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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:53:34 -0700
Caric wrote:
|
| > What kind of limits do GMs usually put on starting characters?

About the easiest way to limit starting character is to
restrict the ammount of starting resources they get. Say,
don't allow a starting character to assign a priority of A
or B to Resources.

Or, change the starting priorities if you want to get
really drastic (C, C, C, D, and E).

Or, (last one :) pick a number as the highest *anything*
can be. For example if you picked 4, starting characters
couldn't have stats or skills higher than 4, equipment with
ratings higher than 4, or equipment with availability codes
higher than 4 (munchkins hate this option <sly GM grin>).

YYMV.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 2
From: "Kruse, Denny" <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:36:00 MST
>About the easiest way to limit starting character is to
>restrict the ammount of starting resources they get. Say,
>don't allow a starting character to assign a priority of A
>or B to Resources.
>
>Or, change the starting priorities if you want to get
>really drastic (C, C, C, D, and E).
>
>Or, (last one :) pick a number as the highest *anything*
>can be. For example if you picked 4, starting characters
>couldn't have stats or skills higher than 4, equipment with
>ratings higher than 4, or equipment with availability codes
>higher than 4 (munchkins hate this option <sly GM grin>).
>
>YYMV.
>
>-David

Those are good ideas, and simple. A while back our group was considering
reducing the resources themselves by a straight % across the board. If you
just limit them to 4 in anything, then the PCs would be more "spread out".
More skills but lower ratings. I'm no saying that's good or bad, just
pointing out the different approaches.

I like the idea of weaker starting characters but keeping the karma awards
about the same. So the players can get the idea they are improving more.
And it will always make the rating 6 skills and stats more work.

Or, the DM could take a Champions like approach and give everyone 3's for
stats then have them pick between resources and a number of karma points to
spend. The karma would then be used in the normal way to create and raise
skill, stats, and whatever. You could even gain karma by lowering your
inital stats below 3.

Under the given character gen rules, I sometimes feel like I'm already
coming into an established character. I believe the asummption is the
character has already done minor shadowruns or other
adventure-karma-earning-type-things.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:12:23 -0700
Kruse, Denny wrote:
|
[snip: ideas for limiting starting characters]
|
| Those are good ideas, and simple. A while back our group was considering
| reducing the resources themselves by a straight % across the board.

Good idea. The simple ones seem to work the best :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 4
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:54:04 -0500
At 12:36 PM 2/12/97 MST, Kruse, Denny spouted this nonsense:

We've done a few things with limiting what the players had to start, to
avoid munchkinism... Sadly, we ended up with a team of phys-ads and fixer
wannabes... And these guys could NOT play thhose characters...

We've restricted various things... No cyberware that costs more than 1
point of essence or body (though you could get multiple items, as long as
they were compatible). Nothing above a rifle (Basically anything you could
buy at the local sporting goods shop semi-legally), etc...

What finally worked was simply having the players make their characters,
and explicitly telling them that anything they had, the opponents would
have... And since several of the characters couldn't afford things like
wired 3 or panthe assualts, my players limited themselves to reasonable
gear (After hinting about how fast the rigger and shaman would die in a
firefight)...:)

But limiting them to rating 4's or 5's seems to work well... Maybe even
modifying starting rescources, starting attribute points, and starting
skill points...:)

>Under the given character gen rules, I sometimes feel like I'm already
>coming into an established character. I believe the asummption is the
>character has already done minor shadowruns or other
>adventure-karma-earning-type-things.
>
Actually, it has been stated that you are coming into semi-established
characters that have done a bit of minor running work... I'm not really
sure where it says that though...

Your character is definately a step above the average (meta)human...:)

Bull
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 5
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:05:28 EST
It's been my experience (limited though it is) that stressing the
character's story ower their stats has worked rather well. At the moment,
I've got a fairly mundane (though pretty magic-resistant) group of
characters, with no more than 2 pair of cybereyes among them (both of
those guys are mundane humans), only two non-human characters (granted,
one of them's a shapeshifter, but...), only three characters who are at
all magickally active (one doesn't know he is (earlier mentioned
nega-sorceror), one is a shaman (afore-mentioned shapeshifter), one is a
NullMage, something I'm still working out). The RPing is starting (just
starting) to peek out of the players, but I've got to do some work with
two of the other five players (not counting myself).

But, as I said, if you force the players to make their characters' stats
jive with the accompanying backgrounds, then you're far less likely to
wind up with superheroes in your campaign...it's pretty hard to justify
why your character has a PAC, or a minigun, or a rocket launcher:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:06:38 +0100
Kruse, Denny said on 12:36/12 Feb 97...

> Under the given character gen rules, I sometimes feel like I'm already
> coming into an established character. I believe the asummption is the
> character has already done minor shadowruns or other
> adventure-karma-earning-type-things.

I've always assumed that too. GMs could limit characters in the gear and
skills they take, to represent people new to shadowrunning, but all the
published archetypes look like they're supposed to be experienced runners
to me.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Watching re-runs on my TV.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 7
From: Fastjack <uc298@*****.UNICAN.ES>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:02:10 +0100
In my campaign i only restrict specific equipment,as APDS,military
weapons,military vehicles...all the equipment that is very difficult get
in the streets.I dont want that a starter character has 1000 APDS bullets!

About the skills i dont restrict them.We always suppose that the PC have
2-3 shadowruns did before start to play.So we determine what were these
imaginary runs and the contacts,friends etc have their history relationed
with these "old" runs.

But all my PC always MUST have a lifestyle that allows him to have a
home.I hate Shadowrunners that say "we are professionals!"...and live in
the streets...If you were a Mr Johnson will you have a deal with
Shadowrunners who live in a box in the street?





*************************************************
* *
* >>>>>[Tu ciberterminal sera mia.Piensalo bien *
* cuando te encuentras en lo mas oscuro de la *
* matriz]<<<<< *
* -Fastjack<18:05:46/12-22-52> *
*************************************************
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:56:01 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, ArcLight wrote:
/
/ For Attributes I limited
/ Intelligence and Quickness to 5 or lower; this depends on the type of
/ character. I never understood why those Sams had to earn the money by
/ fighting while being super-intelligent. I know that this is a problem
/ of Intelligence being a Cyber-Attribute.

Intelligence does not equal knowledge.

A Sam with high intelligence is a Sam who can think on his feet and
quickly analyze a situation. If he has common sense (a smart player :)
he can take advantage of this. The Sam is also generally highly aware
of his environment and what's going on around him.

Just because he has a high intelligence doesn't mean that he has a lot
of knowledge. Knowledge comes from knowledge skills. Heck, a
character with a 6 intelligence might not even be literate.

Sure, a character with high intelligence can default to knowledge
skills, but per the SR3 rules you would have to have an outrageously
high intelligence (8+) to be as good as a person with an average level
of knowledge. Also, keep in mind that when it comes to defaulting the
GM has the last word and can say "no" when a character wants to
default from an attribute to a skill.

All this doesn't mean that you should discontinue limiting intelligence
and quickness in your game though :) How you run your game is up to
you.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 9
From: Joseph Kerian <jkerian@****.UDALLAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:12:06 -0600
I've been considering allowing characters to 'specialize' attributes as
well as skills. I suspect it would lead to munchkinning, but it's still an
idea.
Body: Damage Resistance,Healing
Strength: Damage in Combat, ? (Load? does anyone use that?)
Quickness: Reaction, Combat Sense(pool), Running Speed, Reloading Weapons
Intelligence: Reaction, Combat Sense(pool), Perception, Knowledge
Willpower: Spell Resistance, Interrogation/Negotiation Resistance(Stubborness?)
Charisma: Social(etiquette), Spiritual(spirits), among a few others.

I would limit the maximum of the specialization to 6. So for 5 attribute
points a street sam has a 6 factored into his reaction, but a 4 for the
purposes of combat pool, perception and knowledge default. Skills would
probably default to the central value (5 in the above case).
You also might want to consider combining combat pool and reaction under
Quickness and Intelligence.
Or, you could turn this system on it's head, subtract six from every
starting char's attributes, and effectively require specializations.


>For the mere cost of a Thaum, ArcLight wrote:
>/
>/ For Attributes I limited
>/ Intelligence and Quickness to 5 or lower; this depends on the type of
>/ character. I never understood why those Sams had to earn the money by
>/ fighting while being super-intelligent. I know that this is a problem
>/ of Intelligence being a Cyber-Attribute.
>
>Intelligence does not equal knowledge.
>
>A Sam with high intelligence is a Sam who can think on his feet and
>quickly analyze a situation. If he has common sense (a smart player :)
>he can take advantage of this. The Sam is also generally highly aware
>of his environment and what's going on around him.
>
>Just because he has a high intelligence doesn't mean that he has a lot
>of knowledge. Knowledge comes from knowledge skills. Heck, a
>character with a 6 intelligence might not even be literate.
>
>Sure, a character with high intelligence can default to knowledge
>skills, but per the SR3 rules you would have to have an outrageously
>high intelligence (8+) to be as good as a person with an average level
>of knowledge. Also, keep in mind that when it comes to defaulting the
>GM has the last word and can say "no" when a character wants to
>default from an attribute to a skill.
>
>All this doesn't mean that you should discontinue limiting intelligence
>and quickness in your game though :) How you run your game is up to
>you.
>
>-David B.
>--
>"Earn what you have been given."
>--
>email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
>http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm


/\
|| C U L8r,
||
|| -={*}=-
|| --Joe--
||
|| --Building Administrator, St Thomas More Acad,kerian@******.nodak.edu--
|| --Computer Lab Help Desk(Inactive), U Dallas,jkerian@****.udallas.edu--
|| --Wizard, S/C Administrator, Tallac@***** of Hope, ashes.telmaron.com--
|| -- Warlord Malcolm, LOrDs--
||
||
/||\
<===**====>
\||/
||
||
()
()
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:35:04 +1000
Joseph Kerian writes:
> || -- Warlord Malcolm, LOrDs--

Piece of advice... cut down that sig of yours before posting anything to
usenet, or you'll really find out what Warlording means...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 11
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:52:45 -0600
On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:12:06 -0600 Joseph Kerian
<jkerian@****.UDALLAS.EDU> writes:
> I've been considering allowing characters to 'specialize' attributes as
>well as skills. I suspect it would lead to munchkinning, but it's still
an
>idea.
>Body: Damage Resistance,Healing
>Strength: Damage in Combat, ? (Load? does anyone use that?)

Sorry, I can't resist ... LOAD??? That's perverse! ;)

>Quickness: Reaction, Combat Sense(pool), Running Speed, Reloading
Weapons
>Intelligence: Reaction, Combat Sense(pool), Perception, Knowledge
>Willpower: Spell Resistance, Interrogation/Negotiation
>Resistance(Stubborness?)
>Charisma: Social(etiquette), Spiritual(spirits), among a few others.
<SNIP>

It may be a nice idea, but ...
1) each attribute covers more than you have listed (if you try to flesh
it out so each attribute is better covered, without overlap, you'll
bonkers. ;),
2) it could get too complex/out of hand (especially in SR3 ...)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 12
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:49:37 EST
jkerian@****.UDALLAS.EDU> writes:

> > I've been considering allowing characters to 'specialize' attributes as
> >well as skills. I suspect it would lead to munchkinning, but it's still
> an
> >idea.
> >Body: Damage Resistance,Healing
> >Strength: Damage in Combat, ? (Load? does anyone use that?)
> >Quickness: Reaction, Combat Sense(pool), Running Speed, Reloading
> Weapons
> >Intelligence: Reaction, Combat Sense(pool), Perception, Knowledge
> >Willpower: Spell Resistance, Interrogation/Negotiation
> >Resistance(Stubborness?)
> >Charisma: Social(etiquette), Spiritual(spirits), among a few others.
> <SNIP>

ok - I don't see any real problem with this... I don't even care if it leads
to
"munchkinning" (whatever that means). [that's a GM problem... not a
player problem. if your players can get away with it... then the problem
is the game. If everyone likes playing that way - the breakout your 15S
handgun and blast away!]

my question is this: why? what game purpose does it serve? all you are
adding is extra complications - and making Chrisma cheaper for all
non-summoners.

later,
andy
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Limiting Starting Characters
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:04:51 -0600
<topic- "specializing" attributes>

:> >Body: Damage Resistance,Healing

I might go so far as to add "overflow" to that list- which would
probably discourage Body specialization.

:> >Strength: Damage in Combat, ? (Load? does anyone use that?)

Hell yes, we use load. Its one reason I often DON'T play trolls- get
knocked out, and nobody can move you! Also, having extra equipment and
armor can be a big help (ask the military). With a 2 STR, you are pressed
to carry more than 1 gun and an armored jacket! On the other hand, it is a
bit silly that bulk is so poorly accounted for in determining what
equipment you can carry without penalty.

:> >Quickness: Reaction, Combat Sense(pool), Running Speed, Reloading
:> Weapons
:> >Intelligence: Reaction, Combat Sense(pool), Perception, Knowledge
:> >Willpower: Spell Resistance, Interrogation/Negotiation
:> >Resistance(Stubborness?)
:> >Charisma: Social(etiquette), Spiritual(spirits), among a few others.

Charisma also plays a major part in intimidation. I'd split that
"social" down a bit, or leave it out (since in SR3, its a linked
attribute).

:my question is this: why? what game purpose does it serve?

I think it could serve a useful game purpose, but would be much
simpler if implemented as 1 point Edges and Flaws- the SRC lists a few
like that for body. I also have a few like that on my page at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chamber/5072/srmnvbr.htm
Check out the "edges and flaws" file, it just has them for strength
and quickness, but all the other effects above could work also. I'd
suggest only allowing 1 edge and 1 flaw per attribute (max), however, and
not multiple levels in any.

Mongoose

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