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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (darren malin)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Tue May 7 17:15:01 2002
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Hi all,

I spend 5 years of my life in The Britsh army using these puppys think I know a little
about this subject.

You are right in that mose of todays Light Machine Guns are not real heavy in fact most
are just assult rifles with a longer barrel and a bi-pod. *The Britsh SA80 assult rifle
and its Light Machine Gun vertion the LSW are a goos example of this*.

No what Makes a Light Machine Guns a Heavy weapon is the WAY they are used and the
differant training that is needed to use then effectivly.

An assult rifle if just that it is for closing with the enamy and taking him out at
suppizingly close ranges. A Light Machine Guns or any Machine gun come to that is meent to
provied coving and suppresing fire while the rest of the assult rifle armed sqard move up.


So classing Light Machine Guns as heavy weapon is to reflect the differant mind set , and
training need to use one correctly to get the maximin filed of fire for the longest amonut
of time be for your own squard get in the way , to find this place , make the best use of
cover and to deal with the more stopages you get from fireing a weapon on fullauto for a
long time.

well thats it , see you all in the shadows

Cat



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<P>Hi all,</P>
<P>I spend 5 years of my life in The Britsh army using these puppys think I know a
little about this subject.</P>
<P>You are right in that&nbsp;mose&nbsp;of todays&nbsp;Light Machine
Guns are not real heavy in fact most are just assult rifles with a longer barrel and a
bi-pod. *The Britsh SA80 assult rifle and its Light Machine Gun vertion the LSW are a goos
example of this*.</P>
<P>No what Makes a Light Machine Guns a Heavy weapon is the WAY they are used and
the differant training that is needed to use then effectivly. </P>
<P>An assult rifle if just that it is for closing with the enamy and taking him out
at suppizingly close ranges. A Light Machine Guns or any Machine gun come to that is meent
to provied coving and suppresing fire while the rest of the assult rifle armed sqard move
up. </P>
<P>So classing Light Machine Guns as heavy weapon is to reflect the differant mind
set , and training need to use one correctly to get the maximin filed of fire for the
longest amonut of time be for your own squard get in the way , to find this place , make
the best use of cover and to deal with the more stopages you get from fireing a weapon on
fullauto for a long time.</P>
<P>well thats it , see you all in the shadows</P>
<P>Cat</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You
Yahoo!?</b><br>
Get personalised at <a
href="http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/mail_uk/my?http://uk.my.yahoo.com";
target="_blank">My Yahoo!</a>.
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Tue May 7 17:45:03 2002
In article <20020507211153.62243.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>, darren
malin <catmalin@*****.com> writes
>No what Makes a Light Machine Guns a Heavy weapon is the WAY they are
>used and the differant training that is needed to use then effectivly.

Depends. (Says another ex-soldier :) )

If you know how to clear a stoppage in an L85, you know how to clear a
stoppage in a L86 (you don't have the very different drills we used to
have between SLR, and Bren or GPMG) Another excellent example of this
would be comparing AKs and RPKs. Know how to feed and care for one, know
them all, pretty much.

>An assult rifle if just that it is for closing with the enamy and
>taking him out at suppizingly close ranges. A Light Machine Guns or any
>Machine gun come to that is meent to provied coving and suppresing fire
>while the rest of the assult rifle armed sqard move up.

If - *big* if - you're using it as part of a disciplined, trained
military unit who have clearly defined battle drills.

If you're a mob of individuals each hauling a weapon, and you've chosen
a LMG-type weapon for whatever reason, then you need to separate
_tactical_ skills from _weapon_ skills.


>So classing Light Machine Guns as heavy weapon is to reflect the
>differant mind set , and training need to use one correctly to get the
>maximin filed of fire for the longest amonut of time be for your own
>squard get in the way , to find this place , make the best use of cover
>and to deal with the more stopages you get from fireing a weapon on
>fullauto for a long time.

You're right, for a military unit - but shadowrun teams are rarely
military units.

I'd prefer to compare it to the difference between being the GPMG gunner
in a section (back when the standard section was seven riflemen with
SLRs and one GPMG) and using a GPMG as part of the battalion MG Platoon.


In one case it's your personal weapon which you carry and fight with
(albeit using it differently to take advantage of its capabilities and
limitations, but in a FIBUA bugout the GPMG is often just a big heavy
rifle most of the time); in the other it's a _support_ weapon that is
sited with the same care as the MILAN firing posts and can have platoon
positions built around it.


If you're carrying it as _your_ weapon then it's a firearm. If you're
using it in support of a unit it's Heavy Weapons. Hard to really nail
down a dividing line.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Tue May 7 17:55:01 2002
At 22:11 07.05.2002 +0100, darren malin wrote:

>You are right in that mose of todays Light Machine Guns are not real heavy
>in fact most are just assult rifles with a longer barrel and a bi-pod.
>*The Britsh SA80 assult rifle and its Light Machine Gun vertion the LSW
>are a goos example of this*.

Well - the only other "LMG" of that mark-up I know is the Steyr AUG HBAR
(heavy barrel), and that one is not even in use with an armed force
somewhere. clip-fed LMG just don't have enough ammo for their role, IMHO.
All other armies deploy either the SAW / M249 / FN Minimi or a 7.62 NATO
GPMG. Like a MG3 or a FN MAG/ M240B/ etc.

>No what Makes a Light Machine Guns a Heavy weapon is the WAY they are used
>and the differant training that is needed to use then effectivly.

IMO it's just rules tinkering. A could see a difference if most assault
rifles would only have SA/BF , but many also have full auto fire. So you
can effectively suppress the enemy with an AR.


Arclight
--
When you let the book keepers decide which weapon
to buy, they have a figure on how much a gun costs.
But they think soldiers come for free.
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Tue May 7 20:10:01 2002
I had originally replied to Derek only, but I think I'll post my reply to the
group. You're all pretty well right. Here was my reply:

---Begin Paste---

I think I see what you're trying to get at here. Certainly, if you find
a loaded LMG on the corner, you would be able to fire it as soon as you
pick it up just like an assault rifle. As such, I would say you could
default to Assault Rifle skill without penalty when defaulting for
firing.

When it comes to reloading the LMG, it's slightly different (in most
cases,the British LSW, being one of several notable exceptions. So, in
the case of a belt fed LMG, I would say you should give them a penalty
for defaulting to AR skill.

Further, the LMG is supposed to have a different application than assault
rifles, so
proper use of it in the field requires a slightly different skill set and
knowledge base: changing barrels, suppressive fire, etc. These things in my
opinion,
would require a Heavy Weapons (or LMG) skill for the character to use
properly.

Finally, I wouldn't force players to suffer the +2 recoil penalty for
uncompensated recoil if you fire the LMG as the rules state you must do for
firing Heavy Weapons.

---End Paste---

> Well - the only other "LMG" of that mark-up I know is the Steyr AUG HBAR
> (heavy barrel), and that one is not even in use with an armed force
> somewhere. clip-fed LMG just don't have enough ammo for their role, IMHO.
> All other armies deploy either the SAW / M249 / FN Minimi or a 7.62 NATO
> GPMG. Like a MG3 or a FN MAG/ M240B/ etc.

Haha, I would have said the same thing when I first thought of the LSW!
However, I spoke with a MOD Light Colonel in charge of the development of the
LSW battlefield fire mission, and you would be *impressed* at how aggressive
the rates of fire you can accomplish with this clip fed LMG. He wouldn't
tell me too much, however, since I wasn't classified for it, such as what the
expected hit/shot ratio was, etc, but he did confirm the following for me:

Quick Section Attack:

60rpm for 3 mins (Contact and Winning firefight)
0 rpm for 1 min (change position)
60rpm for 3 mins (Win firefight)
0 rpm for 2 mins (Reload 5 Mags, Change position)
60 rpm for 2.5 mins (Win firefight)

total 510 rounds over 11.5 mins.

Not bad considering you would really have to change clips every 30seconds to
maintain that rate of fire.

Personally, I would prefer a belt fed LMG. If you need to fire off several 5
round bursts in quick succession you can do so knowing you still have more than
100rounds and that if anyone sticks their heads up when you stop shooting, you
can resume fire with impunity.

NB. The MOD assumes you will have 1 LSW per 4 person fire team, 2 fire teams
per section.


> IMO it's just rules tinkering. A could see a difference if most assault
> rifles would only have SA/BF , but many also have full auto fire. So you
> can effectively suppress the enemy with an AR.

Yes, you can. The 6 other riflemen in the section are also doing
suppression/win fire fight with their assault rifles. However, it was always
assumed the AR would have a certain degree more accuracy due to its lower rates
of fire and greater mobility due to its lighter weight.

The MOD also assumes that fire mission of the AR in the quick section attack
is:

30 rpm (single shot) for 40secs. (Winning the firefight)
10 rpm (single shot) for 6 mins. (Winning the firefight)
30 rpm (single shot) for 1 min. (Winning the firefight)
10x4-round bursts for 1 min. (Assault)

150 rounds in 8mins and 40seconds.

Assumption: the infantryman will carry 5 mags personal, and 5 mags for the
fireteam.

As you can see, the job of the AR for 7mins 40seconds is fire suppression. Its
only for 1 action packed minute that you open up for the trench clearing party.

Considering you're only attacking one section's trenches, and you're firing
660 rounds over 10mins before you finish the assault, which should give some
idea of what percentage of rounds should be required to kill 8 peeps.

Xian.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Tue May 7 22:00:01 2002
Just while we're on this subject, didn't the swiss or someone else in europe
hand out Semi-Auto assault rifles to their soldiers with the idea that if
they can't auto fire, then they will have to aim and thus be more accurate
since they aren't relying on a "spray and pray" effect. heard this some
where, can any one confrim or deny?

When Angels cry "Whence comes your fear?"
I shall reply "I find it here"


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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Tue May 7 23:55:02 2002
I am NOT going to post the original posts, due to the fact that I am
currently very tired, and sore, from playing with such weapons all weekend.
Forgive me. The LMG, and I will be using the SAW (squad Automatic Weapon) as
my example, is, in many respects, the same as an assault rifle (i.e. the
M16A2. They fire the same ammo, and have the same kick (roughly). That is,
however, where the similarities stop. The SAW has a different sling to help
support firing it while standing or moving while shooting. What difference
does that make? Tons. The SAW can fire in FA mode. You don't aim these
shots. As the Brit mentioned, it is used to provide cover fire or to pin
down the enemy. subtlety is not this weapons forte. The Bipod is also a
major change. It changes the shape of the forstock and therefore changes the
aiming ability...it also adds weight. The SAW is MUCH heavier than the M16
and is usually given, ironically, to the smallest person in the squad. I
think that is just for humor, however. The Saw can take ammo in 3 different
forms, Belt, Drum, or clip. The clips in mind are the same clips for the
M16. These are last ditch rounds, however, since the SAW can empty a clip in
about 12 seconds. Not much for anything but an Alamo-like last stand. For
game purposes, the SAW is drastically different from an assault rifle and
takes different skills as well as mindsets. That is why they have 2
different skill sets. Personally, I would not want to carry an LMG into
combat, but would really appreciate anyone who did.

Lunatec
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 00:05:01 2002
> Just while we're on this subject, didn't the swiss or someone else in
> europe
> hand out Semi-Auto assault rifles to their soldiers with the idea that
if
> they can't auto fire, then they will have to aim and thus be more
accurate
> since they aren't relying on a "spray and pray" effect. heard this
some
> where, can any one confrim or deny?

Not too sure on that one but as I've heard while in the us army myself,
the reasoning behind making the M16A2 burst fire instead of full auto
like the A1 was the fact that during Vietnam the squads would get
surprised and those that hadn't seen combat before had a tendency to
hold down the trigger and before they knew it they'd wasted all of their
ammo and were screwed.
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 00:45:01 2002
Okay, this has gotten WAY away from my original intent, I was asking
what SR skill it falls under, my rationale for saying that it IS NOT a
heavy weapon still stands as such, it's NOT a crew served weapon. A LMG
is the SAW for the US army, the MMG is the M240B for the US Army, and an
HMG is the M2 .50 Machinegun, either of the LMG or MMG are man portable
and NOT THAT HARD to fire effectively, I know this as I've carried both.
I didn't imply that they were in any way related to an assault rifle. I
DID however state that from personal experience they're not to be
classified with Heavy Weapons hence the question once again, what would
you make the skill? Would you decide that there's a new skill called
LMG's or would you tell me to shut up, suck it up, and list it as a
Heavy weapon?
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 01:10:01 2002
>Would you decide that there's a new skill called
>LMG's or would you tell me to shut up, suck it up, and list it as a
>Heavy weapon?

Personally I'd go for the last option, simply for simplicity.
Can you fire LMG's, MMG's from the shoulder. I always invisage
that assault rifles are fired from the shoulder, while MG's are fired from
the hip, or a tri/bi pod. Smartlinks, of course, bury this argument. Except
for
recoil of course.
Which brings me to my next question: Does a character get -1 recoil when
firing
from the shoulder?




--
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died there."
F. Scott Fitzgerald


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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 01:40:01 2002
> Personally I'd go for the last option, simply for simplicity.
> Can you fire LMG's, MMG's from the shoulder. I always invisage
> that assault rifles are fired from the shoulder, while MG's are fired
from
> the hip, or a tri/bi pod. Smartlinks, of course, bury this argument.
> Except
> for
> recoil of course.
> Which brings me to my next question: Does a character get -1 recoil
when
> firing
> from the shoulder?

Dunno but you can fire an mmg from the shoulder if it's designed to be
fired in that manner
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 04:45:01 2002
>From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net>
>Okay, this has gotten WAY away from my original intent, I was asking
>what SR skill it falls under...<Snip>... what would
>you make the skill? Would you decide that there's a new skill called
>LMG's or would you tell me to shut up, suck it up, and list it as a
>Heavy weapon?

I was under the impression that the SAW was a GPMG rather than an LMG hence
an MMG in the SR listing but...
That isn't the question so.

I would retain the LMG's Heavy Weapon status (and therefore skill
requirement).
The reasons for this are quite simple; 1 - Game balance, to minimise the
proliferation of trolls with boom guns, if LMGs were to become in effect a
specialisation of the assault rifles skill they immediately start to replace
the FN-HAR (for example). As it stands a lot of players who buy heavy
weapons skills buy them quite low (in my experience, possibly because they
tend not to start play with such weapons and while they can almost guarentee
that they can pick up an AR in play Heavy weapons are a different matter.)
2- Look at the number of weapons that actually come under the Heavy Weapons
skill, there aren't many and all of them (with the exception of the GE
Vindicator) are pure breed MGs, they are all designed to maintain a
relatively high ROF for suppressive fire and anti-armour work. (even an LMG
(given enough ammo) could take out a WWII Tiger).

There are other things I could say but.
I can't think what they are at the moment, ah bibble, bibble is one of the
things I could say...

(Vanishing off amid insane mutterings)

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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 05:15:03 2002
According to darren malin, on Tue, 07 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> No what Makes a Light Machine Guns a Heavy weapon is the WAY they are
> used and the differant training that is needed to use then effectivly.

Like Paul said, that's true for a military unit; to shadowrunners, though,
I think LMGs are mostly longer-ranged rifles with a large ammo capacity.
Unless you've got shadowrunners operating like a military unit, of course,
but in that case they will probably be with too few people to use LMGs
effectively -- though a rigger and some drones can make up for that, with
the "problem" for this thread that the LMG then uses Gunnery skill instead
of Heavy Weapons :)

> An assult rifle if just that it is for closing with the enamy and taking
> him out at suppizingly close ranges.

An assault rifle is just that because Hitler hoped the name would inspire
German soldiers to go on attack rather than the defense with them ;)

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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 05:15:09 2002
According to Bryan Pow, on Wed, 08 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> Just while we're on this subject, didn't the swiss or someone else in
> europe hand out Semi-Auto assault rifles to their soldiers with the idea
> that if they can't auto fire, then they will have to aim and thus be more
> accurate since they aren't relying on a "spray and pray" effect. heard
> this some where, can any one confrim or deny?

If you're thinking of the FAL rifle, then both the British and Dutch
versions fired semi-automatically only, whereas most other countries issued
full-auto versions instead.

But you are probably thinking of the burst limiters introduced in the 1980s
in the US Army with the M16A2, which are meant to prevent soldiers from
simply holding down the trigger and firing off whole magazines that have no
hope of hitting (as was found to be the case in Vietnam).

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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 05:15:13 2002
According to Derek Hyde, on Wed, 08 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> I DID however state that from personal experience they're not to be
> classified with Heavy Weapons hence the question once again, what would
> you make the skill? Would you decide that there's a new skill called
> LMG's or would you tell me to shut up, suck it up, and list it as a
> Heavy weapon?

I'll tell you to do what you want with it :)

It all depends on your interpretation, I suppose. You could say that LMGs
use Assault Rifles skill (after all, the M249 was for several years
classified as an "automatic rifle" in the US Army) since the two fire
similar rounds and the only _real_ difference is belt feed and/or barrel
length. If you follow this reasoning, you can also make MMGs use Rifles
skill, as they would fire similar rounds to sport and sniper rifles.

If you want simplicity, though, it's easier to group them all under Heavy
Weapons skill. Yet another option would be to do as you suggest and give
them their own skills. I feel this last option is limiting things a bit too
much, though, as it requires players to spend still more skill points than
they already have to on weapons skills.

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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steven Hadfield)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 06:30:01 2002
In 2nd Ed LMG's came under the firearms skill, NOT the
the heavy weapons skill.

Makes for some interesting discrepances between
2nd & 3rd ed characters, because it's now impossible
to be good with LMG's and not be good with MMG's,
HMG's, Assualt Cannons's, etc.

I think this makes a lot of the LMG's much less
useful, due to the lack of any real game difference
between hip firing a HMG & a LMG (Note the GAME
difference - I know that they are very different RW).



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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Danyeal De La Luna)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 10:00:01 2002
On 5/7/02 11:11 PM, "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net> wrote:

>
> Okay, this has gotten WAY away from my original intent, I was asking
> what SR skill it falls under, my rationale for saying that it IS NOT a
> heavy weapon still stands as such, it's NOT a crew served weapon. A LMG
> is the SAW for the US army, the MMG is the M240B for the US Army, and an
> HMG is the M2 .50 Machinegun, either of the LMG or MMG are man portable
> and NOT THAT HARD to fire effectively, I know this as I've carried both.
> I didn't imply that they were in any way related to an assault rifle. I
> DID however state that from personal experience they're not to be
> classified with Heavy Weapons hence the question once again, what would
> you make the skill? Would you decide that there's a new skill called
> LMG's or would you tell me to shut up, suck it up, and list it as a
> Heavy weapon?
>
>
Well, if it really upsets the game for it to be a heavy weapon, then make it
it's own class. Honestly, a troll would treat the lmg like an assault rifle,
the weight not being that great a change to a troll. But that makes matters
confusing....would a shorty have to take a skill in heavy weapons to fire an
assault rifle then? You see the inherent problem. Personally, I keep it
simple...play the rules as they lie.

Lunatec
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 10:15:01 2002
At 01:03 08.05.2002 +0100, Christian Casavant wrote:

<snip>

> > Well - the only other "LMG" of that mark-up I know is the Steyr AUG
HBAR
> > (heavy barrel), and that one is not even in use with an armed force
> > somewhere. clip-fed LMG just don't have enough ammo for their role, IMHO.
> > All other armies deploy either the SAW / M249 / FN Minimi or a 7.62 NATO
> > GPMG. Like a MG3 or a FN MAG/ M240B/ etc.
>
>Haha, I would have said the same thing when I first thought of the LSW!
>However, I spoke with a MOD Light Colonel in charge of the development of the
>LSW battlefield fire mission, and you would be *impressed* at how aggressive
>the rates of fire you can accomplish with this clip fed LMG.

If it would work - possibly. But even if it would ;) , it's nothing against
a MG3 :)

<snip>

>Considering you're only attacking one section's trenches, and you're firing
>660 rounds over 10mins before you finish the assault, which should give some
>idea of what percentage of rounds should be required to kill 8 peeps.

Considering that this means 66 rounds per Minute = little more than 1 round
per second, I don't really know what to think or even say about that. I
never got more than 40 rounds for my rifle anyway ;)


--
Arclight @*********.de
It's camo . . . of course you can't see it.
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 11:30:01 2002
Arclight,


> Considering that this means 66 rounds per Minute = little more than 1 round
> per second, I don't really know what to think or even say about that. I
> never got more than 40 rounds for my rifle anyway ;)

Actually I made a math error there. It would be 2 LSWs and 6 assault rifles. So
that's 510*2 + 150 *6 = 1920 rounds per section over that 8-9 minute period, or
3.5 to 4 rounds per second!

What were you packing? 7.62 SLR, with those nasty 20round mags?

Xian.
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 11:40:01 2002
At 16:24 08.05.2002 +0100, Christian Casavant wrote:

<snip>

>Actually I made a math error there. It would be 2 LSWs and 6 assault
>rifles. So
>that's 510*2 + 150 *6 = 1920 rounds per section over that 8-9 minute
>period, or
>3.5 to 4 rounds per second!

We got 7 G3, 1 MG3. 6 clips w/ 20 rds for the G3, I don't know how many
belts w/ 100 rds each we would be supposed to carry with us, though.

>What were you packing? 7.62 SLR, with those nasty 20round mags?

I'm not that old ;) HK G3 /:) It has FA capability, but that's almost
never used let alone practiced.


--
Arclight @*********.de
Finders keepers - losers weepers
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 12:45:02 2002
> I think this makes a lot of the LMG's much less
> useful, due to the lack of any real game difference
> between hip firing a HMG & a LMG (Note the GAME
> difference - I know that they are very different RW).
*almost passes out from laughter*
oh man, you mean to tell me that you'd LET someone try to hip shoot a
HMG? Dude it's not possible, it's a tripod mounted weapon, the design of
it and the method of the triggers would make it impossible or at least
highly improbable for even a troll!
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 12:50:01 2002
> > difference - I know that they are very different RW).
> *almost passes out from laughter*
> oh man, you mean to tell me that you'd LET someone try to hip shoot a
> HMG? Dude it's not possible, it's a tripod mounted weapon, the design of
> it and the method of the triggers would make it impossible or at least
> highly improbable for even a troll!
>

Plus I dare say the recoil on one of those would probably break said hip
even if it were possible ;)
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 13:10:01 2002
> The reasons for this are quite simple; 1 - Game balance, to minimise
the
> proliferation of trolls with boom guns

ok, this is gonna be a change of topic but I have SERIOUS issues with
this, if a troll is supposed to be 9'3 on average, weigh about 1000
pounds, there's no way in hell they're going to use a regular person's
weapon, they won't be able to get their massive hands onto it, weapons
need to be designed for TROLLS, granted they'll be more expensive,
they're also going to be either much larger in caliber or they're going
to have vastly less recoil due to the extra weight of the gun
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steven Hadfield)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 13:30:02 2002
--- Jonathan <jhogan@**********.nf.net> wrote: > > >
difference - I know that they are very different
> RW).
> > *almost passes out from laughter*
> > oh man, you mean to tell me that you'd LET someone
> try to hip shoot a
> > HMG? Dude it's not possible, it's a tripod mounted
> weapon, the design of
> > it and the method of the triggers would make it
> impossible or at least
> > highly improbable for even a troll!
> >
>
> Plus I dare say the recoil on one of those would
> probably break said hip
> even if it were possible ;)
>


You're missing my point - the RULES don't forbid it!
I know it's impossible, but I was trying to discuss
how the game rules dealt with that situation -
particularly with reference to making LMG's heavy weapons.

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Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 13:40:02 2002
> You're missing my point - the RULES don't forbid it!
> I know it's impossible, but I was trying to discuss
> how the game rules dealt with that situation -
> particularly with reference to making LMG's heavy weapons.
>

I also know that SR is just a game...while FASA and now the new owners have
attempted to keep many things as realistic as possible. It's fantasy. So in
real life it's impossible to hip shoot a HMG...also in real life massive
cybered out the ying yangs trolls don't exist either.

Plus everyone uses house rules. So the books don't "forbid" hip shooting a
HMG...a GM can very well forbid it if he or she wants. Cause as
stated...it's just a game :)
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 15:35:00 2002
On Tue, 7 May 2002 23:11:17 -0500
"Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net> wrote:

>
> Okay, this has gotten WAY away from my original intent, I was asking
> what SR skill it falls under, my rationale for saying that it IS NOT a
> heavy weapon still stands as such, it's NOT a crew served weapon.

By this rationale, an Assault Cannon isn't a heavy weapon either, and
I'm sure you don't think it is :). From what I've seen, SR is using a
different classification of "Heavy Weapons" than real-life militaries.
AFAIK, to the military, any weapon that can be carried and fired by a
single man falls under the category of "small arms".

In SR, "Heavy Weapons" is the skill you use to fire any gun heavier than
an Assault Rifle that's not vehicle-mounted. This includes Light Maghine
Guns and anything heavier.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 16:35:01 2002
In article <5.0.2.1.0.20020507233017.009dfc90@****.artfiles.de>,
Arclight <arclight@*********.de> writes
>At 22:11 07.05.2002 +0100, darren malin wrote:
>
>>You are right in that mose of todays Light Machine Guns are not real
>>heavy in fact most are just assult rifles with a longer barrel and a
>>bi-pod. *The Britsh SA80 assult rifle and its Light Machine Gun
>>vertion the LSW are a goos example of this*.
>
>Well - the only other "LMG" of that mark-up I know is the Steyr AUG
>HBAR (heavy barrel), and that one is not even in use with an armed
>force somewhere.

The classic, hugely popular example is the RPK and its copies, found in
large numbers worldwide.

Canada uses the C7 light machine gun, which is a heavy-barrelled M16A2.

Italy offers LMG versions of their AR70, though I don't know if they
actually use them or not.

There's also the German HK13E, which enjoyed limited sales.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 17:20:02 2002
At 21:30 08.05.2002 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:

<snip>

>>Well - the only other "LMG" of that mark-up I know is the Steyr AUG HBAR

>>(heavy barrel), and that one is not even in use with an armed force somewhere.
>
>The classic, hugely popular example is the RPK and its copies, found in
>large numbers worldwide.

I thought about that one a moment later :)

>Canada uses the C7 light machine gun, which is a heavy-barrelled M16A2.

ok ...

>Italy offers LMG versions of their AR70, though I don't know if they
>actually use them or not.

ok ...

>There's also the German HK13E, which enjoyed limited sales.

I guess you mean the HK23E /21E. Well - those are IMO not comparable.
belt-fed, quick-changeble barrel.


--
Arclight @*********.de
The proper response to a lawful order is not 'Why?'
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Little)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 17:30:01 2002
On Wed, 8 May 2002, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> The classic, hugely popular example is the RPK and its copies, found in
> large numbers worldwide.
>
> Canada uses the C7 light machine gun, which is a heavy-barrelled M16A2.

Canada uses the FN Minimi designated C9.
The personal weapon is the C7 M16A2 which is select fire Semi/Full
The GPMG is the FN MAG designated C6.

We used to use a heavy barrel FN FAL prior to the 5.56 switchover, perhaps
that's what you're thinking of.

../Martin
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 18:30:01 2002
> You're missing my point - the RULES don't forbid it!
> I know it's impossible, but I was trying to discuss
> how the game rules dealt with that situation -
> particularly with reference to making LMG's heavy weapons.
Right, but umm, most LMG's are made to be fired from the hip when in
full auto mode, HMG's aren't possible to fire as such
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 18:30:06 2002
> By this rationale, an Assault Cannon isn't a heavy weapon either, and
> I'm sure you don't think it is :). From what I've seen, SR is using a
> different classification of "Heavy Weapons" than real-life militaries.
> AFAIK, to the military, any weapon that can be carried and fired by a
> single man falls under the category of "small arms".
>
> In SR, "Heavy Weapons" is the skill you use to fire any gun heavier
than
> an Assault Rifle that's not vehicle-mounted. This includes Light
Maghine
> Guns and anything heavier.

No, by this rationale an assault cannon IS a heavy weapon because my
characteristic of being a LMG is the fact that it's firing 5.56 or
something similarly small, has negligible recoil, and is belt fed, a
single shot assault cannon is MUCH larger than 5.56mm is not belt fed,
and umm.....yeah the recoil's far from negligable
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Russ Parker)
Subject: Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Wed May 8 20:00:02 2002
1) I actually had not realized that this was a House Rule, but for us an LMG
can be used with either Assault Rifle skill or Heavy Weapons. Players
Choice.

2) Someone was saying that the LMG should not be a HvyWeap because it was
not crew served.... many of the HvyWeapons are not. Assault Cannon for
example... and there is a HMG (the M107 I think?) that is clearly meant to
be carried not emplaced.

3) Having a crew on a MG is (as I understand it) not at all necessary unless
you are in a somewhat sustained combat environment. It does not benefit you
for firing. The purpose of a second person is to link new ammo belts on and
help change barrels quickly when needed. Also to take over the trigger if
the initial gunner is wounded. Even something like a Mortar is friable my a
single person, it is just faster if you have someone handing you rounds.
Also unlikely that a single person would be able to transport anything but
the lightest of them.

4) MG's etc... truly come into their own when emplaced since they can be
mounted and sighted in as well as having a plentiful supply of Ammo. IMHO
something like a HMG being fired from the hip would be a complete aberration
in today's world. In SR some Trolls or Heavily Cybered Orks/Humans would be
able to pull it off, but still not the norm and not on Full Auto.

5) Another thing about FA is that it is pretty much a broken rule. Getting
hit with FA (even from a machine pistol) is akin to the old "Save or Die"
kind of thing from D&D. Does anyone who has ever fired a FA weapon really
think that you hit with either ALL of the rounds or NONE of them? You FA me
with a 6L MP and that becomes 16D or nothing. Totally bizarre. In our game
we tossed out the base FA and allow either Searching Fire or Suppressing
Fire. If you just want to hose down a single target then you put all the
rounds into the 1m space that they are occupying. Makes FA a bit less of a
complete wildcard. There are still some issues with Searching Fire since it
raises the Power of the attach, and we may rework it a bit to be more like
Suppressive Fire.

Russ
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Thu May 9 05:15:01 2002
According to Derek Hyde, on Wed, 08 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> *almost passes out from laughter*
> oh man, you mean to tell me that you'd LET someone try to hip shoot a
> HMG? Dude it's not possible, it's a tripod mounted weapon, the design of
> it and the method of the triggers would make it impossible or at least
> highly improbable for even a troll!

The trigger isn't an issue; just add a pistol grip with a normal trigger,
and IMHO a troll _should_ probably be able to fire it without any major
problems.

Picturing a troll firing a pistol is harder to do, if you ask me.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Thu May 9 05:15:04 2002
According to Arclight, on Wed, 08 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> >Canada uses the C7 light machine gun, which is a heavy-barrelled M16A2.
>
> ok ...

So do "we" (that is, the Dutch armed forces, which switched to C7 rifles a
few years back).

> >There's also the German HK13E, which enjoyed limited sales.
>
> I guess you mean the HK23E /21E. Well - those are IMO not comparable.
> belt-fed, quick-changeble barrel.

The HK 13E is an earlier weapon, similar to the 23E but fed from a 20-, 30-
or 40-round magazine or a 100-round double drum.

--
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Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Thu May 9 05:15:09 2002
According to Russ Parker, on Thu, 09 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> 5) Another thing about FA is that it is pretty much a broken rule.
> Getting hit with FA (even from a machine pistol) is akin to the old "Save
> or Die" kind of thing from D&D. Does anyone who has ever fired a FA
> weapon really think that you hit with either ALL of the rounds or NONE of
> them?

Time to mention the old house rule again, I suppose :) In my group (as well
as some others) we use a house rule that says that if you fire BF or FA,
you roll in essence an Open Test with the relevant skill. If it beats the
TN, without adding recoil modifiers to that, you hit with a number of
rounds equal to the difference between TN and roll, plus any recoil
compensation you may have. Halve the number (before adding comp.) for a
heavy weapon.

For example, if you fire ten rounds from an SMG with recoil comp 2 at short
range with no modifiers (TN 4), and you roll a 9, you hit with 9 - 4 + 2 =
7 rounds.

This encourages players to fire off more rounds than they would under the
standard rules, as it will still allow them to hit with some of them,
rather than the "all or nothing" proposal that autofire normally is in SR.

--
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Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Thu May 9 12:25:01 2002
In article
<Pine.LNX.4.10.10205081843230.6940-100000@*******.vegamuse.org>, Martin
Little <grimjack@******.com> writes
>On Wed, 8 May 2002, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>
>> The classic, hugely popular example is the RPK and its copies, found in
>> large numbers worldwide.
>>
>> Canada uses the C7 light machine gun, which is a heavy-barrelled M16A2.
>
>Canada uses the FN Minimi designated C9.

Yep - reference book got it wrong. The M16A2 LMG is used by a few
Central and South American countries, though, according to a more recent
work.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: > Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Thu May 9 12:25:05 2002
In article <5.0.2.1.0.20020508231025.009f7130@****.artfiles.de>,
Arclight <arclight@*********.de> writes
>At 21:30 08.05.2002 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>>There's also the German HK13E, which enjoyed limited sales.
>
>I guess you mean the HK23E /21E. Well - those are IMO not comparable.
>belt-fed, quick-changeble barrel.

No, I mean their predecessor the HK13, a LMG version of the HK33 that
was developed into the HK23 family.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Light Machine Guns - they're ARE heavy weapons
Date: Thu May 9 15:40:00 2002
In article
<D54BF26DB5A7D511B36B00508B9596A4025F6ECE@**********.peregrine.com>,
Russ Parker <russ.parker@*********.com> writes
>2) Someone was saying that the LMG should not be a HvyWeap because it was
>not crew served.... many of the HvyWeapons are not. Assault Cannon for
>example... and there is a HMG (the M107 I think?) that is clearly meant to
>be carried not emplaced.

A HMG is a crew-served weapon, if only because of the weight of the
ammunition.

>3) Having a crew on a MG is (as I understand it) not at all necessary unless
>you are in a somewhat sustained combat environment. It does not benefit you
>for firing. The purpose of a second person is to link new ammo belts on and
>help change barrels quickly when needed.

Both very important roles, plus the #2 gunner for a belt-fed weapon can
help guide the ammunition: surprisingly useful, given an ammo belt's
propensity to snag on anything and the way the thin metal links twist
easily. Carrying a belt-fed weapon through woodland is a good way to
discover the virtues of magazine feed :)

(Some weapons, especially in 5.56mm, can carry decent amounts of
ammunition in boxes or bags - the M249 is an excellent example - but
7.62mm weapons use bulkier rounds)

We used to use the L7A1 / FN MAG / M240 as a section weapon (one per),
and it worked adequately, but our unit tended to prefer using Brens -
our rifle magazines would fit, and it was easier for one man to carry
and fire a magazine-fed weapon - especially on patrol.


>Also to take over the trigger if
>the initial gunner is wounded. Even something like a Mortar is friable my a
>single person, it is just faster if you have someone handing you rounds.

A 155mm howitzer can be loaded and fired by one person, just not quickly
or efficiently... :)

>Also unlikely that a single person would be able to transport anything but
>the lightest of them.

That's why they're "crew-served" - you need more than one person to
carry the weapon and a useful amount of ammunition.

>4) MG's etc... truly come into their own when emplaced since they can be
>mounted and sighted in as well as having a plentiful supply of Ammo.

Nope (though a dug-in GPMG(SF) is something to fear). Machine guns are
really effective at forcing an enemy to stop moving and take cover;
either to pin them in place for an assault, to stop _their_ assault
developing, or to make them stay put long enough long enough to call
supporting arms down onto (anything from 81s to a MLRS strike)

>IMHO
>something like a HMG being fired from the hip would be a complete aberration
>in today's world. In SR some Trolls or Heavily Cybered Orks/Humans would be
>able to pull it off, but still not the norm and not on Full Auto.

I'd allow it, but without very good results. Too much weight and recoil
for it to work well, though someone stupid or desperate might try it.

>5) Another thing about FA is that it is pretty much a broken rule.

No argument there :)

--
Paul J. Adam

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