogen, etc., etc. that somehow came together
and formed a lifeform. There is NO reason to say we actually exist; yet we
do. There has been experiments into how to create life from scratch; but To
date none have been successful. All that those experiments have done has
been to create new products, that are useful in the everyday world and the
laboratory. So in conclusion: Ball's back on your side of the court.
That's what you get when your form of Magick is neither shamanic nor hermetic
in orientation; and you majored in Chemistry for 2.5 years;
Tom Craig
aka
Halmir Palantiri
Magus Extraordinare
Message no. 36
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 18:58:11 EST
Tom's rant:

> Marc,
> I hate to burst your bubble, but did you not know that nature is
>magick?


<bandwidth saving delete>

Tom, why the hell bring this up again? We've gone through this
before and it is not time to do it yet. :-) The problem is, we have many
people who study/practice/use magick on this list. Every one knows
this(and if you did not, you do now). The problam comes when you
start associating science with magick. Though science was magick at
one time, and magick is a science all of its own, the two cannot
comfortably be combined at present. We all respect your thoughts
and beliefs, but unless it pertains to the game, privatize it. The
Fountain of Youth means many things to many people. "Perception is
what you make of it" also means many things to many people. Let us
not start flaming on this oh so sensitive subject.

By-the-by Tom, I myself practice magick and am of the Wiccan
religion. If you or anyone else wiches to discuss either topic with me,
my address appears in my sig. Later days and greater lays.




Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for a friend.

-Shadowdancer- <briddle@*****.vinu.edu>
Message no. 37
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 19:05:09 EST
Jeff writes:

> When saying something exists, such as magic(k) or god, the proof
rests
> not with the disbeliever but with the believer. There is no concrete,
> scientific proof to back the existence of magic.
>
And there is no concrete, scientific proof to disclaim the esixtance of
magick. See both sides to the coin, and all three sides to the story.
So There!!! :-) <grin, smiley, no flame,etc.>

> As for the standard argument of, "There are things that Science can't
> explain," my response is, "Just wait."
>
See previous posting on science and magick.




Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for a friend.

-Shadowdancer- <briddle@*****.vinu.edu>
Message no. 38
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 19:25:54 EST
Large amounts of rant:

> all of the crap that gets tossed around with nothing other than the
> traditional lame-o "Magick is Life, Life is Magick" statement to back
it
> up. As a result, this discussion has progressed beyond the simple
> Fountain of Youth thing. Perhaps that is where it should have
stayed.
>
Though I too follow the path of the Magus, I have to say that I whole
heartedly agree with Marc. I have posted before on this particular
subject withen the past five minutes. The problam in anything,
scientific or magickal, lies in fanaticism. Thomas is obviously a
fanatic for the magickal. Yet fanaticism leads to what the Catholics
did to my people in the middle-ages(not flamatory, just fact). It leads
to flames on this list and hurt fealings. I have my share of fanaticism,
and actually grew up a little from speaking to the other Tolm
Wappers. The bottem line is, we all need to SPEAK our minds without
causing mayham. An arguement is fine, not a fight.

My view on the "Life is Magick" this is simply this: Life is very
magickal. This not only applies to actual magick, but the feeling of
life and the feeling of bringing life into the world. Scientists can tell
me play by play how the "miracle" of life happens, but that does not
take away the sense of being ALIVE. Watching a birth, sharing the
secret of existance with someone, taking care of little ones, marveling
at what nature has done, all of this is magick. The essance is still
there. And I feel that anything that science cannot replicate ie
emotions and actual life(not test tube or genetics) is magickal in its
own right.


> To those of you who could care less about this obnoxious
> discussion, I sincerely apologize for the waste of your bandwidth.
>
Actually, I enjoy these arguments. Just make part of the game or take
it to private.




Many people fear Death, saying it is the bitter end.
I say Death is just lonely, crying out for a friend.

-Shadowdancer- <briddle@*****.vinu.edu>
Message no. 39
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.PR.ERAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 17:30:39 -0700
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> Here's something for ye non-believers: What is LIFE? Many believe that life
> is things that breathe, reproduce, have cell structures, etc. Who ARE we to
> say what is alive? We do not determine what is life. The chair you sit on
> could actually be alive; BUT we don't have the means to determine that.

Well WE are the ones who write the rules. If society says it's life, why
shouldn't it be? By the way my chair is quite dead, I think it died when
they cut down the tree.

> There has been experiments into how to create life from scratch; but To
> date none have been successful.

Really? I'd like to hear more details if their not too technical.

> Tom Craig
> aka
> Halmir Palantiri
> Magus Extraordinare

--Jason--
Message no. 40
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 20:22:31 -0500
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:

> I believe they are talking about number of treatments, not
> maintainence. You can recieve the treatment AVG(Bod, Will) times and
> within a particular treatment you need maintainance sessions to ensure
> the treatment "sticks".

Ah, yes. Upon reading the rules more carefully, I see you are
correct. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Marc
Message no. 41
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 20:25:49 -0500
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

[stuff about "what is life?"]

Okay. Circular and totally unprovable, but that's life. You've
got no argument from me so far.

> There has been experiments into how to create life from scratch; but To
> date none have been successful. All that those experiments have done has
> been to create new products, that are useful in the everyday world and the
> laboratory.

This part is not totally correct. There have been experiments
that have not created life perse, but they have come extremely close,
synthesizing groups of amino acids and protein that were beginning to show
the characteristics of lower-level life forms like blue-green algae.
But they couldn't self-replicate. Not life yet, but getting pretty
close.

> So in conclusion: Ball's back on your side of the court.
> That's what you get when your form of Magick is neither shamanic nor hermetic
> in orientation; and you majored in Chemistry for 2.5 years;

You keep bringing this up like it will make me believe you. I
konw lots of chemists and chemical engineers, and none of them have had
any sudden revelations about the nature of magic and the universe.
Maybe you should have stayed in it for longer than 2.5 years, or maybe
thrown in some more biology :)

Marc
Message no. 42
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 18:33:52 -0700
>>I hate to burst your bubble, but did you not know that nature is magick?
>> Life in and of itself is Magick, Magick is in ALL things. Well, I happen to
>>be a practicing Magick-User (I put the "k" on Magick to distinguish
between
>>"Magic Tricks" and true Magic. A practice started by Aleister Crowley)
I
>>think this may start a new Magick debate, but oh, well. Technology is
>>another form of Magick (Hence the term Techno-wizard.), same with Chemical
>>Reactions (I Majored in this for two and a half years.), same with
>>reproduction, etc., etc. So with this perspective in mind that is how I can




>>state "The Fountain of Youth is Magickal." and be truthful about it.
Truth
>>and Reality are a matter of perspective. Fact is only certain truths and
>>realities that are agreed upon by all as having happened.
>
>Wrong. Period. The end.

actually - this arguement does have a good deal of basis in quantum mechanics.
at least parts of it.


For the rest it

Tom - your sounding like one of those wonderful fanatics that you happen to find
in certain religions.

This really is the place for this. Try alt.magick and all the sub groups


Nightfox
Message no. 43
From: Jason Larke <jlarke@**.ITD.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 21:25:55 -0500
>>>>> On Mon, 05 Dec 1994 18:16:52 EST, "Thomas W. Craig"
>>>>> <Craigtw1@***.COM> said:

TWC> Here's something for ye non-believers: What is LIFE?
TWC> Many believe that life is things that breathe,
TWC> reproduce, have cell structures, etc. Who ARE we to
TWC> say what is alive? We do not determine what is life.

Sure we do. In two major ways:

1) We are the only beings on earth who use the word
'life'. It's going to stick to whatever we use it on.

2) We are the only beings on earth who use chainsaws. We can
render most things dead right quickly- which certainly
settles the issue.

Not to mention all the wonderful totalitarians everywhere,
in real life and SR, who decide for themselves who lives and
who dies.

In a vain attempt to bring us back to SR:

How far do people take this sorts of questions in their
games? In the Amber games I've played, exploration of
metaphysics, the structure of the universe, and similar
questions is a major activity, since it's a major path to
power. Have any GM's allowed players to make those sorts of
discoveries in SR?

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jason Larke- jlarke@*****.edu- sysadmin, philosophy guy, and Rush fan |
| "I drink the blood of my enemies," Hawk said, and smiled his happy grin. |
|I don't speak for ITD-LSA, U-M, or the international communist conspiracy.|
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 44
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 21:28:28 -0500
Marc,
I thank you in notifying me of my burden of proof was not carried out. I do
have a narrow perspective, but it is not as narrow as it once was. I have
fought totems and won, Death Lords and survived, and soul-stealers and
drained them; all within the last two years. I have faith in Magick and
myself. If noone has faith in themselves or in anything that they know, they
become cynical, bitter, depressive, and hateful. I try my best to be
accepting of other's beliefs; all I ask is that they accept mine. I may fail
at that task, but i am not above apologizing for my lack of acceptance.
Tom Craig
aka
Halmir Palantiri
Magus
Message no. 45
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 20:45:41 -0700
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> could survive Leonization. If you have to have check-ups every six
> months for four years, that's 8 maintenance sessions. If the maintenance
> sessions exceed the average of your Body and Willpower, you die a horrible,
> agonizing death. ergo, everyone but a Troll with maximum natural Body
> and Willpower will die before the treatment is complete. Methinks
>
Er..it's not the maintainence sessions that can't exceed the average of
Body and Willpower, it's the base rejuvenation attampt. The maintainence
sessions just make sure nothing went wrong...

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 46
From: Loki <jek5313@*******.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 21:13:33 -0600
Ladies and Gentlemen:
>
> When saying something exists, such as magic(k) or god, the proof rests
> not with the disbeliever but with the believer. There is no concrete,
> scientific proof to back the existence of magic.
>
> As for the standard argument of, "There are things that Science can't
> explain," my response is, "Just wait."
>
>

Hate to burst _everyone's_ bubble, but this forums exists for our
convenience in discussing SHADOWRUN, not theology, philosophy, or
eschatology for Gods' sake.

Please make this relevant to Shadowrun, or please discontinue it.



--

Dark Thought Publications & Doom Technologies, Inc.
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
Message no. 47
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 23:31:31 -0500
In response to Thomas W. Craig's "What is LIFE?" rant, I must
quote a well-known song as translated into Latin and then translated
back...literally.

"Propel, propel, propel your craft
Placidly along the liquid solution
Exaltingly, exaltingly, exaltingly, exaltingly
Existance is merely an illusion."

I could go on for many screenfuls about how reality is a theory,
and therefore every so-called "law" is just a theory as well, and
everything was made up by all of us so if you could convince everybody (at
the deepest level) to change their worldview then the world itself would
change...but I won't. It's not worth discussing, because by the time it
gets to something like that then it's no longer related to the game.
(There is a not-so-subtle hint here, by the way. *grin*)

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "The problem was that there was a Stonehenge monument on the stage |
| that was in danger of being crushed by a dwarf. That tends to |
| understate the hugeness of the object." --This Is Spinal Tap |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 48
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.PR.ERAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 00:10:19 -0700
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> I have fought totems and won, Death Lords and survived, and soul-stealers and
> drained them; all within the last two years. I have faith in Magick and
> myself.

Perhaps I'm loosing track of what's serious and what's not in this
topic. Is above statement pertaining to a Shadowrun character or are you
telling us you've really done this stuff?

--Jason--
Message no. 49
From: "Thomas W. Craig" <Craigtw1@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 07:53:49 -0500
Herr Doom,
Thank you for notifying us of the consequences of this entire debate of
Magick.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
Jason,
What I stated about what I have done I actually did do.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------
About the title, just brushing my ego a little bit, but I am not bragging.(at
least I don't think so.)
Later,
Tom Craig
aka
Halmir Palantiri
Magus Extraordinare
Message no. 50
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 09:50:53 -0600
Jeff Norell:
> When saying something exists, such as magic(k) or god, the proof rests
> not with the disbeliever but with the believer. There is no concrete,
> scientific proof to back the existence of magic.
>
> As for the standard argument of, "There are things that Science can't
> explain," my response is, "Just wait."

NO NO NO!!! NOT THIS DISCUSSION *AGAIN*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ANYTHING BUT THIS!!! EXCEPT RAIL GUNS.. PULEASE!!

*calms down...*
We've already discussed this all over hell and back.. and we came to the
same concensus.. I'll thwap anyone that starts discussing this personally
with a ten pound wad of cotton wrapped in a sizable brick.. >:(

Wes

\||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/
- Wes W. Walker (wwalker@****.uark.edu) * "...in large, friendly letters -
- CSCI Major and General Slave * were the words 'DON'T PANIC'." -
- Artiste Wanna-be (accepting donations)* -Hitch Hiker's Guide -
/||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\
Message no. 51
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 09:54:51 -0600
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Adam Getchell wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

[stuff about magic(k) tm deled]

*THWAP* +SMACK+ *POW* &WHAM& #KEEEERRRAAAACCKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#

"SOME ONE BRING ME ANOTHER BRICK!!!!"

Argh... this stupid argument again...

Wes

\||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/
- Wes W. Walker (wwalker@****.uark.edu) * "...in large, friendly letters -
- CSCI Major and General Slave * were the words 'DON'T PANIC'." -
- Artiste Wanna-be (accepting donations)* -Hitch Hiker's Guide -
/||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\
Message no. 52
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 10:01:03 -0600
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> So in conclusion: Ball's back on your side of the court.
> That's what you get when your form of Magick is neither shamanic nor hermetic
> in orientation; and you majored in Chemistry for 2.5 years;

I grab the ball and stomp on it... TAKE THIS TO PRIVATE MAIL. It is
possible that people are tired of reading this. :( Please stop wasting
my db space..

Wes

\||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/
- Wes W. Walker (wwalker@****.uark.edu) * "...in large, friendly letters -
- CSCI Major and General Slave * were the words 'DON'T PANIC'." -
- Artiste Wanna-be (accepting donations)* -Hitch Hiker's Guide -
/||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\
Message no. 53
From: Chris McKinnon <cmckinno@********.CA>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 12:38:46 -0400
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> the rules, very few people (like, nobody who's not outrageously modified)
> could survive Leonization. If you have to have check-ups every six
> months for four years, that's 8 maintenance sessions. If the maintenance
> sessions exceed the average of your Body and Willpower, you die a horrible,
> agonizing death. ergo, everyone but a Troll with maximum natural Body
> and Willpower will die before the treatment is complete. Methinks
> something is amiss here.
>
> Marc
No - you have read the text wrong there - the maintenance sessions do
not count as "rejuvenation attempts", as mentioned in the book. Each
rejuvenation attempt includes the 4 month bath, as well as the
semi-annual maintenance sessions.



=============================================================================
Enigma = "Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun..."
Chris McKinnon = - Ash, Army of Darkness
cmckinno@********.ca =
Message no. 54
From: robert frazine <shade@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 13:34:23 -0500
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Thomas W. Craig wrote:

> Marc,
> I thank you in notifying me of my burden of proof was not carried out. I do
> have a narrow perspective, but it is not as narrow as it once was. I have
> fought totems and won, Death Lords and survived, and soul-stealers and
> drained them; all within the last two years. I have faith in Magick and
> myself.
Hi. I'm afraid that your previous statements prove that you are either
a liar or insane...As a practitioner of the shamanic religion...I doubt
that you fought a totem. Or that you have won...unless you are talking
within the framework of SR. If you are talking about reality then I
sincerely hope that you get help fast...I have had visions with at least
three different totems,mine, deer, and spider. In all the times that
I knew I was in the presence I felt quite a bit of awe, and the knowledge
that they had much more power than I could ever have...Also, I have talked
to a true shaman and an apprentice...Now granted the apprentice was slightly
insane, but they both told me that one does not fight a totem...and
a totem would never fight a human...except for maybe some of the insects
and of course, Spider...of course I'm slightly prejudiced against
her...Now I do not mean to flame you...only to point out to others on this
list who may not know much about the shamanic traditions that what you
say is wrong...oh and I know: I'm narrowminded and am not viewing
from the same perspective...
Shade Michaels
(Soon to be my real name--in reality)
Message no. 55
From: The GREAT Cornholio <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 13:13:36 -0700
On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Gurth wrote:

> > each one after that). Hey, does semiannual mean once every two years or
> > twice a year? I can never remember that stuff. I've had bi-monthly
>
> semi = half
> bi = two
>
> So, semi-annual = half-yearly = once per half year.
> bi-weekly = two-weekly = twice per week.

Right. It seems our friend who posted before-hand about the prefix
problem (I'm sorry but I can't remember who you are) had some companies
that had the same problem.

Mike TGC

I post semi-regularly :-)
Message no. 56
From: Joaquin Zoak Perez <jzoak@****.UBA.AR>
Subject: Leonization
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 13:46:13 -0300
> I don't have my book, but I think leonization takes a little essence...
> That's a problem for my troll. :)_

No sir, it doesn't take essence. What it takes is a lot of money
(over two million of nuyens, and then 250 grand each six months).

--

Fastjack -()- (was bored but not anymore)
jzoak@****.cnba.uba.ar directly to ............. (your name here)
Message no. 57
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:02:03 -0400
> > I don't have my book, but I think leonization takes a little essence...
> > That's a problem for my troll. :)_
>
> No sir, it doesn't take essence. What it takes is a lot of money
> (over two million of nuyens, and then 250 grand each six months).

Why is everyone so hyped about Leonization? You can't tell me every one
of you has shadowrunners who have survived to be old enough to _need_ it..?
(I always thought of it as an interesting option for NPC's. A runner in
his/her 20's or early 30's doesn't get a few million nuyen worth of benefit
from such a minor aging reduction. Do you have old runner characters?)


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "Man will occasionally stumble over the
My opinions are my opinions. | truth, but most of the time he will pick
Please don't blame anyone else. | himself up and continue on." - Churchill
Message no. 58
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 12:13:24 +0200
>Why is everyone so hyped about Leonization? You can't tell me every one
>of you has shadowrunners who have survived to be old enough to _need_ it..?
>(I always thought of it as an interesting option for NPC's.

I had been thinking of making an adventure around a famous person from the
1990s who'd invested in Leonization in the 2050s, to become the person (s)he
was in the '90s again.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's the bald man's dream to grow hair, baby
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Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 59
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 23:58:03 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> >Why is everyone so hyped about Leonization? You can't tell me every one
> >of you has shadowrunners who have survived to be old enough to _need_ it..?
> >(I always thought of it as an interesting option for NPC's.
>
> I had been thinking of making an adventure around a famous person from the
> 1990s who'd invested in Leonization in the 2050s, to become the person (s)he
> was in the '90s again.

Just don't let it be Micheal Jackson...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 60
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 14:38:58 -0400
Robert Watkins retorts:

> Gurth wrote:
> > I had been thinking of making an adventure around a famous person from the
> > 1990s who'd invested in Leonization in the 2050s, to become the person (s)he
> > was in the '90s again.
>
> Just don't let it be Micheal Jackson...

You gotta admit, though, it's his kind of technology.. >8-> Actually,
given Michael Jackson's investments in biotech to date, he'd probably get
a skin transplant and turn himself blue, or furry, or something.

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "To really ask is to open the door
My opinions are my opinions. | to the whirlwind."
Please don't blame anyone else. | -- Anne Rice, _The Vampire Lestat_
Message no. 61
From: Charles KcKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 18:56:52 -0500
A while ago I wrote...
> > > I don't have my book, but I think leonization takes a little essence...
> > > That's a problem for my troll. :)_
> >
> > No sir, it doesn't take essence. What it takes is a lot of money
> > (over two million of nuyens, and then 250 grand each six months).
>
> Why is everyone so hyped about Leonization? You can't tell me every one
> of you has shadowrunners who have survived to be old enough to _need_ it..?
> (I always thought of it as an interesting option for NPC's. A runner in
> his/her 20's or early 30's doesn't get a few million nuyen worth of benefit
> from such a minor aging reduction. Do you have old runner characters?)
>
Yeah, my main character just hit 50. It's starting to look kinda cost
effective for him...

Kilroy
Message no. 62
From: Jason Salem <jsalem@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Leonization
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 18:47:57 -0500
>Robert Watkins retorts:
>
>> Gurth wrote:
>> > I had been thinking of making an adventure around a famous person from the
>> > 1990s who'd invested in Leonization in the 2050s, to become the person
(s)he
>> > was in the '90s again.
>>
>> Just don't let it be Micheal Jackson...
>
>You gotta admit, though, it's his kind of technology.. >8-> Actually,
>given Michael Jackson's investments in biotech to date, he'd probably get
>a skin transplant and turn himself blue, or furry, or something.
>
Michael Jackson IS... Grover!
<evil laughter>
Message no. 63
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Leonization
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:32:08 -0500 (EST)
Is it just gone now, or are the Shadowtech rules good enough
to still be official? I always liked the concept, but can't tell
whether it's an omission due to space, or whether it's something they
removed, like grounding.

Mark
Message no. 64
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Leonization
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:38:27 EST
In a message dated 11/30/1999 10:33:22 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
SHODAN+@***.EDU writes:

> Is it just gone now, or are the Shadowtech rules good enough
> to still be official? I always liked the concept, but can't tell
> whether it's an omission due to space, or whether it's something they
> removed, like grounding.

As I mentioned in another post Mark, Genetics was not expanded or explored in
the Man & Machine information. I do believe that the topic has *NOT* been
dropped from FASA's desire to see published, but due to the space currently
involved in M&M now, you can possibly see why it was included with the
material.

Yes, many of you are going to want to know why or disagree with this
decision. Take this and any other related topics/concerns up with Mike
Mulvihill at FASA. His email is fairly well known.

Besides, Genetics is another topic that is even more advanced than the stuff
presented in M&M now ... I somehow could have envisioned the development
staff's nightmares' at the idea of including Genetics in with all of this and
have it work consistently within the overall game rules.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 65
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: Leonization
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:13:35 -0200
On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:38:27 EST
Ereskanti@***.com wro
> Besides, Genetics is another topic that is even more advanced than the stuff
> presented in M&M now ... I somehow could have envisioned the development
> staff's nightmares' at the idea of including Genetics in with all of this and
> have it work consistently within the overall game rules.

I like what's in Shadowtech about genetics, and Leónization can
be a good plot device. It's existance makes a substantial part of the
info on Zurich Orbital in Corporate Shadowfiles a large pile of drek :) .
I'm talking about the "elderly citizens", all those rich people that
went up the well to extend their life spans, such as Wilhelmina Graft,
the former owner of Saeder Krupp.
What of most or all of them have undergone Leónization and are
on Earth going about their most assuredly suspicious bussiness? What if
the young and unusually succesful S-K exec is actually Aunt Mina a few
decades younger :) ?
Of course, the Shadowfiles are a bit outdated, and the new book
might have already discussed this, but if it didn't, them the issue
still stands :) .


Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 66
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Leonization
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:43:38 +0200
According to Paul J. Adam, at 23:46 on 14 Apr 00, the word on the street
was...

> Shadowrun is an extrapolation of where we are today. Hell, I might still be
> alive in 2060 :) Probably scrabbling for cash to Leonise :)

One of the people I used to play with thought of that once, as a character
concept... He reasoned that if he made a character who'd been born in the
1970s, played SR in the 1990s, and then underwent Leonization in the
2050s, he'd know what was going to happen in the adventures his character
would be going through :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"There are millions of people who've got nothing to say to each other,
and who do it on mobile phones" --Ian Hislop, on Have I Got News For You
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Message no. 67
From: Even even@***********.fr
Subject: Leonization
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 14:03:20 +0200
Gurth wrote:

> One of the people I used to play with thought of that once, as a
> character concept... He reasoned that if he made a character
> who'd been born in the 1970s, played SR in the 1990s, and then
> underwent Leonization in the 2050s, he'd know what was going to
> happen in the adventures his character would be going through :)

One of the players in my group wanted to play the GM from another campaign (who was also a
player in this one) 60 years on. The player figured he'd goblinized into a big,
nearly-brain-dead troll without any trace of social intelligence. :-)
--
(>) Alleycat [even.tomte@*********.com]

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Leonization, you may also be interested in:

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