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Message no. 1
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Living Power
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:28:56 EDT
Okay folks, gotta jump in at this point and tell ya'll something. I have
-just- finished trying to do a write-up on a new (and I mean -NEW-) piece of
cyberware that Mike and I just brainstormed our way through.

Literally, no one in our games has this as yet, and it is the birth of an
entire new concept for us at least. All of the kinks are not removed as yet,
but enough of them so as to make people stand up and take notice (IMO of
course ;).

http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm

take the "TEK" link, then go to the "Implantware" page...IIRC...let me
check...okay, missed...it's "Bionetics" link from the tek page index.

Let me know what you all think. I -really- like this one. And, for a first
try, it has given a LOT of other ideas for things.

-K
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:07:10 +1000
K is the Symbol writes:
> Okay folks, gotta jump in at this point and tell ya'll something. I have
> -just- finished trying to do a write-up on a new (and I mean
> -NEW-) piece of
> cyberware that Mike and I just brainstormed our way through.
>http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm
>
>take the "TEK" link, then go to the "Implantware"
page...IIRC...let me
>check...okay, missed...it's "Bionetics" link from the tek page index.

Given the subject title, I take it your referring to the Hemoelectric Dams?

Okay, I'll bite. It's a fairly good idea, Keith. It's got a couple of flaws,
I think (the main ones being: blood is thicker than water, so the viscosity
of the liquid may cause your turbines to jam, but that's a technical issue;
and the reduced speed in the blood (because the kinetic energy is
transferred to the turbines) may cause your heart beat to accelerate to
compensate), but it's a fairly solid idea. In turns of game impact, well,
you've given a good explanation for how cyber implants are powered. I don't
know about the link to those shock thingies earlier on though. I don't see
the voltage getting that high, but I wouldn't know. However, it does look
quite cool.

(Yeah, I know... I'm meant to slam ideas, not praise them. Maybe it's
because I've got the flu? :)

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it binds
the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 3
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:29:09 EDT
In a message dated 6/23/98 11:18:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> Okay, I'll bite. It's a fairly good idea, Keith. It's got a couple of flaws,
> I think (the main ones being: blood is thicker than water, so the viscosity
> of the liquid may cause your turbines to jam, but that's a technical issue;
> and the reduced speed in the blood (because the kinetic energy is
> transferred to the turbines) may cause your heart beat to accelerate to
> compensate), but it's a fairly solid idea. In turns of game impact, well,
> you've given a good explanation for how cyber implants are powered. I don't
> know about the link to those shock thingies earlier on though. I don't see
> the voltage getting that high, but I wouldn't know. However, it does look
> quite cool.

Yeah, I was trying to figure that out as well. And if a Platelet Factory was
used, I can see things getting even worse actually. I was trying to figure
all of this out, without getting any more "detailed" than I already have.
Hell, it doesn't even include the -REALLY- twisted concept using systemware
similar to the now existing "Seiko Kinetic's" watches. Place similar, but
smaller, flywheel type constructions inside of a cyberlimb or in other parts
of the body that move regularly (arms, legs), and the generation ability is
pumping in power as an assistance method.

I was really not convinced with the "Micro-Nuclear Battery Cells", and
constantly found myself trying to figure out the better way to work on this.
Wanna hear a crazier term that is parallel to the "Hemoelectric Dam"??? How
about "Aeroelectric" and put the system paralleling the alveoli in the
lungs...then combine it with the "Extended Volume" implant. Yep, when we work
up a new bit of Implantware, we do try and consider everything.

The concept for the "Bioamps" (which have been on that page now for 7 months
with no comments yet). They are based on the "electric eel" sort of thing,
and I didn't want to argue out power ratings and damage codes, so I just said
"tazer".

> (Yeah, I know... I'm meant to slam ideas, not praise them. Maybe it's
> because I've got the flu? :)

I can accept that reason for now...just don't make any major retractions after
you are done blowing your nose (GOOD JOKE NEXX!!).

-K
Message no. 4
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:35:30 EDT
In a message dated 23/06/98 23:32:30 Central Daylight Time, Ereskanti@***.COM
writes:

> I can accept that reason for now...just don't make any major retractions
> after
> you are done blowing your nose (GOOD JOKE NEXX!!).

You realize, K, that this will result in me be flooded with questions about
said joke?

Nexx, plotting K's demise
Message no. 5
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:00:58 EDT
In a message dated 6/23/98 11:49:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time, Nexx3@***.COM
writes:

> You realize, K, that this will result in me be flooded with questions about
> said joke?
>
> Nexx, plotting K's demise
>
uh huh, did indeed :)

-K
Message no. 6
From: Wraith <wraith@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:57:05 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
>In a message dated 6/23/98 11:49:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Nexx3@***.COM
>writes:
>
>> You realize, K, that this will result in me be flooded with questions
about
>> said joke?
>>
>> Nexx, plotting K's demise
>>
>uh huh, did indeed :)


And its your own fault Nexx, for not letting us in on the joke in the first
place...<G>

Wraith
Message no. 7
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:00:30 EDT
In a message dated 24/06/98 01:58:16 Central Daylight Time,
wraith@************.COM writes:

> And its your own fault Nexx, for not letting us in on the joke in the first
> place...<G>

Well, it was slightly off-color, and posting non-SR related jokes is a no-
no... while they'd probably let me slide... I'm not going to chance it
(unless I get a lot of requests... and no orders otherwise)

Nexx
Message no. 8
From: Wraith <wraith@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 02:36:23 -0500
Anyway, back to the original post...What a weird and twisted idea :) I
agree with the posts about how the blood may clog the turbines. One
question is why does a MAD sensor get reduced target numbers? I was going
to post something about the MAD detector and the modifiers to that, but as I
got about halfway through typing the question everything kinda popped into
place. Interesting idea, but wouldn't the condition of the person also
affect the charging time?

Damn, each question that I come up with I solve when I'm typing it :)
Anyway, even with people who have different resting heart beats (50-60
compared with 80-90) would benefit. The lower heartbeats would pump faster,
meaning more spin, and the people with the higher amount of heartbeats would
have the turbines spin more, since blood pumps through them more often.

What about the other things that get carried through the bloodstream?
Cholesterol comes to mind..with everyone eating those salted Stuffer-Shack
foods, what would that do to the turbines?

Read the bio-amp devices...the only thing that came to mind when I though
about them was one of those things that a clown conceals in his hand that
gives you a shock when you shake his hand...

Wraith

BTW-Isn't a MAD detector mostly for metals and such? Or are you saying the
bio-electric field would make the metals in the cyberware stand out more?
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:42:01 +1000
Wraith writes:
> BTW-Isn't a MAD detector mostly for metals and such? Or are you
> saying the
> bio-electric field would make the metals in the cyberware stand out more?

MAD stands for Magnetic Anomaly Detector (so the second dectector is
redundant, like ATM machine). It spots anomalies in magnetic fields. These
anomalies are caused by anything that distorts magnetic fields, such as...
iron (and a couple of other magnetic elements which I can't remember off the
top of my head... I think one of them is geranium). Oh, and electric
currents.

Not to mention that you can't generate electricity in turbines without
magnets, anyway, and those magnets would definately trigger a MAD.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it binds
the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 10
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:51:50 EDT
In a message dated 6/24/98 2:37:24 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
wraith@************.COM writes:

> What about the other things that get carried through the bloodstream?
> Cholesterol comes to mind..with everyone eating those salted Stuffer-Shack
> foods, what would that do to the turbines?
>
Yeah, foreign objects also came to my mind last night as well. Cholesterol is
the tricky one for our time, but there are other concepts in mind to fight
those.

-AND- if you really wanna get psycho with the "policing force of the body",
there is always the NanoDOC(tm) that is on that page as well.

-K (who is still thinking about the quirks)
Message no. 11
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:31:15 -0400
> > What about the other things that get carried through the
> bloodstream?
> > Cholesterol comes to mind..with everyone eating those salted
> Stuffer-Shack
> > foods, what would that do to the turbines?
> >
> Yeah, foreign objects also came to my mind last night as well.
> Cholesterol is
> the tricky one for our time, but there are other concepts in mind to
> fight
> those.
>
I think everyone is thinking too large. I was assuming
the turbines were nanoturbines. As in the ones we have now only better.
We already have generators 1/5 the size of a red blood cell. I can't
really see blood thickness being an issue. Blood is 90% water and that's
all thats gonna fit into one of the turbines, the way I am thinking of
them.
The issue of added strain on the heart however seems to
be a valid point. I guess it would depend on the efficiency of the
turbines in using all the energy they get. Current turbines are GROSSLY
inefficient. Perhaps by 205X they can get 80-90% out of them and they
may not need to have a lot of turbines in there.
Message no. 12
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:35:45 -0400
At 03:31 PM 6/24/98 -0400, you wrote:

> I think everyone is thinking too large. I was assuming
>the turbines were nanoturbines. As in the ones we have now only better.
>We already have generators 1/5 the size of a red blood cell. I can't
>really see blood thickness being an issue. Blood is 90% water and that's
>all thats gonna fit into one of the turbines, the way I am thinking of
>them.

Blood may be 90% water, but blood cells are relatively large cells.

Haven't read the article, but blood thickness and blood pressure are both
going to be tremendous factors.

Thickness shouldn't vary too much, but hydration levels will alter that.
Plus, the presence of solid or semi-solid objects like cholesterol can be
problematic when present in the tiniest of capillaries.

Blood pressure can vary wildly though, from a low during sleep or
meditation to the highs of a shadowrun or simply screaming at the jerk-off
that cut you off on the freeway. These little turbines would have to
withstand blood pressure higher than 200 and lower than 100. That's a
massive range. Could tiny little turbines handle that pressure?

Were these turbines installed in veins or arteries? Huge difference. An
artery (going from the heart to the body) has big pulses of blood (gee, we
measure our pulse from arteries) so there would be higher blood pressure,
but it wouldn't be consistent. Nearly on-off (well, not quite, but the
"average" BP of 120/80 represents a drop-off of 40 points in pressure; many
people have a higher differential). BP is generally measured from the
arteries. A vein (from the body back to the heart) is typically of much
lower pressure, but is far more constant. Any interruption in blood in a
vein, since they don't have any driving force behind the blood, can halt
the blood flow causing injury or even death if in the right place. The
force of the blood in an artery can sometimes blast past similar blockages.

And what happens to blood pressure when someone is bleeding? First it goes
higher as the heart attempts to compensate for the loss of fluid. Then as
it can't compensate any further, it obviously drops. It would kind of suck
for your cyberware to lose power on you just as you are dying and may need
it most. But I suppose that would be what batteries are for, right?

In any case, the general idea is at least interesting and has some potential.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 13
From: Russ Myrick <rm33735@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:14:07 -0500
Nexx Many-Scars wrote:

> You realize, K, that this will result in me be flooded with questions about
> said joke?
>
> Nexx, plotting K's demise

What joke???? :>

Need another tissue?


ceedawg


[Somebody pass the grog, this prairie's too flat, I'm getting land sick]
Message no. 14
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:51:30 EDT
In a message dated 6/24/98 2:33:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
bryan.covington@****.COM writes:

> I think everyone is thinking too large. I was assuming
> the turbines were nanoturbines. As in the ones we have now only better.
> We already have generators 1/5 the size of a red blood cell. I can't
> really see blood thickness being an issue. Blood is 90% water and that's
> all thats gonna fit into one of the turbines, the way I am thinking of
> them.

Actually, I wasn't thinking very large at all, each "Tubular Turbine" would
have a diameter probably not any larger than a human hair is now. And they
would be in weaves around the major arteries.

> The issue of added strain on the heart however seems to
> be a valid point. I guess it would depend on the efficiency of the
> turbines in using all the energy they get. Current turbines are GROSSLY
> inefficient. Perhaps by 205X they can get 80-90% out of them and they
> may not need to have a lot of turbines in there.

Yeah, the added strain would be annoying. However, after the comments from
Rob last night, the concept of a "dual drive system" have come into my mind.
A "Hemoelectric" and "Alviolectric" combination. Some of these within
the
major arteries, some of them within the secondary air passageways of the
lungs. Hell, if you started getting into higher levels of "Cyber-symbiosis"
(where the Bioware and Cyberware are -designed- to work together), then you
could get a lot more of them.

I am also considering that physical (nuyen) cost is too low. Perhaps 4X what
is listed currently, though the cyber (essence) cost I am not really wanting
to change, as that makes things more impressive.

Other thoughts (related ones).

Considering someone to have a "Living Power" system like I've suggested, could
this add to the effective Flux (range) of headware and similar devices. As
they stand now, using the R2 rules, the radio systems in the cybertech are all
"Flux 0" (which means 250 meters IIRC). What if these systems were integrated
to this. What kind of a flux bonus for said devices do you think could be
achieved?

-K
Message no. 15
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:15:04 EDT
In a message dated 6/24/98 6:50:25 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> Blood may be 90% water, but blood cells are relatively large cells.

True, Very True.

> Haven't read the article, but blood thickness and blood pressure are both
> going to be tremendous factors.

It's not an article, its on the Hoosier Hacker House web site Erik...within
the "Tek" regions...

> Thickness shouldn't vary too much, but hydration levels will alter that.
> Plus, the presence of solid or semi-solid objects like cholesterol can be
> problematic when present in the tiniest of capillaries.

Explain just a bit what you mean by "hu9ydration levels" if you would please.
I -think- I know what you mean, but I want you to explain it to me for my
benefit.

> Blood pressure can vary wildly though, from a low during sleep or
> meditation to the highs of a shadowrun or simply screaming at the jerk-off
> that cut you off on the freeway. These little turbines would have to
> withstand blood pressure higher than 200 and lower than 100. That's a
> massive range. Could tiny little turbines handle that pressure?

Oh yeah, especially if their lining was made of a material similar to that of
the arterial walls themselves. And remember, when i mention "turbines" here,
I am not meaning "fans". I am meaning a "corkscrew mechanism through which
a
moving material passes".

> Were these turbines installed in veins or arteries? Huge difference. An
> artery (going from the heart to the body) has big pulses of blood (gee, we
> measure our pulse from arteries) so there would be higher blood pressure,
> but it wouldn't be consistent. Nearly on-off (well, not quite, but the
> "average" BP of 120/80 represents a drop-off of 40 points in pressure;
many
> people have a higher differential). BP is generally measured from the
> arteries. A vein (from the body back to the heart) is typically of much
> lower pressure, but is far more constant. Any interruption in blood in a
> vein, since they don't have any driving force behind the blood, can halt
> the blood flow causing injury or even death if in the right place. The
> force of the blood in an artery can sometimes blast past similar blockages.

I had them placed into the arterial passageways for a reason. They are
obtaining power on a more direct measure that way. I wasn't looking for
consistent power here, I was looking for gross output. Also note that the
pulse/striations of the hemoglobular flow doesn't variate on an immediate
basis as drastic as you make it out to be.

When we are at rest, the variations are lower on both the diastolic and
systolic pressure levels (gosh, I hope I got that second term right). When we
are in a state of "static activity" (such as general leisure time like going
shopping, walking in a park, or general work in an office-type environment),
the D/S is higher than at rest, but again, -both- measures are higher. And
when we are worked up for whatever reason (hard work, hard play, hard
survival), the D/S is even higher still. Yes the -total- range is fairly
large, but it doesn't go from say "110/90" to "220/160" inside of a
heartbeat.
At least, not without some -major- influencing factors (extreme threat
response or chemical alteration).

> And what happens to blood pressure when someone is bleeding? First it goes
> higher as the heart attempts to compensate for the loss of fluid. Then as
> it can't compensate any further, it obviously drops. It would kind of suck
> for your cyberware to lose power on you just as you are dying and may need
> it most. But I suppose that would be what batteries are for, right?

Yes indeed, that is what the batteries are for. I am still trying to figure
out the -real- battery life on cyberware in general. The reason for it
(partial reason), is a person is considering designing a spell that would
"drain the power out of a user's cybernetics". Sort of a "Power
Leech" as it
were. I won't say no necessarily, but I don't want to hand someone over
something so potentially overwhelming without a LOT more consideration.

Also, when the games go heavily into space again, I want to have some tech
ready that is -REALLY- cool and makes everyone think more than twice about
what they are getting themselves into. But it want it as solid as possible as
well. And with the "Living Power" concept I am working on here, we are that
much closer to "Cybersymbiosis" than we've been in a long time.

> In any case, the general idea is at least interesting and has some
potential.

Gosh Erik, is that a compliment??? ;P

-K
Message no. 16
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:42:55 +1000
K writes:
> Explain just a bit what you mean by "hu9ydration levels" if you
> would please.
> I -think- I know what you mean, but I want you to explain it to me for my
> benefit.

I'd imagine he means the percentage of water comprising the whole...

> When we are at rest, the variations are lower on both the diastolic and
> systolic pressure levels (gosh, I hope I got that second term
> right). When we
> are in a state of "static activity" (such as general leisure time
> like going
> shopping, walking in a park, or general work in an office-type
> environment),
> the D/S is higher than at rest, but again, -both- measures are
> higher. And
> when we are worked up for whatever reason (hard work, hard play, hard
> survival), the D/S is even higher still. Yes the -total- range is fairly
> large, but it doesn't go from say "110/90" to "220/160" inside of
> a heartbeat.
> At least, not without some -major- influencing factors (extreme threat
> response or chemical alteration).

OTH, Extreme threat response is what a lot of cyber is designed for. Your
turbines had better be able to take jumping from a nice quiet 80/60 to
220/160 in a few seconds, or the enemy ambushers will only need one shot,
and it won't have to hit. :)

> > In any case, the general idea is at least interesting and has some
> potential.
>
> Gosh Erik, is that a compliment??? ;P

It could be... maybe my appreciation of the idea wasn't just because of my
flu. Or do you have it too, Erik? :)

However, here's an idea for you, for the power source:
Turbines aren't particularly efficient. As someone else pointed out,
something like 80% of the energy released by the driving mechanism is NOT
converted into electricity. Chemical reactions to produce electricity, OTH,
are fairly efficient, but are not feasible on a large scale. But this isn't
a large scale.

What I'm getting at here is that your body is a huge chemical factory, and
raw ingredients are floating in your bloodstream all the time. How about a
bioware 'battery', which flushes out the reacted material into your
bloodstream (or your digestive system if you prefer), and scavenges
replacements from your bloodstream, via a filter mechanism? Your body then
handles dumping the waste and recharging yourself.

Has anyone thought of playing with this as a possibility? My experience with
organic chemistry isn't anyware near enough to determine if this is remotely
possible, but it seems to me that the concept should be feasible.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it binds
the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 17
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:17:20 EDT
In a message dated 6/25/98 1:46:42 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

<snipped the idea of using the bodies own chemstry (with some modifications)
to generate usable electrical current>

> Has anyone thought of playing with this as a possibility? My experience with
> organic chemistry isn't anyware near enough to determine if this is
remotely
> possible, but it seems to me that the concept should be feasible.
>
the only problem that I immediately foresee, is that the body would have
problems actually aligning the determinant/generated flow of current that is
NOT part of it's own natural system. especially if we had to convert things
from the AC/DC equivalents (as an example).

I have considered however something that would alter the bodies electrolytic
levels in a more direct level....

-K
Message no. 18
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:09:03 -0400
> Actually, I wasn't thinking very large at all, each "Tubular Turbine"
> would
> have a diameter probably not any larger than a human hair is now. And
> they
> would be in weaves around the major arteries.
>
Hmm...granted this was completely different than what
was described but I was thinking along the lines of little water wheels
(for lack of a better analogy). arranged edge to edge in a ring around
the artery. Or if you are good at 3d visualization...
Imagine flat, circular discs intersecting much like the
longitude lines (pole to pole) on the earth. This creates a skeletal
sphere. It is mounted into a base such that you see 1/2 the sphere
rising from the base. The axis where the discs cross is perpendicular to
the flow of blood. So each time the blood flows it hits the upper half
of a disc and pushes, and the little turbine spins. Now put those edge
to edge in a ring around the artery.


As to the fluctuations that someone mentioned when you
are sleeping or whatever, the cyber is less likely to need more power
when you are inactive. You aren't doing much with your cyber arm while
you sleep. This actually makes your pulse rate a pretty good controller
for how much power you need. If you are cutting through the sewers
running from a 9 foot rat, your blood is gonna be pumping pretty good,
and your arm will have all (if not more than all) the power it can use.
Message no. 19
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:43:46 -0400
At 02:15 AM 6/25/98 EDT, you wrote:

>> Haven't read the article, but blood thickness and blood pressure are both
>> going to be tremendous factors.
>
>It's not an article, its on the Hoosier Hacker House web site Erik...within
>the "Tek" regions...

I was using article in a more generic sense.

>> Thickness shouldn't vary too much, but hydration levels will alter that.
>> Plus, the presence of solid or semi-solid objects like cholesterol can be
>> problematic when present in the tiniest of capillaries.
>
>Explain just a bit what you mean by "hu9ydration levels" if you would
please.
>I -think- I know what you mean, but I want you to explain it to me for my
>benefit.

Well, hydration has several affects, but it essentially affects the overall
viscosity of blood. Someone that is badly dehydrated if cut, will have
somewhat thicker blood than someone that drinks a few gallons of water and
bathes several times a day. It isn't a huge affect in the real world, and
the viscosity level of your blood is really the least of your concerns if
you are that dehydrated. But this sort of thing could potentially have an
affect on the micro-turbines you're talking about.

>I had them placed into the arterial passageways for a reason. They are
>obtaining power on a more direct measure that way. I wasn't looking for
>consistent power here, I was looking for gross output. Also note that the
>pulse/striations of the hemoglobular flow doesn't variate on an immediate
>basis as drastic as you make it out to be.

Okay. And a pulse isn't that binary, but the drop between diastolic and
systolic (you got those right) is rather rapid in many cases. Check your
own pulse and you can see the sort of variation we're talking about here.
It's fairly significant, even at rest.

>survival), the D/S is even higher still. Yes the -total- range is fairly
>large, but it doesn't go from say "110/90" to "220/160" inside of
a
heartbeat.
>At least, not without some -major- influencing factors (extreme threat
>response or chemical alteration).

Well, extreme threat response would be something a shadowrunner would have
to consider, right?

Anyway, that sort of jump can easily take place within a few heartbeats.
I'll get to why in a bit.

>Yes indeed, that is what the batteries are for. I am still trying to figure
>out the -real- battery life on cyberware in general. The reason for it
>(partial reason), is a person is considering designing a spell that would
>"drain the power out of a user's cybernetics". Sort of a "Power
Leech" as it
>were. I won't say no necessarily, but I don't want to hand someone over
>something so potentially overwhelming without a LOT more consideration.

You know, I really dislike the large majority of your ideas to be honest,
but your and your whole group have a distinct talent for sideways thinking.
I don't know if you are munchkins, creative sorts, got too much time on
your hands or what.

But you folks out there have a definite talent for thinking sideways. I
know piles of software companies that would kill for engineers that can
think that way.

>> In any case, the general idea is at least interesting and has some
>potential.
>
>Gosh Erik, is that a compliment??? ;P

Well, mostly.

The general idea/concept has been bandied about before to my general
knowledge, but I don't think anyone has gone as in-depth as you have. Like
I said, the concept is worthy and I like it, at least in general. I'm not
so sure of the execution though.

Okay, many people seem to think that blood pressure is a function of heart
rate, heart pumping force, and the amount of fluid (usually blood) in the
system.

Missing a key factor. Arteries and veins are able to constrict themselves
or to expand their diameter (I can't recall if this is a function of the
arteries themselves, or of the surrounding tissues like muscle, but I think
it's inherent to the arteries themselves). So at a moments notice, the
heart not only starts beating faster and more forcefully, the arteries
constrict themselves, thereby creating much higher blood pressure very
quickly. It's part of the bodies general self-defense mechanism, but
especially to problems of fluid loss.

Now I imagine you'd have to have large sections of artery loaded with the
little turbine-fan-screwdriver thingies in order to generate sufficient
power. You probably also, in order to install those things and keep them
from breaking, have to keep the arterial walls relatively rigid. (BTW,
what's to keep cholesterol build-up on the turbines themselves? Cuts power
and causes a heart attack!). Rigid arterial walls takes away one of the
bodies big self-defense mechanism and will cause a person like this to
bleed out much faster than normal.

Wow. My vaguely remembered EMT training is paying off sort of!

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 20
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:29:44 -0400
> Well, hydration has several affects, but it essentially affects the
> overall
> viscosity of blood. Someone that is badly dehydrated if cut, will
> have
> somewhat thicker blood than someone that drinks a few gallons of water
> and
> bathes several times a day. It isn't a huge affect in the real world,
> and
> the viscosity level of your blood is really the least of your concerns
> if
> you are that dehydrated. But this sort of thing could potentially
> have an
> affect on the micro-turbines you're talking about.
>
I think by the time this becomes an issue you'll
probably be dead or unconscious at the least, making your implants of
dubious value anyway.

> Now I imagine you'd have to have large sections of artery loaded with
> the
> little turbine-fan-screwdriver thingies in order to generate
> sufficient
> power. You probably also, in order to install those things and keep
> them
> from breaking, have to keep the arterial walls relatively rigid.
> (BTW,
> what's to keep cholesterol build-up on the turbines themselves? Cuts
> power
> and causes a heart attack!). Rigid arterial walls takes away one of
> the
> bodies big self-defense mechanism and will cause a person like this to
> bleed out much faster than normal.
>
Simple solution. Don't mount them in rings (as I
suggested, not thinking of this issue) mount them in either A) lines or
B) helixes.

I am not sure and will bow to a superior medical mind
but I don't think the blood vessels constrict along their length (get
shorter). This would allow you to put the turbines in a line along one
wall of the artery. Of course this will cause turbulence in the blood
which will limit the effectiveness of all the turbines after the first.

The second option would solve the above problem and even
allow for the vessels getting shorter. Mounting the turbines in helixes
around the blood vessel. You mount one turbine at 0cm 12o'clock, second
goes at 2cm 2o'clock, then 4cm 4oclock etc. moving down the blood
vessel. This would allow each turbine to take more force from the blood
flow and allow the appropriate movements of the blood vessel. However it
would require more intense surgery. Tradeoffs tradeoffs...
Message no. 21
From: BigDaddy <bigdaddy@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:44:28 -0400
<lots of snip>
>
> I am not sure and will bow to a superior medical mind
> but I don't think the blood vessels constrict along their length (get
> shorter). This would allow you to put the turbines in a line along one
> wall of the artery. Of course this will cause turbulence in the blood
> which will limit the effectiveness of all the turbines after the first.
>
> The second option would solve the above problem and even
> allow for the vessels getting shorter. Mounting the turbines in helixes
> around the blood vessel. You mount one turbine at 0cm 12o'clock, second
> goes at 2cm 2o'clock, then 4cm 4oclock etc. moving down the blood
> vessel. This would allow each turbine to take more force from the blood
> flow and allow the appropriate movements of the blood vessel. However it
> would require more intense surgery. Tradeoffs tradeoffs...

i think i'd just rather have them nuclear powered. A lil radiation never
hurt anyone.
--
Napalm Sticks to Kidz,
BigDaddy
Message no. 22
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:44:30 -0400
At 04:29 PM 6/25/98 -0400, you wrote:

> I think by the time this becomes an issue you'll
>probably be dead or unconscious at the least, making your implants of
>dubious value anyway.

I alluded to that.

> I am not sure and will bow to a superior medical mind
>but I don't think the blood vessels constrict along their length (get
>shorter).

Um, I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought. The vessels don't get shorter.
The diameter constricts or expands. A bigger hole or a smaller hole. Not
a longer or shorter one.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 23
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:34:51 -0400
> > I am not sure and will bow to a superior medical mind
> >but I don't think the blood vessels constrict along their length (get
> >shorter).
>
> Um, I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought. The vessels don't get
> shorter.
> The diameter constricts or expands. A bigger hole or a smaller hole.
> Not
> a longer or shorter one.
>
I understood your point. This is out of context. I
wasn't sure if they ALSO changed shape lengthwise, as this would have
had an impact on my new proposals.
Since they do not change length the "Line" model will
work, although wouldn't be as effective as the "helix" model. Perhaps
the method could depend on the quality of the clinic and the grade of
the chrome.
Message no. 24
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:01:46 +1000
> i think i'd just rather have them nuclear powered. A lil radiation never
> hurt anyone.

None cares about the radiation issue with nuclear-powered cyberware. It's
just that tabletop fission and fusion doesn't exist in SR (by FASA's own
direct statements), and so I don't think battery-sized fission or fusion
does either. Ergo, cyber has an alternative powersource. The usual answer is
either long-life batteries for the more demanding cyber, and tapping into
the body's own electricity for low-power cyber (like most headware, but
excluding stuff like radio implants). K has come up with an intruiging new
possible answer (though I still like my bioware battery idea, but I'm
biased)

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it binds
the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 25
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:08:25 -0400
At 04:42 PM 6/25/98 +1000, you wrote:

>What I'm getting at here is that your body is a huge chemical factory, and
>raw ingredients are floating in your bloodstream all the time. How about a
>bioware 'battery', which flushes out the reacted material into your
>bloodstream (or your digestive system if you prefer), and scavenges
>replacements from your bloodstream, via a filter mechanism? Your body then
>handles dumping the waste and recharging yourself.
>
>Has anyone thought of playing with this as a possibility? My experience with
>organic chemistry isn't anyware near enough to determine if this is remotely
>possible, but it seems to me that the concept should be feasible.

Hrmmm...this has the potential to be another elegant solution. The body
produces a lot of enzymes and chemicals and whatnot; could some of that be
harnessed to create chemically-produced electricity?

So we've got that hemostatic dam concept that has some solid merit.

Good old fashioned batteries (my preference for most forms of cyberware,
simply because it's solid and is less invasive).

I'm not really keen on the electric eel concept, but...

And perhaps this chemical power plant.

Should be enough.

Erik J.


"Oh, the silent helicopters and the men in black fatigues? They're just my
car pool to work."
Message no. 26
From: Koenig Boldizsar <kobold@********.INEXT.HU>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:21:14 +0200
Robert Watkins wrote:
<snip>
> What I'm getting at here is that your body is a huge chemical factory, and
> raw ingredients are floating in your bloodstream all the time. How about a
> bioware 'battery', which flushes out the reacted material into your
> bloodstream (or your digestive system if you prefer), and scavenges
> replacements from your bloodstream, via a filter mechanism? Your body then
> handles dumping the waste and recharging yourself.
>
> Has anyone thought of playing with this as a possibility? My experience with
> organic chemistry isn't anyware near enough to determine if this is remotely
> possible, but it seems to me that the concept should be feasible.

This sounds like nanotechnology, doesn't it?
With similar (nano)technology huge amounts of rare materials could be
extracted
from sea water too, other than salt. There are an awful lot of things
dissolved
there I suppose, only in very low concentration.
Research in this unexplored area may promise high profits, drawing
attention of
the corps, inevitably creating situations where...well, shadowrunning
situations.
How abou this?

If someone has more specific details about what exactly is there in sea
water, such
information is welcome.

KoBold
Message no. 27
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Living Power
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:35:15 EDT
In a message dated 6/29/98 1:52:31 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
kobold@********.INEXT.HU writes:

> How abou this?
>
> If someone has more specific details about what exactly is there in sea
> water, such
> information is welcome.
>
Well let's see...

IIRC...

Gold
Flourine
Salt (types vary as do condensation rates)
Water
Waste
Pollyps
Bacterium/ae
Silver (found in trace elements)
Mercury (again, depending on where you are at)
Zinc

I can't remember all of it personally ... wow, now you know why they call it
"soup."

-K

Further Reading

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Thwap!