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Message no. 1
From: Brett Ryan Brown <calvinoi@*******.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Logo
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 17:03:06 18000
Riddle me this, were my GIF's really worth it?
I apologize sincerely for posting them UUencoded, and now that I have
instructions as to how to put it on the teetot site (thanx to
cohort@******.connected.com!!!! Thank you verrry much, chummer.)
Also, I realize that the horn got cut off. Don't ask me how this
happened, as the original GIF looks perfect. Hopefully, it was just a
UUencode error or some crud like that, and when I post the GOOD Gif's
to the teetot site, they will turn out ok. Again, thanx for the
responses, and sorry about the little UUencode "incident" (*smirk*...I
still feel stupid.)
BTW, as for the cigar, I appreciate the thought, oh fearless leader,
and it seems a fine Cuban cigar with a bit of sarcasm is the perfect
choice.

--
_/_/_/_/ _ calvinoi@freenet.fsu.edu/calvinoi@*******.tlh.fl.us
_/ | | _ _ NOTE: All of the above
_/ __ _ | | __ __ (_) _ _ ___ (_) text put there by me
_/ / _` | | | \ V / | | | ' \ / _ \ | | is SOLELY my _own_
_/_/_/_/ \__,_| |_| \_/ |_| |_||_\ \___/ |_| worthless blather.

ALL REMEMBER: Friends Don't Let Friends do DOS!
---==> Send all flames to screwyou@****.my.ass Make love not war. :) <==---
Message no. 2
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:39:45 -0700
OK Chummers,

I feel a little silly asking this after GMing Shadowrun since the 1st
Edition hard-backs first came off the presses years ago, but it's eating
at me.

I got a mail from a guy a day or two ago stating the SR logo that I'd
always taken as a Ram's skull (for it's occultic connentations)
according to FASA publications is actually a Dragon's skull. Is this a
truism?

This is just one of those nagging little bits of trivia that picks on
your mind. Just let me know, thanx.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 3
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:21:41 -0700
Loki wrote:
> I got a mail from a guy a day or two ago stating the SR logo that I'd
> always taken as a Ram's skull (for it's occultic connentations)
> according to FASA publications is actually a Dragon's skull. Is this a
> truism?
> MeThinks we got the same e-mail..I didn't think enough of it at the time to
argue with him about it..But since you bring it up..IMHO there is no way it
could be a dragon skull...The structure is all wrong..And I just saw a skull
that looked identical to the one used in the logo..one of my kids pointed it
out to my "Hey, dad there is a Shadowrun skull." "Yea, Blade [it isn't a
typo] it sure is." It is some sort if goat type critter..unless dragons in
SR2 look a whole lot like goats..In the face anyway :) draconis goaticus??
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 4
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:31:56 -0500 (EST)
>I got a mail from a guy a day or two ago stating the SR logo that I'd
>always taken as a Ram's skull (for it's occultic connentations)
>according to FASA publications is actually a Dragon's skull. Is this a
>truism?

AFAIK, It is meant to be a dragon's skull. I never really gave it much thought.
I suppose either would work.



The Way of the Hero

In each truly heroic struggle there is a time of commitment.
A time when human energies fail, yet more is required . . . and more is given.
Few are equal to that task.
Often that effort ends in failure, for victory is not always for the brave.
But where a man might falter, these ones do not, not while life and spirit
endure.
Not until the last measure is given.
To transcend the man, become the hero.
Message no. 5
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:50:42 -0500 (EST)
>Loki wrote:
>> I got a mail from a guy a day or two ago stating the SR logo that I'd
>> always taken as a Ram's skull (for it's occultic connentations)
>> according to FASA publications is actually a Dragon's skull. Is this a
>> truism?
>> MeThinks we got the same e-mail..I didn't think enough of it at the time to
>argue with him about it..But since you bring it up..IMHO there is no way it
>could be a dragon skull...The structure is all wrong..And I just saw a skull
>that looked identical to the one used in the logo..one of my kids pointed it
>out to my "Hey, dad there is a Shadowrun skull." "Yea, Blade [it isn't
a
>typo] it sure is." It is some sort if goat type critter..unless dragons in
>SR2 look a whole lot like goats..In the face anyway :) draconis goaticus??

Take a look at some of the interior art done of dragons - ever notice the
little goatee they put on some of them? I recall an early pic of Lofwyr and
Dunkelzhan that both show this feature.
There's a reason that little beard is called a "goat-ee"
It hard to say really. It could be a ram or a dragon. I think we can all
agree that either way it's pretty cool. :-)



The Way of the Hero

In each truly heroic struggle there is a time of commitment.
A time when human energies fail, yet more is required . . . and more is given.
Few are equal to that task.
Often that effort ends in failure, for victory is not always for the brave.
But where a man might falter, these ones do not, not while life and spirit
endure.
Not until the last measure is given.
To transcend the man, become the hero.
Message no. 6
From: LiveWire <livewire@***.net>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:45:57 +0100
> I got a mail from a guy a day or two ago stating the SR logo that I'd
> always taken as a Ram's skull (for it's occultic connentations)
> according to FASA publications is actually a Dragon's skull. Is this a
> truism?

I also took this to be a Rams skull. Until I was also informed that it was
infact a Dragons skull.

Not sure how true this is though ???

Ady


--
LiveWire@***.net - Http://www.mcb.net/livewire

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Message no. 7
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:15:59 -0700
GRANITE wrote:
>
> Loki wrote:
> > I got a mail from a guy a day or two ago stating the SR logo that I'd
> > always taken as a Ram's skull (for it's occultic connentations)
> > according to FASA publications is actually a Dragon's skull. Is this a
> > truism?
> > MeThinks we got the same e-mail..I didn't think enough of it at the time to
> argue with him about it..But since you bring it up..IMHO there is no way it
> could be a dragon skull...The structure is all wrong..And I just saw a skull
> that looked identical to the one used in the logo..one of my kids pointed it
> out to my "Hey, dad there is a Shadowrun skull." "Yea, Blade [it isn't
a
> typo] it sure is." It is some sort if goat type critter..unless dragons in
> SR2 look a whole lot like goats..In the face anyway :) draconis goaticus??

Thanx, chummer.

That's what I was thinking. The structure seems all wrong for a Dragon's
make-up and as I said a Ram's or Goat's skull carries magical and
occultic symbolism with it, so it only may sense to me. I've seen a few
animal skulls here and there living in Arizona and agree with you that
what I've seen looks very similar to the one pictured.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 8
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:17:54 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> >I got a mail from a guy a day or two ago stating the SR logo that I'd
> >always taken as a Ram's skull (for it's occultic connentations)
> >according to FASA publications is actually a Dragon's skull. Is this a
> >truism?
>
> AFAIK, It is meant to be a dragon's skull. I never really gave it much thought.
> I suppose either would work.

That's how I feel. I'll take either opinion, though I personally still
hold to the Ram/Goat school because I like the magical symbolism tied
into the genre. But this guy said FASA publication said it was a dragon
and I wanted to know where, I can't find it.


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 9
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:22:48 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> >Loki wrote:
> >> I got a mail from a guy a day or two ago stating the SR logo that I'd
> >> always taken as a Ram's skull (for it's occultic connentations)
> >> according to FASA publications is actually a Dragon's skull. Is this a
> >> truism?
> >> MeThinks we got the same e-mail..I didn't think enough of it at the time to
> >argue with him about it..But since you bring it up..IMHO there is no way it
> >could be a dragon skull...The structure is all wrong..And I just saw a skull
> >that looked identical to the one used in the logo..one of my kids pointed it
> >out to my "Hey, dad there is a Shadowrun skull." "Yea, Blade [it
isn't a
> >typo] it sure is." It is some sort if goat type critter..unless dragons in
> >SR2 look a whole lot like goats..In the face anyway :) draconis goaticus??
>
> Take a look at some of the interior art done of dragons - ever notice the
> little goatee they put on some of them? I recall an early pic of Lofwyr and
> Dunkelzhan that both show this feature.
> There's a reason that little beard is called a "goat-ee"
> It hard to say really. It could be a ram or a dragon. I think we can all
> agree that either way it's pretty cool. :-)

Again I agree. I'll be satisfied with the skull either being a Ram/Goat
or Dragon. I was just told FASA items had stated a dragon and I was
wanting to know where. I know what you mean about the goatee, however I
don't remember the dragon's having huge, curved goat like horns either.

Again I agree with you though, the art/logo is great. Just this trivia
on it plays on me. ;o)

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 10
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:26:08 -0700
LiveWire wrote:
>
> > I got a mail from a guy a day or two ago stating the SR logo that I'd
> > always taken as a Ram's skull (for it's occultic connentations)
> > according to FASA publications is actually a Dragon's skull. Is this a
> > truism?
>
> I also took this to be a Rams skull. Until I was also informed that it was
> infact a Dragons skull.
>
> Not sure how true this is though ???
>
> Ady

Where'd you hear it from? Same guy, and did he actually tell you where
it was stated to be a dragon skull? I just can't find anything from FASA
written anywhere. <sigh>

Though I'll settle for either answer, I've looked it over again and it
just doesn't look like a dragon. I can't see it. Not to mention a few
others now have said they too take it for a Ram or Goat. Plus, again you
hear so much of a Ram/Goat being tied to occultic properties...and what
is hermetic magic after all?

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 11
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:34:23 -0500 (EST)
>That's how I feel. I'll take either opinion, though I personally still
>hold to the Ram/Goat school because I like the magical symbolism tied
>into the genre. But this guy said FASA publication said it was a dragon
>and I wanted to know where, I can't find it.

I'm not sure either. If I find it I'll post it.



The Way of the Hero

In each truly heroic struggle there is a time of commitment.
A time when human energies fail, yet more is required . . . and more is given.
Few are equal to that task.
Often that effort ends in failure, for victory is not always for the brave.
But where a man might falter, these ones do not, not while life and spirit
endure.
Not until the last measure is given.
To transcend the man, become the hero.
Message no. 12
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:33:40 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>
> >That's how I feel. I'll take either opinion, though I personally still
> >hold to the Ram/Goat school because I like the magical symbolism tied
> >into the genre. But this guy said FASA publication said it was a dragon
> >and I wanted to know where, I can't find it.
>
> I'm not sure either. If I find it I'll post it.

Thanx! I appreciate it.


@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 13
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:35:48 -0500
At 11:17 AM 8/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
>> >I got a mail from a guy a day or two ago stating the SR logo that I'd
>> >always taken as a Ram's skull (for it's occultic connentations)
>> >according to FASA publications is actually a Dragon's skull. Is this a
>> >truism?

>into the genre. But this guy said FASA publication said it was a dragon
>and I wanted to know where, I can't find it.

I sent the message to GRANITE, and I thought that the skull was a dragon's
skull without the jawbone. And I just checked the two messages FASAMike
sent me when we were discussing the t-shirts, all he calls it is 'the Logo'.
The slick sheet Mike sent me doesn't call it anything.

I've always refered to it as the "official Shadowrun dragon's skull/banner
logo" or the "banner logo" to distinguish it from the other logo FASA uses
(the stylized Mayan-like dragon "S" found as part of the banner logo).

The only reference that I know of a dragon's skull is from the Portfolio in
D's will. He says he has a dragon's skull and would like the whole skeleton.
-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"You guys aren't drunk. You're just stupid."
-Police Officer, Beavis & Butthead
Message no. 14
From: "John F. Lee" <jfl666@*.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:06:56 -0700 (PDT)
On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Faux Pas wrote:

>
> I've always refered to it as the "official Shadowrun dragon's skull/banner
> logo" or the "banner logo" to distinguish it from the other logo FASA
uses
> (the stylized Mayan-like dragon "S" found as part of the banner logo).

Mayan? I may have missed the boat, but I always thought that the "S", as
with the totems in the Magic Section, was fashioned after Suquamish art.
It would make sense, since the first setting coverage was of the Seattle
area.
Message no. 15
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:00:34 -0500 (EST)
>Again I agree. I'll be satisfied with the skull either being a Ram/Goat
>or Dragon. I was just told FASA items had stated a dragon and I was
>wanting to know where. I know what you mean about the goatee, however I
>don't remember the dragon's having huge, curved goat like horns either.
>
>Again I agree with you though, the art/logo is great. Just this trivia
>on it plays on me. ;o)

I'll admit I'm puzzeled by this bit of stuff and nonsense myself.
I double checked my library, and could not find a definative reference to
this artwork.
Goat/ram/dragon, whatever, it's all fine with me too. :-)



The Way of the Hero

In each truly heroic struggle there is a time of commitment.
A time when human energies fail, yet more is required . . . and more is given.
Few are equal to that task.
Often that effort ends in failure, for victory is not always for the brave.
But where a man might falter, these ones do not, not while life and spirit
endure.
Not until the last measure is given.
To transcend the man, become the hero.
Message no. 16
From: Marc Lipshitz <MLIPSHIT@****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Logo -Reply
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 08:10:43 +0200
>>> Loki <loki@*******.com> 27/August/1996 08:22pm >>>
Again I agree. I'll be satisfied with the skull either being a Ram/Goat or
Dragon. I was just told FASA items had stated a dragon and I was
wanting to know where. I know what you mean about the goatee,
however I don't remember the dragon's having huge, curved goat like
horns either.
*************************************

Hmm, maybe this is a bit of retrospective enhancement. FASA might have
decided to call it a dragon skull BECAUSE of the occult significance of the
ram skull. They might have decided for PR purposes that they didn't want
to give anyone fuel to label the game satanic, something people tend to do
if any hint of the actual occult can be seen anywhere in the game.

Just my R2 worths ( With the foreign exchange rate as bad as it is 2c
would be wothless) :)
Marc Lipshitz
Message no. 17
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 13:45:19 +0100
Faux Pas said on 16:35/27 Aug 96...

> I've always refered to it as the "official Shadowrun dragon's skull/banner
> logo" or the "banner logo" to distinguish it from the other logo FASA
uses
> (the stylized Mayan-like dragon "S" found as part of the banner logo).

I call it the ramskull logo, and most people I've heard refer to it, did
so by the same name... It always looked a lot like a ram's skull to me,
not a dragon.

> The only reference that I know of a dragon's skull is from the Portfolio in
> D's will. He says he has a dragon's skull and would like the whole skeleton.

I think that's not exactly conclusive proof that the logo is a dragon's
skull :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Boing.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:38:14 +0000
On 27 Aug 96 at 11:26, Loki wrote:
[SNIP]
> ...and what
> is hermetic magic after all?
Schamanism with the Totem "Algebra", "Geometry" and the like. I am
sure! :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 19
From: Faux Pas <fauxpas@******.net>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 20:17:14 -0500
At 04:06 PM 8/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
>> (the stylized Mayan-like dragon "S" found as part of the banner logo).
>
>Mayan? I may have missed the boat, but I always thought that the "S", as
>with the totems in the Magic Section, was fashioned after Suquamish art.
>It would make sense, since the first setting coverage was of the Seattle
>area.

I wasn't certain of the art style. I thought it was something like Mayan or
Oltec - after all, Shadowrun's magic cycle is based off of the Mayan
calendar. But now that you mention it, that artistic sytle does look like
some Native American artwork I've seen before.

-Thomas Deeny
the Cartoonist at large is on the web at www2.cy-net.net/~fauxpas

"You guys aren't drunk. You're just stupid."
-Police Officer, Beavis & Butthead
Message no. 20
From: Dvixen Vidi Vici <dvixen@****.spydernet.com>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 20:43:50 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Faux Pas wrote:

> At 04:06 PM 8/27/96 -0700, you wrote:
> >> (the stylized Mayan-like dragon "S" found as part of the banner
logo).
> >
> >Mayan? I may have missed the boat, but I always thought that the "S",
as
> >with the totems in the Magic Section, was fashioned after Suquamish art.
> >It would make sense, since the first setting coverage was of the Seattle
> >area.

I'd have to agree that the art of the 'S' (and such similars in the book)
is Squamish art. From what I have seen of Mayan style artwork, I'd say
there are distinct differences that identify it as not Mayan. But at the
same time, if it is Squamish style artwork, it is a modern interprtation
of it.


--
AJ Schaafsma Dvixen@****.spydernet.com
This post absolutely reflects the opinions of the myriad voices in my head.

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Message no. 21
From: lobo1@****.com (John E Pederson)
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 15:31:36 PST
On Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:06:56 -0700 (PDT) "John F. Lee"
<jfl666@*.washington.edu> writes:
>
>On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, Faux Pas wrote:
>
>>
>> I've always refered to it as the "official Shadowrun dragon's
>skull/banner
>> logo" or the "banner logo" to distinguish it from the other logo
>FASA uses
>> (the stylized Mayan-like dragon "S" found as part of the banner
>logo).

>Mayan? I may have missed the boat, but I always thought that the "S",
as
>with the totems in the Magic Section, was fashioned after Suquamish art.
>It would make sense, since the first setting coverage was of the Seattle
>area.

I always thought it was a stylized sort of Raven-not a dragon. Maybe it's just me...Oh,
and I also assumed the skull was a ram or goat or
something like it.

John Pederson, lobo1@****.com
Message no. 22
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:25:11 -0700
Let me say first of all this is probably a question better put to the
DLoH..After all who should know better what is supposed to be
represented...All else I put forth here is IMHO..

Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> Take a look at some of the interior art done of dragons - ever notice the
> little goatee they put on some of them? I recall an early pic of Lofwyr and
> Dunkelzhan that both show this feature.

I did as you sugested..

> There's a reason that little beard is called a "goat-ee"
> It hard to say really. It could be a ram or a dragon. I think we can all
> agree that either way it's pretty cool. :-)
>

I Still say that the structure is all wrong..especially when compaired with
the different dragon creatures depicted in the creature section color plate
of SR2..All of these creatures have long 'broad' snouts..They all also have
many ridges and spikes and teeth that are not accounted for in the curled
horned skull on the cover..Also none of the creatures depicted have either
horns or spikes that look anything like the ones on the skull..And I also
have to point out that I know lots of guys who have a goatee..Most smell like
goats but I would have to insist that none truely share a common ancester
this side of the lizard fish that first decided it was too wet in the water..
If you use the ilistrations as a guide in the SR2 main book the skull should
be longer and more eavenly broad all the way to the nasal openings and
past..There should be ridges and bumps as well as straight or curved horns
and spikes..Not curled..Curled hornd are usually on animals that butt heads
for one reason or another..A long neck is not conducive to this sort of
behavior..And some sharp conical teeth should be represented...
========================================
Loki wrote:
> Thanx, chummer.
>

No Problemo..

> ......I said a Ram's or Goat's skull carries magical and
> occultic symbolism with it,......

Well I won't even get started on this subject..I know better than that..
I did want to ask..Have you become Loki "The Agreeable" ???? It seems you
agreed with everybody on both sides of the conversation??? I don't remember
Loki being this amiable a couple of years ago... :)
===============================================
FauxPas
> I sent the message to GRANITE, and I thought that the skull was a dragon's
> skull without the jawbone.

Yea..And I didn't think it was that big of a deal..So I didn't say
anything..I think it was Loki that got it stuck in his craw..But then what
else is this list for???
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 23
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:27:49 -0700
Let me say first of all this is probably a question better put to the
DLoH..After all who should know better what is supposed to be
represented...All else I put forth here is IMHO..

Steven A. Tinner wrote:
> Take a look at some of the interior art done of dragons - ever notice the
> little goatee they put on some of them? I recall an early pic of Lofwyr and
> Dunkelzhan that both show this feature.

I did as you sugested..

> There's a reason that little beard is called a "goat-ee"
> It hard to say really. It could be a ram or a dragon. I think we can all
> agree that either way it's pretty cool. :-)
>

I Still say that the structure is all wrong..especially when compaired with
the different dragon creatures depicted in the creature section color plate
of SR2..All of these creatures have long 'broad' snouts..They all also have
many ridges and spikes and teeth that are not accounted for in the curled
horned skull on the cover..Also none of the creatures depicted have either
horns or spikes that look anything like the ones on the skull..And I also
have to point out that I know lots of guys who have a goatee..Most smell like
goats but I would have to insist that none truely share a common ancester
this side of the lizard fish that first decided it was too wet in the water..
If you use the ilistrations as a guide in the SR2 main book the skull should
be longer and more eavenly broad all the way to the nasal openings and
past..There should be ridges and bumps as well as straight or curved horns
and spikes..Not curled..Curled hornd are usually on animals that butt heads
for one reason or another..A long neck is not conducive to this sort of
behavior..And some sharp conical teeth should be represented...
========================================
Loki wrote:
> Thanx, chummer.
>

No Problemo..

> ......I said a Ram's or Goat's skull carries magical and
> occultic symbolism with it,......

Well I won't even get started on this subject..I know better than that..
I did want to ask..Have you become Loki "The Agreeable" ???? It seems you
agreed with everybody on both sides of the conversation??? I don't remember
Loki being this amiable a couple of years ago... :)
===============================================
FauxPas
> I sent the message to GRANITE, and I thought that the skull was a dragon's
> skull without the jawbone.

Yea..And I didn't think it was that big of a deal..So I didn't say
anything..I think it was Loki that got it stuck in his craw..But then what
else is this list for???
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 24
From: Loki <loki@*******.com>
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 23:12:26 -0700
GRANITE wrote:
>
> No Problemo..
>
> > ......I said a Ram's or Goat's skull carries magical and
> > occultic symbolism with it,......
>
> Well I won't even get started on this subject..I know better than that..
> I did want to ask..Have you become Loki "The Agreeable" ???? It seems you
> agreed with everybody on both sides of the conversation??? I don't remember
> Loki being this amiable a couple of years ago... :)

I wouldn't say I agreed with everyone on either side of the coin. All
along I've been saying I take it for a goat/ram skull. However even in
my first posting I did say I wouldn take either opinion, I was just
looking for the proof of a Dragon's Skull the guy who'd first jumped on
me said I shouldn've seen if I'd read "any FASA publications". I still
hold to it being a Ram's Head...and if you check out my page, you'd see
it thus. ;o)

Loki the agreeable...nah! Loki the accepting...mmmmm maybe. Loki the
vindicated...well with the Ram/Goat getting five votes, and the dragon
skull getting what I count as one and a half...I'd say yes. :oP

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


Poisoned Elves http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
Message no. 25
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Logo
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:59:08 -0500 (EST)
>Steven A. Tinner wrote:
>> Take a look at some of the interior art done of dragons - ever notice the
>> little goatee they put on some of them? I recall an early pic of Lofwyr and
>> Dunkelzhan that both show this feature.
>
>I did as you sugested..
>
>> There's a reason that little beard is called a "goat-ee"
>> It hard to say really. It could be a ram or a dragon. I think we can all
>> agree that either way it's pretty cool. :-)
>>
>
>I Still say that the structure is all wrong..especially when compaired with
>the different dragon creatures depicted in the creature section color plate
>of SR2..All of these creatures have long 'broad' snouts..They all also have
>many ridges and spikes and teeth that are not accounted for in the curled
>horned skull on the cover..Also none of the creatures depicted have either
>horns or spikes that look anything like the ones on the skull..And I also
>have to point out that I know lots of guys who have a goatee..Most smell like
>goats but I would have to insist that none truely share a common ancester
>this side of the lizard fish that first decided it was too wet in the water..
>If you use the ilistrations as a guide in the SR2 main book the skull should
>be longer and more eavenly broad all the way to the nasal openings and
>past..There should be ridges and bumps as well as straight or curved horns
>and spikes..Not curled..Curled hornd are usually on animals that butt heads
>for one reason or another..A long neck is not conducive to this sort of
>behavior..And some sharp conical teeth should be represented...

I see where you're coming from.
My final opinion is that I just plain don't know.
The head seems too long for a sheep skull. Even cattle skulls are not quite
that long in most cases.
As far as it not resembling the shape of many dragons pictured in SR
artwork, I just assumed that each dragon's skull would be quite different.
Also, how old is this skull?
It appears bleached, weathered, and possibly even fossilized!
Could be around from the Fourth World for all we know.
I really don't care what it is, and won't lose any sleep over it either way.
Bottom line?
It's a cool graphic that does its job - It readily identifies SR products to
those shopping for them in the stores! <sarcastic grin> :-)



Card Carrying Member

The
**HOLLYWOOD**
"Never Empty Six-Gun"
School of Game Mastering

"Put on a good show and fate will smile upon you. Be boring, and you're dead!"

Further Reading

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Thwap!