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Message no. 1
From: Ed equine@***********.com
Subject: Line Of Sight
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 09:18:32 -0600
How can one determine LOS when shooting something? I have a player who can
shoot a bow 180 meters and hit a target between the eyes. The only problem
is how can I determin if he can see the target that well? Would I use the
perception table or is there something else I am missing?

Ed

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Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
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Message no. 2
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Line Of Sight
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:07:41 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Ed wrote:

> How can one determine LOS when shooting something? I have a player who can
> shoot a bow 180 meters and hit a target between the eyes. The only problem
> is how can I determin if he can see the target that well? Would I use the
> perception table or is there something else I am missing?

Yup, it's simple. If you can see it, you have LOS. If you can't
see it, then something's in your way and you don't have LOS.
With archery, however, it may be a little more difficult,
especially at extreme ranges. This is primarily because arrows travel in
much less "flat" trajectories than bullets. As such, even if you can see
a target (and thus have LOS), you may not have a clean shot, especially if
there are overhead obstacles between you and your target. A good example
would be in a dense pine forest - there's so little light reaching the
forest floor that there's not much undergrowth. As such, you can clearly
see your target. But in order to hit that target at extreme ranges, you'd
need to give your arrow a lofty trajectory, which would bring it into the
branches overhead and probably deflect it.
Unfortunately, for cases like these, it's really up to GM
discretion. Shooting 180m on open ground is fine. Shooting 180m down a
hallway with 3m ceilings is not. Sorry I don't have a hard-and-fast
answer for you.

Marc
Message no. 3
From: Ed equine@******.net
Subject: Line Of Sight
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:21:02 -0600
At 02:07 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
> Unfortunately, for cases like these, it's really up to GM
>discretion. Shooting 180m on open ground is fine. Shooting 180m down a
>hallway with 3m ceilings is not. Sorry I don't have a hard-and-fast
>answer for you.

The answer you gave is pretty good. I do not even think of the shooter
needing to aim high for something so far away. Thanks alot.

I am still wondering how LOS works for shooting things. Just because I can
make something out does not mean I can Call A Shot on it. Then again with
the SR rules I guess you can.

Ed

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Message no. 4
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: Line Of Sight
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:25:28 -0800
At 01:21 PM 3/9/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>I am still wondering how LOS works for shooting things. Just because I can
>make something out does not mean I can Call A Shot on it. Then again with
>the SR rules I guess you can.
>
> Ed
>
<snip .sig that is too big> ;)

Why not? I am not even an outstanding shooter by USMC standards. By that
I mean I qualify as low expert. I'd say about 1/3 of Marines qualify in
the expert category, most of them better than me.

Now, with an M16A2, WITHOUT a scope, I can tell you where, within about a
6" radius, I will hit a target at 500 meters. IOW, I could hit you in the
head at 500 meters. Of course, I am firing from the prone position.
(lieing down), with the sling wrapped around my arm tight enough to cause
blood loss :) And, these are non combat conditions. But, at 100 meters,
I bet you I could do a lot better, even with bullets flying about... In
fact, I know I could do better because I have fired in combat conditions,
where people were firing back. And, I've had VERY little of that kind of
experience. I would imagine a shadowrunner would have quite a bit more of
that experience than me.

Oh, and one other thing...I wear glasses, but I don't use them when I
shoot. At 500 meters, the target, to me, looks like a small white square,
with a black dot in the middle. Up close, that same target is about 6 feet
high; the black dot in the middle is about body shaped, with the head up
top, and maybe 5 feet high. And I can stiil reasonably accurately place my
shots, without truly seeing the target all that well.

Shooting is easier than most people make it out to be.

Dave
Message no. 5
From: Ed equine@***********.com
Subject: Line Of Sight
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:48:52 -0600
At 11:25 AM 3/9/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Shooting is easier than most people make it out to be.

A gun is one thing but as my first email stated this player is using a bow.
I guess an expert bowman could place a shot far away just as well as an
expert marksman.

Should I take into comsideration the time of time...weather...etc? I would
think if it was dark outside one would have a much harder time spotting
someone 180 meters away.

Ed

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Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
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Message no. 6
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Line Of Sight
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:46:55 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Ed wrote:

> I am still wondering how LOS works for shooting things. Just because I can
> make something out does not mean I can Call A Shot on it. Then again with
> the SR rules I guess you can.

In addition to Dave Post's excellent response, I'd just like to
point out that if you can see it, in most cases you can shoot it with a
rifle out to a range of over 800 meters (provided you're steady enough
and have a good enough aim). Bullets tend to have very flat trajectories
for a good long way out, so the vertical rise or drop is pretty small over
the distance you're most likely to be shooting (100-300 meters).
In that sense, you can call a shot at anything you can see. Keep
in mind that in SR there are cover modifiers (for both the shooter and the
target), movement and visiblity modifiers, wound modifiers, recoil
modifiers, and any other situational mods the GM sees fit to give you, as
well as mods for range. The target number to hit something quite often
rises pretty high (10+). As such, you typically don't have the time to
risk calling a shot (and thus tacking on another modifier), and tend to
spend any aiming actions on just lowering the target number so you can hit
in the first place.
This falls pretty much in line with real-world analogs, with
people shooting more or less for the target's center-of-mass and hoping
for the best.
So go ahead and use the called shot rules. They work pretty well
and avoid unnecessary complication.

Marc
Message no. 7
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Line Of Sight
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:47:46 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 9 Mar 1999, Ed wrote:

> Should I take into comsideration the time of time...weather...etc? I would
> think if it was dark outside one would have a much harder time spotting
> someone 180 meters away.

That's what visibility and cover modifiers are for. :)

Marc
Message no. 8
From: Ed equine@***********.com
Subject: Line Of Sight
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:20:49 -0600
At 02:47 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
> That's what visibility and cover modifiers are for. :)

Duh...I have been looking in the other sections of the book when all I
needed to do was look at the combat section under ranged attack modifiers.
Thanks.

Ed
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Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
The Hunger Page: http://www.the-hunger.com/index.html
Personal Page: http://www.terravirtua.com/ed/index.html
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Message no. 9
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Line Of Sight
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:10:25 +0100
According to Ed, at 13:21 on 9 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> I am still wondering how LOS works for shooting things. Just because I can
> make something out does not mean I can Call A Shot on it. Then again with
> the SR rules I guess you can.

I'd say you can call a shot if you can make out individual features of the
target -- if you can distinguish the arm or head from the rest of the
body, you ccan call a shot at it if you want to. If you can't, you can't,
and have to shoot at "the target" as a whole rather than at a specific
part of it.

--
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Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 10
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Line Of Sight
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 06:36:37 -0600
On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:10:25 +0100 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
>According to Ed, at 13:21 on 9 Mar 99, the word on
>the street was...
>> I am still wondering how LOS works for shooting things. Just because
I can
>> make something out does not mean I can Call A Shot on it. Then again
with
>> the SR rules I guess you can.

>I'd say you can call a shot if you can make out individual features of
the
>target -- if you can distinguish the arm or head from the rest of the
>body, you ccan call a shot at it if you want to. If you can't, you
can't,
>and have to shoot at "the target" as a whole rather than at a specific
>part of it.

What about altering the Called Shots mod from +4 to:
+3 at Short Range
+4 at Medium Range
+5 at Long Range and
+6 at Extreme Range

Smartlink II halves this (round up).
A base 15 T# for a called shot is ... unpleasant to say the least.
A 13 T# with Smartlink is getting better.
An 8 T# with Smartlink II makes it worth the extra 700(?) nuyen. :)

This also takes into in account handling scopes. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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