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Message no. 1
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:15:01 -0700
Has the relationship between Lofwyr and Dunklezian (SP?) been defined
in FASA's game world ever? Do they invite each other over for
tea and crumpets? Hate each other's guts? Ambivilant as long as
each stays on their own turf?

-Rob
Message no. 2
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:58:08 EDT
In a message dated 7/23/1998 11:15:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nesius@******.COM writes:

> Has the relationship between Lofwyr and Dunklezian (SP?) been defined
> in FASA's game world ever? Do they invite each other over for
> tea and crumpets? Hate each other's guts? Ambivilant as long as
> each stays on their own turf?
>
I think Rob I would go with the "slightly competitive ambivilance" aspect.
Especially after reading and re-reading the "Portfolia" book and literally
anything and everything that exists on both characters in the FASA universe...

-K
Message no. 3
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:13:04 -0400
On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:15:01 -0700 Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
writes:
>Has the relationship between Lofwyr and Dunklezian (SP?) been defined
>in FASA's game world ever? Do they invite each other over for
>tea and crumpets? Hate each other's guts? Ambivilant as long as
>each stays on their own turf?

Well, depending on your game's timeline, not anymore at any rate. <g>

Actually, I was kinda wondering about the same thing. How do the great
dragons interact with each other? Do some get together to plot and plan
or do they stay the hell away from each other, because they know what
manipulative bastards the big lizards are. And, being dragons
themselves, they should know.

It would seem though that with Ol' Lofwyr and the Big D, though, they
wouln't get together much unless they really, really needed to.
Everywhere I've seen Dunky portrayed he was at least acting benevolent,
and Lofwyr sees people as expendable chess pieces, more or less.
Personality conflicts.

Question for those more knowlegeable: How many of the great dragons are
there in North America? Any others 'sides Lofwyr, Dunky and Hestaby?

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
"The life of a dragon. That's the life for me!"

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Message no. 4
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:51:55 EDT
In a message dated 7/23/1998 1:15:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
steelclaw@****.COM writes:

>
> Question for those more knowlegeable: How many of the great dragons are
> there in North America? Any others 'sides Lofwyr, Dunky and Hestaby?
>
I don't know the exact total.

Let's see, Arleesh from Bottled Demon is at least part time in NA, and there
is another Feathered Serpent listed in the Denver Sourcebook that is a great.

In the Home Games here, we have a very unusual moment going on.

It has finally come, Arleesh's mating cycle has begun. As a result, there is
a massive collection of "desiring bachelor's" that are converging in the
Seattle Metroplex. Activity is way up, and the party is getting into problems
all over the place.

What we have as normally 3-4 dracoforms in Seattle at any given time has risen
to 20-30.

And, as per -OUR- translation of Lofwyr, he is -NOT- one of them. He's
staying back, getting his own little dastardly plan going.

-K
Message no. 5
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:10:28 -0700
At 14:13 7/23/98 -0400, Matt Penn wrote:
>Actually, I was kinda wondering about the same thing. How do the great
>dragons interact with each other? Do some get together to plot and plan
>or do they stay the hell away from each other, because they know what
>manipulative bastards the big lizards are. And, being dragons
>themselves, they should know.

Well, most of them will be Up To Something for the sheer pleasure of
competition. After all, you have to do *something* to impress your peers.
With only a few dozen of them on the planet, they hardly have anyone to
talk to.

Dunkelzahn and Hestaby are the only Greats with permanent lairs north of
Aztlan. Arleesh is probably in North America, but it's hard to tell.
Lofwyr lairs in Tir Tairngire, but has to be commuting to Germany on a
regular basis. Son~ador is out fighting for independance in the Yucatan.
Masaru recently moved from North America back to the Philippines. Perianwyr
seems to be pretty mobile. Sirrug *might* be in Amazonia.
See http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/GreatDragons.html for my notes.

>It would seem though that with Ol' Lofwyr and the Big D, though, they
>wouln't get together much unless they really, really needed to.
>Everywhere I've seen Dunky portrayed he was at least acting benevolent,
>and Lofwyr sees people as expendable chess pieces, more or less.
>Personality conflicts.

Actually, I've decided that Lofwyr has so many black marks on his record,
he must actually be a good guy. My take on the Big L is at
http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/npcs/Lofwyr.html . The Big L and
the Big D are *both* working for the betterment of humanity... they
just have different philosophies about how to do so...

--
%%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman
%%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 6
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:54:08 EDT
In a message dated 98-07-23 12:15:36 EDT, you write:

> Ambivilant as long as
> each stays on their own turf?
>

I think that was pretty much the way things were between them, even though
Dunky said in his will that Lofwyr should consider that he might be no more or
no less than any other being in the universe. I figure that Lofwyr may have
also had a considerable amount of respect for Dunklezahn, even though this
didn't become apparently until after the Big D died. I believe the comment was
"In the end he may have played the game better than any of us" and I'm pretty
sure that it was in DS in a comment post between the Orange Queen and the
Loremaster.

But I'm too lazy to go look it up right now....

Mgkelly
Message no. 7
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:02:48 EDT
In a message dated 7/23/98 11:15:36 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nesius@******.COM writes:

> Has the relationship between Lofwyr and Dunklezian (SP?) been defined
> in FASA's game world ever? Do they invite each other over for
> tea and crumpets? Hate each other's guts? Ambivilant as long as
> each stays on their own turf?

They probably chat with each other ... in person, not very often (especially
now that Big D is dead now) ... it's a dragon thing.

Oh, and for anyone who wants to throw this into their game ... Arleesh is
beginning to get the urge to mate soon. So a lot (30+) dragons have begun to
converge onto Seattle, and have begun to stake out territory. Aztechnology /
Aztlan have replaced their EVP / Ambassador to Seattle with a Great Feathered
Serpent named Kamalkahn. Life in Seattle is definitely very interesting right
now.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 8
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:18:12 EDT
In a message dated 7/23/98 6:15:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
slothman@*********.ORG writes:

> >Actually, I was kinda wondering about the same thing. How do the great
> >dragons interact with each other? Do some get together to plot and plan
> >or do they stay the hell away from each other, because they know what
> >manipulative bastards the big lizards are. And, being dragons
> >themselves, they should know.
>
> Well, most of them will be Up To Something for the sheer pleasure of
> competition. After all, you have to do *something* to impress your peers.
> With only a few dozen of them on the planet, they hardly have anyone to
> talk to.
>
> Dunkelzahn and Hestaby are the only Greats with permanent lairs north of
> Aztlan. Arleesh is probably in North America, but it's hard to tell.
> Lofwyr lairs in Tir Tairngire, but has to be commuting to Germany on a
> regular basis. Son~ador is out fighting for independance in the Yucatan.
> Masaru recently moved from North America back to the Philippines.
Perianwyr
> seems to be pretty mobile. Sirrug *might* be in Amazonia.
> See http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/GreatDragons.html for my notes.

Lofwyr has a lair in Tir, but his primary lair is somewhere in Germany still.
No reason to shack up permanently in an elvel land with all of his treasure to
tempt the frag out of them.

There is also the Aden ... the one who destroyed Tehran mostly after the
Awakening, he is still living on Mt. Ararat.

Alamais ... stil recovering or hiding after being injured in one of the books.

Llung is having fun with the Triads and the PPG.

Ryumyo is busy filling the Emperor of Japan's head with niceties.

Icingdeath is supposedly in the stages of getting ready to wake up here soon.

> >It would seem though that with Ol' Lofwyr and the Big D, though, they
> >wouln't get together much unless they really, really needed to.
> >Everywhere I've seen Dunky portrayed he was at least acting benevolent,
> >and Lofwyr sees people as expendable chess pieces, more or less.
> >Personality conflicts.
>
> Actually, I've decided that Lofwyr has so many black marks on his record,
> he must actually be a good guy. My take on the Big L is at
> http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/npcs/Lofwyr.html . The Big L and
> the Big D are *both* working for the betterment of humanity... they
> just have different philosophies about how to do so...

Lofwyr only works for himself ... he is a Red Dragon after all.

-Herc
-------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 9
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:03:22 -0700
At 20:18 7/23/98 EDT, Mike Bobroff wrote:
>Ryumyo is busy filling the Emperor of Japan's head with niceties.

*And* pulling strings with the Yakuza.

>Icingdeath is supposedly in the stages of getting ready to wake up here soon.

Do you mean Icewing, from ED? Kaltenstein ("Coldstone"), from the Germany
sourcebook? Or something else entirely?

>Lofwyr only works for himself ... he is a Red Dragon after all.

Where do you get the info that Lofwyr is red? I thought he was bronze.
And how does the color correlate with anything?

--
%%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman
%%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 10
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:40:59 EDT
On the entire topic of What Dragons do for fun, I pull some stuff from an old
TSR module (that I still refer to whenever I want to play a Taoist):

Remember that a dragon's breath is an excess of hot air (there's more to the
quote, but this is all of it that fits)

Not all vipers hide beneath the floorboards.

Gods and dragons look at magic like men look at hammers and axes: both as
weapons, but also as tools.

And, finally, the one that applies most applicable:

Dragons lie as a matter of course, if nothing else to keep in practice for
important matters.

What does all this mean? Well, think about living for thousands of years.
Remember the last time you were really bored, and did something slightly
dangerous just to relieve the boredom? What if all that is slightly dangerous
for you is taunting nation-states? Dragon games are the things that human
legends are made of... and who hasn't heard of the chunk of gold that Lofwyr
used to buy Saedar-Krupp, or Dunkelzahn's bid for Presidency?

Nexx
"Telling an initiate the great mysteries is like lecturing to a volcano: even
if there is an eruption, you are unsure whether it understood what was being
said or not."
Message no. 11
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 04:49:12 EDT
In a message dated 7/23/1998 8:06:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
slothman@*********.ORG writes:

> >Icingdeath is supposedly in the stages of getting ready to wake up here
soon.
>
>
> Do you mean Icewing, from ED? Kaltenstein ("Coldstone"), from the Germany
> sourcebook? Or something else entirely?

I think so yes, but I'm not sure. Mike has probably lost track of the name(s)
of things after all the chaos we've been through in the home games.

> >Lofwyr only works for himself ... he is a Red Dragon after all.
>
> Where do you get the info that Lofwyr is red? I thought he was bronze.
> And how does the color correlate with anything?

He's just being comedic...

=K
Message no. 12
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 06:49:07 EDT
In a message dated 7/23/98 8:06:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
slothman@*********.ORG writes:

> At 20:18 7/23/98 EDT, Mike Bobroff wrote:
> >Ryumyo is busy filling the Emperor of Japan's head with niceties.
>
> *And* pulling strings with the Yakuza.

Forgot about that.

> >Icingdeath is supposedly in the stages of getting ready to wake up here
> soon.
>
> Do you mean Icewing, from ED? Kaltenstein ("Coldstone"), from the Germany
> sourcebook? Or something else entirely?

Probably, Dragons change names as often as they want to.

> >Lofwyr only works for himself ... he is a Red Dragon after all.
>
> Where do you get the info that Lofwyr is red? I thought he was bronze.
> And how does the color correlate with anything?

From the Arrow of Red Dragon Slaying given to people who get into a certain
room, after which they have a personal meeting with Lofwyr himself.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 13
From: "Mark J. Steedman" <Mark@******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:27:38 +0000
Machine-gun Kelly writes

> I figure that Lofwyr may have
> also had a considerable amount of respect for Dunklezahn, even though this
> didn't become apparently until after the Big D died. I believe the comment was
> "In the end he may have played the game better than any of us" and I'm
pretty
> sure that it was in DS in a comment post between the Orange Queen and the
> Loremaster.
>
It was along the lines of those two just gave away more in two
minutes than Dunky ever did in all his inane ramblings as he shut up
an arguement between the two. The arguement in question is in Dunks
secrets i think.

No i don't think Lofwry and D vaguely shared the same idea over the
way forwards, D was nice, L out for himself, he has been noted to do
some pretty serious stuff to put those who even inadvertently hurt
his precious Sader Krupp in thier place. [to those who know the
example i mean its a spoiler so stay away from discussing
the actual example]

He's not the only one up to stuff though so don't blame him first and
he may well be simply working on another level not cruel for its own
sake. (though info to discuss this is a little scarce!)

Mark

http://www.mist77.demon.co.uk/Shadowrun
Message no. 14
From: Grahamdrew <mnemonic25@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:56:59 -0400
>Lofwyr only works for himself ... he is a Red Dragon after all.

Think you been playin too much Dungeons and Dragons trash... I don't
belive they ever said anything about Lofwyr's color. And even if they
did, there is no alignment-type system for that to logically corolate to
in Shadowrun.
Message no. 15
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 07:03:51 EDT
In a message dated 7/24/98 3:58:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mnemonic25@*********.COM writes:

> >Lofwyr only works for himself ... he is a Red Dragon after all.
>
> Think you been playin too much Dungeons and Dragons trash... I don't
> belive they ever said anything about Lofwyr's color. And even if they
> did, there is no alignment-type system for that to logically corolate to
> in Shadowrun.
>

No, but he is a greedy bastard ... and that almost fits to a "T" the
definition of a Red Dragon, as done by some heinous rpg I will not mention
(like you did) ...

-Herc
-------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 16
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 17:28:58 -0500
>>Lofwyr only works for himself ... he is a Red Dragon after all.
>
>Think you been playin too much Dungeons and Dragons trash...

As a long-time AD&D player (I've been gaming for a looooooong time, mate), I
very much resent this characterization of the game. You're entitled not to
like it, but keep the sweeping generalizations to yourself, if you would.

>I don't belive they ever said anything about Lofwyr's color.

They haven't, though most pictures I've seen that have anything to do with
S-K show a silvery-grey dragon somewhere in the pic. The seal (or banner,
or whatever) is the German flag with a silver dragon's head super-imposed on
it. It wouldn't be unreasonable to believe that Lofwyr is silvery-grey in
color.

So what? Lofwyr's evil, has tremendous magical ability, and he wants to own
it all.

>And even if they did, there is no alignment-type system for that
>to logically corolate to in Shadowrun.

Again, so what?
Message no. 17
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 18:56:44 EDT
<snipping a bunch of comments and replies to comments>
About Lofwyrs color he is pictured in Tir Tairngire looking kinda bronze-
brown.
About the red-dragon statement, I believed it to simply be because of the
Arrow of Red Dragon Slaying(as someone else mentioned also) mentioned in
Dunk's Will. This is IMO so take it for what you will (since you will anyway
:-)
Message no. 18
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:46:30 -0300
At 20:02 23/07/98 EDT, you wrote:


>\>Oh, and for anyone who wants to throw this into their game ... Arleesh is
>beginning to get the urge to mate soon. So a lot (30+) dragons have begun to
>converge onto Seattle, and have begun to stake out territory. Aztechnology /
>Aztlan have replaced their EVP / Ambassador to Seattle with a Great Feathered
>Serpent named Kamalkahn. Life in Seattle is definitely very interesting
right
>now.
>
I thought that Western dragons and Feathered Serpents were different
species, so they can't
mate... (/Draco ocidentalis/ and /Alatuserpens quetzalcoalt/). Speaking of
wich, has anyone invented the
complete classification for those awakened creatures (coming down from
Kingdom to Species...)?

Bira
Message no. 19
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Lofwyr and the Big D.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:57:45 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/98 1:57:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR writes:

> >\>Oh, and for anyone who wants to throw this into their game ... Arleesh is
> >beginning to get the urge to mate soon. So a lot (30+) dragons have begun
> to
> >converge onto Seattle, and have begun to stake out territory.
Aztechnology
> /
> >Aztlan have replaced their EVP / Ambassador to Seattle with a Great
> Feathered
> >Serpent named Kamalkahn. Life in Seattle is definitely very interesting
> right
> >now.
> >
> I thought that Western dragons and Feathered Serpents were different
> species, so they can't
> mate... (/Draco ocidentalis/ and /Alatuserpens quetzalcoalt/). Speaking of
> wich, has anyone invented the
> complete classification for those awakened creatures (coming down from
> Kingdom to Species...)?

A dragon is a dragon ... which is what I (and K) considered it ... this is the
perpeptuation of the species ... so the urge to mate is something dragons take
very seriously (and not just thinking with only one to three body parts).

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Lofwyr and the Big D., you may also be interested in:

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