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Message no. 1
From: Matthew Johnson <mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:11:37 -0600
Okay.
A fool GM that I know wants to implement a lightsaber into his game. The
first thing I did was shake my head and look skyward. If anyone wants to
discuss the plausibility of a lightsaber in 2060, please do so, even if it
is to shoot it down. the way I see it, you couldn't do such a thing without
a lot of power and stuff to get the energy output up high enough. But, I'm
not an electrical engineer (yet), so there are probably others who could
discuss this better than I.

---------------------------
Matthew Johnson
mjohnson@*.arizona.edu
ftp://150.135.184.121 login anonymous
----------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Spider Murphy <crickel@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:32:40 -0500
Matthew Johnson wrote:

> Okay.
> A fool GM that I know wants to implement a lightsaber into his game. The
> first thing I did was shake my head and look skyward. If anyone wants to
> discuss the plausibility of a lightsaber in 2060, please do so, even if it
> is to shoot it down. the way I see it, you couldn't do such a thing without
> a lot of power and stuff to get the energy output up high enough. But, I'm
> not an electrical engineer (yet), so there are probably others who could
> discuss this better than I.

My guess would be you'd have to have an awful lot of wattage to allow that
laser a decent damage. We're talking around hand-held nuclear reactors, here.
Either that, or about ten seconds worth of laser action. Interestingly enough,
most SR combats I run only seem to last that long, if not shorter. Need to make
the opposition tougher...

Back to the topic. Well, let's see... how does one build a lightsaber, anyway?
How can you focus the light and keep it in a nice, sword shaped package rather
than having it shoot all over the place? The only way I know of to bend light
is to bend the space it's travelling in.. in other words, gravity generators.
Again, you're going to need a lot of power. And I think that's a little beyond
SR Technology...

In simple terms... No. :) If he goes ahead and makes it, feel free to take one
apart for the gravity generator technology, and then mis-apply it to your
heart's content.

Fun things to do with gravity generators of this scale!

1. Gravity grenades! Throw them, and in a ten meter radius, everything suddenly
has fourty gees acting on it. More than enough to kill most humans due to all
the blood running to their feet, blood pressure causing arteries to burst,
causing massive hemmorages. Or, alternatively, reverse the polarity, and throw
everyone way up in the air, to fall back down to the earth.

2. Booby traps! Why string monowire in a corridor when you can just put one of
these babies beneath a floor plate? Someone steps on the thing without being
authorized, it activates and splatters the poor guy all over the ceiling.

3. Vehicles! Due to their nature, almost completely silent transportation to
and from your shadowrunning sites!

4. Cloaking technology! Just bend the light around you! Even better than
Ruthinieum, because they can't see you, because the light never even touches
you! Disadvantage - Can't see anything.. you aren't receiving any light.

Yes, there are so many ways that this technology could be used. Why would
someone limit it to a simple lightsaber? And if you've always wanted to build a
skyscraper that started narrow at the bottom, and widened at the top, this is
your ticket. Just watch out for the power outtages.

Spider Murphy
Message no. 3
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:24:07 -0800
At 14:11 10/23/97 -0600, Matthew Johnson wrote:
>Okay.
>A fool GM that I know wants to implement a lightsaber into his game. The
>first thing I did was shake my head and look skyward. If anyone wants to
>discuss the plausibility of a lightsaber in 2060, please do so, even if it
>is to shoot it down. the way I see it, you couldn't do such a thing without
>a lot of power and stuff to get the energy output up high enough. But, I'm
>not an electrical engineer (yet), so there are probably others who could
>discuss this better than I.

If you want a lightsaber in a Shadowrun game, just invent a sustained spell
that creates a bar of white-hot energy that moves with a hilt that you
provide.
Spell lock it to the hilt. When you turn the lock on and off, you get the
lightsaber effect. Sounds perfect for the Physical Magician who learned
to use their powers from watching the Star Wars movies over and over again;
get him together with the rigger calling himself Han Solo, his sasquatch
sidekick Chewbacca, and the fixer calling herself Leia, and you're set.

If you want to make it work through technology, you have a *lot* of
ramifications to work through. I can't think of any way to get a
lightsaber-like effect without introducing force fields into your
technology, which means there will be lots of other pieces of tech
springing up as well, like Trek-style shields for people, vehicles,
and installations, and possibly even antigravity vehicles. The power
requirements are also impressive, unless you introduce a disruptor field
that only requires energy when you disrupt things (which would mean
even more toys). I'd advise against making them available in a
campaign.

On the other hand... if you want to play around with the "alien technology"
notion and have it be a Unique Item that every corporate scientist in the
world wants to study and that tends to attract huge numbers of hits by
black ops teams with instructions "get the lightsaber intact at any cost"...
you might have some fun running the lightsaber user ragged before his
toy gets taken away from him...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 4
From: Matthew Johnson <mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:39:09 -0600
> If you want a lightsaber in a Shadowrun game, just invent a sustained
spell
> that creates a bar of white-hot energy that moves with a hilt that you
> provide.
> Spell lock it to the hilt. When you turn the lock on and off, you get
the
> lightsaber effect.
(snip)
> If you want to make it work through technology, you have a *lot* of
> ramifications to work through. I can't think of any way to get a
> lightsaber-like effect without introducing force fields into your
> technology, which means there will be lots of other pieces of tech
> springing up as well, like Trek-style shields for people, vehicles,
> and installations, and possibly even antigravity vehicles. The power
> requirements are also impressive, unless you introduce a disruptor field
> that only requires energy when you disrupt things (which would mean
> even more toys). I'd advise against making them available in a
> campaign.
>

thanks for the input. I don't like the technological idea of a lightsaber
at the moment, but anchoring a spell to a hilt is a good idea for a mage
obsessed with Luke Skywalker.

---------------------------
Matthew Johnson
mjohnson@*.arizona.edu
ftp://150.135.184.121 login anonymous
----------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:35:18 -0800
At 16:32 10/23/97 -0500, Spider Murphy wrote:
>Back to the topic. Well, let's see... how does one build a lightsaber,
anyway?
>How can you focus the light and keep it in a nice, sword shaped package
rather
>than having it shoot all over the place? The only way I know of to bend light
>is to bend the space it's travelling in.. in other words, gravity generators.
>Again, you're going to need a lot of power. And I think that's a little
beyond
>SR Technology...

If you can control gravity well enough to make a lightsaber, there's no way
you're going to come up with one except as a toy. The military applications
of that kind of gravitational gradient are much more terrifying. The one
around the lightsaber would probably rip nearby matter apart from tidal
effects (and have its own pocket whirlwind surrounding it); the light
would just be a special effect.

>4. Cloaking technology! Just bend the light around you!

And bend the air around you... you'd be able to hear the vehicle from
the shriek of metal as the storm of air rushing over the hull heated it
to incandescence...

:-)

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 6
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:54:23 PDT
>>A fool GM that I know wants to implement a lightsaber into his game.
The
>>first thing I did was shake my head and look skyward. If anyone wants
to
>>discuss the plausibility of a lightsaber in 2060, please do so, even
if it
>>is to shoot it down.

I can actuallysee away to do a (non magical) light saber using
technology already invented. It couldn't be built today, and probaly
never, but...
Take a Hologram setup(the real, glass-plate kind that creates a
3-light-waveform in space when hit by coherent light, not the "silvery"
kind). Make a hologram of, say a sword blade (a white one, so the
image is bright). Build a REALY honking powerful hologram projector (the
part we can't do today) andputit in someportable unit (yeah, right).
Now you have blade of light so bright it would burn through anything.
Unfortunately, you don't want to ever look at it or even get to close...
The other possibilty is magnetically contained plasma, but that
has more problems than i want to think .


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psycotic - Einstien

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 7
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:16:27 -0800
At 15:54 10/23/97 PDT, Mon goose wrote:
> Take a Hologram setup(the real, glass-plate kind that creates a
>3-light-waveform in space when hit by coherent light, not the "silvery"
>kind).

IIRC, the glass-plate style of hologram still can only show objects
about the size of the glass plate, and only to someone in front of
the glass plate. (I can't recall any of those making a freestanding
hologram that you could see from a position perpendicular to the plate.)

> The other possibilty is magnetically contained plasma, but that
>has more problems than i want to think .

Like generating the magnetic field without having something at the other
end...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 8
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:10:16 EDT
On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:54:23 PDT Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
writes:

[snip holo-gram]

Of course you could use a highpowered laser, and a mirror on the end of a
wire....:) :)
(just hope the mirror doesn't waver any, 'cause the nearest target if the
laser deviates is Mr. I-Want-To-Be-A-Jedi-Knight-Too)

Seriously...

> The other possibilty is magnetically contained plasma, but that
>has more problems than i want to think .

Oh, Yeah.... just what *I* want to be carrying around...

~Tim
Message no. 9
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:10:16 EDT
On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:11:37 -0600 Matthew Johnson writes:
>Okay. A fool GM that I know wants to implement a lightsaber into his
game. The
>first thing I did was shake my head and look skyward. If anyone wants to
>discuss the plausibility of a lightsaber in 2060, please do so, even if
it
>is to shoot it down. the way I see it, you couldn't do such a thing
without
>a lot of power and stuff to get the energy output up high enough. But,
I'm
>not an electrical engineer (yet), so there are probably others who could
>discuss this better than I.

A technological 'light saber'?... not in SR (Try Mage, or Rifts... well
OK, it's not tech in Mage either..). The physics just don't work.

However, three words: Sustained Damaging Manipulation.

~Tim
Message no. 10
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:31:42 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-23 17:19:31 EDT, mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU writes:

> A fool GM that I know wants to implement a lightsaber into his game. The
> first thing I did was shake my head and look skyward. If anyone wants to
> discuss the plausibility of a lightsaber in 2060, please do so, even if it
> is to shoot it down. the way I see it, you couldn't do such a thing
without
> a lot of power and stuff to get the energy output up high enough. But, I'm
> not an electrical engineer (yet), so there are probably others who could
> discuss this better than I.
>
Actually, a friend in the games here has invented what he calls a
"Lightsabre", using a Laser Rangefinder and an MP Laser. The Rangefinder
and the Laser Emitter are both implemented into a wand/rod shaped object.
The Rangefinder is set to about a meter or so from the emitter. When the
rangefind detects an obstacle, it triggers the laser emitter for the duration
of the contact. Sure it's fast, but it's great...

-K
Message no. 11
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:36:24 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-23 19:23:45 EDT, mjohnson@*.ARIZONA.EDU (Matthew
Johnson) writes:

>
> thanks for the input. I don't like the technological idea of a lightsaber
> at the moment, but anchoring a spell to a hilt is a good idea for a mage
> obsessed with Luke Skywalker.
>
> -
And I would like to point out that such a spell (actually a couple varieties
of such) I think are in the Archives somewhere....where is the "Magesword"
spell at anyway? I can't find it in Paolo's.

-K
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:49:55 +0100
Tim Cooper said on 23:10/23 Oct 97...

> A technological 'light saber'?... not in SR (Try Mage, or Rifts... well
> OK, it's not tech in Mage either..). The physics just don't work.

Well, in Mage you could just _let_ the physics work... ;)

> However, three words: Sustained Damaging Manipulation.

That'd be the way to go IMO too. Design a DM that causes a meter-long
blade of light to appear from your hand, lock it to a sword hilt or
something similar (even a piece of pipe would do, really) and there's your
lightsaber. The only thing I see happening (or not happening) here is that
you won't be able to block other peoples' lightsabers with it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside you head.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: adonis <adonis@******.COM>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:28:54 -0400
Okay...I had to jump in this one...

How about if you used a telescoping baton type object housed in a hilt.
Then have some sort of energy flow along the length of the extended baton,
which would activate only when the baton was extended? Of course, being
non-scientifical, I have NO idead what type of energy or power requirements
this would need.

SOOiCydE
Message no. 14
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:01:20 -0800
At 12:28 10/24/97 -0400, adonis wrote:
>Okay...I had to jump in this one...
>
>How about if you used a telescoping baton type object housed in a hilt.
>Then have some sort of energy flow along the length of the extended baton,
>which would activate only when the baton was extended? Of course, being
>non-scientifical, I have NO idead what type of energy or power requirements
>this would need.

The "some sort of energy" is the problem. There aren't any forms of energy
that you could manipulate that way, as far as modern physics is concerned.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 15
From: "Trollman,the fire elementalist formerly known as whitewing."
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:05:06 -0500
> And I would like to point out that such a spell (actually a couple varieties
> of such) I think are in the Archives somewhere....where is the "Magesword"
> spell at anyway? I can't find it in Paolo's.
>

Look under weapons,not magic.
Message no. 16
From: adonis <adonis@******.COM>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:29:45 -0400
> >How about if you used a telescoping baton type object housed in a hilt.
> >Then have some sort of energy flow along the length of the extended
baton,
> >which would activate only when the baton was extended? Of course, being
> >non-scientifical, I have NO idead what type of energy or power
requirements
> >this would need.
>
> The "some sort of energy" is the problem. There aren't any forms of
energy
> that you could manipulate that way, as far as modern physics is
concerned.
>
Hmmm...couldn't you have a ring of micro-laser emitters in the top of the
hilt, that when activated, would terminate at the end of the baton. There
would have to be a small cap fixture to terminate the beams. This would
effectively nullify any "stabbing" abilities of the weapon, but it would
still slice pretty well! I don't remember Vader doing any "lunge" moves
anyway :)

SOOiCydE
Message no. 17
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:21:29 PDT
>Hmmm...couldn't you have a ring of micro-laser emitters in the top of
the
>hilt, that when activated, would terminate at the end of the baton.
There
>would have to be a small cap fixture to terminate the beams. This
would
>effectively nullify any "stabbing" abilities of the weapon, but it
would
>still slice pretty well! I don't remember Vader doing any "lunge"
moves
>anyway :)
>

Awfully powerful "micro Emitters"! Also, I've seemmultipleideasthat
call for a mirror (in this case, justa "small cap fixture") to terminate
the beam. HUH? When the beam hits something,it reflects, refracts, or
is converted to heat. Ideally you'd want to refflect / refract the
beam, but i can't see reflecting it back down towards the source being
good for the lazer or its user.
I could posibly see setting up some loop system... Any alignment
problems though...
BTW, just what the hell is the centurion lazer ax? Besides
generally pointless, I mean :)


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psycotic - Einstien

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 18
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:24:34 -0400
At 04:32 PM 10/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Matthew Johnson wrote:
>
>> Okay.
>> A fool GM that I know wants to implement a lightsaber into his game. The
>> first thing I did was shake my head and look skyward. If anyone wants to
>> discuss the plausibility of a lightsaber in 2060, please do so, even if it
>> is to shoot it down. the way I see it, you couldn't do such a thing without
>> a lot of power and stuff to get the energy output up high enough. But, I'm
>> not an electrical engineer (yet), so there are probably others who could
>> discuss this better than I.
>
>My guess would be you'd have to have an awful lot of wattage to allow that
>laser a decent damage. We're talking around hand-held nuclear reactors, here.
>Either that, or about ten seconds worth of laser action. Interestingly
enough,
>most SR combats I run only seem to last that long, if not shorter. Need to
make
>the opposition tougher...
>
>Back to the topic. Well, let's see... how does one build a lightsaber,
anyway?
>How can you focus the light and keep it in a nice, sword shaped package
rather
>than having it shoot all over the place? The only way I know of to bend light
>is to bend the space it's travelling in.. in other words, gravity generators.
>Again, you're going to need a lot of power. And I think that's a little
beyond
>SR Technology...

I think the way it would be built would be to set up some kind of interference
pattern so that you get constructive interference for the first meter or
so, and then the various light waves interfere destructively past that
point. To do that, you'd need a whole bunch of laser sources of different
frequencies and phases, and I have no idea whether it would be at all
feasible let alone in a little easy to carry handle. Just get a damn
monosword and glue that light rope stuff from NERPS on the back!
<possible :stuff submission?>
--DT
Message no. 19
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:28:19 +0000
|I think the way it would be built would be to set up some kind of interference
|pattern so that you get constructive interference for the first meter or
|so, and then the various light waves interfere destructively past that
|point. To do that, you'd need a whole bunch of laser sources of different
|frequencies and phases, and I have no idea whether it would be at all
|feasible let alone in a little easy to carry handle. Just get a damn
|monosword and glue that light rope stuff from NERPS on the back!

I'm afraid that idea, although totaly impossible using LASERS in real life,
probably comes closest...

(We're doing Fourier series, transforms and analysis at the moment....)

*aaaaaaaaargh!*
(Half hearted aaargh... Can't muster up the enthusiasm.)
--
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| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 20
From: Les Ward <lward@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: lightsaber
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:45:38 -0500
>> And I would like to point out that such a spell (actually a couple varieties
>> of such) I think are in the Archives somewhere....where is the
"Magesword"
>> spell at anyway? I can't find it in Paolo's.
>>
>
>Look under weapons,not magic.

It's also in the NAGEE, though when I gathered the Collected version I was
sorely temped to remove it and several other spells as being way to
munchkinesue for words.

The Collected NAGEE is on Paolo's site, and can also be found at:

http://pobox.com/~wordman/personal/nagee.html

Wordman

Further Reading

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